DUST Search - AV vs Vehicles in the New Patch

Sir Meode wrote:

Vermaak 'Fatal' Kuvakei wrote:

Mavado V Noriega wrote:

G Torq wrote:

Sir Meode wrote:

With the new SP system that will take 1 and a half years if I hit the SP cap everyday without any boosters.

For an AV player to get to proto level they probably spend in SP 3-4m? which is a quater of the time.

So in 6 months there will be Proto AV running around while vehicle users will still be running Miltia fit Vehicle.

Is it a valid assumption that some players will skill specifically into Anti-Armor/Anti-Vehicle, at the cost of of ignoring other things?
Also, is it a valid assumption that it either take a single Anti-Armor setup to kill a HAV, OR that the proportion of people skilling into Anti-Armor will match the proportion of mercs it takes to take down a (single-merc operated) HAV ?

Yes, you can get into issues quickly with very powerful mercs being able to take out your HAV, but played correctly your HAV should be able to defeat most individual mercs.

it may be single operated but what most ppl in the community dont get is that u actually need infantry support if ppl are hittin u with AV. U dont need and tbqh its a stupid game mechanic to make HAVs require more than 1 person when it already requires teamwork to keep one up from a dedicated AV duo/squad

and to answer ur earlier claims yes ppl will dump all their SP into specific roles if their corp is big enough at the beginning.
in my corp one of my heavies went into FGs 1st ignoring HMGs

How exactly is having an Hav require multiple people in it a stupid mechanic? A decent gunner or two should fill the teamwork needed to keep the Hav alive and it usually works for me even with blue dots in my tank

Not all gunners will get out to go kill the AV at the other side of the map.

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Sir Meode Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 317	Posted - 2013.01.09 12:33:00 - [1] - Quote So with the new patch comes a new SP system, this new system will affect vehicle users the most as it take a lot of SP to get a half decent vehicle. At the moment I have around 9.5m SP and almost all of that has been put into HAV use, I'm still around 4m SP from having a full proto vehicle. That is around 14m SP in total. With the new SP system that will take 1 and a half years if I hit the SP cap everyday without any boosters. For an AV player to get to proto level they probably spend in SP 3-4m? which is a quater of the time. So in 6 months there will be Proto AV running around while vehicle users will still be running Miltia fit Vehicle. Proto > Miltia. so being a vehicle user will be a waste of time or very expensive. I suggest skill up into vehicles last because you will just be face rolled by paytowin AV and people who pay for boosters. I would just like to say gg to all the cry babies who got vehicles nerfed and AV buffed. You won't need to worry about any "unbeatable" vehicles for atleast 2years. Even with boosters, passive and active, no one will hit there cap every day so it will still take around the same time period to get to the proper levels. And I thought CCP wanted this free to play where there would be no pay to win
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1772	Posted - 2013.01.09 12:36:00 - [2] - Quote You bring up an excellent point. But you could of done without that last line. Either way - it sounds ridiculous. I hope CCP gets that fixed for you all. Tankers may **** me off - but I'd be more upset to see something like this happen to them. And on another note: YAY Now I don't have to play whack a mole with tanks - where I'm the damn mole.
Umbat Boki Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 157	Posted - 2013.01.09 12:39:00 - [3] - Quote It seems you forgot about 24k passive SP. Each day you can get 27k active SP and 24k passive SP. This is without any boosters. Therefore you need 14000/51=275 day.
Sev Alcatraz Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 185	Posted - 2013.01.09 12:42:00 - [4] - Quote Buff missiles Buff vehicles Nerd av
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2282	Posted - 2013.01.09 12:52:00 - [5] - Quote lol standard breach FG is all peeps gonna need to pop tanks for a long time ***** stupid how a standard breach FG has more base dmg than a proto railgun thats gonna take a long ass time to get hate to say it but vehicles are gonna need a buff again when playercount rises tbh
Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 131	Posted - 2013.01.09 12:55:00 - [6] - Quote AV is a response to vehicles, though, whereas vehicles can be lucrative (in terms of WP/SP) regardless of what else is on the field. Rarely, if ever, do you see someone spec immediately and exclusively into AV skills in the hope that they will be competitive in the WP/SP arena. You see a few people on the forum talk about doing that, but I think they're rare. The problem with claiming AV is ever really overpowered is that there's a simple solution to making it irrelevant--you don't use vehicles. I know that's going to rub a lot of people the wrong way, but AV isn't really meant as a standalone role (as the game is now) and therefore it shouldn't cost anywhere near what it would for vehicles. AV is entirely contingent upon a very specific type of object on the battlefield in moderate to significant numbers--without that, it quickly becomes inefficient for anyone to use for an extended period of time, and it sort of fades away on its own. In a way, it self-balances with vehicles...unless vehicles become overpowered enough to make AV irrelevant, which we had a couple builds ago and was horrible.
G Torq ALTA B2O 88	Posted - 2013.01.09 12:55:00 - [7] - Quote Sir Meode wrote: With the new SP system that will take 1 and a half years if I hit the SP cap everyday without any boosters. For an AV player to get to proto level they probably spend in SP 3-4m? which is a quater of the time. So in 6 months there will be Proto AV running around while vehicle users will still be running Miltia fit Vehicle. Is it a valid assumption that some players will skill specifically into Anti-Armor/Anti-Vehicle, at the cost of of ignoring other things? Also, is it a valid assumption that it either take a single Anti-Armor setup to kill a HAV, OR that the proportion of people skilling into Anti-Armor will match the proportion of mercs it takes to take down a (single-merc operated) HAV ? Yes, you can get into issues quickly with very powerful mercs being able to take out your HAV, but played correctly your HAV should be able to defeat most individual mercs.
Sir Meode Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 317	Posted - 2013.01.09 12:59:00 - [8] - Quote Umbat Boki wrote: It seems you forgot about 24k passive SP. Each day you can get 27k active SP and 24k passive SP. This is without any boosters. Therefore you need 14000/51=275 day. it was intend that I didn't factor in passive SP as you can only use passive on one character. with passive Proto AV would be 3 months rather than 6.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 208	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:01:00 - [9] - Quote As Ive said in another post recently I have around 8 mil sp and about 1 mil of that isn't invested in my Swarm SMG fitting ... and guess what ... I haven't got a proto suit or proto SMG or complex armor modules or anything in the way of speed/agility skills or profile dampening / scan resolution skills. You might say, well you don't need those to take out a HAV ... you just need a proto swarm and complex damage mods. Well if you can't retreat and survive or avoid an infantry engagement you're not going to survive a HAV encounter. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying there is nothing wrong with the balance at the moment, the Sagaris and Surya do seem weak these days, I can solo them if they're daft enough to expose themselves too much, but your sp complaint is off the mark ... AV specialists have probably as many skills to invest in as HAV drivers do to get to proto spec ... and I bet we won't get invisibilty when we are there !
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 208	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:03:00 - [10] - Quote Sir Meode wrote: Umbat Boki wrote: It seems you forgot about 24k passive SP. Each day you can get 27k active SP and 24k passive SP. This is without any boosters. Therefore you need 14000/51=275 day. it was intend that I didn't factor in passive SP as you can only use passive on one character. with passive Proto AV would be 3 months rather than 6. Does passive only affect the AV skilling ... I always thought it affected yours too !

Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2282	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:03:00 - [11] - Quote G Torq wrote: Sir Meode wrote: With the new SP system that will take 1 and a half years if I hit the SP cap everyday without any boosters. For an AV player to get to proto level they probably spend in SP 3-4m? which is a quater of the time. So in 6 months there will be Proto AV running around while vehicle users will still be running Miltia fit Vehicle. Is it a valid assumption that some players will skill specifically into Anti-Armor/Anti-Vehicle, at the cost of of ignoring other things? Also, is it a valid assumption that it either take a single Anti-Armor setup to kill a HAV, OR that the proportion of people skilling into Anti-Armor will match the proportion of mercs it takes to take down a (single-merc operated) HAV ? Yes, you can get into issues quickly with very powerful mercs being able to take out your HAV, but played correctly your HAV should be able to defeat most individual mercs. it may be single operated but what most ppl in the community dont get is that u actually need infantry support if ppl are hittin u with AV. U dont need and tbqh its a stupid game mechanic to make HAVs require more than 1 person when it already requires teamwork to keep one up from a dedicated AV duo/squad and to answer ur earlier claims yes ppl will dump all their SP into specific roles if their corp is big enough at the beginning. in my corp one of my heavies went into FGs 1st ignoring HMGs
steadyhand amarr Imperfects Negative-Feedback 338	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:05:00 - [12] - Quote Just make tanks cheep again problem solved
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 208	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:11:00 - [13] - Quote @Mavado ... your Forge gunner can do that because the fg can be used against infantry ... the swarm launcher needs the SMG skilled alongside. Edited : along with a LOT of sidearm sharphooter before it's any use !
Vermaak 'Fatal' Kuvakei Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 151	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:12:00 - [14] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: G Torq wrote: Sir Meode wrote: With the new SP system that will take 1 and a half years if I hit the SP cap everyday without any boosters. For an AV player to get to proto level they probably spend in SP 3-4m? which is a quater of the time. So in 6 months there will be Proto AV running around while vehicle users will still be running Miltia fit Vehicle. Is it a valid assumption that some players will skill specifically into Anti-Armor/Anti-Vehicle, at the cost of of ignoring other things? Also, is it a valid assumption that it either take a single Anti-Armor setup to kill a HAV, OR that the proportion of people skilling into Anti-Armor will match the proportion of mercs it takes to take down a (single-merc operated) HAV ? Yes, you can get into issues quickly with very powerful mercs being able to take out your HAV, but played correctly your HAV should be able to defeat most individual mercs. it may be single operated but what most ppl in the community dont get is that u actually need infantry support if ppl are hittin u with AV. U dont need and tbqh its a stupid game mechanic to make HAVs require more than 1 person when it already requires teamwork to keep one up from a dedicated AV duo/squad and to answer ur earlier claims yes ppl will dump all their SP into specific roles if their corp is big enough at the beginning. in my corp one of my heavies went into FGs 1st ignoring HMGs How exactly is having an Hav require multiple people in it a stupid mechanic? A decent gunner or two should fill the teamwork needed to keep the Hav alive and it usually works for me even with blue dots in my tank
Sir Meode Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 317	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:19:00 - [15] - Quote Vermaak 'Fatal' Kuvakei wrote: Mavado V Noriega wrote: G Torq wrote: Sir Meode wrote: With the new SP system that will take 1 and a half years if I hit the SP cap everyday without any boosters. For an AV player to get to proto level they probably spend in SP 3-4m? which is a quater of the time. So in 6 months there will be Proto AV running around while vehicle users will still be running Miltia fit Vehicle. Is it a valid assumption that some players will skill specifically into Anti-Armor/Anti-Vehicle, at the cost of of ignoring other things? Also, is it a valid assumption that it either take a single Anti-Armor setup to kill a HAV, OR that the proportion of people skilling into Anti-Armor will match the proportion of mercs it takes to take down a (single-merc operated) HAV ? Yes, you can get into issues quickly with very powerful mercs being able to take out your HAV, but played correctly your HAV should be able to defeat most individual mercs. it may be single operated but what most ppl in the community dont get is that u actually need infantry support if ppl are hittin u with AV. U dont need and tbqh its a stupid game mechanic to make HAVs require more than 1 person when it already requires teamwork to keep one up from a dedicated AV duo/squad and to answer ur earlier claims yes ppl will dump all their SP into specific roles if their corp is big enough at the beginning. in my corp one of my heavies went into FGs 1st ignoring HMGs How exactly is having an Hav require multiple people in it a stupid mechanic? A decent gunner or two should fill the teamwork needed to keep the Hav alive and it usually works for me even with blue dots in my tank Not all gunners will get out to go kill the AV at the other side of the map.
Vermaak 'Fatal' Kuvakei Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 151	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:22:00 - [16] - Quote They don't need to when you have a decent railgun on, and the only people who do are usually corp mates on coms
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2282	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:23:00 - [17] - Quote Sir Meode wrote: Vermaak 'Fatal' Kuvakei wrote: Mavado V Noriega wrote: G Torq wrote: Sir Meode wrote: With the new SP system that will take 1 and a half years if I hit the SP cap everyday without any boosters. For an AV player to get to proto level they probably spend in SP 3-4m? which is a quater of the time. So in 6 months there will be Proto AV running around while vehicle users will still be running Miltia fit Vehicle. Is it a valid assumption that some players will skill specifically into Anti-Armor/Anti-Vehicle, at the cost of of ignoring other things? Also, is it a valid assumption that it either take a single Anti-Armor setup to kill a HAV, OR that the proportion of people skilling into Anti-Armor will match the proportion of mercs it takes to take down a (single-merc operated) HAV ? Yes, you can get into issues quickly with very powerful mercs being able to take out your HAV, but played correctly your HAV should be able to defeat most individual mercs. it may be single operated but what most ppl in the community dont get is that u actually need infantry support if ppl are hittin u with AV. U dont need and tbqh its a stupid game mechanic to make HAVs require more than 1 person when it already requires teamwork to keep one up from a dedicated AV duo/squad and to answer ur earlier claims yes ppl will dump all their SP into specific roles if their corp is big enough at the beginning. in my corp one of my heavies went into FGs 1st ignoring HMGs How exactly is having an Hav require multiple people in it a stupid mechanic? A decent gunner or two should fill the teamwork needed to keep the Hav alive and it usually works for me even with blue dots in my tank Not all gunners will get out to go kill the AV at the other side of the map. THIS. apparently dude thinks all AV players kamikaze ur tank most AV players stay as far away as possible ur gunners arent gonna do anything to peeps on a roof or far off ur gonna need ur foot soldiers to support u
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:31:00 - [18] - Quote And in three months the proto AV guys will get killed by proto everything else because they only skilled for AV. In corp matches you'll have infantry guys covering you from AV.
Tectonious Falcon The Southern Legion 395	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:34:00 - [19] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: G Torq wrote: Sir Meode wrote: With the new SP system that will take 1 and a half years if I hit the SP cap everyday without any boosters. For an AV player to get to proto level they probably spend in SP 3-4m? which is a quater of the time. So in 6 months there will be Proto AV running around while vehicle users will still be running Miltia fit Vehicle. Is it a valid assumption that some players will skill specifically into Anti-Armor/Anti-Vehicle, at the cost of of ignoring other things? Also, is it a valid assumption that it either take a single Anti-Armor setup to kill a HAV, OR that the proportion of people skilling into Anti-Armor will match the proportion of mercs it takes to take down a (single-merc operated) HAV ? Yes, you can get into issues quickly with very powerful mercs being able to take out your HAV, but played correctly your HAV should be able to defeat most individual mercs. it may be single operated but what most ppl in the community dont get is that u actually need infantry support if ppl are hittin u with AV. U dont need and tbqh its a stupid game mechanic to make HAVs require more than 1 person when it already requires teamwork to keep one up from a dedicated AV duo/squad and to answer ur earlier claims yes ppl will dump all their SP into specific roles if their corp is big enough at the beginning. in my corp one of my heavies went into FGs 1st ignoring HMGs This is what a lot of people don't get. HAV's are very ineffective without infantry support. They can't hack objectives in skirmish, for example. I see people on the forums whining about tanks not pushing objectives or tanks sitting in the redline, but they don't realise that tanks can't push forwards without infantry helping them. I don't know about you guys, but I'm not going to put my expensive tank on the line, if people don't move with me. Quite often I know where the swarmers/forgers are and quite often they pin me down, but since no one supports me, I'm forced to camp there until my modules cooldown or I see an opening. Basically what I'm saying is: if you have a tank on your team, use it to your advantage, support it and push the objectives that it's pushing (or hack other objectives while the enemies are distracted) and for gods sake don't leave it by itself as there's only so much we can do.
Vermaak 'Fatal' Kuvakei Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 151	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:41:00 - [20] - Quote @Mavado You do realize a decent sniper on your side or a railgun fit counters long range Av right?

Tectonious Falcon The Southern Legion 395	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:45:00 - [21] - Quote Vermaak 'Fatal' Kuvakei wrote: You do realize a decent sniper on your side or a railgun fit counters long range Av right? You do realise most snipers are **** right? Also railguns are terrible at anti infantry compared to the other turrets, and a good forge gunner or swarmer will still be able to outdistance a rail gun.
Sir Meode Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 317	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:46:00 - [22] - Quote Vermaak 'Fatal' Kuvakei wrote: You do realize a decent sniper on your side or a railgun fit counters long range Av right? Yes and I would have sniper cover over gunners any day of the week but that's not the point.
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:49:00 - [23] - Quote Whoa....14m sp for a proto tank? I've been very active in the last build and I've accumulated 10m sps as of this week. I doubt there is anyone with 12m sps and proto tanks have been running on the battlefield for weeks now. What is the vehicle skill for a proto tank? Like a 10x multiplier? That's something around 3m total skill points. Definitely nowhere near 2 years to acquire. Also, gunnlogis are able to do some serious damage out there on the battlefield if STD tanks doesn't fit you well. People have been saying MLT or PRO in every situation. But fail to look at the ADV gear....which in most cases, is all you really need.
Vermaak 'Fatal' Kuvakei Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 151	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:51:00 - [24] - Quote Tectonious Falcon wrote: Vermaak 'Fatal' Kuvakei wrote: You do realize a decent sniper on your side or a railgun fit counters long range Av right? You do realise most snipers are **** right? Also railguns are terrible at anti infantry compared to the other turrets, and a good forge gunner or swarmer will still be able to outdistance a rail gun. I'm not talking about some run of the mill blue dot who uses the militia sniper rifle, I'm talking about a dedicated sniper who pores all of their sp into the necessary skills for sniping (which every corp should have at least one person doing such) and at a range the rail needs to turn less to keep on target with infantry and ir usually ohks most AV
Tectonious Falcon The Southern Legion 395	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:52:00 - [25] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Whoa....14m sp for a proto tank? I've been very active in the last build and I've accumulated 10m sps as of this week. I doubt there is anyone with 12m sps and proto tanks have been running on the battlefield for weeks now. What is the vehicle skill for a proto tank? Like a 10x multiplier? That's something around 3m total skill points. Definitely nowhere near 2 years to acquire. Also, gunnlogis are able to do some serious damage out there on the battlefield if STD tanks doesn't fit you well. People have been saying MLT or PRO in every situation. But fail to look at the ADV gear....which in most cases, is all you really need. It's a 12x multiplier. Also I think the OP means full proto tank, not just a proto tank because a shitfit proto, isn't any better than a shitfit militia. Worse in fact as its much more expensive.
Vermaak 'Fatal' Kuvakei Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 151	Posted - 2013.01.09 13:53:00 - [26] - Quote Sir Meode wrote: Vermaak 'Fatal' Kuvakei wrote: You do realize a decent sniper on your side or a railgun fit counters long range Av right? Yes and I would have sniper cover over gunners any day of the week but that's not the point. This post was actually ment for someone else, I'll fix it now Ps it would be the point because they wouldn't have to leave the tank at all
Sir Meode Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 317	Posted - 2013.01.09 14:02:00 - [27] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Whoa....14m sp for a proto tank? I've been very active in the last build and I've accumulated 10m sps as of this week. I doubt there is anyone with 12m sps and proto tanks have been running on the battlefield for weeks now. What is the vehicle skill for a proto tank? Like a 10x multiplier? That's something around 3m total skill points. Definitely nowhere near 2 years to acquire. Also, gunnlogis are able to do some serious damage out there on the battlefield if STD tanks doesn't fit you well. People have been saying MLT or PRO in every situation. But fail to look at the ADV gear....which in most cases, is all you really need. I've not seen anything above a Sagaris/Surya, what about the chacram? "spelling sorry" which btw is a x12 skill then there's the turrets, boosters, hardeners, extenders. you wouldn't just skill for the vehicle then take it out with not putting modules on.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2013.01.09 14:17:00 - [28] - Quote Damn SP cap never thought of it that way tbh I mean i skilled up for both the Surya and Sagaris with perfect support skills for the shield tank and missing a couple of levels for the armor reps and turret wise i had mostly hybrids skilled up and lolmissiles but i could use the majority if not all mods anyways But yes AV is way too easy to skill up tbh and also way too easy to use SL lock on through cover then jump fire when in mid air and forget while they follow you around cover FG more damage than a vehicle mounted railgun yea go figure Then again who needs to skill up AV? why bother you have beast milita AV stuff to use and flux nades which do 1200 or just normal AV which home to the vehicle to make up for your bad positioning We could defo call this hard cap another nerf to the vehicle user I was on the fence about going for vehicles again and see if the move to TQ also includes any fixes or alterations to mods and equipment etc because it may help vehicles but i dunno if anything will change
NAV HIV The Generals 151	Posted - 2013.01.09 14:23:00 - [29] - Quote Vermaak 'Fatal' Kuvakei wrote: @Mavado You do realize a decent sniper on your side or a railgun fit counters long range Av right? Thats correct. But Railgun fit is hardly effective against infantry, unless the infantry is stationary for over 3-4 seconds. The little splash damage the RG does is not enough to take out a long rang Forge gunner. You cant run around and support your infantry with a Railgun fit. You need the blaster for it. RG is good for taking out installations and tanks from a distance. But bring a RG infront of a decent fit Blaster, it wont last very long. On top of everything else, all you have to do is to call in a OB on the tank if its a RG and using distance to its advantage. A well fitted Surya over 10K HP with dual Armor reps activated, isnt enough. Blaster is the way to go (its not like you can change turrets once you've deployed the tank)...
Sir Meode Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 317	Posted - 2013.01.09 15:01:00 - [30] - Quote I think the daily cap is worse than the weekly one. The gap between hardcore and casual players will be more evident now than ever.



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