DUST Search - Logi EVE vs Dust (a question for the Pod side crew)

R F Gyro wrote:

ugg reset wrote:

In EVEGäó it's logistics job to heal caps faster than the other team can deal damage to them; this is not the case in Dust. the repair tool and remote repp mods cannot compete with the DPS.

This is key.

Imagine this scenario...

Your team of 16 mercs is running around in a big pack; a couple of scouts are out ahead, there there is the main group with four logis and ten assaults/heavies.

One of the scouts suddenly calls out: enemy gang spotted heading your way. Similar composition to your team, so should be an epic fight. You back around the corner and wait for them to run into you.

In they come and the fight begins.

Both teams stand out in the open, in their groups, facing each other. Your team leader calls "sucker123 is primary", so all your assualts and heavies start shooting at him. Meanwhile, the opposing team lead has called one of your squad, "poorschmuck" primary and 10 guns start ripping his shields and armour apart.

Poorschmuck hits the button on his d-pad that broadcasts for reps and your four logis start repping him.

The enemy logis are in proto suits and are on their game, so they easily deal with the incoming damage. Your team leader realises this so starts "switching" primaries from one target to another in the hope that the enemy logis will screw up and not get reps on fast enough.

Your own logis aren't doing so well though, and poorschmuck dies. The enemy team lead immediately calls a new primary (he'd previously nominated them a "secondary" target to get everyone prepared). With the death of poorschmuck the amount of damage your team is doing is reduced, and so the enemy logi can start to relax a bit.

This cycle continues until your team leader calls the retreat and everyone scrambles to escape.

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Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.11.15 21:40:00 - [1] - Quote So there are certainly a number of Dust players who are also EVE:O players. If this is you I'm interested in what you think of the comparative state of Logi balance in CODEX vs Inferno. Simply put, do you think two logibros in dust provide as much of a force multiplier as a pair of Guardians? If not which side (EVE:O or D514) would you say has the more effective Logi presence (and please include why). Cheers, Cross EDIT: To clarify, I realize that the tactics are not parallel and the class abilities are not directly interchangeable. What I'm wondering is about their overall effect on the battle/outcome. In EVE there's no question that a couple of good Logi ships can make a fleet many times more deadly than the same fleet without them. So much so that in many cases they are more valuable to the group than additional dps. I am simply wondering if beta testers in Dust who've also been exposed to the context of EVE would say that Logi's in Dust provide equivalent overall value (not equivalent overall function) to teams they run with. (Also not this is not a question about if Logi's in Dust are doing their job, just about the value of the class itself in its current iteration within CODEX).
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2012.11.15 21:52:00 - [2] - Quote Don't think you can really compare the two, but Dust logi's are pretty effective at carrying equipment, but I see a few areas where they can be improved. I think alot of the logi's issues are tied with the equipment that the rest of the squad is carrying (assaults tend to carry nanohives instead of something more useful) . The other issue with logis is they are so slow. I tend to fall behind the rest of the squad, so we get separated easily, and so my weapon of choice is a laser rifle.
ugg reset ZionTCD Legacy Rising 234	Posted - 2012.11.15 22:10:00 - [3] - Quote I don't play EVEGäó but I know what a Guardian is and what it's for (thanks to Rooks and kings) and I'd say it's hard to compair apples and half eaten oranges. we don't really know what it takes to control a planet or what other tools we will have to do so. In EVEGäó it's logistics job to heal caps faster than the other team can deal damage to them; this is not the case in Dust. the repair tool and remote repp mods cannot compete with the DPS. This being said you are better off helping your team lick their wounds and being an extra gun when the fight comes. Paran Tadec wrote: The other issue with logis is they are so slow. when I run my good logi i put an SMG in the light sought for additional run speed. I try to be in or around vehicles whenever posable since i can't rely on my own fire power. Also try to focus on armor repping and amo, assaults are better set for going out into the open and reviving people and since they only have room for one equipment slot it's worth there while to use better pins. not like we can count on randoms though.
Governor Odius Doomheim 177	Posted - 2012.11.15 22:26:00 - [4] - Quote ugg reset wrote: when I run my good logi i put an SMG in the light sought for additional run speed. I'm pretty sure that doesn't affect your speed.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.15 22:50:00 - [5] - Quote Governor Odius wrote: ugg reset wrote: when I run my good logi i put an SMG in the light sought for additional run speed. I'm pretty sure that doesn't affect your speed. I have to admit that, in my experience, it FEELS like I'm running faster with my SMG out than with a Light Weapon equipped. I haven't timed it to check, but I think it may be a legit speed difference with Sidearms compared with Light Weapons.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2012.11.15 22:55:00 - [6] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: The other issue with logis is they are so slow. I tend to fall behind the rest of the squad, so we get separated easily, and so my weapon of choice is a laser rifle. Why do I keep hearing that? It may just be my imagination, but I'm pretty sure logi's are just as fast as assault players (unless you throw an armor plate or 2 on, like mine). The only thing faster than a Type II logi is a scout.
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2012.11.15 23:01:00 - [7] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Paran Tadec wrote: The other issue with logis is they are so slow. I tend to fall behind the rest of the squad, so we get separated easily, and so my weapon of choice is a laser rifle. Why do I keep hearing that? It may just be my imagination, but I'm pretty sure logi's are just as fast as assault players (unless you throw an armor plate or 2 on, like mine). The only thing faster than a Type II logi is a scout. Logi's are slightly slower, but once you factor in armor they are indeed alot slower. I run damage mods in my highslots, and armor in my lows and use R-type nanohives to heal myself and teammates.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.15 23:07:00 - [8] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Paran Tadec wrote: The other issue with logis is they are so slow. I tend to fall behind the rest of the squad, so we get separated easily, and so my weapon of choice is a laser rifle. Why do I keep hearing that? It may just be my imagination, but I'm pretty sure logi's are just as fast as assault players (unless you throw an armor plate or 2 on, like mine). The only thing faster than a Type II logi is a scout. Base movement speed on Militia Logi suit: 4.70 m/s Base sprinting speed on Militia Logi suit: 6.58 m/s Base movement speed on Militia Assault suit: 5.00 m/s Base sprinting speed on Militia Assault suit: 7.00 m/s Over the course of 5 seconds, you should expect the Logi suit to fall at least 1.5m behind. 10 seconds means they're 3m ahead of you. if you're sprinting, that speed difference increases. Type II Logi moves faster than the standard versions. EDIT: Basic Type II has the same statline as the standard Assault suits, while the B-Series (Advanced) and vk.1 (Prototype) are faster than the equivalent Assault suits, including the Assault B-Series and vk.1 variants
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.11.15 23:35:00 - [9] - Quote ugg reset wrote: In EVEGäó it's logistics job to heal caps faster than the other team can deal damage to them; this is not the case in Dust. the repair tool and remote repp mods cannot compete with the DPS. This is key. Imagine this scenario... Your team of 16 mercs is running around in a big pack; a couple of scouts are out ahead, there there is the main group with four logis and ten assaults/heavies. One of the scouts suddenly calls out: enemy gang spotted heading your way. Similar composition to your team, so should be an epic fight. You back around the corner and wait for them to run into you. In they come and the fight begins. Both teams stand out in the open, in their groups, facing each other. Your team leader calls "sucker123 is primary", so all your assualts and heavies start shooting at him. Meanwhile, the opposing team lead has called one of your squad, "poorschmuck" primary and 10 guns start ripping his shields and armour apart. Poorschmuck hits the button on his d-pad that broadcasts for reps and your four logis start repping him. The enemy logis are in proto suits and are on their game, so they easily deal with the incoming damage. Your team leader realises this so starts "switching" primaries from one target to another in the hope that the enemy logis will screw up and not get reps on fast enough. Your own logis aren't doing so well though, and poorschmuck dies. The enemy team lead immediately calls a new primary (he'd previously nominated them a "secondary" target to get everyone prepared). With the death of poorschmuck the amount of damage your team is doing is reduced, and so the enemy logi can start to relax a bit. This cycle continues until your team leader calls the retreat and everyone scrambles to escape.
ugg reset ZionTCD Legacy Rising 234	Posted - 2012.11.16 00:58:00 - [10] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: ugg reset wrote: In EVEGäó it's logistics job to heal caps faster than the other team can deal damage to them; this is not the case in Dust. the repair tool and remote repp mods cannot compete with the DPS. This is key. Imagine this scenario... Your team of 16 mercs is running around in a big pack; a couple of scouts are out ahead, there there is the main group with four logis and ten assaults/heavies. One of the scouts suddenly calls out: enemy gang spotted heading your way. Similar composition to your team, so should be an epic fight. You back around the corner and wait for them to run into you. In they come and the fight begins. Both teams stand out in the open, in their groups, facing each other. Your team leader calls "sucker123 is primary", so all your assualts and heavies start shooting at him. Meanwhile, the opposing team lead has called one of your squad, "poorschmuck" primary and 10 guns start ripping his shields and armour apart. Poorschmuck hits the button on his d-pad that broadcasts for reps and your four logis start repping him. The enemy logis are in proto suits and are on their game, so they easily deal with the incoming damage. Your team leader realises this so starts "switching" primaries from one target to another in the hope that the enemy logis will screw up and not get reps on fast enough. Your own logis aren't doing so well though, and poorschmuck dies. The enemy team lead immediately calls a new primary (he'd previously nominated them a "secondary" target to get everyone prepared). With the death of poorschmuck the amount of damage your team is doing is reduced, and so the enemy logi can start to relax a bit. This cycle continues until your team leader calls the retreat and everyone scrambles to escape. "GÇª10 guns start ripping his shields and armour apart." you left out the part where he's killed instantly. I dont care how many reppers you have on one guy, you cannot out rep dammage in this game. I'm not saying reppers are useless, far from it, but in combat you're better off pulling out your primary, using drop uplinks and nanite injectors to keep your boys in the fight. This isn't ship to ship combat; we die a lot down here! this might be a viable tactic for vehicles if you can get the enemy to prime a tank with a self repper while it's being repped by another tank or drop ship (logi lav?) with remote reps.

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.16 01:45:00 - [11] - Quote Pretty sure that was the point Gyro was making... lets highlight a few key points, shall we? R F Gyro wrote: Imagine this scenario... Your team of 16 mercs is running around in a big pack; a couple of scouts are out ahead, there there is the main group with four logis and ten assaults/heavies. One of the scouts suddenly calls out: enemy gang spotted heading your way. Similar composition to your team, so should be an epic fight. You back around the corner and wait for them to run into you. In they come and the fight begins. Seems legit... lets read on... Quote: Both teams stand out in the open, in their groups, facing each other. ...and there goes any resemblance to FPS tactics. Quote: Poorschmuck hits the button on his d-pad that broadcasts for reps and your four logis start repping him. And if all your healers are next to this one person to rep him, there's nobody providing Logistics for the rest of the map. What has to happen for FPS gameplay - particularly in objective-based game modes - is that you split into smaller groups. For DUST's gameplay, Logi isn't about making someone invulnerable like it is in EVE. Your job here is to slow the damage, not stall it. Most fights start and finish quickly, and the Logi guy is there to give his teammates an edge in combat - slow the health loss rather than stopping it, so the other guy drops first, and to clean up the mess - revive the guys who fell, and patch up the wounded before the next encounter, so your squad has a good chance of coming into the battle in better shape than the enemy. Resupply is part of the role as well, for the same reason as patching your guys up. If you run into enemies when you're low on health or ammo, you're at a disadvantage. if they're low on health and ammo, and you have a friendly Nanohive, then you have a STRONG advantage.
Jotun Hiem Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 412	Posted - 2012.11.16 02:02:00 - [12] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: I Meanwhile, the opposing team lead has called one of your squad, "poorschmuck" primary and 10 guns start ripping his shields and armour apart. I don't think proto heavies with full shield extenders and armor plates could survive ten guns long enough to even fire back, let alone receive support from anything. Also, focusing on individual targets seems like a pretty bad idea. Your guys will be looking around for the new target while the other team just rips into them. By the time any amount of your guys are focused you've already taken too many casualties.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.11.16 04:33:00 - [13] - Quote op updated to clarify the initial question. :)
Roy Bombega Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2012.11.16 04:36:00 - [14] - Quote ships in eve are way more specialized than dust merc loadouts. a logi in eve has almost zero chance of defending itself against any real threat, since the most they could fit is maybe 1 or 2 turrets. whereas a logi in dust is quite capable of defending himself, even if he just has a sidearm.
Cortez The Killer Immobile Infantry 187	Posted - 2012.11.16 06:01:00 - [15] - Quote In the current state of things, no. I say that because the team numbers aren't large enough to have a dedicated logi crew that has the sole purpose of spider tanking the front line fighters. In 16v16 matches, a logi is as useful as a fighter as a healer. Dust logis also do not have the ability to rep more than one at a time (where they rep eachother while repping the frontline fighter for their own mutual survival), which is the key to a spider tank. Logis are helpful, but in Dust, it is often easier if not cheaper to just bleed out and re-enter a battle (sometimes with a more appropriate kit for the immediate threat) with a relatively short time to be on scene.. as oppsed to an Eve battle where it might be 10min or more before you can have a new ship on the field.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 784	Posted - 2012.11.16 07:57:00 - [16] - Quote I'd have to say no. Logistics in eve fit a very specific role, and as such are very very good at that role. Logistics in dust are based on versatility. They are there to provided for a myriad of needs, more so than just reps. So, they can't really compare. That said, reps in dust don't really help during an active engagement on anything smaller than a heavy suit. Reps will generally not keep someone alive as they are being shot. Logistics and remote repair in general need a lot of love in dust, but that's a little offtopic.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 164	Posted - 2012.11.16 08:14:00 - [17] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: [quote=R F Gyro] Quote: Both teams stand out in the open, in their groups, facing each other. ...and there goes any resemblance to FPS tactics. Yes, but the example is using Eve ship tactics. Though they don't apply as Dust currently stands, it is an interesting, and likely, scenario should this kind of multi repping become possible.
Guinevere Bravo SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 140	Posted - 2012.11.16 10:29:00 - [18] - Quote I think what we are missing is some sort of passive repair "Aura" I dont mean for basic drop suits but advanced and proto. Maybe a 2 Armor per secound would be a decent starting point, would also mean we would have constant back up with people running to me rather than the other way around. I am more of a "Logistics base" operator when playing ambush, I like to get a high point secured with uplinks and nanohives so I can keep my team out of immediate danger and on the offense at the same time, it would make my life easier if i could passively help people whilst im running around keeping my area secure. Or even a module would suffice, with a high SP investment.
I-Shayz-I ZionTCD Legacy Rising 172	Posted - 2012.11.16 11:27:00 - [19] - Quote Never played eve, but the guy in the video in ugg's post seemed practically invincible when he was repping. Maybe it was because he had so many armor repairs, but gah, the logistics dropsuits are too squishy. In this eve video, the guy took a million hits and still didn't die because his armor got back up before he could be hit again. The logistics suit should automatically have an armor repair or at least more armor to compensate for how slow they end up being.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.16 14:09:00 - [20] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: R F Gyro wrote: Both teams stand out in the open, in their groups, facing each other. ...and there goes any resemblance to FPS tactics. Yes, but the example is using Eve ship tactics. Though they don't apply as Dust currently stands, it is an interesting, and likely, scenario should this kind of multi repping become possible. And that's exactly what I was trying to point out to the people commenting before me who seemed to be entirely missing what Gyro was saying.

R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.11.17 15:47:00 - [21] - Quote For those who took me too literally, my example was describing Eve combat using dust terminology to highlight the fundamental difference in the ways that logistics is used in the two games. It was in no way suggesting that Dust combat should work that way.
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.11.17 16:01:00 - [22] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: In EVE there's no question that a couple of good Logi ships can make a fleet many times more deadly than the same fleet without them. So much so that in many cases they are more valuable to the group than additional dps. I am simply wondering if beta testers in Dust who've also been exposed to the context of EVE would say that Logi's in Dust provide equivalent overall value (not equivalent overall function) to teams they run with. (Also not this is not a question about if Logi's in Dust are doing their job, just about the value of the class itself in its current iteration within CODEX). Combat in Dust is fundamentally different to (and, in many ways better than) combat in Eve, and so logistics will be fundamentally different as well. I've run logi in both, and I prefer the Dust style. In terms of value, I think logi in Dust is less valuable than in Eve (assuming the same ratio of logi to DPS in both), but in my view - and speaking as a Dust logibro - that is a good thing.


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