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MD 87
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2012.12.02 09:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Why you ask?
Well the average player in this game will struggle to run in decent gear most of the time, making it a lot harder for him to keep up.
The decent player that can keep himself alive, runs in good gear more often than not, combine that with the fact that average joe uses bad gear, well you do the math.
I have never played a game, where it has been so easy to get 10-1 kdr's, especially considering I started 3 weeks ago, so neither my SP or gear is even that good. It is nearly impossible for a decent player to lose an 1 vs1 against an average player in militia gear.
Proof: Look at the scores at the the end of an average game, there is usually only a few player doing average scores like 10-7 and 12-12 etc. Then there are players going 20-2 and 30-4 etc, and the rest are 1-4 and 2-6 etc.
I personally think that its going to be hard keeping the average fps'er interested in a game like this.
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Shadows Maker
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
129
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Posted - 2012.12.02 10:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
I agree with you i have noticed this since day one its like we have only to extremities of players good - bad and nothing inbetween. |
I-Shayz-I
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
172
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Posted - 2012.12.02 10:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
I was going to make a post about this earlier...
What's happening in your situation is that most of these players are together in a corporation. The ones that get higher scores are working together and helping each other out as best as they can. the ones with lower scores are just the ones who aren't doing this.
The problem with this game is that it's all about teamwork, and random players don;t cooperate effectively. The other problem is that skill points can drastically make another player better by allowing them to use better fittings. As you play more in the game, you'll start getting more and more money to spend on expensive fittings, which allow you to stay alive longer. Well, by making yourself 3x as beefy as another player, it becomes harder for players like you to even dent these more expensive fittings.
I kinda wish this game was more like battlefront 2, where you can be different classes, and customize those classes, but sp would be used for unlocking weapons and equipment instead of upgrading them. SP should only be for customizing your character to fit your playstyle more, and to upgrade things like range and ammo capacity, not to simply make your player do more damage or have more health. |
IamI3rian
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
11
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Posted - 2012.12.02 10:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
An interesting topic. I think the server swarm just made it more evident... since (nearly) everyone was using freebie suits (so as not to lose something from lag etc...).
Turns out, I'm above average. = D
If only my gear was set up for kills instead of wins, this might be more evident. Sadly, I like winning more than killing. = /
Either way, I was tearing apart players who are at the very least really tough to take down other times, and usually they are the ones who win every 1v1 against me.
Today however, everyone had the same gear. Turns out, they aren't all that great... their stuff is.
If only you could bleed them out and take their guns (at least) like MAG. Game might play a lot different. = D |
lordjanuz
Norwegian Dust514 Corporation
88
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Posted - 2012.12.02 10:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:I was going to make a post about this earlier...
What's happening in your situation is that most of these players are together in a corporation. The ones that get higher scores are working together and helping each other out as best as they can. the ones with lower scores are just the ones who aren't doing this.
The problem with this game is that it's all about teamwork, and random players don;t cooperate effectively. The other problem is that skill points can drastically make another player better by allowing them to use better fittings. As you play more in the game, you'll start getting more and more money to spend on expensive fittings, which allow you to stay alive longer. Well, by making yourself 3x as beefy as another player, it becomes harder for players like you to even dent these more expensive fittings.
I kinda wish this game was more like battlefront 2, where you can be different classes, and customize those classes, but sp would be used for unlocking weapons and equipment instead of upgrading them. SP should only be for customizing your character to fit your playstyle more, and to upgrade things like range and ammo capacity, not to simply make your player do more damage or have more health.
Yes its all about the teamwork, and I see the difference sometimes when we come in and the reds are running all over the place and we put down a squad we often turn the matches. But when we meet other orginized squad its much more difficult. We use mic all the time and trying to read the other team. When I get in alone I try to hook up to other players and run with them, and try to find my role. |
VK deathslaer
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
149
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Posted - 2012.12.02 10:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
all i have to say is tuff luck for those guys. This is dust where the strong fight each other for supremacy and the strongest of them get to keep playing. Not trying to be an elitist prick its just the way it is. |
MD 87
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2012.12.02 11:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
It's not just team work, this happens with or without groups in the game. It not a just the swarm event, its been like this for a while.
Its going to be "tuff luck", for the rest of us when the game is dead. This game has to be designed around a sustainable concept, otherwise its going to be a massive fail. |
Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
742
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Posted - 2012.12.02 11:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
MD, you're quite right. I've recently stopped playing in Squads with SI all the time due to being on the receiving end of such a beatdown on a new Character I made. But even as a solo player working by myself I average 17/1 every match. You simply need a capable fit to very easily decimate other players. I usually stay away from First Person Shooters, they're not my cup of tea really so I know I'm a bad player at FPS games, on BF3, PS2 and COD I'll usually have a 1.5 KDR due to never playing them. Yet the kills on this game are crazy easy.
________________________________________ This post is the opinion of Jason Pearson and does not represent Seraphim Initiative in any way whatsoever Should you feel offended, please speak with Jason Pearson directly so he can amend this issue We thank you for your cooperation.
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Grimmiers
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
158
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Posted - 2012.12.02 11:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
I've noticed this to. I think things like training rooms where you could setup different scenarios and even change sides would help a lot of new players. Also, once we can trade assets, good players that just need decent gear will be covered by their corporation. The last realistic option is to have a way to earn isk without losing all your gear like some sort of passive and active mining system. |
Deskalkulos Ildigan
CrimeWave Syndicate
115
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Posted - 2012.12.02 11:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Shayz don't underestimate the impact of increased range / ammo. I used to be shot by people who had higher ranges with their AR, so i increased the range, and now i am able to pick people off that can't shoot back because i am too far away. Increased ammo also nets you an advantage even though it may be more subtle. This whole "use sp to unlock items" sounds like your everyday shooter thing to me (i know for certain that Planetside 2 does have this system, and i heard that certain CoD titles uses this too, i think it was Black Ops, might be wrong though). It is certainly better than the "gain n level to unlock this thing" but at the end of the day it has been done before. You might say that by skilling in certain areas you unlock certain types of equipment, so these two systems seem to share some similarities.
I do however think i remember that there was something ominous like suit restrictions planned (or at least discussed), which in turn would prevent people with higher tiered armors to run around and slaughter newcomers with their ultraimproved gears in hi-sec. So if this is implemented it should prevent people from getting a too frustrating experience due to op suit configs. At least in Hi-Sec. |
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Selinate deux
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
44
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Posted - 2012.12.02 13:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Deskalkulos Ildigan wrote: I do however think i remember that there was something ominous like suit restrictions planned (or at least discussed), which in turn would prevent people with higher tiered armors to run around and slaughter newcomers with their ultraimproved gears in hi-sec. So if this is implemented it should prevent people from getting a too frustrating experience due to op suit configs. At least in Hi-Sec.
So they're going to **** on null sec in Dust just like they **** on null sec in Eve?
Now null is going to be just like it is in Eve, with large corporations dominating it to a point where no one else can penetrate it and gain space.
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Governor Odius
Doomheim
177
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Posted - 2012.12.02 13:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
As someone who is just plain bad: I can put on the best gear in the game and it wouldn't matter. I'll never understand how anyone can shoot accurately with a controller.
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Captain-Awesome
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
349
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Posted - 2012.12.02 13:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
as a forge gunner, I use nothing but militia for pub matches, when I get armor and shield repair 5 I'll switch to the complex repair mods but until then there shouldn't be a need to. if you are not in a group that communicates with you, you are going to die a hell of a lot more. In groups I face where my team is and shoot in that direction to aid in anyway possible. You won't get that commitment / support from pub players.
on top of that you gotta gel with your team and that takes time.
if you are going positive in pub matches alone, you are doing ok, that's all that matters. You will never compete against those in groups with above militia gear on your own. |
Captain-Awesome
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
349
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Posted - 2012.12.02 13:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Governor Odius wrote:As someone who is just plain bad: I can put on the best gear in the game and it wouldn't matter. I'll never understand how anyone can shoot accurately with a controller.
needs more left stick action ? ^_^ |
Drommy Hood
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
242
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Posted - 2012.12.02 14:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
MD 87 wrote:Why you ask?
Well the average player in this game will struggle to run in decent gear most of the time, making it a lot harder for him to keep up.
The decent player that can keep himself alive, runs in good gear more often than not, combine that with the fact that average joe uses bad gear, well you do the math.
I have never played a game, where it has been so easy to get 10-1 kdr's, especially considering I started 3 weeks ago, so neither my SP or gear is even that good. It is nearly impossible for a decent player to lose an 1 vs1 against an average player in militia gear.
Proof: Look at the scores at the the end of an average game, there is usually only a few player doing average scores like 10-7 and 12-12 etc. Then there are players going 20-2 and 30-4 etc, and the rest are 1-4 and 2-6 etc.
I personally think that its going to be hard keeping the average fps'er interested in a game like this.
Disagree. I use scout shotgun. Makes no odds what I use tbh, proto or milita. If I play smart I get good results, if I play like a douche I don't.
Fight smart |
Garrus Jensen
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.12.02 14:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
Governor Odius wrote:As someone who is just plain bad: I can put on the best gear in the game and it wouldn't matter. I'll never understand how anyone can shoot accurately with a controller.
The basic idea is that while on a keyboard, the WASD buttons have only two states (pressed, or not pressed), you can't maneuver precisely with them, but that is evened out with the high precision of the mouse.
But on the other hand, controllers use two equally precise inputs (analog sticks) for both movement and aim, which means you can balance the inaccuracy of the right stick by making gentle sideways movements with the left stick.
On the other hand, I just started playing today, and I can see where this argument is coming from. I'm an adequate player in single player games, but I'm mostly average online, and I have to think twice if I don't want to spend all my ISK on re-equipping myself with the same gear all the time.
But I guess this is how DUST teaches players to think and adapt (this is something the tutorial tries to emphasize from what I could gather) |
Finn Kempers
BetaMax.
222
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Posted - 2012.12.02 14:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
Good gear means very little, its mostly SP that separates players. |
Sephirian Fair
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
48
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Posted - 2012.12.02 14:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
Finn Kempers wrote:Good gear means very little, its mostly SP that separates players.
I disagree. It doesn't mean as much as Passive skill bonuses, but equipping Advanced/Prototype leveled weapons means a hell of a lot when concerning Assault/Laser Rifles and HMG's. The damage increases on higher leveled weapons is mostly negligible in the grand scheme of things, however the longer effective ranges that more advanced weapons have means everything.
My brother runs heavy HMG all the time and the difference in effective range between the MH-82 and the Boundless HMG's is HUGE. With the MH-82, he gets 100% damage out put for about 40~ meters. On the Boundless, he gets 100% damage output for over 50 meters. That's an additional 10+ meters that he is doing full damage, with the diminishing damage at range being much lesser than the MH-82. Assault rifles see similar, if not greater, gains on damage output at range. The more advanced weapon you have, the greater and more consistent damage at range you possess.
The range differences right now is the killer. The fact that rounds just disappear in midair causes the largest amount of difference between new and veteran players. |
Crm234
Wraith Shadow Guards
166
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 15:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
There is no reason for anyone to go 35-2 in a match and two players as well on the same team. Where 5 players go 1-5 and 4 plays keep around.6-9.
This is not teamwork its just bad game balance and you are in denial if you think otherwise. I knew CCP would need help building a FPS since it was their first but didn't think they would refuse to listen and fix the problems or turn a blind eye to them.
Its a beta that means it can change and right now the RPG skill progression is killing the FPS side of this beta. No one should shoot the same gun and have different distances and damage. |
Vexen Krios
Doomheim
95
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Posted - 2012.12.02 15:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
Skills and gear do a combination of making a player better...but this game is random most times well for me anyways...i have many different suit builds for whatever situation. But find myself going back to one in particular build that at this point i wont even touch the equipment on it.
I have two type B suits one with 450+ shields and 320+ armor, and a gek-38 however....I do decent and its hard to put me down in that suit. I end up doing better in my suit that is balanced with both 320+ armor and shields running a complex dmg mod and a regular assault rifle with AV grenades. I do twice the killing in that suit. than i do the defensive suit. a Damage mod with a Regular assault rifle hits harder than a Gek-38 without a damage mod. but 3x dmg mods and a gek will hit nearly as hard as a duvolle so its about how you fit your suits.
I love how everything is currently set up. I get torn apart by laser rifles, they **** me off so bad but its part of the game. if your not skilled in a heavy suit your easy to take out...but if you know how to run a heavy, your nearly godlike.
This game is meant to be like any other FPS game ever made....i love the skills and how its all done, its comepletly different that CoD battlefield, medal of honor, or another game you can think of. thats why i keep playing. If it turns into a CoD copy where its whoever turns the corner first gets the kill, or whoever is sitting with in the best spot camping...ill never play it again.
CCP is doing great, just a little slow at it. players that go 30+ with 1 or 2 deaths doesn't mean the game is unbalanced, ill agree it is in some areas, but that just means they know how to play the game. im usuall 7 - 18 kills with 3 - 6 deaths...thats what my ratio normally looks like. So whats stopping other players from doing the same? their skills and gear. Or they just need to figure out what works for them.
if players are going 1- 5 or whatever its mostly because they are bluberries, most of the time blueberries are not using team work or they are trying to just stay alive
I've noticed 7 blue dots in a single area and when looking at the leader boards they are names i've never seen before, so that tells me they dont know whats going on. when you have 7 players standing in one spot just venturing out time to time only to get killed they haven't the knowledge on how to kill anyone other than pull the trigger which without combining some skill, SP, ISK, and gear with that well, you already know.
If you think the game is that unbalanced...find the guy in game that goes 30-0, put your aiming dot on him, read his stats and his suit and watch what weapon he is getting kills with. and if you get your fitting like that and dont get 30-0 its because he's shooting newbs...if he's not and you still cant get it...then its you. not the game. |
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Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
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Posted - 2012.12.02 15:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
MD 87 wrote:I [...] get 10-1 kdr's
You should have just written this and saved yourself the trouble. Oh, yes, decent players with average skill and good equipment are able to beat average players of good skill with only average equipment, quite so, quite so, very troubling indeed. |
Crm234
Wraith Shadow Guards
166
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Posted - 2012.12.02 16:05:00 -
[22] - Quote
Why does every player that tries to support any flaw in this beta "not game" always throw out Call Of Duty like its the only game in a genre? I don't scream every counter to RPG players as World of Warcraft with Space ships because Wow is a popular game.
At the end of the day this game will be released as a free to play game and no one will have a investment in this game when they feel like walking away. In addition, PS3 players have no loyalty to CCP since they are building a brand on the PS3 and you don't win new customers by telling them their wrong all day and since its a brand new idea it doesn't have to be fun or enjoyable to you.
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Octavian Vetiver
Dog Nation United Relativity Alliance
152
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Posted - 2012.12.02 18:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Crm234 wrote: Its a beta that means it can change and right now the RPG skill progression is killing the FPS side of this beta. No one should shoot the same gun and have different distances and damage.
The skill progression at least in terms of ranges and ammo counts among a few other things is designed basically as a weapons tweak. Kind of like taking an M4 or other weapon and messing with the sights, barrel changes, muzzle adapters. Anyways, right now the mechanics don't match up with the skills. Everything isn't quite balance and it's going to take some work until they get it right. There is plenty of time, the game is not going to just get thrown out there and then left to fend on it's own. |
Crm234
Wraith Shadow Guards
166
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Posted - 2012.12.02 18:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
^^^^^^^^^ That all sounds great and I think everyone would understand that if it was happening but right now it seems like that is what you are believing is happening from updating proficiency from lvl 2 to lvl 3.
To the main player base we are just updating the same gun with same everything with
Operation Proficiency Sharpshooting Clip size Damage
really do we need to update all these things to use the same assault rifle it just seems tedious
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Vexen Krios
Doomheim
95
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Posted - 2012.12.02 22:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
Crm234 wrote:^^^^^^^^^ That all sounds great and I think everyone would understand that if it was happening but right now it seems like that is what you are believing is happening from updating proficiency from lvl 2 to lvl 3.
To the main player base we are just updating the same gun with same everything with
Operation Proficiency Sharpshooting Clip size Damage
really do we need to update all these things to use the same assault rifle it just seems tedious
so your saying take the all the weapon skilling out of the game? why? because someone is too lazy to do the grind to get caught up with everyone else? or your getting owned by the same weapons that you use because you dont want to throw your skill points into a weapon?
ok fine, say we take out all the skill pertaining to weapons and every weapon of the same type does the same damage across the board, same range, same clip size. everything. then what?
your still not going to be able to take someone out the same if they have higher shields and armor...then i suppose you'll have CCP take all the skills pertaining to Armor and Shields out as well so everyone with that particular suit has the same amount of health.
ok fine...say they do that too. then everyone resorts to using heavy suits with with sprint boosters....
great, now the heavy suits get "balanced" to all being the same shields and armor as the assault suits and the sprint booster skills and stamina skills get taken out as well because someone cant keep up with their enemy because they dont have the skills into the sprint boosters...
do all that and what do you have? any other generic FPS game. Every FPS game is the same with the exception of Far Cry. the only difference is the location in game where the story or multiplayer takes place. different weapons or attachments. The base mechanics of any FPS game is the same as any other.
This particular game may cater to newbs a little bit...but not really. Personal i dont think its newb friendly at all. especially the disadvantage they have if they start the game now against the rest of us. In any other FPS game its about who has the stronger damage dealing weapon, or the fastest rate of fire. take that away and its whoever is the fastest at aiming and pulling the trigger, half the time thats the way it is anyways. Hell in CoD BO2 you aint even gotta hit them to kill em apparently. At least in DUST you can be running the same gear, same mods and skills, yet you can shoot someone in the back and have them turn around and kill you. why? because they are smart enough to throw skill points into armor and shields. Its anyone's game. |
Finn Kempers
BetaMax.
222
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Posted - 2012.12.02 22:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
Sephirian Fair wrote:Finn Kempers wrote:Good gear means very little, its mostly SP that separates players. I disagree. It doesn't mean as much as Passive skill bonuses, but equipping Advanced/Prototype leveled weapons means a hell of a lot when concerning Assault/Laser Rifles and HMG's. The damage increases on higher leveled weapons is mostly negligible in the grand scheme of things, however the longer effective ranges that more advanced weapons have means everything. My brother runs heavy HMG all the time and the difference in effective range between the MH-82 and the Boundless HMG's is HUGE. With the MH-82, he gets 100% damage out put for about 40~ meters. On the Boundless, he gets 100% damage output for over 50 meters. That's an additional 10+ meters that he is doing full damage, with the diminishing damage at range being much lesser than the MH-82. Assault rifles see similar, if not greater, gains on damage output at range. The more advanced weapon you have, the greater and more consistent damage at range you possess. The range differences right now is the killer. The fact that rounds just disappear in midair causes the largest amount of difference between new and veteran players. I'm just gonna put it out there now that I snipe, so this means little to me. Though I can see where you're coming from, I could also say I have had my SMG do so much more damage from upgrading sharpshooter over having a better gun. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2282
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Posted - 2012.12.02 23:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
As someone who ran nothing but standard suits last build and mainly standard Type-II assault suits with full militia mods + a Blindfire this build gear doesnt matter that much tbh
u only really start seeing the diff when u see proto gear and not many ppl can afford to consistently fund those all the time in pub matches.
ppl go hard in pubs for w/e reason (kdr i guess?) but i dont see the point of it in a pub match. If i find a cheap reasonable fit that i can still manage well with imma rock with it.
Seems to be working out for me so far |
steadyhand amarr
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
338
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Posted - 2012.12.02 23:55:00 -
[28] - Quote
what is causing most people problems is that its very very easy to make a bad fit, so no matter how good you are a bad fit WILL get you killed just like in EvE, i have seen some soild newb only gear fits that have floored my type 2 fittings and iv seen some god awful type B fits that i just walk all over. |
Crm234
Wraith Shadow Guards
166
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Posted - 2012.12.03 00:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
do you feel better after your throw the baby out with the bath water rant?
I have no problem with having skills in Dust , I do dislike when skills are added for the sake of adding them like some pokemon CCP edition where i gotta collect them all. If im proficient in something , I think I can operate it and damage should only be done by the weapon not a skill. Clip size has nothing to do with a skill and should be a module if its energy based or an item if bullet sized. Sharpshooting is a talent but not a skill in which just because you hold a rifle it goes farther.
The fact I was only getting owned in the beginning of playing was because I didn't have skills purchased but then with every skill point added my kdr went up shows a problem with the skill level in Dust. how does your kdr change when nothing has changed but your skill level purchased. Not aim, reflexes, or understanding of how to work your controller.
You will lose the FPS player base if you push grinding , because FPS players tend not to like the grinding aspect of a game thats why they play FPS games instead of RPG`s. Ive never owned or bought a call of duty game and hate arcade death match shooters. Would you rather have a player base that like grinding but FPS gameplay is not their cup of tea and slowly leave for the next RPG or Eve because they hate shooters. Or a FPS crowd that will stay because they love the core gamplay of FPS game. Dust will need numbers to populate 48 by 48 player games across multiple planets and you wont get that result by telling every new player hold in there a month it gets better. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
164
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Posted - 2012.12.03 01:07:00 -
[30] - Quote
I'm not a pro player by far but I get the game and how it works, as well as the intent of the skill system, which is working really well IMO.
Dust isn't a pure FPSMMO game. It has, as intended, RPG elements. The skill system actually means something and is a reflection of the time and effort one has put into their character.
And as with all things, the more you play, the better you get with your personal skills. It's called practice. It's not just my in game trained skills that are getting better. And I really like that this game takes thought and tactical planning, not just reflexes on a twitchy trigger finger.
It baffles me how many players there are out there that whine about one character doing better with what they think is the same set up than another just because the other player has better actual skills, and a better game skill set for that particular fit. They need to learn how to play Dust or go back to the vanilla FPS games they so want Dust to be like.
In any game, there will always be the "Pro players" that do really really well. I have been frustrated many times in Dust because of them, but I can appreciate their skills and don't begrudge them their ability to excel. I know I've frustrated a few people myself at times. |
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Vexen Krios
Doomheim
95
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Posted - 2012.12.03 14:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
Crm234 wrote:
You will lose the FPS player base if you push grinding , because FPS players tend not to like the grinding aspect of a game thats why they play FPS games instead of RPG`s. Ive never owned or bought a call of duty game and hate arcade death match shooters. Would you rather have a player base that like grinding but FPS gameplay is not their cup of tea and slowly leave for the next RPG or Eve because they hate shooters. Or a FPS crowd that will stay because they love the core gamplay of FPS game. Dust will need numbers to populate 48 by 48 player games across multiple planets and you wont get that result by telling every new player hold in there a month it gets better.
Apparently you've got your wires crossed, if server swarm saturday taught us anything its that people play this game...and alot of, that was the first time i've ever seen a server crash because people were trying to get on to play. there were very many people playing that day. Sure it may have been for the free gear but that just means they are still interested. Your not going to talk CCP out of the skills they have already implemented into the game...Its their game and they will make it how they want. Obviously your not the player base they are looking for.... the rest of us enjoy this game the way it is....sure we all would change a few things, personally i'd give back the hp boost for more advanced gear. but you know what...we keep playing.
Even if this game was scrapped today, there would still be quite a few people who would get on, and duke it out with friends for as long as the servers stayed active. i know i would. |
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