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IRuby Heart DIOS EX. 326	Posted - 2013.02.13 21:14:00 - [1] - Quote I think they're in need of a slight buff, I understand they have a huge clip and high rof but the damage is laughable. Just now got done with a game where two guys using Submachine guns jumped me from behind and started spraying my back with lead(No, Plasma?). I casually turned around and killed the first guy closest to me, reloaded, and proceeded to kill the 2nd guy. Like the beast that I am, I put on my shades, called in my LAV and drove off into the setting sun ^True story, I was using a raven suit with only a basic shield extender and they just barely got to my armor, this is a usual and quite common occurence for me. Anyone who is using a Submachine gun against me is guaranteed to get killed and I'm not even good. Personally I have the Toxin submachine gun from the mercenary pack and it's really subpar. While I don't have any skills invested in the SMG's, I find that using a scrambler pistol and Pistol operation to level 1 nets a lot more kills and is a lot more effective damage wise.......Wait, maybe this is the wrong thread, MAYBE, Scrambler pistols are OP
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1772	Posted - 2013.02.13 21:16:00 - [2] - Quote IRuby Heart wrote: I think they're in need of a slight buff, I understand they have a huge clip and high rof but the damage is laughable. Just now got done with a game where two guys using Submachine guns jumped me from behind and started spraying my back with lead(No, Plasma?). I casually turned around and killed the first guy closest to me, reloaded, and proceeded to kill the 2nd guy. Like the beast that I am, I put on my shades, called in my LAV and drove off into the setting sun ^True story, I was using a raven suit with only a basic shield extender and they just barely got to my armor. Personally I have the Toxin submachine gun from the mercenary pack and it's really subpar. While I don't have any skills invested in the SMG's, I find that using a scrambler pistol and Pistol operation to level 1 nets a lot more kills and is a lot more effective damage wise.......Wait, maybe this is the wrong thread, MAYBE, Scrambler pistols are OP If you had no shields you would of been dead for sure. SMG's just aren't any good against shields :(
IRuby Heart DIOS EX. 326	Posted - 2013.02.13 21:17:00 - [3] - Quote SoTa PoP wrote: IRuby Heart wrote: I think they're in need of a slight buff, I understand they have a huge clip and high rof but the damage is laughable. Just now got done with a game where two guys using Submachine guns jumped me from behind and started spraying my back with lead(No, Plasma?). I casually turned around and killed the first guy closest to me, reloaded, and proceeded to kill the 2nd guy. Like the beast that I am, I put on my shades, called in my LAV and drove off into the setting sun ^True story, I was using a raven suit with only a basic shield extender and they just barely got to my armor. Personally I have the Toxin submachine gun from the mercenary pack and it's really subpar. While I don't have any skills invested in the SMG's, I find that using a scrambler pistol and Pistol operation to level 1 nets a lot more kills and is a lot more effective damage wise.......Wait, maybe this is the wrong thread, MAYBE, Scrambler pistols are OP If you had no shields you would of been dead for sure. SMG's just aren't any good against shields :( Does this mean there are weapons that are more effective against shields and armor respectively? Where can I find this information?
Jotun Hiem Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 412	Posted - 2013.02.13 21:17:00 - [4] - Quote Projectile weapons like the SMG and HMG have a damage penalty to shields and a damage bonus to armor, it makes engaging with them a little tricky.
Rhuvian Marccus Deep Space Republic 25	Posted - 2013.02.13 21:27:00 - [5] - Quote IRuby Heart wrote: I think they're in need of a slight buff, I understand they have a huge clip and high rof but the damage is laughable. Just now got done with a game where two guys using Submachine guns jumped me from behind and started spraying my back with lead(No, Plasma?). I casually turned around and killed the first guy closest to me, reloaded, and proceeded to kill the 2nd guy. Like the beast that I am, I put on my shades, called in my LAV and drove off into the setting sun ^True story, I was using a raven suit with only a basic shield extender and they just barely got to my armor, this is a usual and quite common occurence for me. Anyone who is using a Submachine gun against me is guaranteed to get killed and I'm not even good. Personally I have the Toxin submachine gun from the mercenary pack and it's really subpar. While I don't have any skills invested in the SMG's, I find that using a scrambler pistol and Pistol operation to level 1 nets a lot more kills and is a lot more effective damage wise.......Wait, maybe this is the wrong thread, MAYBE, Scrambler pistols are OP I'm going to find it interesting what they do with those. I use them both as a side weapon on my main, and the main on my side () and I usually find them effective enough in both situations. ("Side" character is wifes Logi, but I can top the kill boards with her SMG). In either case there is definately a perception of them being weak. I wonder how much of this is perception/community driven, and how much is accurate.
Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 397	Posted - 2013.02.13 21:30:00 - [6] - Quote They're my main weapon these days. With sidearm sharpshooter and the weapon skill both into proficiency, I can go toe to toe with GEKs at up to midrange. Plus, I get to carry a cheap sniper or laser for long range backup if I get caught out in the open or too far from the action. Just don't expect to do diddly squat against Type-II HMG Heavies, or diddly squat to anyone if you don't have the passive skills.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.02.13 21:35:00 - [7] - Quote The trade off is that SMGs have extremely low CPU/PG requirements and only take up a sidearm slot. There's no need to buff them, because they are a low powered, low cost weapon. If you want more damage, use a bigger gun. The two alternatives are basically: Make them closer to an AR in damage without increasing CPU/PG, at which point... why use the AR? OR Make them closer to an AR in damage and increase their CPU/PG, at which point... why use the SMG?
IRuby Heart DIOS EX. 326	Posted - 2013.02.13 21:36:00 - [8] - Quote Knarf Black wrote: They're my main weapon these days. With sidearm sharpshooter and the weapon skill both into proficiency, I can go toe to toe with GEKs at up to midrange. Plus, I get to carry a cheap sniper or laser for long range backup if I get caught out in the open or too far from the action. Just don't expect to do diddly squat against Type-II HMG Heavies, or diddly squat to anyone if you don't have the passive skills. That's pretty impressive, maybe it's one of those weapons that only shows it's true prowess after you've taken the time to skill in them. But when you have every other weapon aside form sniper rifles being very easy to use and effective from the get go, it really makes SMG's get looked over and underutilized. Also you bring up another flaw of SMG's, the terrible range
IRuby Heart DIOS EX. 326	Posted - 2013.02.13 21:36:00 - [9] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: The trade off is that SMGs have extremely low CPU/PG requirements and only take up a sidearm slot. There's no need to buff them, because they are a low powered, low cost weapon. If you want more damage, use a bigger gun. This actually makes a lot of sense. Good answer!
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.02.13 21:41:00 - [10] - Quote IRuby Heart wrote: Baal Roo wrote: The trade off is that SMGs have extremely low CPU/PG requirements and only take up a sidearm slot. There's no need to buff them, because they are a low powered, low cost weapon. If you want more damage, use a bigger gun. This actually makes a lot of sense. Good answer! Thanks. This is actually the reason most of the vets get so irritated with all the "nerf this, buff that" threads. Yes, the HMG is ridiculously powerful. If you want that power, use it. Yes the Laser Rifle is crazy good at range. If you want to be crazy good at range, use it. Yes the Mass Driver can do damage around corners and over walls. If you want to do damage around corners and over walls... I think you see where this is going. Everything doesn't have to be "equal" in this game. The balance comes from how these weapons and classes fit together as a squad. Remember, this is a squad based shooter. I know logis who love to use that little SMG, because it's so cheap. This allows them to fit better logi gear to keep their squadmates alive, but still gives them an emergency weapon when needed. You can't just look at a piece of gear and compare it to other gear that can fit in the same slot as if that gear and those slots exist in a vacuum. You have to think about them in context of their CPU/PG, their ISK cost, their skill requirements, how they fit with the rest of a dropsuit, and what role the weapon performs in a group of 3 (soon to be 5) other players.

Rupture Reaperson Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION 37	Posted - 2013.02.13 21:41:00 - [11] - Quote Only thing about SMG that matter: GIVE US A PROPER SIGHT. Not that glass rectangle that looks like if robo cop took a dump and wiped his rear with it. A PROPER IRON SIGHT... or a scope, that works too. Thank you.
Johnny Guilt Algintal Core Gallente Federation 50	Posted - 2013.02.13 22:10:00 - [12] - Quote As a logi i hate the fact i invested into SMG ops to lvl4 they arent truly effective till maybe proficiency lvl and in sight of that iv up my shotgun ops for the time being where i can 1-2 shot most milita gear in close range. SMG dont need a buff, they just suck for anyone not willing to invest into them completely, there are better options than the SMG at CQC that do WAY better fresh at the start.
Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 397	Posted - 2013.02.13 22:45:00 - [13] - Quote Rupture Reaperson wrote: Only thing about SMG that matter: GIVE US A PROPER SIGHT. Not that glass rectangle that looks like if robo cop took a dump and wiped his rear with it. A PROPER IRON SIGHT... or a scope, that works too. Thank you. Absolutely not. The SMG has the coolest ADS sight in the game. A scope would be useless since the range is so short, and all the iron sights in Dust stink right now (Especially scrambler pistols). Not to mention that the red dot is essential for determining whether your target is in range or not. Iron sights would be a huge nerf.
Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 397	Posted - 2013.02.13 22:47:00 - [14] - Quote Johnny Guilt wrote: As a logi i hate the fact i invested into SMG ops to lvl4 they arent truly effective till maybe proficiency lvl and in sight of that iv up my shotgun ops for the time being where i can 1-2 shot most milita gear in close range. SMG dont need a buff, they just suck for anyone not willing to invest into them completely, there are better options than the SMG at CQC that do WAY better fresh at the start. That's a bummer. They really are all-or-nothing for Logi use, since you can't pair 'em with a light weapon.
Rhuvian Marccus Deep Space Republic 25	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:38:00 - [15] - Quote Johnny Guilt wrote: As a logi i hate the fact i invested into SMG ops to lvl4 they arent truly effective till maybe proficiency lvl and in sight of that iv up my shotgun ops for the time being where i can 1-2 shot most milita gear in close range. SMG dont need a buff, they just suck for anyone not willing to invest into them completely, there are better options than the SMG at CQC that do WAY better fresh at the start. Yeah I don't know - maybe they just aren't for your play style? Different strokes for different folks, and finding the right equipment for each person changes the game completely for them quite often. Like I said earlier, with almost nothing put into SMG skills in any way, and only basic shield/armor mods on the Logi-Sis (though perhaps that is making a bigger difference than I realise) I can get 14 + kills with the SMG alone. The real trick is to be damned close and keep a constant bead on the head or upper chest. With an SMG's ROF each bullet adds up pretty fast that I've seen. Pretty regularly kill heavies with the thing even.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 36	Posted - 2013.02.14 01:09:00 - [16] - Quote Hum, this thread is strange to me. Aside from the laser rifle, in certain situations, all I use is the SMG, in fact, I'm not even skilled into any other weapon. To me all the other weapons in this game are absolute garbage. I regularly do twenty + with the SMG. Shrugs SMGs do need a fix however: If you do the math for dps you will find that the breach is ridiculously under powered and that the assault variant out performs the next higher tier standard SMG for each tier (e.g. "assault" out performs the "M512"; "M209" out performs the "Six Kin"). facepalm someone seriously failed at the math on this one. The standard and breach variants are in serious need of a buff (the breach far more so however, in my opinion, it is completely worthless at the moment).
Icy Tiger Universal Allies Inc. 1026	Posted - 2013.02.14 01:13:00 - [17] - Quote The only things an SMG would need are a red dot laser, and a silencer.
Leovarian L Lavitz Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 278	Posted - 2013.02.14 01:16:00 - [18] - Quote Flux grenades fix the weakness against shields, I'm told
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 36	Posted - 2013.02.14 01:17:00 - [19] - Quote Icy Tiger wrote: The only things an SMG would need are a red dot laser, and a silencer. Oooooo, sexy Especially considering that I am speced into scouts. I would be such a ninja with this. The laser would have to work with hip fire though and be a visible beam, and be able to be switched on and off. This would be amazing.
IRuby Heart DIOS EX. 326	Posted - 2013.02.14 01:31:00 - [20] - Quote Icy Tiger wrote: The only things an SMG would need are a red dot laser, and a silencer. Wouldn't silencers be useless in a game like this though?

Vaerana Myshtana ScIdama Endless Renaissance 202	Posted - 2013.02.14 01:36:00 - [21] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Make them closer to an AR in damage without increasing CPU/PG, at which point... why use the AR? SMG range is total carp. That's why you use an AR. It would be nice if they were slightly more effective given their abysmal range.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 36	Posted - 2013.02.14 01:36:00 - [22] - Quote IRuby Heart wrote: Icy Tiger wrote: The only things an SMG would need are a red dot laser, and a silencer. Wouldn't silencers be useless in a game like this though? Hell no. I could take out a whole squad of reds and no one would ever know I was there.
Sleepy Zan Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2047	Posted - 2013.02.14 01:37:00 - [23] - Quote Ignoble Son wrote: IRuby Heart wrote: Icy Tiger wrote: The only things an SMG would need are a red dot laser, and a silencer. Wouldn't silencers be useless in a game like this though? Hell no. I could take out a whole squad of reds and no one would ever know I was there. oh really?
Thumb Green Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2013.02.14 01:37:00 - [24] - Quote I use the SMG as my assaults sidearm instead of the scrambler. That way when my rifle needs reloading but the guy in front of me needs a few more bullets in him; I can just switch and finish the job without dieing. The scrambler kills them off faster if I manage to hit them but it needs reloading quicker than the SMG; which tends to mean I end up dead. Every tool has a proper method of use; so the only thing I can imagine is the people using it against you are using it wrong.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 36	Posted - 2013.02.14 01:41:00 - [25] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Make them closer to an AR in damage without increasing CPU/PG, at which point... why use the AR? SMG range is total carp. That's why you use an AR. It would be nice if they were slightly more effective given their abysmal range. Ya they just should have never been nerfed during the last omni-nerf CCP did.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 36	Posted - 2013.02.14 01:49:00 - [26] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: Ignoble Son wrote: IRuby Heart wrote: Icy Tiger wrote: The only things an SMG would need are a red dot laser, and a silencer. Wouldn't silencers be useless in a game like this though? Hell no. I could take out a whole squad of reds and no one would ever know I was there. oh really? It sure would be fun to test.
Vaerana Myshtana ScIdama Endless Renaissance 202	Posted - 2013.02.14 01:49:00 - [27] - Quote Ignoble Son wrote: Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Make them closer to an AR in damage without increasing CPU/PG, at which point... why use the AR? SMG range is total carp. That's why you use an AR. It would be nice if they were slightly more effective given their abysmal range. Ya they just should have never been nerfed during the last omni-nerf CCP did. I'm not sure they shouldn't have been nerfed, but maybe a slight unnerfing? To my mind, it's not the range or damage that should be nerfed, it's the accuracy. SMGs have very short barrels, high RoF, and lower bullet velocities, meaning that they should recoil and scatter like a motherkitten. Each bullet should still have a good punch and be effective out to about 100m, but you probably wouldn't get more than one hit unless the target is close.
Indianna Pwns The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 9	Posted - 2013.02.14 02:04:00 - [28] - Quote I dont have a problem with the range on SMG's, I do feel that within that short range they should be better. Currently they are good when an enemy is within a couple of meters, however once outside of this they get steadily worse out to their max range (at which point the damage it does is laughable). Also the ADS speed seems very sluggish, which means I am forced to hipfire it almost exclusively. As a logi I feel its always better to take an assult rifle over an SMG as the advantage in the short range i would gain from the SMG is not enough to compensate for its lack of range and stopping power at 10+ meters. Basically the AR outperforms it at all but the very closest ranges, whereas i feel the SMG should destroy the AR at close range and more gradually start to be outperformed as engagements move into the midrange.
Thumb Green Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2013.02.14 02:05:00 - [29] - Quote Accidentally posted this one in the wrong thread
Y0UR NAME HERE Imperfects Negative-Feedback 441	Posted - 2013.02.14 02:13:00 - [30] - Quote IRuby Heart wrote: I think they're in need of a slight buff, I understand they have a huge clip and high rof but the damage is laughable. Just now got done with a game where two guys using Submachine guns jumped me from behind and started spraying my back with lead(No, Plasma?). I casually turned around and killed the first guy closest to me, reloaded, and proceeded to kill the 2nd guy. Like the beast that I am, I put on my shades, called in my LAV and drove off into the setting sun ^True story, I was using a raven suit with only a basic shield extender and they just barely got to my armor, this is a usual and quite common occurence for me. Anyone who is using a Submachine gun against me is guaranteed to get killed and I'm not even good. Personally I have the Toxin submachine gun from the mercenary pack and it's really subpar. While I don't have any skills invested in the SMG's, I find that using a scrambler pistol and Pistol operation to level 1 nets a lot more kills and is a lot more effective damage wise.......Wait, maybe this is the wrong thread, MAYBE, Scrambler pistols are OP My burst Sub machine chews threw ppl idk why, used to find it more crap then a normal one, but get all your shots off, i like it.



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