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DarkShadowFox
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
238
   |
Posted - 2012.12.02 20:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
Yeah I know you all are gonna QQ and whine and complain but honestly their over powered, I dont care if its a money pit for forge gunners, same can be said for anything once you get up there.
It would be such a money pit if you guys were trying to run proto gear all the time, no wonder you loose money.
alright so here we go lets list the stats of the 80GJ regulated Particle Cannon
Direct Damage 1644.5
Splash Damage 234.0
Blast Radius, 2.5m
fire interval 2.0s
charge up time 0.8s
Turning Speed, Slow its a heavy HAV turret.
Price... 321,880isk
Price of a nice HAV: 1,227,600
total cost: 1,549,480 (not including armor/ shield/ speed and cpu and pg upgrades)
Now lets list the stats of the Ishukine Assault Forgegun.
Direct Damage 1512.0
Splash damage 252.0
Blast Radius. 3.0 meters
Charge up time 2.5 seconds.
clip size 4.
max ammo 16.
Turning Speed, Moderate cause your on foot.
Price. 118,040
Price of a nice Heavy suit: 245,800
Total Cost: 363840 (not including armor, shields, pg/ cpu. etc upgrades)
Forge Gunner fits at the base cost as much as one of those TURRETS and do more damage. Now someone tell me how this is "balanced" and fair? All of you who QQ about forge gunners being a money pit, dont even, you all can die and just start running your AR class and getting all sorts of kills.
HAV's are a real money pit, for what? weak skin and weak health? |
WHz DS9899
Doomheim
136
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 23:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
It isn't balanced. Forge guns are OP.And for anyone who asks,yes I've used thwm. They're god guns. |
Nicol Bolas Planeswalker
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
102
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 23:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
This is a misleading post.
The damage done by a militia 80gj railgun is 1075, about two third damage of a protoforge, and two milita mt1 missile launchers add 297 a piece to this. Fit these on a cheap sica and you can build an efficient milita tank for about 200k isk. With two gunners if you are focusing collectively on a target your militia tank is already more powerful than a proto AV, with the added bonus of doing far more DPS. This doesn't examine the relative health of a militia tank in relation to proto av.
If you are running a mil isk tank, what you are paying for is armour and shield, CPU and pg. This let's you create extremely strong tanks, with either shield or armour reppers, and turrets that deal crazy amounts of damage individually. If you don't die, you can run off and heal yourself.
What you're basically asking for is your SMALL turrets to be far more powerful than even the best AV equipment.
If you are running a tank that expensive, and crying for a forge gun nerf you're doing it wrong.
|
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
385
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 00:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
The forge is the bomb launcher of dust, the essential equalizer |
DarkShadowFox
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
238
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 00:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Nicol Bolas Planeswalker wrote:This is a misleading post.
The damage done by a militia 80gj railgun is 1075, about two third damage of a protoforge, and two milita mt1 missile launchers add 297 a piece to this. Fit these on a cheap sica and you can build an efficient milita tank for about 200k isk. With two gunners if you are focusing collectively on a target your militia tank is already more powerful than a proto AV, with the added bonus of doing far more DPS. This doesn't examine the relative health of a militia tank in relation to proto av.
If you are running a mil isk tank, what you are paying for is armour and shield, CPU and pg. This let's you create extremely strong tanks, with either shield or armour reppers, and turrets that deal crazy amounts of damage individually. If you don't die, you can run off and heal yourself.
What you're basically asking for is your SMALL turrets to be far more powerful than even the best AV equipment.
If you are running a tank that expensive, and crying for a forge gun nerf you're doing it wrong.
Than you misread my post, tell me how much AUR do you spend on this game? |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
385
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 00:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
If you claims your tank is weak YOU'RE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO FIT A TANK |
DarkShadowFox
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
238
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 01:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:If you claims your tank is weak YOU'RE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO FIT A TANK
no Ive seen higher fit tanks taken out in a matter of minutes.
When you have three people on you with swarms that can go around corners and forge guns that do as much if not more damage than a proto HAV rail gun. you have a problem.
I want you to run the best fit tank you can get, have three forge gunners and swarm launchers peg you cause they can go around corners and than tell me if you survive.
|
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
385
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 01:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
DarkShadowFox wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:If you claims your tank is weak YOU'RE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO FIT A TANK no Ive seen higher fit tanks taken out in a matter of minutes. When you have three people on you with swarms that can go around corners and forge guns that do as much if not more damage than a proto HAV rail gun. you have a problem. I want you to run the best fit tank you can get, have three forge gunners and swarm launchers peg you cause they can go around corners and than tell me if you survive.
Uh I don't worry about swarms because I get good gunners wherever I go. And My standard tank easily absorbs multiple advanced forges and swarms |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 03:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
DarkShadowFox wrote:no Ive seen higher fit tanks taken out in a matter of minutes.
Minutes.
MINUTES.
If a Heavy suit is being shot at, and doesn't have sufficient cover, his lifespan is measured in SECONDS.
Tanks are fine. Tank weapons are mostly fine (I need more playtime on my Missile Turrets - they seem less broken than they were the first couple of days after the nerf, but Large Railguns turn too slow). Forge Guns are fine.
Also, Railguns can practically operate as sniper weapons against infantry at range. Forge Guns can't even get a splash hit at the kind of range a Railgun tank can line up a headshot. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 05:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
I wish a tank would sit still for just 30 seconds and not fire at me. Then I might be able to take one out with my FG.
Comparing cost is a waste of breath. When it comes to comparisons in Dust, you have to weigh the ability to apply damage and the ability to survive.
Compared to a FG, a fully smart fitted rail tank with full crew can lay down more damage at longer range with more accuracy than any single FGer can. Rocket tanks have it harder now, and blaster tanks will eat a FGer. This is in the supposition that, like your cost based argument, it's a one(FG) on three(fully crewed tank).
Survivability... Well fitted FGer has around 1k EHP. Well fitted tank has what... Over 10k EHP? That should be easy to figure out.
Speed... There is no way a FGer can outrun a tank unless he's driving an LAV. But if the FGer is driving, then the FGer isn't shooting.
Rail guns charge and fire faster and can be aimed with pinpoint accuracy, and have longer range, and OHK any infantry with a direct hit. FG guns don't have scope mode and, max skilled, with standard FG like the 9K330, have to wait 2.5 secs between shots, and it's extremely hard to hit infantry.
Blasters, if in range, will eat a heavy really quickly. Not in range? Tanks are much quicker than the FGer and could definitely close the range before a lone FGer could take it out.
Rockets aren't as over powered as they were, but they got nerfed too hard with too much range reduction and too much scatter. Still, I bet that tank could take down a lone FGer.
No matter how you lay it out. A fully crewed tank, fitted and driven smartly, will always eat a comparably skilled and fitted FGer in a one on one situation. So your argument is flawed. Under optimal one on one conditions, tanks eat FGs. |
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DarkShadowFox
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
238
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 05:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I wish a tank would sit still for just 30 seconds and not fire at me. Then I might be able to take one out with my FG.
Comparing cost is a waste of breath. When it comes to comparisons in Dust, you have to weigh the ability to apply damage and the ability to survive.
Compared to a FG, a fully smart fitted rail tank with full crew can lay down more damage at longer range with more accuracy than any single FGer can. Rocket tanks have it harder now, and blaster tanks will eat a FGer. This is in the supposition that, like your cost based argument, it's a one(FG) on three(fully crewed tank).
Survivability... Well fitted FGer has around 1k EHP. Well fitted tank has what... Over 10k EHP? That should be easy to figure out.
Speed... There is no way a FGer can outrun a tank unless he's driving an LAV. But if the FGer is driving, then the FGer isn't shooting.
Rail guns charge and fire faster and can be aimed with pinpoint accuracy, and have longer range, and OHK any infantry with a direct hit. FG guns don't have scope mode and, max skilled, with standard FG like the 9K330, have to wait 2.5 secs between shots, and it's extremely hard to hit infantry.
Blasters, if in range, will eat a heavy really quickly. Not in range? Tanks are much quicker than the FGer and could definitely close the range before a lone FGer could take it out.
Rockets aren't as over powered as they were, but they got nerfed too hard with too much range reduction and too much scatter. Still, I bet that tank could take down a lone FGer.
No matter how you lay it out. A fully crewed tank, fitted and driven smartly, will always eat a comparably skilled and fitted FGer in a one on one situation. So your argument is flawed. Under optimal one on one conditions, tanks eat FGs.
not when swarms that can avert cover and dont go to your last positon and two of those coupled with a forge gun, yup say bye bye.. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 05:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
DarkShadowFox wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I wish a tank would sit still for just 30 seconds and not fire at me. Then I might be able to take one out with my FG.
Comparing cost is a waste of breath. When it comes to comparisons in Dust, you have to weigh the ability to apply damage and the ability to survive.
Compared to a FG, a fully smart fitted rail tank with full crew can lay down more damage at longer range with more accuracy than any single FGer can. Rocket tanks have it harder now, and blaster tanks will eat a FGer. This is in the supposition that, like your cost based argument, it's a one(FG) on three(fully crewed tank).
Survivability... Well fitted FGer has around 1k EHP. Well fitted tank has what... Over 10k EHP? That should be easy to figure out.
Speed... There is no way a FGer can outrun a tank unless he's driving an LAV. But if the FGer is driving, then the FGer isn't shooting.
Rail guns charge and fire faster and can be aimed with pinpoint accuracy, and have longer range, and OHK any infantry with a direct hit. FG guns don't have scope mode and, max skilled, with standard FG like the 9K330, have to wait 2.5 secs between shots, and it's extremely hard to hit infantry.
Blasters, if in range, will eat a heavy really quickly. Not in range? Tanks are much quicker than the FGer and could definitely close the range before a lone FGer could take it out.
Rockets aren't as over powered as they were, but they got nerfed too hard with too much range reduction and too much scatter. Still, I bet that tank could take down a lone FGer.
No matter how you lay it out. A fully crewed tank, fitted and driven smartly, will always eat a comparably skilled and fitted FGer in a one on one situation. So your argument is flawed. Under optimal one on one conditions, tanks eat FGs. not when swarms that can avert cover and dont go to your last positon and two of those coupled with a forge gun, yup say bye bye..
Ah but you missed that my argument is, like the cost based argument, on a one on one basis. So SWARMs don't figure into the numbers. |
Reimus Klinsman
BetaMax.
320
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 05:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
Forge guns are far from OP.
+ In a tank you can take on several AV infantry at the same times and still live.
+ Tanks can fill every roll in the game.
+ Tanks can have two dedicated gunners to protect it.
+ Tanks can go toe to toe with a forge gunner and win everytime (unless the driver is an idiot)
+ Tanks are faster than any infantry.
+ Tanks can rep their HP very fast.
+ Tanks have a wider veriety of fits available.
+ Tanks have infinate ammo.
- Forge gunners can't tank a vehicles damage for very long.
- Forge gunners can't defend themselves against infantry.
- Forge gunners can only effectically attack tanks. (They can kill infantry but those are lucky shots.)
- Forge gunners almost always need the help of other AV to kill a tank and other infantry to survive infantry.
- Forge gunners take several minutes to regen their health.
- Forge gunners are insanely slow.
- Forge guns have limited ammo and cannot carry nanohives.
- Forge guns have limited range and intial inaccuracy.
- Forge gunners have few useful fits.
Theres a ton more differences between tanks and Forge guns but I'm tired of listing it. If you're getting smashed by a single forge gun, then you may not be cut out for tanks (Or anything else in this game for that matter.) |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 05:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
DarkShadowFox wrote:not when swarms that can avert cover and dont go to your last positon and two of those coupled with a forge gun, yup say bye bye..
I love how tank players keep spamming this argument and ignore the fact that players who use BOTH tanks AND Swarm Launchers, as well as anyone who uses Swarm Launchers, can clearly say that this FAILS far more often than it SUCCEEDS.
When you get into cover, there's a VERY SMALL chance that the missiles will "dodge" the cover or find a way to glitch around/through it and hit. Because you're in cover, you often don't see the missiles that don't find their way through it. Sometimes, you're just moving and don't realise there's a Swarm guy shooting at you because his shots keep getting blocked as you go. When you DO see them coming, and deliberately move for cover, sometimes you're too slow moving, and the missiles come around the cover because they don't always track your current position properly, and instead aim where you were a few seconds earlier, and because they don't turn as sharply as they used to, so if you're making fast or sudden movements, they sometimes won't track as fast and will curve around your cover instead of slamming into it.
There's a FAR LARGER chance that when a Swarm Launcher is being fired, half (or more) of the missiles will go flying off into random terrain and explode without every actually heading in the direction of the locked target. It's entirely possible for a parked LAV to ignore a Swarm Launcher sometimes, because EVERY SINGLE SHOT results in ALL the missiles flying wildly and aiming for buildings, scenery and terrain instead of the LAV that they're SUPPOSED TO BE LOCKED ONTO. |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
132
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 05:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
This is totally misleading. That tank cannon you are comparing to FG is attached to a.... that's right, a TANK. a tank has 10 times HP and 3-4 times the mobility of a heavy suit that a forge gun is attached to.
In order for a FG to drop a tank with a non-breach variant of FG it would probably take about 5 direct hits on a tank with good HP. Making FG highly ineffective against a highly mobile target like a tank that also has excellent offensive capabilities. i.e A good tank pilot would either wipe out a FGunner or simply run away. This is the scenario that I most commonly see.
On a related note, the current system where AV grenades are much more effective at AV makes little sense. If anything should be revised it is AV grenades.
As a side note, after missile launch nerf it seems tanks are too weak. I am in favor of increasing dmg output of tanks but they gotta have a slow movement speed, on the order of 6 m/sec. |
DarkShadowFox
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
238
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 06:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ludvig Enraga wrote: on the order of 6 m/sec.
so all the forge gunners can sit behind the tank where you cant reach them? it happens alot...
literally behind it, with the current HP the Hav's have... yeah.. there not surviving even if you have a nice fit... 10k hp is not enough...
|
xMarauder
Doomheim
139
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 12:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
DarkShadowFox wrote:Ludvig Enraga wrote: on the order of 6 m/sec. so all the forge gunners can sit behind the tank where you cant reach them? it happens alot... literally behind it, with the current HP the Hav's have... yeah.. there not surviving even if you have a nice fit... 10k hp is not enough...
Yeah cuz a forge gunner getting in good position to take out a tank is TOTALLY OP.
Positioning is extremely important in all cases. If you positioned your tank horribly and a forge gunner got very good positioning then by all means you deserves to lose that tank for your own... Stupidity? |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 13:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
xMarauder wrote:DarkShadowFox wrote:Ludvig Enraga wrote: on the order of 6 m/sec. so all the forge gunners can sit behind the tank where you cant reach them? it happens alot... literally behind it, with the current HP the Hav's have... yeah.. there not surviving even if you have a nice fit... 10k hp is not enough... Yeah cuz a forge gunner getting in good position to take out a tank is TOTALLY OP. Positioning is extremely important in all cases. If you positioned your tank horribly and a forge gunner got very good positioning then by all means you deserves to lose that tank for your own... Stupidity?
He's not saying a Forge Gun in a good position is OP.
He's saying that making it EASY for a Forge Gunner to STAY in a PERFECT position would be OP.
Tanks are MEANT to be mobile - but nowhere near as fast as LAVs and Dropships.
Taking about 6 m/s from the current speed of tanks? Maybe. But even that doesn't seem like a great idea to me, and I mostly run AV.
Cutting tanks back to only moving at 6 m/s? No way. That's completely ridiculous and wrong. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
285
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 13:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
Whenever I hear someone complain about an AV option being overpowered, they always cite an example where they could not survive a co-operative effort from several people running AV.
Name me another role in this game where that would be a legitimate complaint. When I'm playing really well, and my 200k heavy still gets taken out, it's because I'm not immortal, it's because pouring isk and/or aurum into one play isn't a win button, and most important of all, it's because that baby feline with a shotgun snuck up on me. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 15:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
The only thing i'd say regarding FG is that their current basic range is too high. I use one when needed and i havent skilled even 1 level in heavy weapon Sharpshooter. Yet i still hit HAVs that are quite far, or snipe infantry from higher ground.
This is the only OP thing about forge gun. Otherwise, they're quite good as it is in damage and splash. |
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Nicol Bolas Planeswalker
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
102
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 17:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:The only thing i'd say regarding FG is that their current basic range is too high. I use one when needed and i havent skilled even 1 level in heavy weapon Sharpshooter. Yet i still hit HAVs that are quite far, or snipe infantry from higher ground.
This is the only OP thing about forge gun. Otherwise, they're quite good as it is in damage and splash.
I actually like the forge range currently. It's far enough to be useful against most ground vehicles most of the time, but doesn't allow us to sink dropships from across the map (which would be ridiculous for dropship pilots.) I'm only skilled into heavy sharpshooter 3, so maybe I would feel different if I had proficiency in this skill. I think rather than nerfing its range, it makes more sense to make the forge less accurate at longer ranges. |
Lightning Octopus
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 00:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
The Forge Gun is fine as it is. Its already difficult enough to aim with, and It takes a lot of skill points to make it effective. Not to mention the player with the Forge Gun can easily get killed by anyone. After all its a slow charging weapon that leaves the player defenseless, but in return it comes with serious damage when used. |
DarkShadowFox
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
238
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 00:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lightning Octopus wrote:The Forge Gun is fine as it is. Its already difficult enough to aim with, and It takes a lot of skill points to make it effective. Not to mention the player with the Forge Gun can easily get killed by anyone. After all its a slow charging weapon that leaves the player defenseless, but in return it comes with serious damage when used.
so why dont we just buff mass drivers too, they already got a cut, I think they should atleast do 1300 hp damage, with 230 splash damage thats 1530 damage,
thats still enough, see my point? |
Lightning Octopus
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 01:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
DarkShadowFox wrote:Lightning Octopus wrote:The Forge Gun is fine as it is. Its already difficult enough to aim with, and It takes a lot of skill points to make it effective. Not to mention the player with the Forge Gun can easily get killed by anyone. After all its a slow charging weapon that leaves the player defenseless, but in return it comes with serious damage when used. so why dont we just buff mass drivers too, they already got a cut, I think they should atleast do 1300 hp damage, with 230 splash damage thats 1530 damage, thats still enough, see my point?
considering its clip size, and firing rate. no |
DarkShadowFox
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
238
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 01:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
Lightning Octopus wrote:DarkShadowFox wrote:Lightning Octopus wrote:The Forge Gun is fine as it is. Its already difficult enough to aim with, and It takes a lot of skill points to make it effective. Not to mention the player with the Forge Gun can easily get killed by anyone. After all its a slow charging weapon that leaves the player defenseless, but in return it comes with serious damage when used. so why dont we just buff mass drivers too, they already got a cut, I think they should atleast do 1300 hp damage, with 230 splash damage thats 1530 damage, thats still enough, see my point? considering its clip size, and firing rate. no
than you fail to see my point than Uon+Ñn+¬n+ÑoU woof |
Lightning Octopus
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 01:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
DarkShadowFox wrote:Lightning Octopus wrote:DarkShadowFox wrote:Lightning Octopus wrote:The Forge Gun is fine as it is. Its already difficult enough to aim with, and It takes a lot of skill points to make it effective. Not to mention the player with the Forge Gun can easily get killed by anyone. After all its a slow charging weapon that leaves the player defenseless, but in return it comes with serious damage when used. so why dont we just buff mass drivers too, they already got a cut, I think they should atleast do 1300 hp damage, with 230 splash damage thats 1530 damage, thats still enough, see my point? considering its clip size, and firing rate. no than you fail to see my point than Uon+Ñn+¬n+ÑoU woof
try explaining your point better. |
Lavirac JR
DUST University
Ivy League
129
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 04:49:00 -
[27] - Quote
DarkShadowFox wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:If you claims your tank is weak YOU'RE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO FIT A TANK no Ive seen higher fit tanks taken out in a matter of minutes. When you have three people on you with swarms that can go around corners and forge guns that do as much if not more damage than a proto HAV rail gun. you have a problem. I want you to run the best fit tank you can get, have three forge gunners and swarm launchers peg you cause they can go around corners and than tell me if you survive.
Sorry 3 Forge Gunners should be able to take out a tank quickly if it does not retreat, that is what they do. Your problem is you want to solo this game in a tank, that should not happen. Get infantry support and those Swarmers die and so do the forge gunners.
BTW some comparisons you forgot with regard to rail guns and forge guns.
1- Rail Guns have infinite ammo (Forge Guns do not).
2- The Best Heavy suits have over 1K HP total, Tanks start at 3K HP for militia I believe...
3- Rail Guns can zoom in, forge guns can not.
4- Hybrid Turret users can use Blasters free of charge no extra training, Heavy users have to train up HMG to get access to anti-infantry weapons.
And as a guy with a shield tank alt, I laugh in my Gunnlogi at swarm missiles with my 7.5K shields (that's without shield adaptation trained yet). In fact Forge gunners only get me when I'm aggressive, stupid, and unsupported by a team. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 08:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lavirac JR wrote:Sorry 3 Forge Gunners should be able to take out a tank quickly if it does not retreat, that is what they do. Your problem is you want to solo this game in a tank, that should not happen. Get infantry support and those Swarmers die and so do the forge gunners.
BTW some comparisons you forgot with regard to rail guns and forge guns.
1- Rail Guns have infinite ammo (Forge Guns do not).
2- The Best Heavy suits have over 1K HP total, Tanks start at 3K HP for militia I believe...
3- Rail Guns can zoom in, forge guns can not.
4- Hybrid Turret users can use Blasters free of charge no extra training, Heavy users have to train up HMG to get access to anti-infantry weapons.
And as a guy with a shield tank alt, I laugh in my Gunnlogi at swarm missiles with my 7.5K shields (that's without shield adaptation trained yet). In fact Forge gunners only get me when I'm aggressive, stupid, and unsupported by a team.
Just adding to point 3, Forge Guns have a small amount of scatter applied to their shots - they don't fire precisely straight. Railguns do. They're MUCH better able to land direct hits than a Forge Gun can. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 19:27:00 -
[29] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Lavirac JR wrote:Sorry 3 Forge Gunners should be able to take out a tank quickly if it does not retreat, that is what they do. Your problem is you want to solo this game in a tank, that should not happen. Get infantry support and those Swarmers die and so do the forge gunners.
BTW some comparisons you forgot with regard to rail guns and forge guns.
1- Rail Guns have infinite ammo (Forge Guns do not).
2- The Best Heavy suits have over 1K HP total, Tanks start at 3K HP for militia I believe...
3- Rail Guns can zoom in, forge guns can not.
4- Hybrid Turret users can use Blasters free of charge no extra training, Heavy users have to train up HMG to get access to anti-infantry weapons.
And as a guy with a shield tank alt, I laugh in my Gunnlogi at swarm missiles with my 7.5K shields (that's without shield adaptation trained yet). In fact Forge gunners only get me when I'm aggressive, stupid, and unsupported by a team. Just adding to point 3, Forge Guns have a small amount of scatter applied to their shots - they don't fire precisely straight. Railguns do. They're MUCH better able to land direct hits than a Forge Gun can.
Not to mention, or what everyone seems to forget or gloss over, is that Forge Guns are actually man portable heavy railguns. Read the description if you doubt me. |
Nicol Bolas Planeswalker
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
102
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 19:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
Screw it. Buff the FG. |
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DarkShadowFox
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
238
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 02:51:00 -
[31] - Quote
Nicol Bolas Planeswalker wrote:Screw it. Buff the FG.
and what... make vehicles completely unplayable? |
Piercing Serenity
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
181
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 03:24:00 -
[32] - Quote
I did a quick stint as a forge gunner, so I'll speak from a little experience. Unless you spec into shield, FG's will eat through your tank. No question. Armor has no love as it is, so if the OP is an armor tanker, then there's your problem. Secondly, the main issue I had in taking out tanks was there mobility. Even if I found the 'perfect' spot, I still have to adjust to the tank backing out of the area. At most my forge gun was a deterrent, not a destroyer. Thirdly, the aggressiveness of the driver really makes or breaks the tank. I have solo'd tanks that trying to meet the one man army standard before the hotfix.
To help solve your forge gun issues, have a rain gun dedicated for scoping the area for any flashes - forge gunners have to be within about a meter of that flash at any given point. Don't try to take out every single dropsuit you see. Just as I have to pick my battles when it comes to fighting heavies, you must pick your battles with FG's.
Cheers,
PSN: PiercingSerenity
Country: U.S
Class: Assault, Heavy
Corp: Shattered Ascension [SH4T] |
Sylwester Dziewiecki
Doomheim
83
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 11:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
Forge gunner can fit from one to three(at prototype dropsuit) modules that give him +10%(- penalty) to his forge dmg, while gellente militia tank have 4 slot for that modules and they are giving +20%(- penalty)to main gun dmg.
The main target in this game is to take control of certain structures on the surface of planet, and secure them from retaking it by enemy team. If you are sitting in your warm tank and preventing bunch of dudes to retake one of NULL cannons while other bunch of guys is keep trying to kill you, and your whole team are able to take other objectives without any major problems, and you do not see this as a some kind of success, then your sense of reality is broke(problems with ego maybe?).
Forge guns do not need nerf. Referring to topic name they actually need to be fix: direct shoot and splash are not always register(or scouts sometimes jump three feet upwards or laaags are making they tricks), something with actual weapon range is **** up - it's shows 100% efficiency on target that is 400m far away but breach forge gun is not efficiency at this range. |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
132
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 02:27:00 -
[34] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:xMarauder wrote:[quote=DarkShadowFox][quote=Ludvig Enraga] on the order of 6 m/sec. Cutting tanks back to only moving at 6 m/s? No way. That's completely ridiculous and wrong.
Why is it wrong? What I see now is that AV are extremely ineffective against tanks - it literaly takes a dumb tank driver to lose one. How can you make it more balanced?
-Decrease damage of tank? - No. We saw that happen and now ppl dont want to play with tanks anymore
-Decrease HP of a tank? - No. It would not be a tank then.
- Increase DMG on FG? - No. Let's not even go there, most ppl would say.
So, decreasing tank mobility is the only reasonalbe way. If it takes 2 dings from a FG to take out a tank, that's at least 15 consequtive seconds of FG charge cycling -- oh wait! you gotta reload it cuz it got only 4 rounds - make it 20-25sec. How far would a tank be in half a minute if it started taking dmg? That's right it would be long gone. That's why tanks are relatively risk free save inherent risks of idiot drivers, which grow out of it really fast too btw. |
DarkShadowFox
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
238
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 02:32:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ludvig Enraga wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:xMarauder wrote:[quote=DarkShadowFox][quote=Ludvig Enraga] on the order of 6 m/sec. Cutting tanks back to only moving at 6 m/s? No way. That's completely ridiculous and wrong. Why is it wrong? What I see now is that AV are extremely ineffective against tanks - it literaly takes a dumb tank driver to lose one. How can you make it more balanced? -Decrease damage of tank? - No. We saw that happen and now ppl dont want to play with tanks anymore -Decrease HP of a tank? - No. It would not be a tank then. - Increase DMG on FG? - No. Let's not even go there, most ppl would say. So, decreasing tank mobility is the only reasonalbe way. If it takes 2 dings from a FG to take out a tank, that's at least 15 consequtive seconds of FG charge cycling -- oh wait! you gotta reload it cuz it got only 4 rounds - make it 20-25sec. How far would a tank be in half a minute if it started taking dmg? That's right it would be long gone. That's why tanks are relatively risk free save inherent risks of idiot drivers, which grow out of it really fast too btw.
Eh I still think dropping the range to where they have to get in close to use AV, you have to use AV grenades to get in close right? Why not have forge guns have a 50 meter range... or something really really short like AV grenades. |
Khal V'Rani
Nephilim Initiative
90
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 06:35:00 -
[36] - Quote
No need to nerf the forge gunners. None whatsoever. There is already a counter in place.
Snipers. Yeah I said it. And here's why:
A forger gunner needs to peak their head out to take a shot. That shot hits the tank,
the tanker quotes an expletive and moves to cover while calling it over the comms.
A sniper team (notice TEAM) adjusts glass and scans for the forge gunner.
Forge gun is now charged, causing glowing, making it a bit easier to locate, while
looking for the next shot. Sniper team locates target, locks in on the fatal T and pulls triggers.
Problem solved. Though this approach involves teamwork with snipers...
And we can't have that now can we?
I was effectively surpressed by a sniper while forge gunning yesterday. While it didn't kill me
the effect was not lost on me. I had to move locations and lost LOS on the tank.
Bad snipers! BAD! Helping the team like that. The nerve of some people... |
Sylwester Dziewiecki
Doomheim
83
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 07:11:00 -
[37] - Quote
DarkShadowFox wrote:
Eh I still think dropping the range to where they have to get in close to use AV, you have to use AV grenades to get in close right? Why not have forge guns have a 50 meter range... or something really really short like AV grenades.
That is poor example and you know it  |
E-Dino
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 07:36:00 -
[38] - Quote
Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote:DarkShadowFox wrote:
Eh I still think dropping the range to where they have to get in close to use AV, you have to use AV grenades to get in close right? Why not have forge guns have a 50 meter range... or something really really short like AV grenades.
That is poor example and you know it
That's some severe gimpage for forge gunners :(
|
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 09:42:00 -
[39] - Quote
E-Dino wrote:Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote:DarkShadowFox wrote:
Eh I still think dropping the range to where they have to get in close to use AV, you have to use AV grenades to get in close right? Why not have forge guns have a 50 meter range... or something really really short like AV grenades.
That is poor example and you know it That's some severe gimpage for forge gunners :(
Yeah. I don't see a kinetic slug three to four time the size of a .50 caliber round, traveling at 7000+ meters per second, only making it 50 meters. Applying realistic physics, It should have an effective range way beyond what the game already limits it too. |
Khal V'Rani
Nephilim Initiative
90
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 10:12:00 -
[40] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:
Yeah. I don't see a kinetic slug three to four time the size of a .50 caliber round, traveling at 7000+ meters per second, only making it 50 meters. Applying realistic physics, It should have an effective range way beyond what the game already limits it too.
I've tried that argument with map size and sniper rifles. Apparently no one cares if they believe
there's some sort of injustice done to them and there personal sense of order and play style or
strategy. Sniper rifles, per description, state 2500m/s. That means almost zero travel time at 200
meters, 400 meters, 1000 meters. People apparently can't read descriptions and reason things out.
A basic militia sniper rifle says 2500m/s, The only argument I can think of is... is that number
shown in the descriptions operational distance, planning distance, optimal distance, max
distance? And it still really doesn't matter at this point as the map size is small enough to make
travel time irrelevant at those speeds.
Sorry, had to get it out of my system. |
|
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 12:05:00 -
[41] - Quote
Khal V'Rani wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:
Yeah. I don't see a kinetic slug three to four time the size of a .50 caliber round, traveling at 7000+ meters per second, only making it 50 meters. Applying realistic physics, It should have an effective range way beyond what the game already limits it too.
I've tried that argument with map size and sniper rifles. Apparently no one cares if they believe there's some sort of injustice done to them and there personal sense of order and play style or strategy. Sniper rifles, per description, state 2500m/s. That means almost zero travel time at 200 meters, 400 meters, 1000 meters. People apparently can't read descriptions and reason things out. A basic militia sniper rifle says 2500m/s, The only argument I can think of is... is that number shown in the descriptions operational distance, planning distance, optimal distance, max distance? And it still really doesn't matter at this point as the map size is small enough to make travel time irrelevant at those speeds. Sorry, had to get it out of my system.
And another example is Railgun turrets on tanks. By DUST standards, those should have practically infinite range and no travel time on their projectiles as well. |
Khal V'Rani
Nephilim Initiative
90
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 12:52:00 -
[42] - Quote
Hey Garrett,
As far as what you mentioned about railgun range I've never looked at it so I'll take your
word for it if that's okay 
It's fine as the turn time is painfully slow, so is the charge rate. I say find cover. There are
plenty or counters to, other tanks, swarms, forge guns, missles, whatever else CCP may have in
the works...
I didn't mean to rant but the constant call for nerfs gets old. There are plenty of ways to counter
built in already. Until recently I couldn't counter anything but an LAV. Now with a single forge
gun I've had whole squads hunt me down and put me down. Quite an effective counter I might
say. But like I said before I like a challenge and until I've exhausted all possible means, to include
teamwork I won't call for a nerf... maybe the other guy is just plain better. It happens. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 05:57:00 -
[43] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Khal V'Rani wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:
Yeah. I don't see a kinetic slug three to four time the size of a .50 caliber round, traveling at 7000+ meters per second, only making it 50 meters. Applying realistic physics, It should have an effective range way beyond what the game already limits it too.
I've tried that argument with map size and sniper rifles. Apparently no one cares if they believe there's some sort of injustice done to them and there personal sense of order and play style or strategy. Sniper rifles, per description, state 2500m/s. That means almost zero travel time at 200 meters, 400 meters, 1000 meters. People apparently can't read descriptions and reason things out. A basic militia sniper rifle says 2500m/s, The only argument I can think of is... is that number shown in the descriptions operational distance, planning distance, optimal distance, max distance? And it still really doesn't matter at this point as the map size is small enough to make travel time irrelevant at those speeds. Sorry, had to get it out of my system. And another example is Railgun turrets on tanks. By DUST standards, those should have practically infinite range and no travel time on their projectiles as well.
And something else that needs to be kept in mind is that we're limited to a tiny area of the full maps to force us into tight conflict. Things are going to drastically change when we're using the full map. I believe those "infinite" range complaints will suddenly become complaints about not having enough range. |
Altina McAlterson
TRUE TEA BAGGERS
363
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 07:01:00 -
[44] - Quote
I've taken out a black ops HAV *nearly* single-handedly. I say nearly because I did the vast majority of the damage but I wasn't alone. He made a bad call and went in to a tight area and got surrounded by probably 8 or 9 of us and he got stuck trying to back out. 3 flux grenades and 4 blasts from the assault forge did him in while everyone else chucked locus grenades and shot him with their AR's. They did about much damage as calling your dad a motherf*cker but they made it hard for the guys in the tank to find me before I could take it down.
30 minutes earlier I lost 7 forge fits to the same gunloggi because I'm stubborn as hell and I really, really hate tanks. Point is that to you and your loss it seems unbalanced but trust me when I say in the long run forge gunners will lose just as much. We just lose it bit by bit. How many matches did you go without losing a tank? How many kills did you get before you got exploded? How much ISK did you make beforehand? Teamwork and driver stupidity kills tanks, not "OP" forge guns.
I actually got to play and entire ambush 1 v 1 with a tank driver who's top 10 or 15 on the leaderboards and just I kept throwing AV suits under his treads because I wanted to see just what it was like to go toe to toe with a tank. I did everything I could think of, even tried one of those 300k ISK advanced fits the OP mentioned, and I never even got him to 50% shields before he would kill me. Seems pretty balanced to me. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 09:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ludvig Enraga wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:xMarauder wrote:on the order of 6 m/sec. Cutting tanks back to only moving at 6 m/s? No way. That's completely ridiculous and wrong. Why is it wrong? What I see now is that AV are extremely ineffective against tanks - it literaly takes a dumb tank driver to lose one. How can you make it more balanced? -Decrease damage of tank? - No. We saw that happen and now ppl dont want to play with tanks anymore -Decrease HP of a tank? - No. It would not be a tank then. - Increase DMG on FG? - No. Let's not even go there, most ppl would say. So, decreasing tank mobility is the only reasonalbe way. If it takes 2 dings from a FG to take out a tank, that's at least 15 consequtive seconds of FG charge cycling -- oh wait! you gotta reload it cuz it got only 4 rounds - make it 20-25sec. How far would a tank be in half a minute if it started taking dmg? That's right it would be long gone. That's why tanks are relatively risk free save inherent risks of idiot drivers, which grow out of it really fast too btw.
I'm not saying that you can't consider a reasonable nerf to tank mobility.
I'm saying that cutting them back to INFANTRY WALKING SPEED is a terrible idea.
Dropping the current speed BY 6 m/s would be reasonable.
Reducing them to only move at that speed is stupid. |
Sir Meode
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
318
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 09:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
Reducing the speed of HAV is probably one of the worst ideas i have heard so far concerning balancing, The forward speed/Turn speed of HAV is already bad and if anything it needs to made faster |
10mg PLUMBUM
Academy Inferno
73
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 09:43:00 -
[47] - Quote
Best enemy to the TANK - > other TANK, so nerf some points: armor, shield, tracking of the turrets, mobility or some others point will not decide your problem.
The problem is that, pll want be a god! Every 1 sec ppl tell themself "how i can be a god?")))
TOP Forge guners or swarm launches can decide all problems))) but someone think "what i will do if its will not vehicle in the battle?" After this thoughts begins.....Tank is too faster, too much have armor or shield, too damage....they killed me every 3 min.
TANK MUST BE TANK, but not a car with large turret!
So TEAM PLAY is very good thing!!! whimperers!!! |
Michael Cratar
Red and Silver Hand
Amarr Empire
179
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 11:53:00 -
[48] - Quote
I went 30-0 with a forge today. Took out 3 tanks. Two of them were tier 1 armor, between 3-4,000 armor with 2,000 shields. When missiles do it they are OP, but when forges do it they are fine. 
|
10mg PLUMBUM
Academy Inferno
73
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 12:30:00 -
[49] - Quote
Some times i real remeber first 2 patch in May and June, where was real tanks and ppls cant play forge guns. they didnt know about it.
Nowadays some teams have 3-4 men which all battle looking for your Tank, only way sit in the tank on the base)))) |
DarkShadowFox
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
238
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 17:51:00 -
[50] - Quote
Khal V'Rani wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:
Yeah. I don't see a kinetic slug three to four time the size of a .50 caliber round, traveling at 7000+ meters per second, only making it 50 meters. Applying realistic physics, It should have an effective range way beyond what the game already limits it too.
I've tried that argument with map size and sniper rifles. Apparently no one cares if they believe there's some sort of injustice done to them and there personal sense of order and play style or strategy. Sniper rifles, per description, state 2500m/s. That means almost zero travel time at 200 meters, 400 meters, 1000 meters. People apparently can't read descriptions and reason things out. A basic militia sniper rifle says 2500m/s, The only argument I can think of is... is that number shown in the descriptions operational distance, planning distance, optimal distance, max distance? And it still really doesn't matter at this point as the map size is small enough to make travel time irrelevant at those speeds. Sorry, had to get it out of my system.
well it would help if the crosshairs didnt have to center a little dot on the target that gets blurred out when people clump together, I suggested on another thread a normal cross hair like they have on normal sniper rifles, except it turns fully orange when you have a shot, if people cant hit within that range than people really do suck. |
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|
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
108
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 21:34:00 -
[51] - Quote
No. |
Kaizer Ishimoura
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 21:36:00 -
[52] - Quote
Altina McAlterson wrote:I've taken out a black ops HAV *nearly* single-handedly. I say nearly because I did the vast majority of the damage but I wasn't alone. He made a bad call and went in to a tight area and got surrounded by probably 8 or 9 of us and he got stuck trying to back out. 3 flux grenades and 4 blasts from the assault forge did him in while everyone else chucked locus grenades and shot him with their AR's. They did about much damage as calling your dad a motherf*cker but they made it hard for the guys in the tank to find me before I could take it down.
30 minutes earlier I lost 7 forge fits to the same gunloggi because I'm stubborn as hell and I really, really hate tanks. Point is that to you and your loss it seems unbalanced but trust me when I say in the long run forge gunners will lose just as much. We just lose it bit by bit. How many matches did you go without losing a tank? How many kills did you get before you got exploded? How much ISK did you make beforehand? Teamwork and driver stupidity kills tanks, not "OP" forge guns.
I actually got to play and entire ambush 1 v 1 with a tank driver who's top 10 or 15 on the leaderboards and just I kept throwing AV suits under his treads because I wanted to see just what it was like to go toe to toe with a tank. I did everything I could think of, even tried one of those 300k ISK advanced fits the OP mentioned, and I never even got him to 50% shields before he would kill me. Seems pretty balanced to me.
black ops HAV's dont exist, if they do someone stocked up on them. which dosent make any sense because the model is gone.
Black ops HAVs are junk. |
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