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Sytonis Auran
Valor Coalition
RISE of LEGION
52
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Posted - 2013.01.09 00:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
Reimus Klinsman wrote:Forlorn Destrier wrote:I'd like to point out something: there are always trade off in New Eden. Want to have more damage output? Go with armor so you can fit the damage mods.
Want to be more mobile and better able to survive? You will do less damage because the shield mods take the same slots as the damage mods.
Tanking is balanced. Please look at the big picture, and look at the context. Forest, not the trees. Trading shields for damage mods is a pretty bad idea. Lets take a look at a few approximate numbers. (No damage skills or tank skills are in these numbers) Assault Type-A Shield fit Exile AR (31dmg) 3x Complex Shield Mods (66hp each) 2x Shield regulators (25% faster time to recharge --- 31 Damage 323 shield hp 2s/5s shield regen 175 armor hp 0 armor regen 498 total hp Assault Type-A Armor/Damage fit Exile AR (31dmg) 3x Complex Damage mods (10% each) 2x Complex Armor Reps (5 hp/s each) --- 41.2 Damage 125 shield hp 4s/10s shield regen 175 armor hp 10 armor regen 300 total HP ____ The shield fit has 1.66 times the total HP of Armor. The armor fit has 1.32 times the damage of shield. At full deplete of shields, the shield fit will regen 323 hp in 18 seconds At full deplete of armor, the armor fit will regen only 175 hp in about 18 seconds. CLEARLY a shield fit is more advantageous than an armor fit.
Reimus, that's one way to fit shield and armour tankers, but not the only way. How about recalculating with a plate on the armour tanker? Sure the movement gets reduced, but not every assault suited infantry needs to be constantly sprinting from one spot to the next only using an assault rifle.
Laser users would benefit from those damage mods and don't need the same movement, ditto swarm launchers who position themselves on hills or transported to their location. How about mass driver users? Dedicated guards on objectives? That's not even taking into account the extra benefit those types would have from dedicated repping logi's.
Yes 1 on 1 solo assault users will likely almost always prefer shield for the 'bounce' back, but once squads start using squad meta's, armour won't be as looked down on. |
Octavian Vetiver
Dog Nation United
Relativity Alliance
152
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Posted - 2013.01.09 00:44:00 -
[32] - Quote
Yes, armor has it's drawbacks. I don't think they have all the penalties in place or all the bonuses and other math completely hammered out yet. If the shield extenders don't have the penalty in place or not functioning yet then it'll probably mirror shield extenders on EVE and give a small boost to sig radius. As for the armor not being able to get over stuff or making small 2 inch leaps off the ground when jumping. Sounds slightly broken, maybe they have too much of a movement penalty on it? |
Marston EV
Doomheim
75
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Posted - 2013.01.09 01:36:00 -
[33] - Quote
ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote:so that way we can repair quicker with it and not get destroyed quicker, it's not fun while everyone is the same, infantry only armor repair mobs please.
unfortunately armor tanking is about where its supposed to be as far as balancing goes. The only way i think they could make it more viable for assault troops is to buff its damage resistance to differn't weapons, but then that would probably make heavies OP, so idk where its supposed to go |
Carl Hauser
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
46
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Posted - 2013.01.09 11:30:00 -
[34] - Quote
Instead of buffing the repper modules I would rather like to see an infantry armor rep skill that provides a passive rep bonus even without a repper module. The bonus could be 0.4 / level (this would result in militia repper an level 5) or 1 HP/sec which would result in a proto repper on level 5.
That would give armor a buff without making Logis useless. A part from that this would bring armor more in line with shields |
EnIgMa99
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
219
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Posted - 2013.01.09 16:26:00 -
[35] - Quote
they need to make armor stronger than what it is now |
mikegunnz
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
425
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Posted - 2013.01.09 16:32:00 -
[36] - Quote
Easy solution, keep the shield and armor characteristics the same. But allow a repair kit user, the ability to repair their OWN armor. (would require a different button press to rep yourself, instead of a teammate)
This would give you ability to fast rep your armor, but would require you to take up an equipment mod, where you might otherwise carry a nanohive or injector. |
fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
211
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Posted - 2013.01.14 00:16:00 -
[37] - Quote
Forlorn Destrier wrote:Gunner Visari wrote:Correct me if im wrong but somebody told me that armor also isnt as protective as it should be, meaning that armor is supposed to be more resilient against certain things that it currently is.
As for armor rep modules i do feel they are a bit underwhelming but again if armor isnt protecting like it should then perhaps that may explain why.
As far as shield regen not sure if it differs by class but for logis its 5s for a partial depletion and 10s for a full depletion, i have in fact avoided damage in open conflict for 5s and have witnessed it begin to regen not sure if that is intended or not.
i think an active module similar to tanks would be nice of course the numbers would have to be adjusted. All in all armor rep modules are not worth the cost for time it takes to rep them in any meaningful way so i agree with OP on this one.
Of course i dont want too drastic a change to armor because ppl still need to die, but i think rather than increases in shileding increases in armor across the tiers for dropsuits(without movement penalty) might be a good compromise if they keep armor the way it is now. Eventually, damage types will be introduced, and so armor will be very resistant to thinks like EM damage, and not resistant at all to Explosive. Same goes for shields - very resistant to Kinetic, but not resistant to EM at all. As of today, though, it's all just hit points (sorry for everyone who thinks lasers hurt shields more than armor - that is a myth and is based on the fact that lasers can hurt the shields of the person firing). In New Eden there are four damage types: EM Kinetic Thermal Explosive Each suit will probably have its own natural resistances for Shield, and then separate resistance number for Armor, and eventually there will be mods you can fit to modify these resistances.
uummm no damage types are in place we just cant see them, lasers do do **** to armor. try lasing a scout it will take longer to get thur armor despite the fact that the laser gets more powerful as it heats up and scouts have more shield then armor. kin rounds like AR/SMG do more to armor, and explosives such as grenades and MD also do more to armor. damage types are there. |
fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
211
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Posted - 2013.01.14 00:17:00 -
[38] - Quote
mikegunnz wrote:Easy solution, keep the shield and armor characteristics the same. But allow a repair kit user, the ability to repair their OWN armor. (would require a different button press to rep yourself, instead of a teammate)
This would give you ability to fast rep your armor, but would require you to take up an equipment mod, where you might otherwise carry a nanohive or injector.
not a bad idea allow for an armor repair kit. |
fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
211
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 00:21:00 -
[39] - Quote
Sytonis Auran wrote:Reimus Klinsman wrote:Forlorn Destrier wrote:I'd like to point out something: there are always trade off in New Eden. Want to have more damage output? Go with armor so you can fit the damage mods.
Want to be more mobile and better able to survive? You will do less damage because the shield mods take the same slots as the damage mods.
Tanking is balanced. Please look at the big picture, and look at the context. Forest, not the trees. Trading shields for damage mods is a pretty bad idea. Lets take a look at a few approximate numbers. (No damage skills or tank skills are in these numbers) Assault Type-A Shield fit Exile AR (31dmg) 3x Complex Shield Mods (66hp each) 2x Shield regulators (25% faster time to recharge --- 31 Damage 323 shield hp 2s/5s shield regen 175 armor hp 0 armor regen 498 total hp Assault Type-A Armor/Damage fit Exile AR (31dmg) 3x Complex Damage mods (10% each) 2x Complex Armor Reps (5 hp/s each) --- 41.2 Damage 125 shield hp 4s/10s shield regen 175 armor hp 10 armor regen 300 total HP ____ The shield fit has 1.66 times the total HP of Armor. The armor fit has 1.32 times the damage of shield. At full deplete of shields, the shield fit will regen 323 hp in 18 seconds At full deplete of armor, the armor fit will regen only 175 hp in about 18 seconds. CLEARLY a shield fit is more advantageous than an armor fit. Reimus, that's one way to fit shield and armour tankers, but not the only way. How about recalculating with a plate on the armour tanker? Sure the movement gets reduced, but not every assault suited infantry needs to be constantly sprinting from one spot to the next only using an assault rifle. Laser users would benefit from those damage mods and don't need the same movement, ditto swarm launchers who position themselves on hills or transported to their location. How about mass driver users? Dedicated guards on objectives? That's not even taking into account the extra benefit those types would have from dedicated repping logi's. Yes 1 on 1 solo assault users will likely almost always prefer shield for the 'bounce' back, but once squads start using squad meta's, armour won't be as looked down on.
poor examples but yes you are right. He also forgot the skill that increases armor repair rate. |
fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
211
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 00:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
William HBonney wrote:Forlorn Destrier wrote:Gunner Visari wrote:Correct me if im wrong but somebody told me that armor also isnt as protective as it should be, meaning that armor is supposed to be more resilient against certain things that it currently is.
As for armor rep modules i do feel they are a bit underwhelming but again if armor isnt protecting like it should then perhaps that may explain why.
As far as shield regen not sure if it differs by class but for logis its 5s for a partial depletion and 10s for a full depletion, i have in fact avoided damage in open conflict for 5s and have witnessed it begin to regen not sure if that is intended or not.
i think an active module similar to tanks would be nice of course the numbers would have to be adjusted. All in all armor rep modules are not worth the cost for time it takes to rep them in any meaningful way so i agree with OP on this one.
Of course i dont want too drastic a change to armor because ppl still need to die, but i think rather than increases in shileding increases in armor across the tiers for dropsuits(without movement penalty) might be a good compromise if they keep armor the way it is now. Eventually, damage types will be introduced, and so armor will be very resistant to thinks like EM damage, and not resistant at all to Explosive. Same goes for shields - very resistant to Kinetic, but not resistant to EM at all. As of today, though, it's all just hit points (sorry for everyone who thinks lasers hurt shields more than armor - that is a myth and is based on the fact that lasers can hurt the shields of the person firing). In New Eden there are four damage types: EM. Kinetic Thermal Explosive Each suit will probably have its own natural resistances for Shield, and then separate resistance number for Armor, and eventually there will be mods you can fit to modify these resistances. You sir are wrong. Pistols do more vs shield and less against armor. Smg do less vs shield and more to armor. ARs are standard and do the same.....how do I know this? Look at the efficiency rating..pistol is 120 on shields and 80 on armor. Please get your facts straight.
whops got the ar thing wrong, that one i only just started playing with |
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Reimus Klinsman
BetaMax.
319
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Posted - 2013.01.14 00:51:00 -
[41] - Quote
Sytonis Auran wrote:
Reimus, that's one way to fit shield and armour tankers, but not the only way. How about recalculating with a plate on the armour tanker? Sure the movement gets reduced, but not every assault suited infantry needs to be constantly sprinting from one spot to the next only using an assault rifle.
Laser users would benefit from those damage mods and don't need the same movement, ditto swarm launchers who position themselves on hills or transported to their location. How about mass driver users? Dedicated guards on objectives? That's not even taking into account the extra benefit those types would have from dedicated repping logi's.
Yes 1 on 1 solo assault users will likely almost always prefer shield for the 'bounce' back, but once squads start using squad meta's, armour won't be as looked down on.
There are three reasons I didn't include Armor plated suits. One was that all my numbers were from my head and I couldn't remember proto plate stats with certainty. Two was that the post was becoming very long already. And the third was because:
Armor Plates have two major drawbacks which effect your gameplay and performance in arguably major ways whereas shield extenders only have one drawback but its drawback only effects you if you wish to be stealthy. Now let me give a comparison.
Proto Shield Extender drawbacks:
xx% increase to signature size
(I cannot remember if it gives a number or what that number is)
Proto Armor Plate drawbacks:
10% reduction to speed
hidded reduction to jump height
Alright. So say you rely on being stealth, Its a no breaker that you want to forgo shield extenders.
Now if you wish to play with using the left stick at all, you aren't likely to want to use Armor plates. Ontop of that, jumping penalty is pretty huge. When you are lumbering to get out of the line of fire and you can't jump over a railing or obsticle everyone else can... you're pretty well screwed.
Really, the distadvantages for being armor based infantry heavily outweighs the advantages.... And the disadvantages of running shield infantry are pretty much nothing.... |
KEROSIINI-TERO
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
248
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Posted - 2013.01.14 02:34:00 -
[42] - Quote
Goat of Dover wrote:I think adjusting the armor rep mods are a bad idea.
1. By doing this you will completely wipe out the need for a medic in a squad. Who will need a rep gun when you can heal yourself 15 to 30 armor per sec.
Not if you have the buffer fit |
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