DUST Search - [Feedback] The Problem With Dropships: A few severe oversights.

Nguruthos IX wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Nguruthos IX wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Lmfao, blaming the Forge Gun on the Dropships low survivability.

ITS A TRANSPORT SHIP

You think a Blackhawk suddenly sprouts some sort of countermeasure against a tank's canister charge? Hell no, it just falls apart and everyone inside (provided they were lucky enough to survive the giant ball bearings) just falls to their death.

Forge Gun weaponry is straight skill and it's a specialist weapon. That guy had to invest SP into Heavy's and Forge Guns in order to use a half-decent one that's capable of doing that sort of destruction, just like you had to invest SP into your half-decent Dropship.

I can't wait to see all the rage against the Plasma Cannon when scouts are running around skill-shotting the dropships to death.

Sorry I stopped reading when you tried to import IRL logic into a video game. Video games are fantasy. And MMOs generally make balance decisions based on what is fair not what emulates reality. I mean we're talking about a game set in space with warpgates, clones and, "transferring consciousness" at the moment of death. Which from a scientific perspective is honestly about the stupidest sci-fi excuse to justify respawning in a game.

It's not balanced if as pointed out in this thread some guy on the ground can easily 1shot the most expensive loadout dropship from across the map with no warning or recourse. Dropships don't need to be tanks, but forge guns don't need to be death-star lasers either.

If we're going to make Dust 514 based on reality and current military technology then how about the moment your character dies. It's dead, loses everything and you start over. Oh wait, its a game. That would be no fun, and to be fun games have to be balanced.

Go back and read my post instead of being an uneducated imbecile. The Dropship can be killed by a Railgun and Blaster just as easily as it could be killed by a Forge Gunner; in fact, the Forge Gunner is a lot more susceptible to return fire if your side gunners are worth a damn; which I can only imagine you're basing your experience of pub games.

The problem isn't Forge Guns, it's the Dropships. They'll explode just by touching something that looks at it funny and being as the Forge Gun takes some skill to use (just like it takes you some skill to fly the dropship) the only variable taken into account was that you were making the Dropship an easy target.

The Golden Rule of New Eden: Always always ALWAYS stay in motion.

Also, read into the Eve Online lore on clone tech - just makes you look bad when you spout of some ignorant **** like that.

Ahh, and now onto name calling. Again I can't make it past your first sentence, but since I did make it that far I'd recommend you reassess your own intelligence. And sadly since I read the last sentence first I'll just point out that copying and transmitting information, even if you were to construct an atom-by-atom replica of your brain it would not result in immortality. You would, in new Eden- die.

Here's a simple experiment. Clone yourself right now as you are living. See your clone? He's alive. Now would you feel ok about dying because your clone is alive? No, because if you died now you're dead but your copy is alive, and who cares that's not You. It's a new person with old memories. Transferring conciseness is bogus. Eve capsule cloning even says it wrecks your grey matter and might fail. Once cloned or not, if your brains fried you're outta here.

You're going to say I look bad because I have some grasp of basic physics while on the other hand you profess to believe in magic? Alright. . .

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Nguruthos IX Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 24	Posted - 2013.02.07 13:36:00 - [31] - Quote xXCleopatra FlippantXx wrote: i'd like it if the dropships had a little more armor/shield yea. And i like the idea of being able to fly higher and adding some cool **** to doge behind, just a litte more maby? the newest 'city' map has enough tho. maby some taller building at each base to fly around. do you use shield and or armor hardeners tho? my gallente militia ship can usualy handle 4 swarms, i'm usually allways recless when i die Generally shields but I'm going to be trying everything. I never die to user error anymore. Unless you can count not predicting that a RDV will be virtually spawning inside of me. Or not knowing some forge gun started aiming at me 1 second before I'm burning hull. Other guns take me down fair when they do it seems. But I don't crash my ship into a building or floor or anything like that. Can't tell you how often Its a miss by a hair though lol. Some intense moments to be sure.
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 970	Posted - 2013.02.07 14:47:00 - [32] - Quote To balance FG's against both the HAV and DS you have to give the DS an equal amount of advantage as the HAV, but it doesn't have to be n identical advantage. I'm thinking along the lines of evasion rather than tanking. A well fit top tier ship shouldn't be downed with a single shot, but it doesn't have to be able to tank four or five hits either. Possible solutions: Cloaking - you can't hit what you don't know is there. Visual Displacement - not full cloaking, but rather a technology that messes with where you perceive an object to be. It would mess with the FG's aim and be more effective at range. The visual warp field of the promised "smoke grenade" might be a basis for it. Remove the flight ceiling and give us a scalable mini map - so we can hover precisely over an objective at altitude and drop troops for an assault. AB - we already have this for the travel portion of the flight Flares/Chaff - this is for the SL, but the same idea. It's more useful on a DS than a tank because you have to be moving to avoid the splash. ECM module to alert on fired SL missiles and charging FGs - paint them on the map and we have a chance to evade. What are your ideas?
CommanderBolt Star Frontiers Alpha Dawn Ignore This. 1	Posted - 2013.02.07 16:08:00 - [33] - Quote Yes the flight ceiling needs to go up and collision damage really really needs to be looked at. Pretty much any bump causes serious damage or more times than not, death.
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 96	Posted - 2013.02.07 17:36:00 - [34] - Quote I'd say a better answer would be a reduction in forge gun range. I wouldn't mind a forge gunner being able to one-shot a dropship if it weren't for the fact that they can do it from the other side of the map. As it is now, the presence of a single forge gun anywhere on the field prohibits the movement of every enemy vehicle on the map. They're like snipers with big giant targets and explosive rounds.
Jack Sharkey42 Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 18	Posted - 2013.02.07 17:49:00 - [35] - Quote I don't see why a transport ship should ever stop moving in an area you can be shot at. You go to a local friendly spawn point where its assumed you be safe, grab a few people and just fly over a landing zone. All the people IN the ship just jump out at high altitude and turn on their inertial dampeners before they hit the ground (you guys know those things still work even after you spawn right?). The dropship should never even slowdown when everyone jumps out over a landing zone. Can't say I know much about tanking, but you should at least never be an easy to poke target
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 96	Posted - 2013.02.07 17:56:00 - [36] - Quote Actually as long as you're moving at a constant speed you're a fairly easy target, they just have to lead you. Dropships aren't nimble enough to juke in any meaningful way. Afterburners help a lot with this, of course. The flaw in your logic is that dropships aren't just troop transports. Some other roles intended to appear for them as development continues include ECM and remote repair. You saw the Gathering Forces trailer, where dropships were cap chaining HAVs? Y'know what you can't do while you're cap chaining a HAV? Be in motion in any meaningful way. So "you deserved to die for standing still" isn't a super helpful criticism.
Jack Sharkey42 Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 18	Posted - 2013.02.07 18:42:00 - [37] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: Django Quik wrote: I always laugh maniacally when I see someone bringing in a dropship. I just can't understand why anyone would bother. Most will die with 2 shots from my ADV swarm launcher or at least crash and burn (giving me no WP might I add!) and you get pretty much zero WP for flying a dropship. WP issues aside though, dropships really aren't that useful at the moment. The maps are small enough that an LAV will get you anywhere just as fast and maybe crush a few red dots on the way. They are intended for infantry delivery and extraction but there is absolutely no incentive to do this. So please enlighten me because I am still confused - other than the coolness of flying one, why do you bother using a dropship? Aside from hoping "it gets better". Just trying to get a new take on FPSs. That and or being an insatiable masochist and glutton for punishment. Btw, god bless you for trying to do something for a reason other than "I MUST WIN THE MMO THE MOST BETTER K:D SUPREME!" That's exactly what's going to make this game better is people trying to break out of the AR COD mindset!
Django Quik R.I.f.t 220	Posted - 2013.02.07 18:42:00 - [38] - Quote I thought of this thread today when I just couldn't kill a damned dropship for an entire game. Usually, no problem at all, especially against militias. But this was a standard, I think a Gorgon and no matter what I did, I could never get within even 1 shot of killing it before the pilot managed to get away to fully rep. As far as I could tell, he must've had at least 6000 eHP. He didn't move particularly fast, so doubt he had afterburners but he didn't really need them because he was wise enough to be high-tailing it out of there are the first swarm hit him. By the time the second and third hits got him, he was already disappearing behind cover. Dunno who it was, unfortunately, but it brings me back to my response to the HAV whiners - your militia ships will die. Fit out a good standard dropship well and you might be alright if you don't fly like a stiff turd.
Nguruthos IX Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 24	Posted - 2013.02.07 19:33:00 - [39] - Quote Yup just happened again. I can not Stand these RDVs!! I spawned in my 500k ish dropship. All alone far from anyone. Get in, hover slowly to make sure I don't crash into the one that dropped it off. Within 4 freaking seconds some guys jeep is getting delivered on top of me, Saw it coming, couldn't dodge. Exploded, dead. 500,000 isk lost in about 5 seconds before I got 10 feet off the gound. Seriously CCP. Please, if nothing else fix this. I'm only inclined to grind damages so long. This is kinda bull.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2013.02.08 06:28:00 - [40] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Lmfao, blaming the Forge Gun on the Dropships low survivability. ITS A TRANSPORT SHIP You think a Blackhawk suddenly sprouts some sort of countermeasure against a tank's canister charge? Hell no, it just falls apart and everyone inside (provided they were lucky enough to survive the giant ball bearings) just falls to their death. Forge Gun weaponry is straight skill and it's a specialist weapon. That guy had to invest SP into Heavy's and Forge Guns in order to use a half-decent one that's capable of doing that sort of destruction, just like you had to invest SP into your half-decent Dropship. I can't wait to see all the rage against the Plasma Cannon when scouts are running around skill-shotting the dropships to death. Sorry I stopped reading when you tried to import IRL logic into a video game. Video games are fantasy. And MMOs generally make balance decisions based on what is fair not what emulates reality. I mean we're talking about a game set in space with warpgates, clones and, "transferring consciousness" at the moment of death. Which from a scientific perspective is honestly about the stupidest sci-fi excuse to justify respawning in a game. It's not balanced if as pointed out in this thread some guy on the ground can easily 1shot the most expensive loadout dropship from across the map with no warning or recourse. Dropships don't need to be tanks, but forge guns don't need to be death-star lasers either. If we're going to make Dust 514 based on reality and current military technology then how about the moment your character dies. It's dead, loses everything and you start over. Oh wait, its a game. That would be no fun, and to be fun games have to be balanced. Go back and read my post instead of being an uneducated imbecile. The Dropship can be killed by a Railgun and Blaster just as easily as it could be killed by a Forge Gunner; in fact, the Forge Gunner is a lot more susceptible to return fire if your side gunners are worth a damn; which I can only imagine you're basing your experience of pub games. The problem isn't Forge Guns, it's the Dropships. They'll explode just by touching something that looks at it funny and being as the Forge Gun takes some skill to use (just like it takes you some skill to fly the dropship) the only variable taken into account was that you were making the Dropship an easy target. The Golden Rule of New Eden: Always always ALWAYS stay in motion. Also, read into the Eve Online lore on clone tech - just makes you look bad when you spout of some ignorant **** like that. Ahh, and now onto name calling. Again I can't make it past your first sentence, but since I did make it that far I'd recommend you reassess your own intelligence. And sadly since I read the last sentence first I'll just point out that copying and transmitting information, even if you were to construct an atom-by-atom replica of your brain it would not result in immortality. You would, in new Eden- die. Here's a simple experiment. Clone yourself right now as you are living. See your clone? He's alive. Now would you feel ok about dying because your clone is alive? No, because if you died now you're dead but your copy is alive, and who cares that's not You. It's a new person with old memories. Transferring conciseness is bogus. Eve capsule cloning even says it wrecks your grey matter and might fail. Once cloned or not, if your brains fried you're outta here. You're going to say I look bad because I have some grasp of basic physics while on the other hand you profess to believe in magic? Alright. . . And you did exactly what I thought you were going to and... "Sorry I stopped reading when you tried to import IRL logic into a video game." Ah-hah! A hypocrite at his finest.

Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2013.02.08 06:33:00 - [41] - Quote Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote: I'd say a better answer would be a reduction in forge gun range. I wouldn't mind a forge gunner being able to one-shot a dropship if it weren't for the fact that they can do it from the other side of the map. As it is now, the presence of a single forge gun anywhere on the field prohibits the movement of every enemy vehicle on the map. They're like snipers with big giant targets and explosive rounds. They tried that once and it was absolutely terrible. Why? Swarm Launchers aren't good for long range shots - they don't make it to the target in time to actually hit, giving him plenty of time to fly low and use the terrain as cover (something a lot of dropship pilots should honestly master). That and the fact that Tanks were seriously powerful a few builds ago and there was no legitimate defense against them due to their speed. You could take off a few chunks of HP with a forge gun but once he sped off to the redline to recover (such is the nature of shield tanks) you couldn't get close enough for the Forge Gun to hit. Honestly, there's no real solution. I kinda agree that Militia Forge Guns should be removed, if only because they're inexpensive and very powerful - but a better solution would be to reduce the damage on the Militia Forge Gun and leave the rest alone. EDIT: Reason being is because it prevents specialization into the higher tiers. The BEST solution would be for vehicle pilots to just have more infantry with them as the Forge Gun is terrible at killing them (unless you're a skill shot)
Nguruthos IX Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 24	Posted - 2013.02.09 11:23:00 - [42] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote: I'd say a better answer would be a reduction in forge gun range. I wouldn't mind a forge gunner being able to one-shot a dropship if it weren't for the fact that they can do it from the other side of the map. As it is now, the presence of a single forge gun anywhere on the field prohibits the movement of every enemy vehicle on the map. They're like snipers with big giant targets and explosive rounds. They tried that once and it was absolutely terrible. Why? Swarm Launchers aren't good for long range shots - they don't make it to the target in time to actually hit, giving him plenty of time to fly low and use the terrain as cover (something a lot of dropship pilots should honestly master). That and the fact that Tanks were seriously powerful a few builds ago and there was no legitimate defense against them due to their speed. You could take off a few chunks of HP with a forge gun but once he sped off to the redline to recover (such is the nature of shield tanks) you couldn't get close enough for the Forge Gun to hit. Honestly, there's no real solution. I kinda agree that Militia Forge Guns should be removed, if only because they're inexpensive and very powerful - but a better solution would be to reduce the damage on the Militia Forge Gun and leave the rest alone. EDIT: Reason being is because it prevents specialization into the higher tiers. The BEST solution would be for vehicle pilots to just have more infantry with them as the Forge Gun is terrible at killing them (unless you're a skill shot) having picked up the militia forge gun I find it laughably easy to shoot dropships with this gun. Also for the 6,000 it cost me I can pretty much take down any militia ship(150,000 ISK base) and do enough damage to a fitted dropship to keep him from doing anything at all productive. Seriously I am Horrible at sniping in video games. I tried sniping in dust and threw my hat in for assault. I can snipe players easier with the forge gun, from further away, faster, and vehicles are 100x an easier shot. For one they're not shooting back at you because they don't know I'm there. Second they're huge compared to an infantry (which did I mention takes about no skill to Forge?) To top it all off I have an open shot at this ship virtually no matter where it goes. Sure there might be one or two towers he could try to hind behind except A. He'll be dead before he can get near it. B. He has no idea the direction my shot came from. So he might well just fly closer or on the wrong side of something. PS. The upcoming notes say swarms will in fact be long range, and their rockets will track infinitely toward their target. So uh...


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