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SoTa PoP
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
1772
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Posted - 2012.12.09 03:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
This will be a fun topic - HMG users feel weak while the assault players say they're fine.
Personally, I don't use HMGs, too situational to be of use, which means when that situation is over and you still have an HMG - quietly wait for death.
The precision AR hides behind cover - trumps anything an HMG user can really do. Long as the AR user knows how to use terrain, that clumsy and slow fatty is in for a world of hurt.
Even in CQC situations AR can trump HMG's. Head shots are easy as pie and even as another fatty I can dance around an object wearing them down if I need too.
Which is funny, as a fatty, most Assault guys see me and instantly run for cover. an HMG sees me, and trys to get to me. Does he really think I'll let him get into range? Does he even have the potential to GET into range?
I see HMG's as a primary slayer weapon, while a heavy with AR is slayer support fire. Yet, if you want the kills and not the deaths, AR is the way to be.
I guess my point is I'm on the side that HMG's suck - but I'm not of the opinion they need changing. The AR does. 8/10 HMG's are fodder to me.
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KripnawtiQ Prime
L.O.T.I.S.
Legacy Rising
206
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Posted - 2012.12.09 03:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hmmm. Fat Boys sure have been getting a lot of attention last couple of days...but what does it mean... |
immortal ironhide
SyNergy Gaming
80
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Posted - 2012.12.09 04:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
yes the HMG vs AR fight is a little lopsided in favor of the AR.
While the HMG does spit out a ton of bullets, the AR trumps it nearly every time because of the accuracy difference between the weapons. As you said sota, it is ridiculously easily to get head shots on a heavy, we have giant heads after all. Also, and a fellow corp mate also noticed this, is the ridiculous knock effect a heavy receives from ARs. I have never noticed this in a scout or assault suit. Still havent figured out what this is for or why it is in the game, seems kinda dumb that an AR can cause a heavy to get knocked around.
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Hollow M Ling
Doomheim
30
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Posted - 2012.12.09 04:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
Once those headshots hit a heavy the health just won't last long. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
384
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Posted - 2012.12.09 04:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
If anything the hmg needs an over dps increase because even without counting the wasted ammo, the Ar's us higher |
Paran Tadec
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
902
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Posted - 2012.12.09 04:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Just started using the heavy myself. Seems almost perfectly balanced now. Could try a week with a SLIGHT increase in HMG damage, but it would need to be very small. Otherwise I feel its perfect. |
SoTa PoP
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
1772
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Posted - 2012.12.09 04:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
HMG stats may be the problem. But it's also the way it's used. AR can point behind some cover and nail an HMG in the head, the HMG can only point and shoot and pray it kills something.
Too situational of a weapon, why would I spec into it until maybe after I'm done building my perfect ideal build and want the lolz?
AR's just need a bit o slower RoF. |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
886
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Posted - 2012.12.09 05:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Talented heavies still win most or nearly all of their CQC battles. People are getting upset at ARs for doing what they are meant to do. Heavies really don't want to die lol...and won't be happy until they are totally impervious to AR bullets |
Zekain Kade
BetaMax.
931
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Posted - 2012.12.09 05:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
Simple fix, lower head shot damage from the AR. Not by much though, only a little bit.
i still think the balance between the two are fine. |
ZuluWarriorKnife RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
17
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Posted - 2012.12.09 06:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
I don't lose a lot of 1v1's as a heavy, really the only ones that I do lose is against proto weapons in the hands of a very good gunner. Other than that, I'll get owned if I'm double and triple teamed while caught out in the open.
With that said, the balance is decent (except the ar proto bs that melts my shields as if it's butter). The answer to being double and triple teamed is easily thwarted by staying grouped. So, heavies are pretty beasty (again, except against proto weapons) though.
I am one of those that hate dying because I hate having to purchase another dropsuit to replace the one I lost lol (ima cheap bast*rd, sorry :) |
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xprotoman23
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
1452
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Posted - 2012.12.09 07:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
give me an HMG on an Assault suit and I guarantee people will begin to bish about it. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
384
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Posted - 2012.12.09 07:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
xprotoman23 wrote:give me an HMG on an Assault suit and I guarantee people will begin to bish about it.
There isn't a creodron breach hmg so I doubt it |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
285
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Posted - 2012.12.09 09:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
HMGs are for mowing down hordes of noobs. I get routinely savaged in 1on1 encounters with most skilled players. However, drop me on a squad of your blueberries and watch my name show up more times than Quentin Tarantino on movie credits 
The people who say HMGs don't require skill, don't realise that 75% of the hard work is in finding inventive ways to close that 100m difference between the hunter or the hunted. Once that gap is closed, you've already lost the advantage. |
Bendtner92
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
369
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Posted - 2012.12.09 09:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
As a heavy I certainly don't think the HMG suck. I certainly don't think the AR is OP or anything either. It's lacking recoil at the moment, but that's fixed by next build. With the added recoil a skilled player can still get headshots on a heavy, which is good.
What people don't realise about a heavy HMG is you can't just wander out in the open trying to take on several guys. I never do that. Just as with all the other classes there will be bad heavy HMG'ers, but that doesn't mean the HMG suck.
The problem isn't with the HMG vs AR, the problem is with the suits themself. A standard heavy up against a standard assault is perfectly balanced I would say, but a proto heavy up against a proto assault is heavily unbalanced in favor of the assault. That's not because of the HMG or AR, but because the advanced and proto heavy suits don't improve that much. A proto assault is MUCH better than a standard.
Don't mess with the HMG or AR, but fix the advanced and proto heavy suits instead. |
Snagman 313
Carbon 7
41
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Posted - 2012.12.09 09:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:As a heavy I certainly don't think the HMG suck. I certainly don't think the AR is OP or anything either. It's lacking recoil at the moment, but that's fixed by next build. With the added recoil a skilled player can still get headshots on a heavy, which is good.
What people don't realise about a heavy HMG is you can't just wander out in the open trying to take on several guys. I never do that. Just as with all the other classes there will be bad heavy HMG'ers, but that doesn't mean the HMG suck.
The problem isn't with the HMG vs AR, the problem is with the suits themself. A standard heavy up against a standard assault is perfectly balanced I would say, but a proto heavy up against a proto assault is heavily unbalanced in favor of the assault. That's not because of the HMG or AR, but because the advanced and proto heavy suits don't improve that much. A proto assault is MUCH better than a standard.
Don't mess with the HMG or AR, but fix the advanced and proto heavy suits instead.
I completely agree with this, if the Advanced and Proto suits were slightly better i.e. a bit more armour and shields or a couple more slots it would make the heavy far more flexible. In a CQC map the HMG is in my books the best weapon especially if you skill into increasing its range which removes the ARs advantage thus allowing you to make the most of choke points more readily. Also the headshot thing does work both ways it's a little trickier with the HMG but up close quite possible I have taken out a lot of shotgun scouts this way .
Snag out |
D'Ogofwar
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2012.12.09 09:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
The HMG/Heavy seems pretty balanced right now. It can still die very quickly to a levelled-up AR in competent hands, on the other hand a heavy can take down 3-4 opponents in a single encounter and survive if the circumstances are right.
Maybe the best indicator is that most peeps now find cover when they see a heavy coming.This is what a heavy should be.
Looking at it from the other side, if a heavy encounters two Assault/ARs who are aware of him, he better have some cover ready to fall behind if he wants to survive the fight.
In the end, a heavy's advantage isn't dps, it's clip size + tank. The dps advantage lies with the levelled-up ARs because they can deliver all their dps to the target at almost all ranges.
Some other points:
1) Peeps are already using the highest DPS HMG in the game: the the 'Broadside'. Officer weapons excluded, ofc. So even with maxed skills and unlimited ISK/AUR, heavies are not going to be doing much more damage that they are right now.
2) HMG range may increase a bit over where it is atm, peeps prolly trained damage before training range. Even so, realistically, what we'll see is maybe another 10% range with the same bullet spread. That increase in range is partially neutralized by the RBS, so any improvements to range will not be dramatic.
3) Most heavies are using the Type II suit atm because it's the only thing that makes financial sense. At a tremendous investment in skillpoints and a tremendous outlay of ISK, they can pick up a couple of extra slots and more CPU/Grid. This means heavies may get a little bit tougher, but not by much, and when you kill that heavy it's really gonna hurt them, financially speaking.
CCP needs to sort out what to do with heavies and higher tier dropsuits/HMGs. Right now if you removed these things from the game most heavies wouldn't even notice they were gone.
My feeling is that heavies only need 2 'soft' buffs to make them what CCP implied they would be:
1) Resistance to splash damage. This would allow them to fulfill their AV role but leave them unchanged to infantry.
2) The 'aim knocking' effect should be much smaller for heavies then assaults, and less for assaults than logis, and less for logis than scouts. Personally I think this is broken right now, CCP didn't intend for heavies to get slapped around by AR fire like they do. Basically, a levelled-up heavy should not get knocked around until they're taking medium turret fire, or larger. |
Darky Kuzarian
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
143
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Posted - 2012.12.09 09:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
As a heavy-only guy i honestly think the HMG is fine but not perfect (that title goes to Replica Death Machine Gun) the problem is with heavy dropsuit it lacks the durability and survivability for what it cost in term of ISK and SP. They need to do something about it cause currently there is no incentive to go upper grade they cost too much with no apparent advantage.
Am still using standard Type-2 heavy and i have no problem going against advance suits (never saw a proto heavy) because there is no difference between them except for a slot and few CPU/PG increase, unless they give the higher tier heavy suit some sort of bonus i don't see why i should upgrade my suit. |
Ghural
The Southern Legion
63
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Posted - 2012.12.09 10:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
I use HMG all the time. The main problem is the dodgy frame rate and hit detection that allows players to skip merrily through my hail of bullets untouched. |
Herpn Derpidus
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2012.12.09 12:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
u can talk about hmgs all u want but when ur in the hallway with me and i run u over there isnt going to be any cover for u to use and u dont have a choice on how close i am.. ur head shots arent gonna stop me, and if u try to run youl be dead the second u turn around..... im not gonna say hmgs are beter because they arent.. but i will say an AR does not always win... and not everyone is you.. most ppl get trampled on when im using my HMG cause im ussualy only hangin around places where i have the advantage |
KryptixX
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
320
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Posted - 2012.12.09 13:58:00 -
[20] - Quote
SoTa PoP wrote:This will be a fun topic - HMG users feel weak while the assault players say they're fine.
Personally, I don't use HMGs, too situational to be of use, which means when that situation is over and you still have an HMG - quietly wait for death.
The precision AR hides behind cover - trumps anything an HMG user can really do. Long as the AR user knows how to use terrain, that clumsy and slow fatty is in for a world of hurt.
Even in CQC situations AR can trump HMG's. Head shots are easy as pie and even as another fatty I can dance around an object wearing them down if I need too.
Which is funny, as a fatty, most Assault guys see me and instantly run for cover. an HMG sees me, and trys to get to me. Does he really think I'll let him get into range? Does he even have the potential to GET into range?
I see HMG's as a primary slayer weapon, while a heavy with AR is slayer support fire. Yet, if you want the kills and not the deaths, AR is the way to be.
I guess my point is I'm on the side that HMG's suck - but I'm not of the opinion they need changing. The AR does. 8/10 HMG's are fodder to me.
Fun indeed!
That is what i used to think, until i used them this build and my K/D skyrocketed.
unless the HMG user can aim of coarse.
HMGs get head shots too, no?
My heavy sharpshooter is in proficiency levels, i think i can get in range.
If anything id see an HMG as more of a support because you can sustain suppressive fire.
Personally i think HMGs are fine, especially when you put substantial SP into them. I certainly wouldnt mind a buff though  .
If they reinstate the recoil on ARs i think it would be fairly balanced. |
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EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
1012
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Posted - 2012.12.09 14:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
HMG is beast in CQC to maybe 25m range
How many use HMG and ride around in a LAV hopping out to lay some fools out then hopping back in
AR should beat it in long range tbh but in CQC HMG should easy win |
KEROSIINI-TERO
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
248
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Posted - 2012.12.09 14:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:HMG is beast in CQC to maybe 25m range
How many use HMG and ride around in a LAV hopping out to lay some fools out then hopping back in
AR should beat it in long range tbh but in CQC HMG should easy win
Agreed.
Also, about discussion on proto Assault vs proto Heavy,
the heavy weapon training multiplier x3 might affect a little bit. If thinking about reaching proficiency levels, it may be that the heavies are 25-33% later than assault dudes. So, if an assault guy is maxed out, heavy is still that amount away from it. |
Stinker Butt
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
103
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Posted - 2012.12.09 15:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
I feel the hmg is fine, but sota is right that it is very situational. I usually put myself in a situation to use it. Meaning I drive up to you, jump out of my jeep and stick my minigun in your face. The spread doesn't bother me much at this range.
Full prototype assault vs full prototype heavy 1v1 - my money will be on the assault for many many reasons. This is a different argument though. |
G-SLicK
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
185
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Posted - 2012.12.09 15:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
no one nows how to play a heavy right, i dont play a heavy but i can tell you that their not made for running alone and trying to kill every one. they need to be protected by other squad mates, their for crowd control not one man army thats the AR job lol. AR are the way they should be just, they are the basic weapons of the battlefield. all the other weapons are supposed to be used in a specific way to gain their full potential.
AR=weapon of choice when everything goes wrong, great for new comers and doesn't need special tactics to use
Laser Rifle= Great for taking out heavily shielded enemies at a distance, should be used around a squad for support.
HMG= crowd control, should be healed and protected around squad, and also the main class to help combat vehicles
Mass Driver= crowd control, great for tight places and awesome at disorientating the enemy
SMG= great for close-mid range
Pistol= small clip but great damage great for close-mid range
Sniper Rifle= great for long-far range
I know im not done but you all should think about:
1. the maps are gonna be larger (why nerf everything till the point where we cant shoot past 60m?)
2. many people run militia gear all the time, and for guys like me and imperfects we run advance-proto gear all the time( well i do some of you guys are dead broke lol you know who you are). Some people forget to take into consideration our fits when in battle, i run all shield extenders( two complex, one enhanced) on my dovulle assault suit. All damage mods on dovulle tact, and i actually continue to gain money rather than lose.
3. think about how you are playing with a class/gun, 9 times out of ten your not playing with it right. |
Vexen Krios
Doomheim
95
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Posted - 2012.12.09 16:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
i stopped reading about the fourth post...heavies are freakin hard to deal with, one on one, with no one else in the match, yes they are screwed when us AR guys can get into cover and make them miss...with a duvollle an AR guy can easily dispatch a Heavy with it while they are reloading if everyone leaves him alone.
And with that i've seen heavies go 30 and 2 in a match against some respectful AR guys. They are perfectly balanced in my opinion, then again i still cuss that they are OP when i roll up on one. Mainly because i have the high ground on some maps and for some odd reason they shoot through the terrain and end up hitting me when clearly they shouldnt. same has happend with some AR guys, shooting me through the dirt when they are below the hill im standing on...i watch the bullets go through the ground and hit me. when i can barely see the enemies head.
heavies are tough to deal with close up, as they should be with HMG's and so i find more and more people going to heavies rather than anything else, you get into a match you find scout snipers, and assault snipers, heavy hmg users, and assault AR's...rarely do you see people running logi or scout anymore.
so its obvious the heavies and the assault ar's are the favorites in this build |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
384
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 16:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
@G-slick
Even for a beta there should definitely be more than one weapons that aren't completely situational as no one will have a good reason to use any other weapon |
Eternal Tyrant
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 12:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ghural wrote:I use HMG all the time. The main problem is the dodgy frame rate and hit detection that allows players to skip merrily through my hail of bullets untouched.
Yep. This has made HMG use a right pain so far. I find that at close quarters at best half of my AR rounds make impact and less than that for a HMG.
Regarding the easy headshot problem, why not give the heavy a tougher helmet so that the extra damage for headshots is reduced? That said, once the frame rate and hit detection is fixed, it could be that this isn't required anymore. |
Jack Boost
Zarena Family
194
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
I'm AR user ... and I'm heavy.
How I see problem now?
Assault proto - domination battlefield (weapon that they use is less problem).
Why ? In prewious build that will be difference at using Proto Heavies (health). Now is flat all , but CCP forgot that 8 modules in fitthing nuflfing health disadventage to heavies and leave proto assault all pros they have. (speed/signatur/hit box/ammo)
Type-2 heavy is that most of us use... because there is not any alternative. And that is why we loose now vs assault even 1 vs 1
- (heavy meta 2 with duvolle vs proto assault with duvolle -> this weekend about 10:1 for assault suit)
- (heavy meta 2 and my av grenades vs 2 HMG adv suit in LAV ---> 1:1 ) - seam to be fine for me - I can do my thing and this is only wersion that I can react for that situation in plus.
- (heavy meta 2 vs HMG at 50 m ---> 5:1 for HMG)
Back with more health .. or give 2 extra slot to proto variants. End of story.
Few more things:
HMG - more range?  HMG tear me apart at range 50-60m. Use what you have guys and kill.
HMG - shoot thru walls and ground.
AR - more recoil? I dont know if you notices guys that CCP already add recoil |
Michael Cratar
Red and Silver Hand
Amarr Empire
179
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Posted - 2012.12.10 13:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
SoTa PoP wrote:This will be a fun topic - HMG users feel weak while the assault players say they're fine.
Personally, I don't use HMGs, too situational to be of use, which means when that situation is over and you still have an HMG - quietly wait for death.
The precision AR hides behind cover - trumps anything an HMG user can really do. Long as the AR user knows how to use terrain, that clumsy and slow fatty is in for a world of hurt.
Even in CQC situations AR can trump HMG's. Head shots are easy as pie and even as another fatty I can dance around an object wearing them down if I need too.
Which is funny, as a fatty, most Assault guys see me and instantly run for cover. an HMG sees me, and trys to get to me. Does he really think I'll let him get into range? Does he even have the potential to GET into range?
I see HMG's as a primary slayer weapon, while a heavy with AR is slayer support fire. Yet, if you want the kills and not the deaths, AR is the way to be.
I guess my point is I'm on the side that HMG's suck - but I'm not of the opinion they need changing. The AR does. 8/10 HMG's are fodder to me.
HMGs are fine. They are my main weapon. I can see where you are coming with this thread but I have to disagree. Most people have no clue how to use an HMG to its full potential. I'd rather not give away the secrets of the trade, but i will say there are ways to get that pesky little AR guy out of cover. I know HowDidThatTaste Is a really good HMG user * he was my inspiration to become a heavy* and he could give you some tips on how to use them If he wanted to.
*RAGE QUITS* |
Enigma98
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.12.10 13:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:@G-slick
Even for a beta there should definitely be more than one weapons that aren't completely situational as no one will have a good reason to use any other weapon
Even the tac rife can be situational with someone hugging you with a 1 hit kill militia shotgun, or someone sniping you when you have a GEK. The rifles are situational. |
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