I don't see the point of your complaint. If you can build that "overpowered" tank without any HAV skills, then everybody can. Where's the problem? I don't see a major imbalance here.
Or are you seriously suggesting that militia tanks are overpowered compared to their high end counterparts, without ever having seen one of them from the inside?

it does add a ton of difficulty to try to get it down.

i have 3 hardeners on my tank giving my 6k armor tank giving it around 10k armor with a 800 effective rep.

blasting forge gunners and other nonsense is quit simple, just have to keep my head and know where my tank is and what turrets are out there.

a turret can wreck my day if i am not in some form of cover.

Lol please drop that tank in against me, its possible to get 20,000+ ehp on a Surya, ask team aldin.

This is why dropships need to have the open door mechanic finished. Right now they can open and close doors, but the future idea is to lets players keep shooting from the dropship. Turrets have a hard time pointing up and forge guns have great range with a height advantage. Not to mention the rain of AV gernades tat will come.

Tanks should kick ass, but there should always be a counter. It just requires skill investment and teamwork. And also for CCP to finish the game :P

Plus we are getting a new anti shield AV weapon with te arc launcher. S swarms for armor tanks and Arc for shields. Forgeguns are more of an AV sniping weapon. They can drop massive damage when far away and above the target.

The arc will on the other hand be aclose range only skill shot weapon with an arc to it's fire. 4 of them might tear a shield tanking tank apart. Finish it up with Pack AV in the back where it's weak point is, KA BOOM

ONly issue I see with tanks si they are TOO FAST. I can see cureeny tank top speed and acceleration before more minmatar level but we need some balance here.

Cadari should have lowest accelration but highest top speed. Strongest shield tank.

Minmatar should have 2nd best top speed *current tank speed* with current level accelration.

Ammar should be slow topspeed, but the highest acelleration.As a result, highest armor in the game to last in a firefight, but too slow to move out of danger or to another objective quickly.

Gallente should have 3rd best speed low accelration, but as armor tanks they shouldn't be moving faster than a fully buffed spped scout suit. UNless you fit speed mods or an after burner of crouse. But then the tank will have moments where it's on cool down and be cuaght up to. It should have the side turrets be player controlled fighter drones. *a man can dream*

Are you aware that YOU can make a Soma Super Tank (militia armor tank for those non-tankers out there) with 2978 shields, 5235 armor, a 10% militia armor damage reduction mod, 2 armor reppers and a 9% shield/armor damage reducing active module using only the skills needed to improve your dropsuits armor and shield modules to advanced level, building your passive dropsuit health skills, and increasing your CPU/PG to lvl 4?

Lol please drop that tank in against me, its possible to get 20,000+ ehp on a Surya, ask team aldin.

You have a few points, but its not as bad as you make it out to be.

Most squads can take out a tank like easy, forge gunner+swarms+flux+AV+me in a free LAV ramming into a HAV can take out a tank quite quickly.

Also, i believe its more about whoever is operating the tank and how skilled they are as a driver. I can outfit a tank too...problem is I suck as a driver and will get blown up quick.

Lol please drop that tank in against me, its possible to get 20,000+ ehp on a Surya, ask team aldin.

ROFL LOL !!!!! Awwwww man nice troll nice troll ROFL ! LOL !!!!!!

As others have stated above.

I popped a Gunlogi by myself with my fat suit and my favorite Forge Gun.

Driver thought he could run. He couldn't run far enough because I had situational advantage denying the driver from getting Repped before my mods and skills allowed the Forge Gun to give me +150, +50, +50 and I wish they have found one more Gunner to finish out my set.

That was work.

Your setup? Not so much.

You have forgotten the two basic Rules in RPGs. Skills and Mods (whatever the game calls them) changes everything.

Weaponry lvl 5 +10% damage to all hand held weapons.

Forge Gun Ops, reduces charge time.
Heavy Weapon Sharpshooter adds range.
Heavy Weapon Reload makes Forge Gun reloads reasonable.

10% Damage mod.

Assault Forge Gun, 1200 + 120 + 120, four rounds = 5760.
Breach Forge Gun, 2100 + 210 + 210, four rounds = 10080.

Neither of these are Advanced weapons. Do the math on Advanced and Proto Forge Guns then look at your Single Clip Death Trap with fresh eyes.

Add some friendly Blue helpers with a Flux Grenade and what little shields the Soma had are gone. Instantly.
Sica and Flux? Serious troubles ahead.
Or a Blue with AV grenades and a HIV gets me 50% of the kills but you are still very much dead.
Same for Swarmers and I haven't even skilled into Swarm Launchers as yet.

Until you drive a tank, do not assume that tweaking a spreadsheet will win either an encounter nor a battle. Interesting and entertaining though the numbers are.

Are those of you with inflated egos done bragging yet? This isn't about you.

The point isn't that this fit is OP vs people who spec for dealing with this, the point is that it's OP because anyone can build it for general pub matches against regular, low level noobs who know nothing about taking out tanks.

It's bad enough that Zitro, Zdawwg, and all of the other big tankers are so afraid of getting a scratch on their precious K/D that they feel they need to pull out the best possible tank they can every match they go into against complete noobs (which is, quite honestly, very pathetic, especially since the majority of them aren't even out of militia gear yet), but the fact that anyone who has basic dropsuit skills can build a halfway decent tank without any skills into tanks, and drop it into a match filled with complete noobs, is just plain stupid.

This isn't a complaint about my tank being too strong for AV players or other tankers, it's a complaint that people who don't put in the effort to build tank skills can still easily wipe the floor in the average pub match with a tank that cost them no SP investment and very little ISK.

And as for the 2 light reppers, it's more than enough when you only have ~5k armor and around 3K shields plus a shield booster to buffer your armor from explosive damage. I don't really do tanks, but even with my poor tanking skills I've dropped 5 gunloggis with it so far, so it's not quite as bad as you guys seem pointedly want to make it out to be.

Edit: This isn't closed beta anymore, people will be flooding in from now on. That means things need to be balanced for the new players as well as those already specced well enough to deal with a tank like this.

lol, keep building on each others posts instead of responding to my responses to them. Does nothing but show you have no counter argument. Once someone with a valid counter argument comes in, I'll be happy to debate the issue. Until then, I'll just kick back and watch you floundering for insults instead of using your head.

For the last time, this isn't about your skill investments, it's about how easily someone can put a semi decent tank into a pub match full of noobs with little SP investment at all.

Are you aware that YOU can make a Soma Super Tank (militia armor tank for those non-tankers out there) with 2978 shields, 5235 armor, a 10% militia armor damage reduction mod, 2 armor reppers and a 9% shield/armor damage reducing active module using only the skills needed to improve your dropsuits armor and shield modules to advanced level, building your passive dropsuit health skills, and increasing your CPU/PG to lvl 4?

I can also get 8837 EHP (3765 shield, 5235 armor) if I strictly go for max health, or I can cut down one shield mod and go with two armor reppers and one shield repper and have 3012 shields plus a light shield repper, and 5235 armor with two light armor reppers.

ALL of this on just a militia tank.

Thats far, FAR too much for a militia tank. And I've not specced for tanks one bit, I spec LAV's. I have small blaster turret skills at lvl 2, so I can fit small blasters slightly better than the next guy, and I now have powergrid upgrades to lvl 1, so I can use a basic power diagnostic system instead of the militia one. Apart from that, I have no advantages for fitting a tank that anyone else building strictly dropsuits wouldn't have.

All I do is tinker with tanks, I don't care for driving them. I build them up, test them out, and pass on my designs to interested parties. I look at the PG/CPU of an advanced tank, and I just imagine how much I could do with a REAL tank.

You shouldn't be able to fit this many high end modules on a low end tank, and you shouldn't be able to fit as much on an advanced tank as you can either. High end tanks? Fit whatever you want, but the lower end tanks need to have their PG/CPU reduced. SERIOUSLY reduced. It shouldn't be this easy to pimp out a tank with no skills in tank stuff.

Also, the lower end mods for vehicles need to be nerfed and cost less PG/CPU to equip. The bottom bracket mods for heavy or light extenders/plates shouldn't be almost as strong as the high end ones, but they also shouldn't cost almost the same PG/CPU. For example:

The current difference between 120mm armor mods-

Steel
1360 HP
20 CPU
580 PG

Nanofibre
1224 HP
12 CPU
464 PG

Polycrystalline
1564 HP
19 PG
551 CPU

There is a range here of about 300 HP from the lowest to highest. Basically, I think the top level mods and mid level mods should remain the same, but the bottom level mods need to be lower in HP and PG/CPU costs than the mid level mods, closer to the next mods down on the food chain. In this case the closest level plate to the nanofibre (which, since it's the lowest HP plate) according to HP & fitting requirements is the 60mm polycrystalline plate, which has 782 HP. The lowest tier 120mm plate needs to be around 900ish HP, a step up from the polycrystalline 60mm, and have lower fitting requirements to fit it's drop in HP.

Please drop the CPU/PG in this way and tier the mods correctly.



Note: And if you ever want to chat about how to make a militia super tank, hit me up. I love toying with fittings.

This is why dropships need to have the open door mechanic finished. Right now they can open and close doors, but the future idea is to lets players keep shooting from the dropship. Turrets have a hard time pointing up and forge guns have great range with a height advantage. Not to mention the rain of AV gernades tat will come.

Tanks should kick ass, but there should always be a counter. It just requires skill investment and teamwork. And also for CCP to finish the game :P

Plus we are getting a new anti shield AV weapon with te arc launcher. S swarms for armor tanks and Arc for shields. Forgeguns are more of an AV sniping weapon. They can drop massive damage when far away and above the target.

The arc will on the other hand be aclose range only skill shot weapon with an arc to it's fire. 4 of them might tear a shield tanking tank apart. Finish it up with Pack AV in the back where it's weak point is, KA BOOM

ONly issue I see with tanks si they are TOO FAST. I can see cureeny tank top speed and acceleration before more minmatar level but we need some balance here.

Cadari should have lowest accelration but highest top speed. Strongest shield tank.

Minmatar should have 2nd best top speed *current tank speed* with current level accelration.

Ammar should be slow topspeed, but the highest acelleration.As a result, highest armor in the game to last in a firefight, but too slow to move out of danger or to another objective quickly.

Gallente should have 3rd best speed low accelration, but as armor tanks they shouldn't be moving faster than a fully buffed spped scout suit. UNless you fit speed mods or an after burner of crouse. But then the tank will have moments where it's on cool down and be cuaght up to. It should have the side turrets be player controlled fighter drones. *a man can dream*

Uhm sir AFAIK gallente has the highest top speed but low acceleration , Caldari has high Acceleration with decent top speed

This thread makes me happy. I hope more people read this and decide to use tanks. Tanks are highly underutilized in this game. They are expensive and should be crazy strong. However a squad using teamwork will always be able to take out a tank. I frankly cannot keep up with the money required to use tanks. I gotta get me a tank build.

Once someone with a valid counter argument comes in, I'll be happy to debate the issue.

If you can build that "overpowered" tank without any HAV skills, then everybody can. Where's the problem

This isn't a complaint about my tank being too strong for AV players or other tankers, it's a complaint that people who don't put in the effort to build tank skills can still easily wipe the floor in the average pub match with a tank that cost them no SP investment and very little ISK.

If you complain that it is OP because you owned in pub match and nobody bother taking you out.
Then, this is not about any specific weapon/skill/build balance.
This is about learning cliff and vet vs newberries issue, aka match making.

the fact that anyone who has basic dropsuit skills can build a halfway decent tank without any skills into tanks, and drop it into a match [...] is just plain stupid.

Well, several people, including myself, already did so, and we're still waiting for your response to these simple points brought up:

If you can build that "overpowered" tank without any HAV skills, then everybody can. Where's the problem

If you complain that it is OP because you owned in pub match and nobody bother taking you out.
Then, this is not about any specific weapon/skill/build balance.
This is about learning cliff and vet vs newberries issue, aka match making.

This is exactly the point of militia gear. Note the difference between "halfway decent" and "advanced/prototype".

This is why dropships need to have the open door mechanic finished. Right now they can open and close doors, but the future idea is to lets players keep shooting from the dropship. Turrets have a hard time pointing up and forge guns have great range with a height advantage. Not to mention the rain of AV gernades tat will come.

Tanks should kick ass, but there should always be a counter. It just requires skill investment and teamwork. And also for CCP to finish the game :P

Plus we are getting a new anti shield AV weapon with te arc launcher. S swarms for armor tanks and Arc for shields. Forgeguns are more of an AV sniping weapon. They can drop massive damage when far away and above the target.

The arc will on the other hand be aclose range only skill shot weapon with an arc to it's fire. 4 of them might tear a shield tanking tank apart. Finish it up with Pack AV in the back where it's weak point is, KA BOOM

ONly issue I see with tanks si they are TOO FAST. I can see cureeny tank top speed and acceleration before more minmatar level but we need some balance here.

Cadari should have lowest accelration but highest top speed. Strongest shield tank.

Minmatar should have 2nd best top speed *current tank speed* with current level accelration.

Ammar should be slow topspeed, but the highest acelleration.As a result, highest armor in the game to last in a firefight, but too slow to move out of danger or to another objective quickly.

Gallente should have 3rd best speed low accelration, but as armor tanks they shouldn't be moving faster than a fully buffed spped scout suit. UNless you fit speed mods or an after burner of crouse. But then the tank will have moments where it's on cool down and be cuaght up to. It should have the side turrets be player controlled fighter drones. *a man can dream*

This is why dropships need to have the open door mechanic finished. Right now they can open and close doors, but the future idea is to lets players keep shooting from the dropship. Turrets have a hard time pointing up and forge guns have great range with a height advantage. Not to mention the rain of AV gernades tat will come.

Tanks should kick ass, but there should always be a counter. It just requires skill investment and teamwork. And also for CCP to finish the game :P

Plus we are getting a new anti shield AV weapon with te arc launcher. S swarms for armor tanks and Arc for shields. Forgeguns are more of an AV sniping weapon. They can drop massive damage when far away and above the target.

The arc will on the other hand be aclose range only skill shot weapon with an arc to it's fire. 4 of them might tear a shield tanking tank apart. Finish it up with Pack AV in the back where it's weak point is, KA BOOM

ONly issue I see with tanks si they are TOO FAST. I can see cureeny tank top speed and acceleration before more minmatar level but we need some balance here.

Cadari should have lowest accelration but highest top speed. Strongest shield tank.

Minmatar should have 2nd best top speed *current tank speed* with current level accelration.

Ammar should be slow topspeed, but the highest acelleration.As a result, highest armor in the game to last in a firefight, but too slow to move out of danger or to another objective quickly.

Gallente should have 3rd best speed low accelration, but as armor tanks they shouldn't be moving faster than a fully buffed spped scout suit. UNless you fit speed mods or an after burner of crouse. But then the tank will have moments where it's on cool down and be cuaght up to. It should have the side turrets be player controlled fighter drones. *a man can dream*

It's as much a matchmaking problem as anything, but the whole point here, I say again, IS THAT YOU CAN DO THIS WITH NO TANK SP INVESTMENT TO MOP UP NOOBS WITH.

Rank of tanks
Easy 3000-8000 HP= Requires one guy
Medium 8000-12000= Requires teamwork and multiple teammates
Impossible 12000+ = Extremely hard with proto gear and multiple teammates helping

[quote=Baal Omniscient]Are you aware that YOU can make a Soma Super Tank (militia armor tank for those non-tankers out there) with 2978 shields, 5235 armor, a 10% militia armor damage reduction mod, 2 armor reppers and a 9% shield/armor damage reducing active module using only the skills needed to improve your dropsuits armor and shield modules to advanced level, building your passive dropsuit health skills, and increasing your CPU/PG to lvl 4?

I can also get 8837 EHP (3765 shield, 5235 armor) if I strictly go for max health, or I can cut down one shield mod and go with two armor reppers and one shield repper and have 3012 shields plus a light shield repper, and 5235 armor with two light armor reppers.

Are you aware that YOU can make a Soma Super Tank (militia armor tank for those non-tankers out there) with 2978 shields, 5235 armor, a 10% militia armor damage reduction mod, 2 armor reppers and a 9% shield/armor damage reducing active module using only the skills needed to improve your dropsuits armor and shield modules to advanced level, building your passive dropsuit health skills, and increasing your CPU/PG to lvl 4?

I can also get 8837 EHP (3765 shield, 5235 armor) if I strictly go for max health, or I can cut down one shield mod and go with two armor reppers and one shield repper and have 3012 shields plus a light shield repper, and 5235 armor with two light armor reppers.

ALL of this on just a militia tank.

Thats far, FAR too much for a militia tank. And I've not specced for tanks one bit, I spec LAV's. I have small blaster turret skills at lvl 2, so I can fit small blasters slightly better than the next guy, and I now have powergrid upgrades to lvl 1, so I can use a basic power diagnostic system instead of the militia one. Apart from that, I have no advantages for fitting a tank that anyone else building strictly dropsuits wouldn't have.

All I do is tinker with tanks, I don't care for driving them. I build them up, test them out, and pass on my designs to interested parties. I look at the PG/CPU of an advanced tank, and I just imagine how much I could do with a REAL tank.

You shouldn't be able to fit this many high end modules on a low end tank, and you shouldn't be able to fit as much on an advanced tank as you can either. High end tanks? Fit whatever you want, but the lower end tanks need to have their PG/CPU reduced. SERIOUSLY reduced. It shouldn't be this easy to pimp out a tank with no skills in tank stuff.

Also, the lower end mods for vehicles need to be nerfed and cost less PG/CPU to equip. The bottom bracket mods for heavy or light extenders/plates shouldn't be almost as strong as the high end ones, but they also shouldn't cost almost the same PG/CPU. For example:

The current difference between 120mm armor mods-

Steel
1360 HP
20 CPU
580 PG

Nanofibre
1224 HP
12 CPU
464 PG

Polycrystalline
1564 HP
19 PG
551 CPU

There is a range here of about 300 HP from the lowest to highest. Basically, I think the top level mods and mid level mods should remain the same, but the bottom level mods need to be lower in HP and PG/CPU costs than the mid level mods, closer to the next mods down on the food chain. In this case the closest level plate to the nanofibre (which, since it's the lowest HP plate) according to HP & fitting requirements is the 60mm polycrystalline plate, which has 782 HP. The lowest tier 120mm plate needs to be around 900ish HP, a step up from the polycrystalline 60mm, and have lower fitting requirements to fit it's drop in HP.

Please drop the CPU/PG in this way and tier the mods correctly.



Note: And if you ever want to chat about how to make a militia super tank, hit me up. I love toying with fittings.

I don't think i understand how to drop the PCG and the CPU still 0.0 so can it be more simply explained?

Ingenious.

Complain about overpowered stuff so that it gets nerfed without actually seeming to have complained about overpowered stuff which is needing a nerf because you've said you've been op and pubstomped which insinuates a sense of guilt, which means you're not to blame for the destruction because it's the item in discussion's overpowered nature that is causing you to be so great, and this leads to a consideration of the item in detail without involving your own involvement because you've negated being involved by involving yourself.

Marvellous. I'll think of this technique when I want to nerf something.

Rank of tanks
Easy 3000-8000 HP= Requires one guy
Medium 8000-12000= Requires teamwork and multiple teammates
Impossible 12000+ = Extremely hard with proto gear and multiple teammates helping