DUST Search - Who complained about the AR damage gap??

Sephirian Fair wrote:

Ydubbs81 RND wrote:

I hope I'm misunderstanding the patch note that says, "reducing damage gap" between standard, adv, and proto weapons. I hope they're not bringing them closer to together.

The 3hp damage gap between each level was perfect. That's why they are protoypes and advanced and the price difference is justified. why would you reduce the gap between the two??? You can kill people with the Assault Rifle and the GEK-38 effectively. Why try to bring the guns closer to the point where it doesn't make sense to buy a prototype??

You realize that the damage gap between Standard and Prototype is not their base damage, but their effective ranges, don't you? Prototype gear has a far, far greater effective range than standard gear and is the reason why it is so much stronger. The 3 or 6 damage is absolutely negligible in this game. The thing that separated Prototype from Standard is the fact that its effective range is so much greater.

They could make the damages all the same and people will still rush prototype. In a game where there is no ballistics and bullets just disappear after a set distance, having a greater effective range over you opponents means infinitely more than 6 base damage.

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KingBabar Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 442	Posted - 2012.12.17 20:31:00 - [31] - Quote First off, fixing the ROF of the ttactical and breach AR is the only issue I have with the ARs. I do however think that this might be a good idea. Just look at the two ARs the Blindfire and the Killswitch. - They both do 33 damage - They have the same clip - Same reload speed - The Blindfire is 30 AUR and needs 47 CPU - The Killswitch is 50 AUR and needs 90 CPU The only stat I have found to be better on the gun that takes twice as much space, cost 66% more and needs higher skill tier level is a measly 0.5 better accuracy. Then why is the Killswitch on the most bought items list and the Blindfire is not I wonder... Some will see the higher cost and fittings and assume its better. Personally I notice this slight accuracy boost and I very much prefer the more expensive gun. Accuracy trumps damage in the hands of a skilled player, just look at MAG.... This might actually be a good thing, Im not sure but Im not pessimistic about this at all.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders Red Rock Consortium 295	Posted - 2012.12.17 20:33:00 - [32] - Quote J'Jor Da'Wg wrote: If this is true all proto gear needs a pretty big price cut to br anywhere near a 1 to 1 risk vs reward balance That is not how CCP rolls. You pay a premium to be just a little bit better.
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 206	Posted - 2012.12.17 20:49:00 - [33] - Quote KingBabar wrote: First off, fixing the ROF of the ttactical and breach AR is the only issue I have with the ARs. I do however think that this might be a good idea. Just look at the two ARs the Blindfire and the Killswitch. - They both do 33 damage - They have the same clip - Same reload speed - The Blindfire is 30 AUR and needs 47 CPU - The Killswitch is 50 AUR and needs 90 CPU The only stat I have found to be better on the gun that takes twice as much space, cost 66% more and needs higher skill tier level is a measly 0.5 better accuracy. Then why is the Killswitch on the most bought items list and the Blindfire is not I wonder... Some will see the higher cost and fittings and assume its better. Personally I notice this slight accuracy boost and I very much prefer the more expensive gun. Accuracy trumps damage in the hands of a skilled player, just look at MAG.... This might actually be a good thing, Im not sure but Im not pessimistic about this at all. this might be a description error; as last build and all previous builds it has been equal to the duvolle at 36damage
Unit-775 Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 36	Posted - 2012.12.17 20:52:00 - [34] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: They don't make changes because people complain about something. They make changes because it's their game, they're the people who do this stuff for a living, and they felt this was the right way to take the game (at least for the time being). You don't seriously think they're taking their cues from random people who post on their forums, do you? after nearly 8 years playing EVE i have to say : YES THEY DO !!!! first there is whine on the Forums, then the Nerf hammer hits so hard, turning everything it hits into a pile of junk. after years the pile of junk will get some buff, but only if your really lucky. thats EVE. Lucky we are still into game development and the buffs come faster in Dust than in EVE. this isn't adapt or die its go whine on the forums to get it nerfed. if only the would apply the nerf hammer with more control and not smash everything with it.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.12.17 21:31:00 - [35] - Quote Range gap is not drastic, from the [GUIDE] Weapon Ranges & Optimals (First turrets added) thread. militia ar optimal 35m, max 79m Duvolle ar optimal 39m, max 87m 11.4% more optimal range and 10.1% more maximum, and 20% more damage. Proto guns may need a price reduction to go with this, but if they are the right price they are still worth buying. For officer guns, leave them but make them rarer, and put new drop only guns in between that are more common.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.12.17 21:47:00 - [36] - Quote Maybe time i rolled something other than a AR/Assault class this time. Maybe time to go Logi/Mass driver.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2012.12.17 21:57:00 - [37] - Quote This might seems silly and completely wrong but the damage reduction is stated for all "handheld" weapons. Granted every weapon is a handheld weapon, however if you look at the descriptions of the the weaspons AR's categorized as Infantry Light Weapon, Pistols/Knives are categorized as Sidearm, and everything else is described as "handheld" weapon, with no weapons being described as a "heavy" at least in my enforcer build, perhaps heavy class has all the heavy weapons. Anyway the point is given the description of these items in the beta client is it entirely possible that the damage change is coming to all the SMGs, MD's, Snipers, Shottys, etc and not the AR's. Granted i am basing this off the show info information of each weapon, if you go by the skill menu list than obviously all those weapons above include the side-arms and AR are all "handheld" weaspons.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.12.17 22:09:00 - [38] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: They don't make changes because people complain about something. They make changes because it's their game, they're the people who do this stuff for a living, and they felt this was the right way to take the game (at least for the time being). You don't seriously think they're taking their cues from random people who post on their forums, do you? You know you're trying to reason with pubbies right?...
fenrir storm Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 314	Posted - 2012.12.17 22:13:00 - [39] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Sentient Archon wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: CCP get it together guys This is all because a bunch of noobs QQed and cried and whined about nerfing everything. Instead of having a noob only zone CCP goes ahead and nerfs all weapons. Hey guess what CCP! Noobs have always sucked, still suck and will always suck. Nerfs will never help them improve their game. They will always get destroyed. Just to prove my point I am going to destroy all noobs with militia weapons and teabag their sorry asses. Once you see them crying about militia weapons you will know that they will always suck. You dont send a kitty cat to the jungle man! You keep them at home! Just my 0.02 TeabagANoob Exactly....some people get consistently smoked with standard ARs, it wouldn't matter what they do. NOT TO MENTION that EVERYONE can get a duvolle. It isn't hard to obtain. It doesn't require a lvl 5 under a 10x multiplier. If a Duvolle is beating you, then go out and get one. It is open to all. If your both so skillfull why complain about the change
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.12.17 22:16:00 - [40] - Quote Sephirian Fair wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: I hope I'm misunderstanding the patch note that says, "reducing damage gap" between standard, adv, and proto weapons. I hope they're not bringing them closer to together. The 3hp damage gap between each level was perfect. That's why they are protoypes and advanced and the price difference is justified. why would you reduce the gap between the two??? You can kill people with the Assault Rifle and the GEK-38 effectively. Why try to bring the guns closer to the point where it doesn't make sense to buy a prototype?? You realize that the damage gap between Standard and Prototype is not their base damage, but their effective ranges, don't you? Prototype gear has a far, far greater effective range than standard gear and is the reason why it is so much stronger. The 3 or 6 damage is absolutely negligible in this game. The thing that separated Prototype from Standard is the fact that its effective range is so much greater. They could make the damages all the same and people will still rush prototype. In a game where there is no ballistics and bullets just disappear after a set distance, having a greater effective range over you opponents means infinitely more than 6 base damage. wrong. check Musta torius thread stickied in the locker room where there are all range and optimal range. There aint a good enough difference between standard and proto AR to justify the difference in damage. In fact, there's none. The 3 HP difference added to all the skill multiplier and damage boost is what makes a proto better than a standard. The lower you decrease base damage, the lower you decrease multiplier's impact and benefit. The duller you make the game where everyone will just tank instead of trying to max damage. Thus you can end up killing the variety in fits on the battlefield. Now, let's just see the actual changes. EDIT: here are stats from Musta's thread : Militia Assault Rifle Max Range: 79m Optimal Range: 1 - 35m (47 maxed sharpshooter) Meta Level: 0 Assault Rifle Max Range: 78m Optimal Range: 1 - 35m Meta Level: 1 'bllindfire' Assault Rifle Max Range: 81m Optimal Range: 1 - 37m Meta Level: 3 GEK-38 Assault Rifle Max Range: 83m Optimal Range: 1 - 37m Meta Level: 5 GK-13 Assault Rifle Max Range: 83m Optimal Range: 1 - 37m Meta Level: 6 'Killswitch' GEK-38 Assault Rifle Max Range: 92m Optimal Range: 1 - 41m Meta Level: 7 Duvolle Assault Rifle Max Range: 87m Optimal Range: 1 - 39m (53m max sharpshooter) Meta Level: 8 See. difference in optimal is minimal. As you can only get a 35% (or 40) to those stats, it stays very little. In the end, you'll get 6m difference in optimal between a standard and a proto. Add to that a reduced damage gap and difference risks to vanish.

Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.12.17 22:49:00 - [41] - Quote Unit-775 wrote: after nearly 8 years playing EVE i have to say : YES THEY DO !!!! This isn't EVE, happy to help.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.12.17 22:53:00 - [42] - Quote Unit-775 wrote: Fivetimes Infinity wrote: They don't make changes because people complain about something. They make changes because it's their game, they're the people who do this stuff for a living, and they felt this was the right way to take the game (at least for the time being). You don't seriously think they're taking their cues from random people who post on their forums, do you? after nearly 8 years playing EVE i have to say : YES THEY DO !!!! Shut up you utter muppet, the stuff CCP has tweaked so far as been for testing of balance reasons and it's all been perfectly reasonable, they may have been a little heavy handed sometimes in the nerfs etc they have applied but the reasoning behind it has always been pretty sound. You're clearly a bit mental.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.17 23:26:00 - [43] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Maybe time i rolled something other than a AR/Assault class this time. Maybe time to go Logi/Mass driver. I want to say that I was Logi/Mass driver before the patches were posted. lol
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.12.17 23:51:00 - [44] - Quote Goat of Dover wrote: Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Maybe time i rolled something other than a AR/Assault class this time. Maybe time to go Logi/Mass driver. I want to say that I was Logi/Mass driver before the patches were posted. lol I'm a firm believer that the MD's are really quite over powered right now and have been for some time but i've kept my mouth shut because i've not tested them personally so i figure now's the time. Especially with them getting a buff in the next build and if the stuff that i've talked about with Sha and Jenza is even half true they don't need the buff they are getting.
KingBabar Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 442	Posted - 2012.12.18 00:01:00 - [45] - Quote Berserker007 wrote: KingBabar wrote: First off, fixing the ROF of the ttactical and breach AR is the only issue I have with the ARs. I do however think that this might be a good idea. Just look at the two ARs the Blindfire and the Killswitch. - They both do 33 damage - They have the same clip - Same reload speed - The Blindfire is 30 AUR and needs 47 CPU - The Killswitch is 50 AUR and needs 90 CPU The only stat I have found to be better on the gun that takes twice as much space, cost 66% more and needs higher skill tier level is a measly 0.5 better accuracy. Then why is the Killswitch on the most bought items list and the Blindfire is not I wonder... Some will see the higher cost and fittings and assume its better. Personally I notice this slight accuracy boost and I very much prefer the more expensive gun. Accuracy trumps damage in the hands of a skilled player, just look at MAG.... This might actually be a good thing, Im not sure but Im not pessimistic about this at all. this might be a description error; as last build and all previous builds it has been equal to the duvolle at 36damage You might be right, it says 33 at least. And perhaps you mix it up with that other 36 damage AUR gun they removed, I forgot the name and cant be bothered to turn the game on. Its still in the top 5 list even though it got removed in the middle of the third build I believe.
Sleepy Zan Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2046	Posted - 2012.12.18 00:04:00 - [46] - Quote lol AR cry threads, the build hasn't even dropped yet this is only the beginning
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.18 00:07:00 - [47] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Goat of Dover wrote: Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Maybe time i rolled something other than a AR/Assault class this time. Maybe time to go Logi/Mass driver. I want to say that I was Logi/Mass driver before the patches were posted. lol I'm a firm believer that the MD's are really quite over powered right now and have been for some time but i've kept my mouth shut because i've not tested them personally so i figure now's the time. Especially with them getting a buff in the next build and if the stuff that i've talked about with Sha and Jenza is even half true they don't need the buff they are getting. Call it OP in retrospect to what. Yes they are very good weapons when you skill into them and know how to use them but it requires a lot of skill to use. A lot of people say just shoot it at peoples feet and you will win. The trick is to hit there legs or the ground near them and not hit yourself as the radius increase at each skill level and tier of the weapon. Also its rounds actually have travel time so must really account for movement, and it is weak against shields which everyone is stacking in this build. It is a hard weapon to use I kill myself a bunch in CQC. Just now that I have put some time into I have learned how to use it efficiently. But it will be OP depending on whether it gets a buff to mag size or ammo carried(which it needed).
Icy Tiger Universal Allies Inc. 1026	Posted - 2012.12.18 00:12:00 - [48] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: lol AR cry threads, the build hasn't even dropped yet this is only the beginning Don't worry, we haven't seen snipers yet. Although, this is looking great already.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.18 00:13:00 - [49] - Quote I don't understand why people don't take into account the dps of an AR. Yes there is only a buff of 3 damage per tier, but take this into account over 10 to 15 rounds to the chest that is 30 to 45 damage. That is a good amount since it is a the difference in an enhanced to complex shield mod. Man if you put a complex damage mod now you are looking at 60 to 90 damage that is a whole lot of damage. So maybe adjusting it will be good maybe it will bad time will only tell just take into consideration the dps of the weapon not the difference in the damage per shot.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.12.18 00:42:00 - [50] - Quote I just find it amazing everyone thinks it the ar they are talking about. Have you considered maybe the swarm launcher and other huge massive ramp up damage weapons from meta 1-5 getting adjusted?

steadyhand amarr Imperfects Negative-Feedback 338	Posted - 2012.12.18 00:47:00 - [51] - Quote I used mass drivers before they were cool B-)
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.18 00:50:00 - [52] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: I used mass drivers before they were cool B-) Me to. I started two weeks before before codex. Tried the AR and then fell in love with the mass driver, and then they made it better when codex came out. i was so excited.
l8erXD Bragian Order Amarr Empire 33	Posted - 2012.12.18 00:56:00 - [53] - Quote Goat of Dover wrote: steadyhand amarr wrote: I used mass drivers before they were cool B-) Me to. I started two weeks before before codex. Tried the AR and then fell in love with the mass driver, and then they made it better when codex came out. i was so excited. The mass driver was unproficient when I got it. I started leveling up the skillbook and I got a lot better with it until after a few minutes it glitched on me and the shots I threw were passing through and not even damaging them.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.18 02:12:00 - [54] - Quote l8erXD wrote: Goat of Dover wrote: steadyhand amarr wrote: I used mass drivers before they were cool B-) Me to. I started two weeks before before codex. Tried the AR and then fell in love with the mass driver, and then they made it better when codex came out. i was so excited. The mass driver was unproficient when I got it. I started leveling up the skillbook and I got a lot better with it until after a few minutes it glitched on me and the shots I threw were passing through and not even damaging them. Come on what about when you get the animation like you shot the round but no explosion and the round is still in the clip thats my favorite. Scare the **** out of people, but that is it really. lol
RolyatDerTeufel D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION 1648	Posted - 2012.12.18 02:57:00 - [55] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: lol AR cry threads, the build hasn't even dropped yet this is only the beginning ^that. I use the AR's as primary and I don't even care about the changes till they happen. "Who complained about the..." AR changes before the AR's were changed?
Elijah Sol' Dzusaki Onward Defrosted Tuna Team 485	Posted - 2012.12.18 03:05:00 - [56] - Quote I never complained about the damage gap but I thought about it... But I do not see what's the big deal good players shouldn't be effected by mere damage values...
Pent'noir Algintal Core Gallente Federation 61	Posted - 2012.12.18 03:32:00 - [57] - Quote It brings up some concerns for me and my swarms. It was just 1-2 missles more. What are they going to do, make that them into a mini missle. Ppl already don't skill for swarms because there wasn't that much difference and consider it a secondary or worse role.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.12.18 04:05:00 - [58] - Quote Elijah Sol' Dzusaki wrote: I never complained about the damage gap but I thought about it... But I do not see what's the big deal good players shouldn't be effected by mere damage values... ^This I run around in milita gear because mostly Im locked to it can still manage decent in all things except for AV roles.
fred orpaul Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 211	Posted - 2012.12.18 04:38:00 - [59] - Quote oh for the love of god thIs is ******. all of you shut the up. God forbid any one nerf your precious AR the one gun that has only gotten more powerful while every other gun has been nerfed. Hell heavies were *** useless for two builds because of the nerfs that made HMGs unusable. There is a reason you saw ARs on the field more then any other weapon, they are OP as . yes you are probably right this may be an over nerf, but at least wait to *** till you actually have some play time to prove that. CCP nerfs stuff and brings it back to a reasonable level, so stop your bitching and if its unusable well I guess you will have to use another weapon like the rest of us.
fred orpaul Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 211	Posted - 2012.12.18 04:42:00 - [60] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: They don't make changes because people complain about something. They make changes because it's their game, they're the people who do this stuff for a living, and they felt this was the right way to take the game (at least for the time being). You don't seriously think they're taking their cues from random people who post on their forums, do you? you gotta remember a lot of these people came from mag were the company did listen to them and it ruined the game. that said im gonna have to trust ccp



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