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Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
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Posted - 2013.02.02 13:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
People have made threads about friendly fire (FF) talking about how they look forward to team killing (TK'ing) snipers or people that "talk smack", and threads about how they hope FF doesn't get added to Instant Battles because they don't want to be TK'd for sniping. But what matters isn't how New Eden supposedly works, or non-gameplay stuff like that. What matters is making sure average Dust users get a good experience, with FF on, but don't get TK'd every game.
First, the reason why FF is, on principle, a good addition to games is that it adds depth by making you need to be more aware of what you're doing. Weapons become more nuanced, as you wouldn't be able to idly spam grenades or call down precision strikes without any thought. For a game like Dust, that doesn't shy away from depth and complexity, FF would be a good addition.
That said, being maliciously TK'd isn't a good experience for the vast majority of players. You can look at games, whether MMORPGs or FPS games, and see how the ones that allow TK'ing falter, while the ones that do not allow TK'ing become overwhelmingly popular. The issue of how to add FF, without enabling TK'ing to run rampant, is a pretty serious thing. Widespread TK'ing would be a huge problem for Dust, as it'd drive many more people from the game than allowing widespread TK'ing would attract. For a game that tries to get people playing for the long haul, that would be a serious problem.
So, what I'd propose is to have full FF, across Instant Battles, Drone Infestations, Corp Battles, and everything else. That said, TK'ing and FF in general should be automatically sanctioned in the following ways. The punishments would proceed down this list as the transgressions become more severe:
Stage 1) Damaging allies would automatically incur an ISK/SP penalty upon you relative to the damage you do. Killing them would incur the additional penalty of the cost of whatever the "ally" you killed was wearing and if applicable, driving. Your employer, as a merc, does not approve of you damaging your fellow mercs, and doing so violates your contractual obligations. This would be the penalty for your first few full TK's. This would be accompanied by an indication of how close you are to Stage 2 of the TK punishment system.
1a) Inflicting damage/kills against people in your corp, or who're in your pre-made squad, would not be punished whatsoever. If you don't like what your "friends" are doing, you can leave the corp/squad.
1b) The system should be intelligent enough to make penalties less for instances where your ally was near an enemy. Accidental shots hitting an ally shouldn't be such a big deal. A penalty, sure, but nothing too severe. However, each subsequent shot on an ally in a short period of time should inflict greater and greater penalties. Accidents happen, but careless spraying of shots should be discouraged. Similarly, one stray grenade shouldn't necessarily push you into the next level.
Stage 2) Once you've reached a certain threshold of team damage/kills you've inflicted in a single battle, your contract for that fight is terminated by your employer. You become a purple dot -- a grape, to use the vernacular -- and killable by anyone on the field, unable to interface with any structures, unable to call in any vehicles/etc. When you die, you will be removed from the match. You will get zero rewards, but the penalties you incurred due to your TK'ing will remain. You'll lose hundreds of thousands of ISK, lose SP, and have a temporary mark against your account. The marks will be erased over time (1 per week?).
Stage 3) If you get Stage 2 marks enough times (2 or 3?) within a certain period (24 hr?), you will be prohibited from being awarded new contracts for a period of time. At first, your merc license will be suspended for 1 day. Then 3 days, then 7 days, and then 30 days. You will not be allowed to use your particular PS3 or the PSN accounts tied to it to play Dust within that period of time. The only way TK'ing can be adequately discouraged is if it can't be circumvented with alt characters/PSN accounts. Your suspension level would decrease by one per year. No passive SP gain while suspended.
Stage 4) If you reach Stage 3 again at this point -- after a long history of egregious TK'ing -- your merc license will be permanently revoked, because you are clearly a defective clone and the empires all consider you a serious security risk. This will be a permanent ban from Dust on that PS3. Permanent hardware ban. Any accounts tied to it get deleted. Just a slight spoiler, basically nobody would ever reach this point, because the game would make it very clear to them that continued TK'ing will result in not being able to play Dust on that machine/with those accounts again. And once again, it only works if it is tied to the machine, otherwise it's easily circumvented with alt characters/PSN accounts.
Note: All time periods/thresholds/other values would be subject to change, this is just off-the-cuff.
Ideally, this system allows FF and the deeper game it brings, but is intelligent enough to discourage FF without too heavily penalizing people who miss a shot and hit a friendly who is near an enemy. But it will result in a fairly sanctions should TK'ing start getting excessive. It totally jives with the "lore" and makes sense in the context of New Eden, and it threatens a severe enough punishment for repeated TK'ing that people would be very reluctant to go down that route and become permanently banned from Dust.
Again, without having a permanent hardware ban, they may as well just make TK'ing totally unrestricted, as otherwise people will simply make alt accounts to TK people with, using militia gear or LAVs which aren't bothered by losses of ISK or SP. The only penalty that would truly matter to the dedicated TK'er is one which goes across all accounts you own. |
V1RONXSS
AL0NE Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 13:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
ccmon ppl.. anyways, in my opinion its will add fun/realistic etc but in long term, its can easy become boring so that nobody will care about any objectives at all but kd only. However i dont mind if i will not like it there still games that deliver...
P.S. word for snipers - personaly me, after work im mostly so tired and if i do have time for some DUSK 90210, chilling sniper game - its what helps me relax, but i never hastitate to pick up my Dragonfly Assault fited with two codebrackers and take main points befor my heavy armed team arrives, all r happy and i can go and "Chill" abit with my Genesis SR ;)
o7 gl&hf |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 13:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Oh, and Team Kills/Damage should be tracked stats for characters. There might also be a leaderboard which lists the best shooters, based on a ratio of enemy kills:friendly kills.
Talking of account suspensions/banning sounds serious, but to emphasize, that isn't something anyone who isn't a malicious TK'er would need to worry about. The system would obviously be designed such that it'd accommodate normal play, which would allow for a little bit of FF without it being a big deal. You'd take a small ISK/SP hit for it, but that'd just encourage most players to tighten up their shooting.
You could also avoid suspensions and thus moving closer to account banning by simply taking a voluntary break. If you've killed a handful of friendlies across multiple games within a day or two, you're being a huge F-up. At this point, the average player would either begin playing very cautiously, or they'd simply take a break until their marks are reset in a day or two. But again, to even get to this point we're talking about a bunch of friendlies having been gunned down without, apparently, any significant effort to play smarter. Most people will never get to this point, because after the first contract termination we'd realize that losing a ton of ISK and some SP isn't so great, and we'd start playing better as a result. |
Prangstar RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
63
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 15:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Friendly fire is a horrible idea for Dust and shouldnt even be considered as each time you lose a suit you will lose valuable ISK. so stop being dumb and remember how it screwed up entire games in MAG. You dont want that, so stop whining, call in a lav and crush someones ass if you want to teamkill. problem solved
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Coleus Rattus
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 16:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
While I like some points you make (similar to my own idea here, which didn't spark a discussion...)
But I disagree with the harsher consequences, like hardware bans. I think it would rather be in the vein of eve that if a player can afford to continuously teamkill, he should be able to do so.
Also, when there are strict consequences for TKs, they suddenly work both ways: One could always get TKed deliberately, buy running into grenades or into the line of fire, thus punihsing an "innocent" player. |
Coleus Rattus
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 16:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
EDIT: Sorry, double post |
semperfi1999
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
317
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 17:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
Best solution to both add FF and to make it so that people cant abuse it too badly....make FF only have an affect on shields. So allies cant kill you but can take off a good amount of your total HP. |
V1RONXSS
AL0NE Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 18:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
But if its will be implemented in eve like, ff in 0.0 sec systems or corp contracts, etc. The idea itself is not bad of course. |
Mode Torsen
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 02:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Decent proposal.
However, it would put additional strain on the servers. CCP stated earlier in the week that in EVE, evaluating the legality of every aggressive action in high sec space puts a much higher strain on the servers.
So battles in low sec space have far less lag than large battles in high sec space.
I think there is plenty of lag already. |
Heimdallr69
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
131
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 04:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
Aslong as the death doesnt count and you keep your dropsuits without losing anything then i dont have a problem with it...but if im using my balacs and get team killed for it why should i lose it? This is going to be terrible and soon people will realize that..people will lose tanks, they will lose proto and officer weapons from being team killed... |
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Breakin Stuff
Immobile Infantry
680
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 04:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
No. try again.
edit: betrayal, backstabbing and screwovers are a longstanding part of the EVE universe, and the EULA reflects it.
And permaban for teamkilling is absolutely dumb. No making the game carebear even when there's no easy mode. |
Breakin Stuff
Immobile Infantry
680
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 04:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Also:
In eve you lose a ship you have to buy a new one. just like fittings in DUST.
there's also no penalty for teamkilling in EVE unless you pop someone in highsec. then concord just blows your ship up.
there's no justification, given that, to have a suggestion of a permaban for TK to be seriously considered when entire FLEETS get awoxed all the time, some to malicious teamkilling.
I'll be disappointed if CCP puts in bans for shooting an idiot blueberry at any level. |
Paran Tadec
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
902
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 05:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
I cant stand dumb blueberries who jump in front of my stream of HMG hellfire death and soak up all the hate I am sending. |
Paran Tadec
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
902
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 05:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Also:
In eve you lose a ship you have to buy a new one. just like fittings in DUST.
there's also no penalty for teamkilling in EVE unless you pop someone in highsec. then concord just blows your ship up.
there's no justification, given that, to have a suggestion of a permaban for TK to be seriously considered when entire FLEETS get awoxed all the time, some to malicious teamkilling.
I'll be disappointed if CCP puts in bans for shooting an idiot blueberry at any level.
Um, you can attack and kill your own corp mates in EVE in highsec... |
Breakin Stuff
Immobile Infantry
680
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 05:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
true.
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amarrian victorian
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
52
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 05:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
or just keep friendly fire off in public matches. |
Breakin Stuff
Immobile Infantry
680
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 06:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
amarrian victorian wrote:or just keep friendly fire off in public matches.
I'm pretty sure this was the plan |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 07:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:amarrian victorian wrote:or just keep friendly fire off in public matches. I'm pretty sure this was the plan
From what I've been hearing yes, FF isn't going to be in pub matches, but it still doesn't stop the carebears from whining. And if FF was implemented like 5x Inf is suggesting, there will be a lot of suicide griefing. |
mollerz
s1ck3r Corp
73
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 07:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
I think you should get fined for a TK. If you run out of money you get ejected. All monies are paid to the victim of the TK.
Wanna kill a lame sniper on your team? You can pay him to do it.
IF it's an accident, then the victim can choose to DK the fine.
If you shoot or nade people by accident, it's up to them to claim the fine or forgive you. Or you can get hammered. Check your background and don't willy nilly toss nades all over.
100k ISK a TK would do wonders.
|
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 08:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
mollerz wrote:I think you should get fined for a TK. If you run out of money you get ejected. All monies are paid to the victim of the TK.
Wanna kill a lame sniper on your team? You can pay him to do it.
IF it's an accident, then the victim can choose to DK the fine.
If you shoot or nade people by accident, it's up to them to claim the fine or forgive you. Or you can get hammered. Check your background and don't willy nilly toss nades all over.
100k ISK a TK would do wonders.
I see lots of suicide griefing on this one as a get rich quick tactic. Hell, for 100K I'll happily jump in your killzone if you're on my team. It'll get me more ISK faster than actually playing the match. |
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Dwiin Kiin
Federation of Elsinore
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 15:16:00 -
[21] - Quote
I say that there would be 2 courses of fair action
1) only make AoE damage FF... like an grenade, strike or other such damage. Not penalizing the victim for buying a new suit because of of the death, but not penalizing the attacker either... and only if the attacker wasn't the victim.
could be abused by getting your friend to throw a grenade when u are low on health so that when you die your suit doesn't get lost.
2) full FF, but with penalties... Have a TK count negatively on your MP, like when you kill your team mate, have it say TK -50... and/or have it count as a Death on your K/D ratio
Both of these ideas still deducts your team's amount of clones so if you are killing your team mates, it acts as if you were on the other team getting the kills |
mollerz
s1ck3r Corp
73
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 16:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:
I see lots of suicide griefing on this one as a get rich quick tactic. Hell, for 100K I'll happily jump in your killzone if you're on my team. It'll get me more ISK faster than actually playing the match.
If you are getting suicide griefed you should get a bit more accurate with your fire, and don't use heavy weapons/nades on crowds with your own people in it. Same for orbital strikes. If you TK 4 people with an orbital, it's still your fault. |
mollerz
s1ck3r Corp
73
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 16:33:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dwiin Kiin wrote:I say that there would be 2 courses of fair action
FF, but with penalties... Have a TK count negatively on your MP, like when you kill your team mate, have it say TK -50... and/or have it count as a Death on your K/D ratio
That's a good idea for sure. A high TK rate will be a nice stigma and let everyone know to avoid him. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 03:11:00 -
[24] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:From what I've been hearing yes, FF isn't going to be in pub matches, but it still doesn't stop the carebears from whining. And if FF was implemented like 5x Inf is suggesting, there will be a lot of suicide griefing.
CCP has not mentioned FF being in public matches... which is why I made a thread suggesting a way it could be done without ruining Dust.
As for how much suicide griefing there'd be, I'm not sure. But I doubt there'd be "a lot", as even doing it on an alt to avoid the ISK/SP penalty, you'd still make it so that your main character would be walking a fine line during normal gameplay. If you TK a few people for a few games and land right on the borderline, and then go back to play your main character, if you're enough of a ****-up you could end up crossing the line with your main and being temporarily banned.
I don't really think anyone who plays Dust regularly would want to risk it. And I don't think non-Dust players would bother keeping Dust on their HD just to TK a few people a few times once every couple days.
Breakin Stuff wrote:No. try again.
edit: betrayal, backstabbing and screwovers are a longstanding part of the EVE universe, and the EULA reflects it.
And permaban for teamkilling is absolutely dumb. No making the game carebear even when there's no easy mode.
This isn't a thread about betrayal or backstabbing, it's a thread about making FF a regular part of the game without having it be abused. How EVE works doesn't factor into it.
Permaban for repeatedly and maliciously TK'ing people in Instant Battles would be the only way to keep people from doing it incessantly. Without people having their ability to play the game on the line, they'll just switch to an alt character or account and TK as much as they want on a throw-away character.
As I see it, your option is either to have no FF in Instant Battle matches at all, as it is currently, or to be "carebear", as you call it, and have FF in Instant Battles, but make it so that shooting your allies is punishable.
Personally, I prefer FF to no FF. But I guess I'm just a carebear.
Mode Torsen wrote:Decent proposal.
However, it would put additional strain on the servers
Well, every new gameplay feature puts additional strain on the servers. It's not my place to say whether such things are technically feasible, however.
mollerz wrote:All monies are paid to the victim of the TK.
Oops, I left this out. A percentage of the fitting cost should be reimbursed from the TK'er to their victim. Like 50% or so, even though 100% of the cost would be levied as a fine in additional to the regular penalties for simply damaging friendlies.
However, people should not be able to make money off of being TK'd, and in general FF should result in money simply being lost to the ether. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 04:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:From what I've been hearing yes, FF isn't going to be in pub matches, but it still doesn't stop the carebears from whining. And if FF was implemented like 5x Inf is suggesting, there will be a lot of suicide griefing. CCP has not mentioned FF being in public matches... which is why I made a thread suggesting a way it could be done without ruining Dust. As for how much suicide griefing there'd be, I'm not sure. But I doubt there'd be "a lot", as even doing it on an alt to avoid the ISK/SP penalty, you'd still make it so that your main character would be walking a fine line during normal gameplay. If you TK a few people for a few games and land right on the borderline, and then go back to play your main character, if you're enough of a ****-up you could end up crossing the line with your main and being temporarily banned. I don't really think anyone who plays Dust regularly would want to risk it. And I don't think non-Dust players would bother keeping Dust on their HD just to TK a few people a few times once every couple days. Breakin Stuff wrote:No. try again.
edit: betrayal, backstabbing and screwovers are a longstanding part of the EVE universe, and the EULA reflects it.
And permaban for teamkilling is absolutely dumb. No making the game carebear even when there's no easy mode. This isn't a thread about betrayal or backstabbing, it's a thread about making FF a regular part of the game without having it be abused. How EVE works doesn't factor into it. Permaban for repeatedly and maliciously TK'ing people in Instant Battles would be the only way to keep people from doing it incessantly. Without people having their ability to play the game on the line, they'll just switch to an alt character or account and TK as much as they want on a throw-away character. As I see it, your option is either to have no FF in Instant Battle matches at all, as it is currently, or to be "carebear", as you call it, and have FF in Instant Battles, but make it so that shooting your allies is punishable. Personally, I prefer FF to no FF. But I guess I'm just a carebear. Mode Torsen wrote:Decent proposal.
However, it would put additional strain on the servers Well, every new gameplay feature puts additional strain on the servers. It's not my place to say whether such things are technically feasible, however. mollerz wrote:All monies are paid to the victim of the TK. Oops, I left this out. A percentage of the fitting cost should be reimbursed from the TK'er to their victim. Like 50% or so, even though 100% of the cost would be levied as a fine in additional to the regular penalties for simply damaging friendlies. However, people should not be able to make money off of being TK'd, and in general FF should result in money simply being lost to the ether.
Penalty to mission payout fine. Forfeiture of salvage fine. Flag to neutral target fine. Penalty to wallet no. Banning shouldn't even be a passing thought. And how Eve works may not factor into Dust very much now, but it's still a factor, and will be more and more as time passes. |
KalOfTheRathi
CowTek
168
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 04:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
I was in a squad the other night and the idea from some FPS (which I don't remember, CoD?) was bullet reflection. The bullet reflects and does the damage on the shooter instead of the target.
Easy to implement, solves the issues and cost the shooter SP, Deaths, WP and ISK all in one quick solution. Limit it to weapons while not including OB or Vehicles could be good as well.
Otherwise, no. It is still a bad idea for DUST. For all the posturing this is not EVE, yet. It is not even running, yet. It is not even released, yet.
You want to destroy it before it is released? Enable FF. Plenty of teens would love to get into a free to play game, run the cheap suits and kill every blue by shooting them in the back until the game they want to play gets released or they get bored.
You want to convince Beta players not to bother with the stupid SP caps, the miserable slow accumulation of SP, the choked functionality just so they can get seven years of play time out of a one year game?
I suspect FF would help make the decision very clear for a number of them. Maybe even the EVE players. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 08:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Penalty to mission payout fine. Forfeiture of salvage fine. Flag to neutral target fine. Penalty to wallet no. Banning shouldn't even be a passing thought. And how Eve works may not factor into Dust very much now, but it's still a factor, and will be more and more as time passes.
How EVE works doesn't matter because it's a totally different kind of game, was my point.
Without serious consequences that work across accounts, and threaten those accounts, they should leave FF off in Instant Battle matches. Unless CCP is willing to ban people from the game for persistent, clearly malicious TK'ing, then they should only have FF on in corp battles. It'll be weird and kind of dumb, but unless CCP is willing to be serious about punishing TK'ing, then TK'ing would ruin the game.
So penalties to X and Y may as well not even exist if FF were on in Instant Battles but you wouldn't be banned for repeated TK'ing, because as I said my my OP, with bolding and underlining, without penalties that span accounts people will simply make alt characters or alt PSN accounts to TK with, and then Dust will be done. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 09:56:00 -
[28] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Penalty to mission payout fine. Forfeiture of salvage fine. Flag to neutral target fine. Penalty to wallet no. Banning shouldn't even be a passing thought. And how Eve works may not factor into Dust very much now, but it's still a factor, and will be more and more as time passes. How EVE works doesn't matter because it's a totally different kind of game, was my point. Without serious consequences that work across accounts, and threaten those accounts, they should leave FF off in Instant Battle matches. Unless CCP is willing to ban people from the game for persistent, clearly malicious TK'ing, then they should only have FF on in corp battles. It'll be weird and kind of dumb, but unless CCP is willing to be serious about punishing TK'ing, then TK'ing would ruin the game. So penalties to X and Y may as well not even exist if FF were on in Instant Battles but you wouldn't be banned for repeated TK'ing, because as I said my my OP, with bolding and underlining, without penalties that span accounts people will simply make alt characters or alt PSN accounts to TK with, and then Dust will be done.
You have your opinion and I have mine. We're obviously not going to change each other's mind. I'll agree to disagree. Next subject?
o7 |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 10:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:I was in a squad the other night and the idea from some FPS (which I don't remember, CoD?) was bullet reflection. The bullet reflects and does the damage on the shooter instead of the target.
Easy to implement, solves the issues and cost the shooter SP, Deaths, WP and ISK all in one quick solution. Limit it to weapons while not including OB or Vehicles could be good as well.
Otherwise, no. It is still a bad idea for DUST. For all the posturing this is not EVE, yet. It is not even running, yet. It is not even released, yet.
Actually it is running as Dust mercs can already affect faction warfare if they're in a corp that participates in faction warfare. Even this small piece has far reaching ripples you have yet to understand. So you're at least partially wrong there.
KalOfTheRathi wrote:You want to destroy it before it is released? Enable FF. Plenty of teens would love to get into a free to play game, run the cheap suits and kill every blue by shooting them in the back until the game they want to play gets released or they get bored.
You want to convince Beta players not to bother with the stupid SP caps, the miserable slow accumulation of SP, the choked functionality just so they can get seven years of play time out of a one year game?
I suspect FF would help make the decision very clear for a number of them. Maybe even the EVE players.
I hate to say this, but it appears that this is so obviously not the game for you. |
Jason Punk
DUST University Ivy League
71
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 16:11:00 -
[30] - Quote
Friendly fire is something...like in Eve...that should require some kind of zone or level of risk-awareness. Bringing friendly fire to high-sec would severely jepardise (if not outright eliminate) a large swath of incoming, new players. So it would also create a very target-rich enviroment for trolls and because of the isk-stakes in combat, would have the overall effect of a vastly steeper learning curve for every new player.
However, I believe the more you explore outside of carebear-empire space, the more these rules should be relaxed. And in 0.0 there will be virtually no rules but the rule of isk and diplomacy. But that is something everyone should look out of their ships or on their holo maps and immediately recognize....Lawless space...no codes...very risky and very dangerous.
"Trust no one" is for 0.0, not High-Sec |
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