DUST Search - [SUGGESTION] A way to fix SP once and for all

Laurent Cazaderon wrote:

Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote:

I don't think this will work for the FPS community. We like immediate rewards for our actions.

TBH, what would be the difference between full passive SP, and the current system where you end up winning 50 SP after 4 games ? Imo, none. Especially when 90% of the active SP you earn are given to you based on the time you spend on the battlefield. Those daily 27k of active SP (or 40 with boost) arent a reward for your performance or your bravery. They are 90% passive SP won for just "being there"

So, where's the difference between that and a 100% passive skilling system. If active SP had never existed, no one would have even thought of it as mandatory in this.

Full passive would avoid feeling like dust is a kind of job someday and you just HAVE TO log in to get your SP. Me, I can't play enough every day (or at all some day) to get my share of SP. So what do i do ? I idle games while doing what my IRL life demands... And i'm not the only one doing this, and it's only gonna get worse with more and more players comin in soon.

With a passive only system, that wouldnt be a problem.

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Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 363	Posted - 2013.01.12 20:18:00 - [1] - Quote We've heard the complaints before the daily SP cap was put in place. We've heard the moans after the daily SP cap. We've heard the suggestions to cap that way, this way, SP pools and baths and beyond - yet they will just create another problem and even more QQ. Here's a simple suggestion to fix it: make all SP gain passive. No active SP at all. Nuts? Not so. Back when I played EVE we only had passive SP (not sure if that's still the case). It worked. It was simple. Casuals will still be left behind like most beta testers somewhat arrogantly seem to think is the Way Things Should Be. But the chasm between casuals and those who start months after launch, and vets and hardcore players won't be as bad as it is with passive and active SP accummulation. With passive-only SP gain nobody needs to feel bad about missing a day of playing, or compelled to play one more game just to hit a cap - most of us play for fun, not to have a second job. And those who do want that job won't quit playing for the day/week when they hit a cap like many do now. SP is not the purpose of the game, it is merely a means to an end, just one of many. The end purpose is to enjoy melting faces, gain territory, and socialize. Hardcore players, nolifers and those who must have the biggest e-peen can still measure it with ISK or WP - these are what matter in Dust after all. We do need better in-game mechanics to track your ISK loss/gain per match and WP gain, though. CCP will still be able to charge people for passive boosters and AUR gear so that the game becomes financially viable. Note that I'm not talking about AFK farming which is unfortunately currently possible, but passive SP gain which happens at a rate of x SP per second whether you're in-game, idling in menus, or sipping mai tais on a beach in Boracay.
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 176	Posted - 2013.01.12 20:24:00 - [2] - Quote I don't think this will work for the FPS community. We like immediate rewards for our actions.
Reimus Klinsman BetaMax. 320	Posted - 2013.01.12 20:26:00 - [3] - Quote Make your SP pool increase with passive SP, and you can tap into it through actively playing. That way you are constantly gaining SP, you just haven't unlocked it yet.
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 363	Posted - 2013.01.12 22:55:00 - [4] - Quote Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote: I don't think this will work for the FPS community. We like immediate rewards for our actions. I've been mainly an FPS player since Wolfenstein 3D came out. You are right, but it goes farther than that: us FPS players are so used to immediate rewards that the norm was to have no unlocks at all; everything was unlocked when we first launched multiplayer. XP is a relatively recent phenomenon in multiplayer FPS space, and not welcomed by many FPS players, including me. It doesn't fit games like Battlefield or Killzone series, but is a slightly better fit for an MMOFPS. Nevertheless, it's not going anywhere from Dust, so I'd rather spend the time improving it rather than discussing its merits. Back on topic. As mentioned in the OP, the ones needing immediate rewards get ISK and WP. ISK is a very tangible reward that even the most twitchy CoD player will grok from the first game onward when they realize they need ISK to fair better. Its value should be better brought forward by CCP in its marketing material - SP should take back seat. Also, WP is another metric to rank players who need it. I've argued elsewhere that the game shouldn't even report an antiquated metric like KDR at the end of a round so that people would concentrate on what matters: WP, earning ISK, and winning territory.
Blondie Roads Imperfects Negative-Feedback 7	Posted - 2013.01.15 21:31:00 - [5] - Quote Reimus Klinsman wrote: Make your SP pool increase with passive SP, and you can tap into it through actively playing. That way you are constantly gaining SP, you just haven't unlocked it yet. ^^^^^ This is genius ...problem solved.
James Blaise Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 35	Posted - 2013.01.16 02:37:00 - [6] - Quote Instant rewards, so Isks and salvage isnt enough?
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion 2	Posted - 2013.01.16 03:05:00 - [7] - Quote I do think this is one of the better solution out there but there are a few issues with it. 1. CCP has been advertising the active side of things for a while so they'd need to renege on that or develope some other system that is active. 2. With entirely passive SP I would expect people to start farming many accounts to start accumulating SP for alts, friends and sale.
Zat Earthkiller Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2013.01.16 08:56:00 - [8] - Quote SP is a tricky one to work with - Ideally, we should be training skills at approximately the same rate as their equivalents in EVE, but "how" is a difficult thing with a mix of passive and active gains. I propose two changes in the system: changing the active cap to matches played that day, and using ISK/looted implants to decide on your method of SP gains. With the matches played cap instead of total SP, gaining active SP is more about earning your keep in the battles you get, than simply playing to the cap. The implants allow the less-skilled to keep pace. With the implants, we add a new slot and give two choices for your ISK: one that increases the matches-played cap, and one that gives passive SP faster. >With the "Active" set, your potential for total daily SP will be higher than the passive-implants, but you need to be consistently acting as a team player and winning. >With the "Passive" set, you earn a steadier flow of SP, but earn a portion less than the maximum an active-implant user can attain. The result? we maintain the hybrid system, favor player skill as an FPS naturally should, but allow those less-dangerous players to keep some measure of pace. As for anti-pubstomping measures, I will follow up this post with that suggestion
Zat Earthkiller Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2013.01.16 09:07:00 - [9] - Quote Now, my prior suggestion can do the job, but not when corps abuse the mechanics to corner un-corped "randoms" and spawncamp them into the planet core every time - That's not the intent. Here are the steps that have to be taken to prevent this. Firstly, spawn issues are known, but they need to be fixed before an accurate picture of active-earning SP can be gained. Only then can we tweak the system until it works. Second, an organized corp-team should be spending their time fighting other corps, not randoms. Behold the wardec. Once war is declared between EVE corps, DUST corps should get contracted to fight over PI in a similar fashion as FacWar - but for now, with only Precision Strike support. Lastly, should an organized team (visible in the code, i'm sure) fight in a "randoms" match, slash all SP gains in that match by 50%, while still counting towards the matches-played cap as a full battle. Those steps can, and should, be taken before implementing any tweak to the SP, including my own suggestion
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2013.01.16 09:12:00 - [10] - Quote SoTa PoP wrote: Too many threads on SP - each one has the same idea that is just BRILLIANT imo. All SP un-earned from 1 day is pushed into day 2 - where it'll continue to accumulate to the next days cap until a certain day of the week is hit - where then it will reset. It balances out almost every complaint of hardcore vs casual. Hell - I'm sure even hardcores could get behind this idea. I didn't see any thread discussing this one idea as a solution rather then SP in general - so I'm putting it forth for discussion to see if there's a side of this idea I don't see. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=50176&find=unread I want this.

Umbat Boki Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 157	Posted - 2013.01.16 10:24:00 - [11] - Quote You're doing it wrong. You throw random ideas and then try to understand why it works or not. Try to think from up to bottom: from general purpose to details. What is SP system for? What it should achieve? The main reason of SP system and DUST is to get money from players while providing them with some entertainment. In P2P model it's quite simple. Users pay money to play your game for month or several. In F2P model you need to sell something in-game: passive boosters, active boosters, AUR items and so on. By making passive-SP-only system active booster just doesn't exist. Passive booster in passive-SP-only system will result in huge rage from players. AUR items alone won't be enough to fund the project. You need to attract players to play every day, use boosters and AUR items. Otherwise your project is dead.
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2013.01.16 10:45:00 - [12] - Quote Reimus Klinsman wrote: Make your SP pool increase with passive SP, and you can tap into it through actively playing. That way you are constantly gaining SP, you just haven't unlocked it yet. I've suggested this a few times. +1
Carl Hauser 2100381593 Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 46	Posted - 2013.01.16 11:23:00 - [13] - Quote Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote: I don't think this will work for the FPS community. We like immediate rewards for our actions. Well we already have gamemodes where you don't get SP. As far as I know corp batlles and FE battles do not give any SP. And considering that these two will get more important the further the integration whith EVE goes on there will be many battles without SP. I am a bit concerned that these important gameparts become quite unatractive for a lot of players that only hunt for active SP. IMO the focus should go from SP moreover to ISK and Salvage regarding batllerewards and maybe some incentives through warpoints. Introducing a passive only skillsystem could shift the focus towards this. Right now a lot of people just stop once they hit the cap what is sad. But to make this work the salvage system must be more rewarding than it is now...
Sev Alcatraz Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 185	Posted - 2013.01.16 11:57:00 - [14] - Quote you going from cookies (the sp we get now) to crumbs (passive sp) bad idea people won't like that at all
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 363	Posted - 2013.01.16 12:29:00 - [15] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: 1. CCP has been advertising the active side of things for a while so they'd need to renege on that or develope some other system that is active. A non-issue. Only closed beta testers know that, and a handful of those who follow the game development. The vast majority of upcoming Dust players haven't even heard of the game, yet. Garth Mandra wrote: 2. With entirely passive SP I would expect people to start farming many accounts to start accumulating SP for alts, friends and sale. You can already do that.
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 363	Posted - 2013.01.16 12:36:00 - [16] - Quote Umbat Boki wrote: You're doing it wrong. You throw random ideas and then try to understand why it works or not. Try to think from up to bottom: from general purpose to details. What is SP system for? What it should achieve? The main reason of SP system and DUST is to get money from players while providing them with some entertainment. In P2P model it's quite simple. Users pay money to play your game for month or several. In F2P model you need to sell something in-game: passive boosters, active boosters, AUR items and so on. By making passive-SP-only system active booster just doesn't exist. Passive booster in passive-SP-only system will result in huge rage from players. AUR items alone won't be enough to fund the project. You need to attract players to play every day, use boosters and AUR items. Otherwise your project is dead. As stated in the OP, CCP will still be able to sell passive boosters for rl money to fund further game development. You claim CCP needs "to attract players to play every day", yet fail to explain why it is necessary. Playing 2-3 hours every single day will result in burnout, turning the game into a second job, and never-ending and justified complaints that Dust is for hardcore gamers only. Players are already raising a huge rage about the current SP system, and for a good reason. Passive-only has proven to work elsewhere.
Carl Hauser 2100381593 Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 46	Posted - 2013.01.16 14:14:00 - [17] - Quote Sev Alcatraz wrote: you going from cookies (the sp we get now) to crumbs (passive sp) bad idea people won't like that at all As long as the numbers are the same does it really matter if you get the SP active or passive? Of course the numbers should be equal or a bit higher with passive SP.
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2013.01.16 15:34:00 - [18] - Quote Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote: I don't think this will work for the FPS community. We like immediate rewards for our actions. TBH, what would be the difference between full passive SP, and the current system where you end up winning 50 SP after 4 games ? Imo, none. Especially when 90% of the active SP you earn are given to you based on the time you spend on the battlefield. Those daily 27k of active SP (or 40 with boost) arent a reward for your performance or your bravery. They are 90% passive SP won for just "being there" So, where's the difference between that and a 100% passive skilling system. If active SP had never existed, no one would have even thought of it as mandatory in this. Full passive would avoid feeling like dust is a kind of job someday and you just HAVE TO log in to get your SP. Me, I can't play enough every day (or at all some day) to get my share of SP. So what do i do ? I idle games while doing what my IRL life demands... And i'm not the only one doing this, and it's only gonna get worse with more and more players comin in soon. With a passive only system, that wouldnt be a problem.
Carl Hauser 2100381593 Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 46	Posted - 2013.01.17 11:20:00 - [19] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote: I don't think this will work for the FPS community. We like immediate rewards for our actions. TBH, what would be the difference between full passive SP, and the current system where you end up winning 50 SP after 4 games ? Imo, none. Especially when 90% of the active SP you earn are given to you based on the time you spend on the battlefield. Those daily 27k of active SP (or 40 with boost) arent a reward for your performance or your bravery. They are 90% passive SP won for just "being there" So, where's the difference between that and a 100% passive skilling system. If active SP had never existed, no one would have even thought of it as mandatory in this. Full passive would avoid feeling like dust is a kind of job someday and you just HAVE TO log in to get your SP. Me, I can't play enough every day (or at all some day) to get my share of SP. So what do i do ? I idle games while doing what my IRL life demands... And i'm not the only one doing this, and it's only gonna get worse with more and more players comin in soon. With a passive only system, that wouldnt be a problem. I totally agree. Plus an all passive aproach would make corp battles and faction war battles (which are right now corp battles) more attractive. I think it would also make skilling a bit more tactical because it becomes more important how you skill instead of how much you can skill.
137H4RGIC WarRavens 26	Posted - 2013.01.17 11:29:00 - [20] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: SoTa PoP wrote: Too many threads on SP - each one has the same idea that is just BRILLIANT imo. All SP un-earned from 1 day is pushed into day 2 - where it'll continue to accumulate to the next days cap until a certain day of the week is hit - where then it will reset. It balances out almost every complaint of hardcore vs casual. Hell - I'm sure even hardcores could get behind this idea. I didn't see any thread discussing this one idea as a solution rather then SP in general - so I'm putting it forth for discussion to see if there's a side of this idea I don't see. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=50176&find=unread I want this. /signed

Returner Tekki ZionTCD Legacy Rising 24	Posted - 2013.01.17 11:36:00 - [21] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: SoTa PoP wrote: Too many threads on SP - each one has the same idea that is just BRILLIANT imo. All SP un-earned from 1 day is pushed into day 2 - where it'll continue to accumulate to the next days cap until a certain day of the week is hit - where then it will reset. It balances out almost every complaint of hardcore vs casual. Hell - I'm sure even hardcores could get behind this idea. I didn't see any thread discussing this one idea as a solution rather then SP in general - so I'm putting it forth for discussion to see if there's a side of this idea I don't see. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=50176&find=unread I want this. I want this as well.
Carl Hauser 2100381593 Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 46	Posted - 2013.01.17 12:17:00 - [22] - Quote 137H4RGIC wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: SoTa PoP wrote: Too many threads on SP - each one has the same idea that is just BRILLIANT imo. All SP un-earned from 1 day is pushed into day 2 - where it'll continue to accumulate to the next days cap until a certain day of the week is hit - where then it will reset. It balances out almost every complaint of hardcore vs casual. Hell - I'm sure even hardcores could get behind this idea. I didn't see any thread discussing this one idea as a solution rather then SP in general - so I'm putting it forth for discussion to see if there's a side of this idea I don't see. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=50176&find=unread I want this. /signed You are right this solution would help too but still the underlaying problems remains. because players would just drop the game once they hit the cap. The active SP would still be more passive because you get the biggest part of them for beeing in battle. Apart from that thats a lot of coding to overcome an problem that is caused by active SP. Deactivating active skillpoints and boosting passiv ones would be easier to implement and would solve the same issues if not more. (As long as you get at least the same amount of skillpoints like now)


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