DUST Search - I never say (X) is overpowered...

RAS Actual wrote:

it's not damage i want nerfed. it's rate of fire. and if it's 'bullet latency' i want it addressed. hence the feedback. and though i agree with you about the 12 rounds per second, i have directly observed players tap tap single/double shot bursts with the result i'm mentioning. in fact those players were the very reason i came to the OP conclusion. if i get hosed with a whole stream of bullets i understand, but if i'm engaging someone at supposedly TAC AR range, who has a non TAC AR weapon, who was completely unaware of me, but then *pop pop* two, three shots and takes me out, there is something that needs to be addressed with the weapon.

the point is this: you can balance against shotguns, submachineguns, HMGs by engaging at range and using cover. you can balance snipers by decreasing range and using cover. there is no effective balance against the GEK except switching to sniper or using cover, which becomes a moot point when everyone is using the GEK, you'll just get pinned. if the only way to balance the GEK is to go sniper, there'd be nothing but GEKs on one team and snipers on the other, and that is whacked. also, the non TAC AR is a short-to-mid range weapon, that is its slot, that is its role. the GEK is not a TAC AR, thus should not have the same range as one with such high damage. it simply should not compete with a LR at max range period.

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RAS Actual Black Tengu Corporation 38	Posted - 2013.02.12 10:09:00 - [1] - Quote ...but the GEK is overpowered. i hate whiners who just want everything dumbed down and 'balanced' (read: boring), and i know powerful platforms require creative and novel tactics to overcome. so i have made it a point to NEVER complain about a particular weapon. but the GEK is still overpowered. with my sharpshooter skill upped, i should not be two-shotted by a 2nd tier AR from barely within my laser rifle's range, while POURING a stacked enhanced dmg modded laser beam right into their face. it's a proto gun, without the proto requirements. the difference between it and the 1st tier rifle is astronomical, and it's too close to proto to make proto worth speccing into. maybe SOME of the players rampaging about have done their homework and upped their sharpshooter, and stacked up some damage mods, but there's no way ALL of the people you see using it are doing that. it doesn't seem to matter what you've got or how far away you are, even heavies are being one-shotted by these things. that's proto tech, in the hands of people who did no work to get it. one could say "go sniper and pick em off" but teams full of snipers are already a major problem in this game. sure, i'm aware there are thousgillions of posts about this already, but this one is mine.
1LTNORFLEET Lost-Legion 24	Posted - 2013.02.12 10:16:00 - [2] - Quote note no ar 2 shots this is in the chromosome patch notes listed as bullet projectile latency meaning that really he just fired an entire clip but you saw 2 shots
RAS Actual Black Tengu Corporation 38	Posted - 2013.02.12 10:22:00 - [3] - Quote ok i can see that as valid, but all in all, there are many instances where this weapon is obviously unbalanced. if it's lag/bullet latency, then a great solution is to reduce rate of fire. or better yet, keep the gun exactly as it is EXCEPT make it a one shot rifle. that'd fix it entirely. still make it hit like a sledgehammer, but don't tell me he shot me with a whole clip as i rounded a corner and i only saw 2 shots. that's not a broken gun that's a broken game. it's too often and too regular to just be lag.
Panther Alpha Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 44	Posted - 2013.02.12 10:30:00 - [4] - Quote You do realize that to use the GEK you need : Weaponry (1x) - Level 1 Assault Rifle Operation (2x)- level 3 It is normal that is going to be more powerful, and actually is the only gun that the Assault troops have, that can compete against the autocannon, force guns, shotguns, and so on. Take that away from us, and we will became just sitting ducks for every one else.
RAS Actual Black Tengu Corporation 38	Posted - 2013.02.12 10:38:00 - [5] - Quote i don't want to take it away from you, i just want its damage to be commensurate with the rest of the weapons in that tier. (x)Operation- lvl 3 + Weaponry- lvl 1 is NOTHING in terms of SP investment. i had to skill to use heavies, skill up my weaponry, and buy and skill up for an HMG, representing WAY more SP and ISK invested. it's not that i hate the gun, it's just so out of whack in terms of damage for that tier in relation to other weapons of that tier. i see some TRULY AWFUL players running around like idiots, and the ONLY thing that saves them is the GEK. so yes, if that is the case for you, i would dearly like to take that away from you, and force you to GET GOOD.
Panther Alpha Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 44	Posted - 2013.02.12 10:45:00 - [6] - Quote RAS Actual wrote: i don't want to take it away from you, i just want its damage to be commensurate with the rest of the weapons in that tier. (x)Operation- lvl 3 + Weaponry- lvl 1 is NOTHING in terms of SP investment. i had to skill to use heavies, skill up my weaponry, and buy and skill up for an HMG, representing WAY more SP and ISK invested. it's not that i hate the gun, it's just so out of whack in terms of damage for that tier in relation to other weapons of that tier. i see some TRULY AWFUL players running around like idiots, and the ONLY thing that saves them is the GEK. so yes, if that is the case for you, i would dearly like to take that away from you, and force you to GET GOOD. I average 18-4 K/D per battle, and 1200 WP per battle. Don't talk me about getting good mate. And i don't get that scores because the GEK. I use the "Burst rifle tier 2" allot too, and my scores are the same.
RAS Actual Black Tengu Corporation 38	Posted - 2013.02.12 10:48:00 - [7] - Quote also: [quote= It is normal that is going to be more powerful, and actually is the only gun that the Assault troops have, that can compete against the autocannon, force guns, shotguns, and so on. [/quote] the assault rifle is NOT supposed to compete with the shotgun at close range, or the HMG at close range or in terms of rate of fire, or with damage output from the forge gun, or the sniper rifle. IT IS A MID RANGE WEAPON. you're supposed to engage targets at range using AR's not pray your gun is better than a rapidly approaching scout shotty or HMG. you're supposed to USE COVER in order to avoid snipers and forge gunners. you're supposed to LEARN to play the game, not rely on an overpowered weapon exploit to win. an example: the other mid range weapon, the laser rifle, is garbage in close quarters play, forcing an LR user to use cover and engage at optimal range, or spec into powerful sidearms. the limitations are what deepens gameplay. and yet the GEK is as effective at 10 yards as it is at 90, has a large clip size, and isn't in danger of overheating and blowing up in your face. there are no limitations but max range, and that range is farther than anything except the sniper rifle.
RAS Actual Black Tengu Corporation 38	Posted - 2013.02.12 10:51:00 - [8] - Quote i wasn't directing the GET GOOD at you personally, nor do i mean it in the demeaning usage so often employed in shooter forums. i literally meant it as players should be forced to take their environment and opposing players into consideration rather than depending on an oversight/unintentional unbalance, because doing those things means you are actually GETTING GOOD. no disrespect, mate.
Irish Syn Chernova Industries 123	Posted - 2013.02.12 10:56:00 - [9] - Quote GEK is fine. Made an alternate character to quickly try it out and didn't notice too much. It's an advanced weapon, of course it's going to be a bit better. No better than my advanced SMG, or whatever advanced weapon you may be running. Instead of nerfing everything to the point where there is no point in purchasing advanced or proto gear, perhaps other actions could be taken. ISK increase is a simple one if needed. It would also be nice if there was a better way to tell what an enemy is using before you are a teammate gets killed by it. Something like a different gun model or different sound. Ideally everything would look different and sound different, but we're probably far away from that. The least CCP could do is add 3 different models and sounds effects that apply to all basic, advanced, and proto sets. Knowing is half the battle.
RAS Actual Black Tengu Corporation 38	Posted - 2013.02.12 11:08:00 - [10] - Quote irish i like the cut of your jib. you're offering solutions. i must disagree about the gun not being overpowered but i hear where you're coming from. to clarify, this is the setup i was running today that was losing 1v1 against the GEK which caused all this hullabaloo: Laser Rifle- first tier no name- LR has max range of mid range weapons, on par with tactical ARs 2x Enhanced Light Dmg Mods stacked Light Weapon Sharpshooter level 2 (or 3, can't remember) using cover exclusively, i never, never fire a LR outside of cover or at enemies too far away/too close to be effective. the situation: i engage a target from nearly max range for my LR, which is far. he feels the heat, jumps around like an idiot, i cook him to a nice rare, he sees my beam, pops off two shots, and before i can move behind the rock/wall/whatever i'm standing RIGHT NEXT TO, i'm dead. this isn't a question of bullet lag, there was no lag while i was cooking his ass. none while he hopped around like an idiot, and none when he turned around and popped me off from max max range with 2-4 shots. if this happened once or twice or ten times i'd chalk it up to skill/shield/dropsuit. but this played out DOZENS of times today, with people i observed displaying the skill of headless chickens and clearly had NO IDEA where they were getting shot from at the beginning of engagement. it's the gun. i know i'm not using a souped-up LR, but hitting an immobile, unaware, unprepared target from concealment at max range SHOULD ALWAYS WIN AN ENGAGEMENT.

Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2013.02.12 11:19:00 - [11] - Quote It does 5% more damage than the militia AR, not a lot of room to reduce that damage. And you did not get hit by 2 bullets. Normal AR's shoot 12 rounds per second. I should also point out that the middle tier weapon can't be "OP" without the prototype being "OP" too which means you have to nerf all AR damage.
RAS Actual Black Tengu Corporation 38	Posted - 2013.02.12 11:38:00 - [12] - Quote it's not damage i want nerfed. it's rate of fire. and if it's 'bullet latency' i want it addressed. hence the feedback. and though i agree with you about the 12 rounds per second, i have directly observed players tap tap single/double shot bursts with the result i'm mentioning. in fact those players were the very reason i came to the OP conclusion. if i get hosed with a whole stream of bullets i understand, but if i'm engaging someone at supposedly TAC AR range, who has a non TAC AR weapon, who was completely unaware of me, but then pop pop two, three shots and takes me out, there is something that needs to be addressed with the weapon. the point is this: you can balance against shotguns, submachineguns, HMGs by engaging at range and using cover. you can balance snipers by decreasing range and using cover. there is no effective balance against the GEK except switching to sniper or using cover, which becomes a moot point when everyone is using the GEK, you'll just get pinned. if the only way to balance the GEK is to go sniper, there'd be nothing but GEKs on one team and snipers on the other, and that is whacked. also, the non TAC AR is a short-to-mid range weapon, that is its slot, that is its role. the GEK is not a TAC AR, thus should not have the same range as one with such high damage. it simply should not compete with a LR at max range period.
Coleman Gray Coalition Of Goverments 47	Posted - 2013.02.12 11:40:00 - [13] - Quote I ***** and moan and rage more than ANYONE on this game about Gek assault rifles, I feel they deal far too much damage sometimes but EVERY single weapon on this game can be deemed OP, SHotguns kill at close range in one or two shots, HMG can eat 2-3 players alive at once, Forge gun one shot kills all it touches and makes Tank drivers go "oh that hurt abit " can go on and on, It's all situation based at the end of the day
RAS Actual Black Tengu Corporation 38	Posted - 2013.02.12 11:49:00 - [14] - Quote i agree with you coleman that it's a slippery slope, and that's why i never (except now) make the OP argument. it's definitely situational. but all the weapons are supposed to be overpowering when engaged IN THEIR ELEMENT. the problem with the GEK is that it's just a do-it-all all purpose killing machine, it has no niche element. it removes the need for skill in assault players, and requires very little investment to attain. if it were a duvolle, or ishukone, i would not be complaining about it at all. those weapons deserve to be OP because they are VERY expensive. that kind of investment and skill level accompany skilled players. the GEK requires so little, and delivers so much, it de-incentivises skilled play.
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2013.02.12 11:51:00 - [15] - Quote RAS Actual wrote: it's not damage i want nerfed. it's rate of fire. and if it's 'bullet latency' i want it addressed. hence the feedback. and though i agree with you about the 12 rounds per second, i have directly observed players tap tap single/double shot bursts with the result i'm mentioning. in fact those players were the very reason i came to the OP conclusion. if i get hosed with a whole stream of bullets i understand, but if i'm engaging someone at supposedly TAC AR range, who has a non TAC AR weapon, who was completely unaware of me, but then pop pop two, three shots and takes me out, there is something that needs to be addressed with the weapon. the point is this: you can balance against shotguns, submachineguns, HMGs by engaging at range and using cover. you can balance snipers by decreasing range and using cover. there is no effective balance against the GEK except switching to sniper or using cover, which becomes a moot point when everyone is using the GEK, you'll just get pinned. if the only way to balance the GEK is to go sniper, there'd be nothing but GEKs on one team and snipers on the other, and that is whacked. also, the non TAC AR is a short-to-mid range weapon, that is its slot, that is its role. the GEK is not a TAC AR, thus should not have the same range as one with such high damage. it simply should not compete with a LR at max range period. Rate of fire is the same as militia and it still only does 5% more damage. The militia AR with 2 militia damage mods on it is more powerful than the GEK. GEK has longer optimal range, that's it. 2 meters (or 6 feet) longer optimal range. The optimal range of the laser rifle is 61m-78m compared with a maximum optimal range on the GEK of 37m.
RAS Actual Black Tengu Corporation 38	Posted - 2013.02.12 11:53:00 - [16] - Quote also think about all these players using the GEK to grind out in pub matches, constantly getting comparatively more ISK and SP, being able to afford the proto guns quicker than people who play the game straight up by skill. do you really want a bunch of bunnyhopping asshats running duvolles in pub matches just because they can afford it, ruining it for every new player, teaching every new player that that is the only way to win, perpetuating the asshatery?
RAS Actual Black Tengu Corporation 38	Posted - 2013.02.12 11:59:00 - [17] - Quote altina (if that is your REAL name..) that's my point. it should be lower ROF and lower range if it is going to be that powerful. ARs should conform to the paradigm they are assigned to. the TAC ARs should have more range than standard ARs. if the same was happening to me, but the gun was a TAC AR variant, i would have no complaint. but, for instance, there was 2nd tier shotgun that was as effective at 30 meters as it was at 10, there would be a problem. the LR at close range is worthless. the TAC AR at close range is pretty bad due to single fire. the GEK works the same and hits crazy hard whether at 10, 20 meters or at max range. there is no fall off or weakness to it like EVERY other weapon in the game. thus, OP
Panther Alpha Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 44	Posted - 2013.02.12 12:03:00 - [18] - Quote RAS Actual wrote: i agree with you coleman that it's a slippery slope, and that's why i never (except now) make the OP argument. it's definitely situational. but all the weapons are supposed to be overpowering when engaged IN THEIR ELEMENT. the problem with the GEK is that it's just a do-it-all all purpose killing machine, it has no niche element. it removes the need for skill in assault players, and requires very little investment to attain. if it were a duvolle, or ishukone, i would not be complaining about it at all. those weapons deserve to be OP because they are VERY expensive. that kind of investment and skill level accompany skilled players. the GEK requires so little, and delivers so much, it de-incentivises skilled play. Have you try playing as an Assault trooper ? Against : - Nearly impossible to kill heavies with OP autocannons - Fast scouts with OP shotguns - Impossible to find snipers with OP rifles - Forge guns that kills you in one shoot, and you don't even know where it come from. Actually, the assault class is the hardest to master, and takes some real skills, to survive against so many over the top OP guns around you. You sir have not idea what you talking about.
KalOfTheRathi CowTek 168	Posted - 2013.02.12 12:08:00 - [19] - Quote Now you can never say you didn't QQ about a weapon again. OP Virginity Lost!
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2013.02.12 12:13:00 - [20] - Quote RAS Actual wrote: altina (if that is your REAL name..) that's my point. it should be lower ROF and lower range if it is going to be that powerful. ARs should conform to the paradigm they are assigned to. the TAC ARs should have more range than standard ARs. if the same was happening to me, but the gun was a TAC AR variant, i would have no complaint. but, for instance, there was 2nd tier shotgun that was as effective at 30 meters as it was at 10, there would be a problem. the LR at close range is worthless. the TAC AR at close range is pretty bad due to single fire. the GEK works the same and hits crazy hard whether at 10, 20 meters or at max range. there is no fall off or weakness to it like EVERY other weapon in the game. thus, OP So you think the assault rifles all need to be nerfed or just the normal models? Not the Tactical or Burst versions?

Tribalfreak Baham Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 9	Posted - 2013.02.12 13:38:00 - [21] - Quote I'm something of a noob here so bare with me. what makes the gek so OP? I looked at the stats and it's hardly any different from any other AR. is there something i'm missing?
Panther Alpha Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 44	Posted - 2013.02.12 13:49:00 - [22] - Quote Tribalfreak Baham wrote: I'm something of a noob here so bare with me. what makes the gek so OP? I looked at the stats and it's hardly any different from any other AR. is there something i'm missing? No you haven't. The problem is that people with over the top OP guns, wants to kill assault troopers like flies. To they come across a "proper" assault guy, that has spend SP's in the right skills, and they get their A** kick by that little fly. I think that very annoys them.
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 175	Posted - 2013.02.12 14:37:00 - [23] - Quote Dear CCP Please flatten everything in this game. Completely remove any difference in damage for all weapons. I feel bad for the new kids and the disabled. Pro tip: Bonus points for making prototype gear free BPO. K thx. Discuss. -A Concerned Gamer
Raze galder Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 28	Posted - 2013.02.12 15:35:00 - [24] - Quote I don't think its op its tier 2 so its stronger then militia add on some non penalty dmg mods and its stronger still. I do think its just the go to weapon at the moment due to it being low cost for isk and sp investment and with the huge influx of assault players using the AR due to them not knowing much else from other games your going to see it alot more then other weapons.
Reimus Klinsman BetaMax. 320	Posted - 2013.02.12 18:10:00 - [25] - Quote 1LTNORFLEET wrote: note no ar 2 shots this is in the chromosome patch notes listed as bullet projectile latency meaning that really he just fired an entire clip but you saw 2 shots Or you simultaneously got shot by a sniper
Jack Sharkey42 Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 18	Posted - 2013.02.12 18:42:00 - [26] - Quote Also as a reminder a lot of people that play assault and are GOOD at assault are probably dumping every single individual bullet DIRECTLY into your head for extra damage. They also have probably upped their weaponry skills, and the proficiency skill. They probably also have damage mods on their guns. If you are anything short of a heavy or tankish assault, you will be mowed down by someone like that in 1-2 seconds at most. Especially if you're out in the open. I've ALMOST gotten mad at GEK guns before...but then I remember I'm a Logibro, I'm not SUPPOSED to survive a volley of augmented AR bullets to the face. Just keep the fact in mind, are you DESIGNED to survive? If not, is the person attacking you DESIGNED to kill you? If these two facts are true, the result will be obvious. You will die, and they will be doing their job EXTREMELY well.
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2013.02.12 19:15:00 - [27] - Quote Again, for the record I would like to reiterate my earlier post that the GEK only does, at most, 6.2% more damage than the militia AR. 2 seconds is a long time for me to be pounding rounds into someone's head before they die but let's go with that. This means the "over-powered" GEK killed you about 0.12 seconds faster than the militia would have. Just throwing that out there.
usrevenge2 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 64	Posted - 2013.02.12 19:30:00 - [28] - Quote the gek does like 2 more damage per shot over the normal AR it isn't that big of a deal, with skills you can push the normal AR over the gek.
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2013.02.12 19:41:00 - [29] - Quote usrevenge2 wrote: the gek does like 2 more damage per shot over the normal AR it isn't that big of a deal, with skills you can push the normal AR over the gek. Skills that affect the standard AR would affect the GEK as well but modules can do it if you're limited by your fit. Generally speaking the advanced weapon does 5% (same as enhanced damage modifier) more damage than the standard weapon and the prototype does 5% more damage than the Advanced. The only benefit is secondary characteristics such as heat produced, rate of fire, accuracy, optimal range etc... Interestingly for the most part the jump from standard to advanced offer a much larger increase in secondary stats than the jump from advanced to prototype would. Levels the playing field a bit more.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2013.02.12 19:58:00 - [30] - Quote Out of curiosity which version of the GEK was it?

RAS Actual Black Tengu Corporation 38	Posted - 2013.02.12 22:40:00 - [31] - Quote wow such lively conversation, i love it! ok ok, so maybe OP isn't the optimal word. perhaps i should say overUSED. or overINCENTIVISED. i definitely don't want the weapons flattened and all nerfed into blandness. and that's WHY the GEK troubles me so. when i get taken down by an assault, i look at their weapon, and i'm seeing by and large 3 guns: the exile, the militia, and the GEK. that's it. let's lump the exile in with militia and call that the starter gun. that's a large segment of the ARs used. but with alarming frequency i'm seeing more and more GEK users. check the top right kill ticker in game. GEK GEK GEK GEK GEK. no 1st tier ARs, no proto's. i don't need the points of why not to use proto in pub matches explained to me. so when EVERYbody uses the same gun, which is SO effective against all other playstyles, there is effectively a plateau where people aren't incentivised to get creative and switch up and get out of ARs only. and if everybody is all just plugging away at each other with the same gun and the same play style, the game becomes VERY BORING. if everyone who can afford the GEK only uses the GEK ever, something is obviously wrong. maybe it's not the gun. but CCP needs to take a good look at what is happening here, in order to keep gameplay from stagnating. THAT'S the entire point of the original post. i want to keep the game from getting stale. i don't think we should hand-hold everybody or cater to every QQ out there, i just wanted to state my opinion that the gun deincentivises creative thinking and play skill.
kevin durnt B.J.N.Z 3	Posted - 2013.02.17 18:00:00 - [32] - Quote are you sure he wasnt using any damage modules? i always use them with my GEK and i go 19-4 almost every game


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