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Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 00:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
I came across this discrepancy while reading a thread about some tank user or other whining about how militia infantry gear is too close to Standard. When I looked at it, I also went on to look at the rest of the suits, right up to proto, and due to leveling off the HP values a few builds back all are the same with the exception of a slot here or there. Meanwhile, the difference between Tank Standard and Tank Advanced is usually 600 HP, a few slots, faster regeneration, and an implicit damage bonus.
When they leveled HP, they gave nothing back, and didn't even reduce cost. So WHY should we skill into anything beyond standard unless we REALLY need a bit more PG or CPU? And even then is it worth the cost? The prototype Heavy suit, the VK. 1, costs MORE than a TANK. And you have to replace that several times a battle, plus modules and weapons, because of the pisspoor HP values when compared to costs.
To those of you who read that rant who know where I'm going, and those of you who skipped to here because you saw this: TLDR The advanced and prototype Dropsuits need to get their greater HP values BACK and get an IMPLICIT BONUS like the Advanced Tanks have their 1.5x multiplier to damage.
Currently there are two general suit types per class, a Armor and Slot version and a Shield and Speed version, to generalize. Heavy, give one suit an HMG boost and the other type a Forge boost. Give Logi a bonus to Repair, or maybe a greater boost to hacking to the second type. Scout can get speed bonus, shotgun bonus, knife bonus, there are so many little niches that could be empowered by a suit that explicitly boosts them for this fellow. As for Assault, give him a bonus with the Rifles or Sidearms, or maybe a mix of both(SMG and AR for one, Scrambler and LR for the other)
Another bonus to this is that we can see at a glance what the person is most likely to do. The guy in the Scout suit with the sharp, angular features will most likely rush you to knife your eyes out, for example.
EDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDIT
IT LOOKS LIKE I NEED TO BE BLUNT AS A STONE AND CLEAR AS A DIAMOND.
Return some HP to more advanced suits. Give suits a buff that works like ships skill boosts in EVE. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
435
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 02:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
If I'm going to buy a Scout Vk.0, it should be made of better materials which would grant it more HP. |
Ulysses Knapse
Nuevo Atlas Corporation
73
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 02:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yes, the Prototype Fatboy Suit does cost more than a standard HAV, but what you fail to realize is that it costs much less than a HAV of it's own Tech Level (Marauder).
Also, Marauders don't get anywhere near a 1.5x Bonus. They get a 20% bonus at level V skill.
Though I agree using anything above average is a waste of resources. |
Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 02:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:If I'm going to buy a Scout Vk.0, it should be made of better materials which would grant it more HP.
Once upon a time they did, but because of the price and ease of access everyone and their mother used them. As a result the prices went up and all suits were standardized, thusly we have outrageous prices for one or two extra slots (heavy being particularly worthless in this case).
Personally, I think they should have base bonus stats. Stuff that reflects their styles from Eve Online.
Amarr Heavy Standard: +2% armor HP per skill level Amarr Heavy Advanced: +3% armor HP per skill level Amarr Heavy Prototype: +5% armor HP per skill level.
Just saying, an Amarr Heavy type I only has 600 hp or so (don't know the actual number) so that whole 60 additional HP on the standard suit wouldn't be that much of an impact. It'd be like tacking on an additional armor plate, but considering the sheer amount of skill points required to get the skill to level 5 (2,486,880 skill points, an entire month of hitting your daily cap) it would be a worthwhile investment.
Besides.. Who the hell is going to dish out the money for a Prototype suit unless they have EVE funding for that -ONE- extra slot..? |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 02:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Yes, the Prototype Fatboy Suit does cost more than a standard HAV, but what you fail to realize is that it costs much less than a HAV of it's own Tech Level (Marauder).
Also, they don't get anywhere near a 1.5x Bonus. They get a 20% bonus at level V skill.
That's not the point. If I'm paying more than I would for a tank for something that is barely better than a freebie suit then why should I bother? Also there isn't a Prototype tank, just Militia, Standard and Advanced, unless the Covert ones are Prototype level. AS for the 1.5 bonus, it is supposedly an implicit bonus to the mosel like the Logi's hacking bonus. Never shows up anywhere in the game, but you can find it in the patchnotes and forum posts. And just l;ike the hacking madules and skills, the Marauder skill just adds on top of that.
But we digress, this isn't something to attack tanks, so if your angle is DEFEND MAH TANK, chill. |
Ulysses Knapse
Nuevo Atlas Corporation
73
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 03:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Yes, the Prototype Fatboy Suit does cost more than a standard HAV, but what you fail to realize is that it costs much less than a HAV of it's own Tech Level (Marauder).
Also, they don't get anywhere near a 1.5x Bonus. They get a 20% bonus at level V skill. That's not the point. If I'm paying more than I would for a tank for something that is barely better than a freebie suit then why should I bother? Also there isn't a Prototype tank, just Militia, Standard and Advanced, unless the Covert ones are Prototype level. AS for the 1.5 bonus, it is supposedly an implicit bonus to the mosel like the Logi's hacking bonus. Never shows up anywhere in the game, but you can find it in the patchnotes and forum posts. And just l;ike the hacking madules and skills, the Marauder skill just adds on top of that. But we digress, this isn't something to attack tanks, so if your angle is DEFEND MAH TANK, chill. I realize that, I was just stating that more advanced small things are fine costing more than less advanced big things, so long as the pricing remains coherent. For example, in EVE, Assault Ships cost more than Cruisers, but Heavy Assault Ships cost as much to Cruisers as Assault Ships cost to Frigates. |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
392
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 03:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think the fat suit should add 50 hp for advanced and 100 more hp on proto and keep the slots the same. that extra bit of buffer is all the suit needs to make proto worth it without breaking it.
I don't think the other suits need too much tweaking. I'm fine with proto gear not being something that' you should always use it if you have access to it. I'd rather proto be saved for those really big contracts, or extremely important strategic battles that are worth the extra ISK. |
Ulysses Knapse
Nuevo Atlas Corporation
73
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 03:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:I think the fat suit should add 50 hp for advanced and 100 more hp on proto and keep the slots the same. that extra bit of buffer is all the suit needs to make proto worth it without breaking it.
I don't think the other suits need too much tweaking. I'm fine with proto gear not being something that' you should always use it if you have access to it. I'd rather proto be saved for those really big contracts, or extremely important strategic battles that are worth the extra ISK. That's a little bit much. +100 HP for Prototype Suits? Nah man, I shouldn't need all three of my grenades to kill a Fatboy. |
RECON BY FIRE
BetaMax.
51
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 04:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
So if standard gear is enough to do well in the game then why do you see such a rush to proto gear already? Do you know how many Killswitch Geks and the aur version of the proto HMG Ive been killed with already? People are spending real money on proto equivelant weapons just to get an edge on the leaderboards without even having a suit to fully support it yet! And you want to tell me theres no reason to go proto? BS. Also, if there is no reason to run proto stuff then why did everyone and their mother who could run proto do so in almost every single match they played in before reset? Because it is worth it. |
Tarquin Markel
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
85
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 05:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
The reason to run prototype gear is the same as it is to run high-tier stuff (Arbalest, etc.) in Eve: a small, crucial edge. More slots means more modifiers on that "identical" base; more power grid and CPU can be applied towards all sorts of things.
It works, gents. Maybe prototype's never going to be worth it for public matches, where the reward seems to top out at 200k ISK or so, but we're not going to be stuck there forever. |
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Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
392
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 05:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Talos Alomar wrote:I think the fat suit should add 50 hp for advanced and 100 more hp on proto and keep the slots the same. that extra bit of buffer is all the suit needs to make proto worth it without breaking it.
I don't think the other suits need too much tweaking. I'm fine with proto gear not being something that' you should always use it if you have access to it. I'd rather proto be saved for those really big contracts, or extremely important strategic battles that are worth the extra ISK. That's a little bit much. +100 HP for Prototype Suits? Nah man, I shouldn't need all three of my grenades to kill a Fatboy.
just look at it this way - It's less of a buff than adding another mod slot. right now the proto heavy doesn't seem worth it just for an extra high slot over the advanced, so it needs something. adding more slots could easily render the heavy OP, so i figure this would be a simple way to increase the appeal of the proto. all i propose is just adding less hp than a complex plate to a very expensive suit. |
Zat Earthshatter
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
304
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 05:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
hmm... something to give Dropsuits something better to work for? The first thing that comes to mind are MTACs (confirmed - future). Even if they are vehicles, they are sufficiently humanoid to have their performance improved by using a dropsuit's neural feedback+operating system. Thus, I think they should require at least some skill in dropsuit trees before using them.
I had a thread to this effect, but i believe it was biomassed after it fell behind a certain page (not sure how far these pages go on DUST forums) |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 07:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
RECON BY FIRE wrote:So if standard gear is enough to do well in the game then why do you see such a rush to proto gear already? Do you know how many Killswitch Geks and the aur version of the proto HMG Ive been killed with already? People are spending real money on proto equivelant weapons just to get an edge on the leaderboards without even having a suit to fully support it yet! And you want to tell me theres no reason to go proto? BS. Also, if there is no reason to run proto stuff then why did everyone and their mother who could run proto do so in almost every single match they played in before reset? Because it is worth it.
You seem to be misunderstanding me, or just simply cannot read, or maybe you forgot to read the heading which said dropsuits and not guns, and hell, you even AGREED WITH ME right here
'People are spending real money on proto equivelant weapons just to get an edge on the leaderboards without even having a suit to fully support it yet!'
I said Prototype and Advanced DROPSUITS. NOT GUNS.
What I'm saying is that DEFENSE doesn't scale anywhere near as good as OFFENSE. People are skilling into Prototype GUNS, a 2x skill. Suits are a 8x skill, and even then having a prototype suit does you shitall without having modules, which is another 2x to 5x skill. Prototype, or even Advanced Dropsuits, just don't have enough to justify their unlocking, let alone usage, whereas people are going to use their AURUM and Prototype weapons at all times, and be extremely upset if they can't afford them any longer. I am simply asking that the SUITS actually DO something implicitly of themselves, not just allow you to pile more crap on them.
Hell, the fact that you stated yourself that everyone is skilling into guns first shows that even you agree that Dropsuits aren't worth it. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 07:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zat Earthshatter wrote:hmm... something to give Dropsuits something better to work for? The first thing that comes to mind are MTACs (confirmed - future). Even if they are vehicles, they are sufficiently humanoid to have their performance improved by using a dropsuit's neural feedback+operating system. Thus, I think they should require at least some skill in dropsuit trees before using them.
I had a thread to this effect, but i believe it was biomassed after it fell behind a certain page (not sure how far these pages go on DUST forums)
This isn't a solution. It's just making the skill a prerequisite, you may as well say that you need Heavy Suits III to unlock HAV skills will make Heavy suits better. It just forces people to learn the skill, it doesn't make the skill or the associated suits better or more useful. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 10:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:I came across this discrepancy while reading a thread about some tank user or other whining about how militia infantry gear is too close to Standard. When I looked at it, I also went on to look at the rest of the suits, right up to proto, and due to leveling off the HP values a few builds back all are the same with the exception of a slot here or there. Meanwhile, the difference between Tank Standard and Tank Advanced is usually 600 HP, a few slots, faster regeneration, and an implicit damage bonus.
When they leveled HP, they gave nothing back, and didn't even reduce cost. So WHY should we skill into anything beyond standard unless we REALLY need a bit more PG or CPU? And even then is it worth the cost? The prototype Heavy suit, the VK. 1, costs MORE than a TANK. And you have to replace that several times a battle, plus modules and weapons, because of the pisspoor HP values when compared to costs.
To those of you who read that rant who know where I'm going, and those of you who skipped to here because you saw this: TLDR The advanced and prototype Dropsuits need to get their greater HP values BACK and get an IMPLICIT BONUS like the Advanced Tanks have their 1.5x multiplier to damage.
Currently there are two general suit types per class, a Armor and Slot version and a Shield and Speed version, to generalize. Heavy, give one suit an HMG boost and the other type a Forge boost. Give Logi a bonus to Repair, or maybe a greater boost to hacking to the second type. Scout can get speed bonus, shotgun bonus, knife bonus, there are so many little niches that could be empowered by a suit that explicitly boosts them for this fellow. As for Assault, give him a bonus with the Rifles or Sidearms, or maybe a mix of both(SMG and AR for one, Scrambler and LR for the other)
Another bonus to this is that we can see at a glance what the person is most likely to do. The guy in the Scout suit with the sharp, angular features will most likely rush you to knife your eyes out, for example.
Oh there are still plenty of reasons to skill dropsuits... it's a no brainer. |
Martin0 Brancaleone
Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS.
191
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 10:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Just add bonuses to the dopsuit skills. Like: Amarr Heavy dropsuit skill bonus: 2% armor hp per level. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 10:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
Martin0 Brancaleone wrote:Just add bonuses to the dopsuit skills. Like: Amarr Heavy dropsuit skill bonus: 2% armor hp per level.
Agreed, many people said that for a while now. Add a specific bonuses to skilling up suits BUT with those bonuses only available when using the suit and not a different one.
So for your example, when using an assault suit, you wouldnt have 6% armor bonus even if you have lvl 3 Amarr heavy skill trained. |
Breakin Stuff
Immobile Infantry
680
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 10:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
Martin0 Brancaleone wrote:Just add bonuses to the dopsuit skills. Like: Amarr Heavy dropsuit skill bonus: 2% armor hp per level.
This needs to happen anyway to differentiate racial suit types.
But to the OP the reason to level dropsuits is not for the base stats. no the baseline is not significantly better but the synergy between your dropsuit fitting and module skills, as well as skills that raise the fitted dropsuits stats overall is where the benefit is found. This is one commonality between EVE and dust that holds true.
My BPO logibro suit was ok. the advanced logi with advanced modules, reppers and weaponry was nothing short of phenomenal, because I raised the skills that EVE players would peg as "cores" to a minimum of 3 each. a prototype dropsuit with advanced module skills brings to the table more PG/CPU which lets you fit all proto modules.
The difference between each tier doesnt look like much on paper but the skill and module synergies make the difference visible in practice. But a proto without said synergies is pretty much worthless against a raven assault. only marginally more useful.
I tested this with aurum and bought proto equivalent fits in the days before reset. The difference was noticable and pronounced between tiers, but there wasnt a significant jump from advanced to AUR proto because the synergy skills were not higher. |
crazy space 2100046106
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
879
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 08:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
well in eve online each level of minmatar frigate buffs ALL ships via ship bonuses per level. I.. um.. am not really sure why leveling up dropsuit skill give no bonus per level to al suits ...
Having scout at level 5 should even make your militia suit a little better. Just like in eve. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 05:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
crazy space 2100046106 wrote:well in eve online each level of minmatar frigate buffs ALL ships via ship bonuses per level. I.. um.. am not really sure why leveling up dropsuit skill give no bonus per level to al suits ...
Having scout at level 5 should even make your militia suit a little better. Just like in eve.
I am aware what ship hulls do in EVE online, and I suggested as such near the end of the OP. I thank someone for finally getting it, but it appears I have to beat people over the head with a point to get them to notice it... |
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Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
435
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 05:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
crazy space 2100046106 wrote:well in eve online each level of minmatar frigate buffs ALL ships via ship bonuses per level. I.. um.. am not really sure why leveling up dropsuit skill give no bonus per level to al suits ...
Having scout at level 5 should even make your militia suit a little better. Just like in eve. Well that's what Field Mechanics and Shield Control are for. Skills increasing specific suit HP across the board is a bad idea because then, lets say Heavies, would run rampant in Militia suits acting as if they were running Advanced gear. We just need higher tier gear to have more HP so it would give people a reason to upgrade suits.
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Snagman 313
Carbon 7
41
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Posted - 2013.01.16 09:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:crazy space 2100046106 wrote:well in eve online each level of minmatar frigate buffs ALL ships via ship bonuses per level. I.. um.. am not really sure why leveling up dropsuit skill give no bonus per level to al suits ...
Having scout at level 5 should even make your militia suit a little better. Just like in eve. Well that's what Field Mechanics and Shield Control are for. Skills increasing specific suit HP across the board is a bad idea because then, lets say Heavies, would run rampant in Militia suits acting as if they were running Advanced gear. We just need higher tier gear to have more HP so it would give people a reason to upgrade suits.
I agree with this. A possibility I have been thinking about would be for levels 1,3 and 5 of the different suits would give you a specific bonus but not directly increasing health but increasing survivability such as:-
Scout 2%,3% and 5% in speed or Sig reduction
Logi 2%,3% and 5% in Healing whatever the Logibros would like (These dudes have a hard enough time, give them some love)
Assault 2%,3% and 5% in shield resistance or regen
Heavy 2%,3% and 5% in in armour reistance or regen
All of these would be across the board for all suits like the skills in eve.
As for increasing the shield and armour on the suits I think the basic suits are ok and I cant really comment on anything other than heavy suits but the heavy A suit could maybe do with another 50 armour and the same again with the proto VK.0 and with the B series another 75 shield and the same again for the VK.1, thoughts?
Regards
Snag |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 09:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
You get additional slots with extra CPU/PG to run more advanced modules in them. The difference between the durability and weapons capacity of a prorotype suit versus a standard suit is very significant. If you don't understand why being able to fit two more shield extenders and another armor plating along with a more advanced weapon might give you an advantage in a fight, I'm really not sure what to tell you. Prototype suits are objectively superior to standard suits, and you can very easily tell when you're fighting someone with a prototype suit and equally advanced modules/weaponry.
Whether you think it's worth the cost is your opinion, but what else are you going to use your ISK for if not to give you an advantage in a fight? |
NovaShadowStorm
The Southern Legion
63
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 11:23:00 -
[24] - Quote
How is it not worth skilling into suits? You get more CPU/Grid and in some cases more slots to use. I don't know about you but I've run across players that are near unkillable since they've been wearing proto suits and stuffed their slots full of shield expanders, regulators and armour mods. Well either that or stacked damage modifiers. Hell before the last wipe I was running advanced and was hard to kill due to the tank I had in my slots. Point is more CPU and Grid is good it lets you shove more in. As for overall suit health thats for you to balance with the stuff you cram into it. It's all about how you tank it, you shouldn't have to expect more lest begin the "This suit is too OP because of it's skill we need this we need that blah blah blah". Fit smarter to stay alive and more CPU and Grid help with that alot. |
Red Dot 24601-HA
S.e.V.e.N.
36
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 19:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
Uhhmm...I agree with Nova....Plaese don't throw things at me!!!! |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 19:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
NovaShadowStorm wrote:How is it not worth skilling into suits? You get more CPU/Grid and in some cases more slots to use. I don't know about you but I've run across players that are near unkillable since they've been wearing proto suits and stuffed their slots full of shield expanders, regulators and armour mods. Well either that or stacked damage modifiers. Hell before the last wipe I was running advanced and was hard to kill due to the tank I had in my slots. Point is more CPU and Grid is good it lets you shove more in. As for overall suit health thats for you to balance with the stuff you cram into it. It's all about how you tank it, you shouldn't have to expect more lest begin the "This suit is too OP because of it's skill we need this we need that blah blah blah". Fit smarter to stay alive and more CPU and Grid help with that alot.
Yes, but those are things the suit helps to DO.
Think EVE. I have a Thrasher. I can fit it pretty well, a few things here or there. then I decide to train the Destroyers skill, and even though I'm STILL USING THE SAME THRASHER I get some inherent bonuses from increasing the skill.
You make a good point, but it is the WRONG POINT. You're saying that a Thrasher has less fitting space than a Hurricane, so I should skill into a Hurricane as a matter of course. My complaint isn't about the SUIT but the SKILL, it doesn't DO anything but unlock, unlike the EVE versions which don't do anything IMPLICITLY, but the SHIPS THEMSELVES have bonuses that draw from the skill. Snagman got the idea, as did a few others.
If anyone sees this as unfair, then I guess we should remove the skill bonuses from the weapons skills, the shield and armor skills, and the skills that exist just to boost your stats, like Circuitry and Infantry Mechanics. I've seen people whine about how the suit skills doing anything is 'unfair', then they go off to whine about a weapon skill being too weak. I'm sick of the double standard and the 'suits have been like this forever why change?' mentality. Suits skills need to get better if your making them an 8x skill, when so many 1x and 2x skills have no purpose beyond having a buff attached. |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
136
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 19:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
I like the premise for your idea. The balancing act that must take place to get it right is another issue all together. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 19:44:00 -
[28] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:I like the premise for your idea. The balancing act that must take place to get it right is another issue all together.
Hey, they're still balancing the ship bonuses in EVE, but it works over there All it requires on our part is some patience and bitching, and we do those enough already. |
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