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Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.11.13 18:26:00 - [1] - Quote This is one of the BETTER suggestions ive read on the forums so thought id make a post and quote the person who came up with the idea HowDidThatTaste wrote: The only weekly cap should be on the maximimum sp up to that calendar week.. So new players should be allowed to grind until they catch up, to the games maximum cap. So a person two months behind could concievably catch up in a week or two of hard grinding. Cause they would not have any deminshing returns until they were caught up to the rest of us. This would allow even the most dedicated to miss a few weeks here or there and still be able to catch back up. ^ this is how it should be imo along with doubling or tripling the current weekly SP cap new players will always have a chance to catch up and hardcore can even take a break and comeback knowing they really havent missed much because all their SP that they missed for weeks are still there to be had props to HDTT for the suggestion. thoughts CCP?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.13 18:38:00 - [2] - Quote That idea is terrible. That will make it EASIER for more active players to grind and outstrip everyone else. What WOULD be good is if the diminishing returns effect was scaled based on the average player SP. If you're significantly below the average SP level, diminishing returns should kick in later, with less effect, or not at all. The diminishing returns should affect players more based on how high their SP count has built up, so new players will be penalised by the system LESS than someone who's been around a long time.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.11.13 18:38:00 - [3] - Quote It wont happen. SP DOES NOT GIVE A PLAYER AN ADVANTAGE. I don't know how many times it needs spelling out for people? Once you hit about 10m sp you don't need anything else. It add's nothing to you once you have your core skills in place, all more SP does is allow you to be more versatile and thats the reward you have for playing longer.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.11.13 18:40:00 - [4] - Quote I wish you'd all just shut up bitching about not being able to max your characters out. Its part of the game, it's a corner stone of how things are. Get over it. If you want to complain about something, complain about the SP cost of skills and how that's having more of an impact on what you can train each month rather than complaining about the cap and expecting more SP. Why don't you try to get CCP to make the SP you get, go further instead?
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1043	Posted - 2012.11.13 18:54:00 - [5] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: I wish you'd all just shut up bitching about not being able to max your characters out. Its part of the game, it's a corner stone of how things are. Get over it. If you want to complain about something, complain about the SP cost of skills and how that's having more of an impact on what you can train each month rather than complaining about the cap and expecting more SP. Why don't you try to get CCP to make the SP you get, go further instead? Word of advice from one EvE nerd to another here. The EvE way of sp won't work here so best get over yourself now. In the FPS world rewards come from actions and thats just the way it is. CCP already tried a hard cap and it failed. The only reason most people played is if they were grinding for things in the tourny. Case in point on Wed/thur 80% of the imperfects are online to grind sp or for matches. Other then that I see about 6 people on. This is what it would be long term not to mention the impact of other games. CCP can't design a game where its players are expected to play for no gain. It's that simple
exegr Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.11.13 20:54:00 - [6] - Quote Free Beers wrote: In the FPS world rewards come from actions and thats just the way it is. CCP already tried a hard cap and it failed. The only reason most people played is if they were grinding for things in the tourny. Case in point on Wed/thur 80% of the imperfects are online to grind sp or for matches. Other then that I see about 6 people on. This is what it would be long term not to mention the impact of other games. True. I've been trying to think of ways to reduce/change this behaviour but there aren't any.. Somehow rewards should have a bigger correlation to ISK/loot/insertsomethinghere than SP does at this moment. How to do that is a good question.. - Make ISK hard to come by? Well, there's always AUR (+1 for CCP money-wise) and there's always the promise of gazillions of ISK flowing from EVE (word on the street, yo). Maybe once the promise wont be met things will be different and more focus will go to ISK rather than SP. - Close the market and only allow for AUR or items from EVE players? No bc, P2W and whatever else qq. - Buy skill levels with ISK? This would shift focus to ISK directly, but we go into OP territory with gazzilion ISK guys dominating. - Buy additional clones with ISK? Potential here for a tiny shift but still sort of OP territory. Ideas needed.. :P
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1043	Posted - 2012.11.13 22:48:00 - [7] - Quote exegr wrote: Free Beers wrote: In the FPS world rewards come from actions and thats just the way it is. CCP already tried a hard cap and it failed. The only reason most people played is if they were grinding for things in the tourny. Case in point on Wed/thur 80% of the imperfects are online to grind sp or for matches. Other then that I see about 6 people on. This is what it would be long term not to mention the impact of other games. True. I've been trying to think of ways to reduce/change this behaviour but there aren't any.. Somehow rewards should have a bigger correlation to ISK/loot/insertsomethinghere than SP does at this moment. How to do that is a good question.. - Make ISK hard to come by? Well, there's always AUR (+1 for CCP money-wise) and there's always the promise of gazillions of ISK flowing from EVE (word on the street, yo). Maybe once the promise wont be met things will be different and more focus will go to ISK rather than SP. - Close the market and only allow for AUR or items from EVE players? No bc, P2W and whatever else qq. - Buy skill levels with ISK? This would shift focus to ISK directly, but we go into OP territory with gazzilion ISK guys dominating. - Buy additional clones with ISK? Potential here for a tiny shift but still sort of OP territory. Ideas needed.. :P Here is my idea posted a bit back https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=41287 Summary: - make LP gear the long term grind not sp - gear is a one time use vs skills which is persistant advantage (case in point, I hardly ever see officer gear in pubs as is) - no hard cap, but soft cap is okay for daily grinds.
ECHO PACK Wraith Shadow Guards 45	Posted - 2012.11.13 22:54:00 - [8] - Quote lets make it better and have no cap
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.11.13 23:04:00 - [9] - Quote I think the part of the reason the cap exists at all is that they don't want people grinding. But yeah, anyway, you can still compete even if you have low SP. It's not such a critical thing to be at a big SP disadvantage. It obviously is an advantage, but if you're landing headshots and the other guy isn't you're still going to win.
HowDidThatTaste Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2243	Posted - 2012.11.13 23:41:00 - [10] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: This is one of the BETTER suggestions ive read on the forums so thought id make a post and quote the person who came up with the idea HowDidThatTaste wrote: The only weekly cap should be on the maximimum sp up to that calendar week.. So new players should be allowed to grind until they catch up, to the games maximum cap. So a person two months behind could concievably catch up in a week or two of hard grinding. Cause they would not have any deminshing returns until they were caught up to the rest of us. This would allow even the most dedicated to miss a few weeks here or there and still be able to catch back up. ^ this is how it should be imo along with doubling or tripling the current weekly SP cap new players will always have a chance to catch up and hardcore can even take a break and comeback knowing they really havent missed much because all their SP that they missed for weeks are still there to be had props to HDTT for the suggestion. thoughts CCP? I would hope they would institute something like this. A player still has to grind there are no freebies to get caught up, but they must increase the cap for all of us so that there is more ncentive to play longer than a day or two each week.

corbear Ormand Algintal Core Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2012.11.13 23:53:00 - [11] - Quote Having a soft cap would work out perfectly, say at week 1, you have 500k sp, once you hit that cap, you must slowly grind SP, say 500-1k/match, you hit 560k sp by the end of week 1 (Massive grinding and no-life) week 2 comes around, your new "Soft Cap" is 1,060,000 sp. take player #2, who started on week 2 of launch, his SP cap is now 1 mil, week 3 would be 1.5, week 4 would be 2 etc. etc. just like player #1, but Now take player #3, starts at week 10, at the current cap, if you didn't hit your soft cap at all, you would be at 5 mil SP, his cap would stay at 5 mil SP, and continue to rise, leaving him the ability to catch up to the higher up players BUT his dis-advantage would be the "Soft cap" Sp that you get, say player #1 has been massively grinding this whole time Back to player#1, his advantage is the "Soft SP cap" now say that he's been averaging 60k sp/week extra, leaving him with an extra 600k sp in 10 weeks. Now I do see a small problem, CCP want's to implement a cap system where it's almost equal to EVE's system for the cross-skills (Corp Management) so one cannot simply create a merc just for a quick corp compared to EVE Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: It wont happen. SP DOES NOT GIVE A PLAYER AN ADVANTAGE. I don't know how many times it needs spelling out for people? Once you hit about 10m sp you don't need anything else. It add's nothing to you once you have your core skills in place, all more SP does is allow you to be more versatile and thats the reward you have for playing longer. I call bull, take a tactical AR, the base damage is close to 50, lets say 50 for the sake of easy math, weaponry adds 2%/level extra damage (Max of 10%) AR Proficiency adds and extra 5% damage (Max of 25%), so your talking an instant 35% extra damage, or now your doing an extra 17.5 dmg/shot, doesn't sound like a lot right? Say you can fire off 600 rpm, you'd be doing an extra 175 dmg/second compared to the basic AR user, this is just for a few skills added up 501.356=675 compared to a base of 500 @ 6 shots/second @ 50dmg/shot Same thing for the shield management and armor, say your running a shield tanked suit, 355 shields base 355*1.25 = 444~, extra 94 shields anyone? That's almost 2 more shots to down you with a tac rifle. So with maxed skills v the other guy who's running the same loadout, but he hasn't specced into that, you now are doing an extra 17.5 dmg/shot on top of an extra 100 shields, and that = no advantage? not including any more skills they shove in at us to increase damage, decrease overheating (Heavies) increase speed, shields, armor, modules etc. etc. In EVE, if anyone has tried to play it, your at a massive disadvantage for a LONG time compared to some of the higher up people, I've played it for about 4 months, and still wasn't able to PvP, your talking a year minimum just to be somewhat wanted and useful to a corp who PvP's and that's being specialized, which is why it's a massive turnoff to most people, including me, not including the massive grinding just for standings IMHO right now the SP cap pretty much says screw you for playing more (Thus giving CCP more money) also the lower end people are at a disadvantage, have you ever tried going up against a B series Assault dropsuit pimped out with a duvolle in a starter fit? Let me know how that works out for you, guarantee you won't be able to drop him even without healing of shields or armor if you had 5 lives to try you MAY kill him.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 789	Posted - 2012.11.14 00:36:00 - [12] - Quote The current gains are definitely a chore. The suggestion in the OP is a good idea, and I like it. The only problem is... You'll still have super active players playing for next to no gains, assuming they are caught up to the current calender cap with his suggestion. I'm not a fan of the cap being what it is. Like said above by Free beers : People simply won't play for next to no gains. That said : If there is gains to be had in terms of wealth/assets that makes the grind FUN instead of painful, then it's acceptable. But currently, everything about the grind is a chore! Most players usually don't make enough ISK to cover a decent suit if they field it throughout the whole match, so most people are stuck in low tier gear anyways because they simply can't afford to upgrade. CCP seems to be going under the design idea that proto suits are something you only bust out when it really counts... And I don't think that's something that will fly with most FPS players. They upgrade gear and skills for a reason. They expect to be able to use that stuff on a regular basis once they've grinded the SP to use it! Either SP gains or ISK gains need to go up. By a lot. Personally, I'm leaning more towards the ISK part. I'd like to see the cap increased either way, but I'd be fine with the cap remaining as long as the ISK grind at least isn't painful! CCP should have learned from titans... ISK barriers are not a good way to limit the use of something. Making it exspensive just means the established players will rock it all the time and the newer players won't be able to afford it. Edit : To the post immediately above mine - The part about being at a disadvantage for months in eve without being able to PVP in eve is totally false. Even a two week old character can be a great contribution to a fleet in small gang pvp. Hell, even a character who's a couple hours old can be cheap tackle! If anyone tells you that a character of any age is useless in pvp then their FC's are just plain bad and doesn't know how to use them properly!
ECHO PACK Wraith Shadow Guards 45	Posted - 2012.11.14 01:00:00 - [13] - Quote wait how about they just take away the sp cap and make experienced players battle each other while new players battle each other
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.11.14 03:42:00 - [14] - Quote ECHO PACK wrote: wait how about they just take away the sp cap and make experienced players battle each other while new players battle each other i expect this game to have a low playerbase despite being f2p, having it like this means higher tier players have longer waits to get into matches Seperating the community isnt a good move for a game like this can work in popular games like cod or halo but a niche game like this it wont look @ MAG Dom games required 256 ppl to start one match, after a couple months dom was dead because ppl got tired of waiting 10-15mins to get into a match
R'ahz Lupo Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.11.14 05:13:00 - [15] - Quote Yeah, this cap is pissing me off. I had so much SP at the beginning that I spent a little willy-nilly. I like playing versatile than only specializing at a single role. Needless to say, I'm now relegated to an average rank. I get the whole jack of all trades, master of none, but I can't get SP to do anything with anymore. I can't get more than 300 SP a match now! So now I'll be stuck in development limbo just because I wanted to mess around and see how the other guns preformed? I don't want to start all over again... :( Seriously, the SP cap is poop. The SP required to level stuff up is huge! We will have plenty of replay value to unlock it, even without an SP cap! I used to do 3,000SP a match. To unlock a high tier skill would still take 100 matches @10-15 mins each. That's huge! How many matches if I cut my SP to a tenth? That's crazy! It almost seems like those AUR items are made all the more enticing because they can skip SP requirements. How curious...
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.11.14 06:11:00 - [16] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: This is one of the BETTER suggestions ive read on the forums so thought id make a post and quote the person who came up with the idea HowDidThatTaste wrote: The only weekly cap should be on the maximimum sp up to that calendar week.. So new players should be allowed to grind until they catch up, to the games maximum cap. So a person two months behind could concievably catch up in a week or two of hard grinding. Cause they would not have any deminshing returns until they were caught up to the rest of us. This would allow even the most dedicated to miss a few weeks here or there and still be able to catch back up. ^ this is how it should be imo along with doubling or tripling the current weekly SP cap new players will always have a chance to catch up and hardcore can even take a break and comeback knowing they really havent missed much because all their SP that they missed for weeks are still there to be had props to HDTT for the suggestion. thoughts CCP? Seems fair enough, CCP has already stated their intended time to Proto for a given fit/area and clearly the numbers for SP required to level something are already in place so it'd be an easy fit to make as far as setting up an SP per week curve. Of course all of that is assuming that CCP is trying to make sure Casual players aren't outstripped by Hardcore players when it comes to SP. If we're going for an EVE style "you'll never be able to catch up but you can specialize quickly to fight on equal ground in your specialty" then I doubt we'll see it because if Dust is formatted like EVE taking time off will equal character progression lost. I suppose we'll see which dynamic CCP intends to create.
General Stonewall Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 23	Posted - 2012.11.14 06:44:00 - [17] - Quote i know this is going to sound stupid or in some way crazy but it would be win/win for CCP&us as well to do this as well as fixing the SP weekly hardcap which is BS at the current state its in . which is this do like they do with the SP boosters an make a AUR item were it is very costly but yet well worth the money for those willing to shell out the money for them is to make a AUR based item for either 1 of 2 Options which is (at least imo would make sense for those that really want SP badly to become better an better business sense for CCP): Option 1: a SP AUR based item that is priced around 50k-100k AUR item that will give you either a ton of SP like 100k-500k depending on how they wanted to do it . and the downside to being able to buy the AUR based item before everyone is like no ,no QQ the downside to this would be you get penalized for a certain amount of matches SP or as the current system is now with SP you loose a weeks worth of your HARDCAP in SP until the following week that way it makes CCP tons of money and makes the players that actually play for the SP rather grinding all week with no rewards to be given besides ISK after the first 24-48hrs of weekly reset could be done with it and come back the following week and repeat or something to that effect . Option 2: same idea as option one but with a twist make a ISK based SP based item as well but with same effect but make it such a crazy amount of it wouldn't be so easy to come by like 8mil-12mil some were in their with same effect being as Option one with the AUR only SP based item the downside being that you loose and don't get no more SP for the rest of the week or 2 depending on how CCP wanted to work out the details so that way you couldn't be like this is great i can do this every week . well no you couldn't because of the downside ( or catch as some would say) so if you bought like say 4 of these things well in that case thats on a max side of things that would equal out to 2mil SP now if it is min 100k SP each thats 400k SP total your getting then more you buy the more will carry over like 1 pack would be for 1 week so you buy 4 that's a whole month of no Hard cap SP gained but their would how ever still be passive and Softcap SP to be gained but think though their is a bigger upside than the downside at least for me their would be anyways at least then i know i would be actually playing for something .(now keep in mind the options could carry over to next build and into actual release of the game but i base them off/on the current build of the game ) now with that being said i know i can't be the only one that has similar Ideas to this or this in general . now before everyone starts QQ about it being P2W it wouldn't be if you clearly read what i am suggesting is good for newbies/CCP/and vets alike specially CCP and newbies/noobs than it would be for us vets but still huge upside for everyone which is why i say win/win CCP makes money we all get our SP and don't have to play as much or if we can't play as much we could play catch up this way in game . and its the whole reason i say make it a insane amount of ISK and AUR so that way their very hard to come by but their would be a heavy price to pay for those willing to go the extra mile for SP (risk&reward type of deal) . so that way it wouldn't be P2W for those that will QQ that it is its not its a way of solving a huge issue with the SP . now i know they are adding skill spikes later on to the game which will be AUR im assuming which will be crap compared to what im suggesting but still good a idea were everyone wins and the newcomers won't feel left out and vets won't feel as though they are grinding out all week for next to nothing asa reward and ccp in process gets richers . (thats my two cents anyways idk if anyone will read it but its a good read)
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.11.14 08:34:00 - [18] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: This is one of the BETTER suggestions ive read on the forums so thought id make a post and quote the person who came up with the idea HowDidThatTaste wrote: The only weekly cap should be on the maximimum sp up to that calendar week.. So new players should be allowed to grind until they catch up, to the games maximum cap. So a person two months behind could concievably catch up in a week or two of hard grinding. Cause they would not have any deminshing returns until they were caught up to the rest of us. This would allow even the most dedicated to miss a few weeks here or there and still be able to catch back up. ^ this is how it should be imo along with doubling or tripling the current weekly SP cap new players will always have a chance to catch up and hardcore can even take a break and comeback knowing they really havent missed much because all their SP that they missed for weeks are still there to be had props to HDTT for the suggestion. thoughts CCP? You already know i disagree with you regarding raising the weekly SP cap that much. Real problem is to make hardcore not reach the current SP cap in 2 days. It probably goes through winning way less SP per game than the first games allow at the moment. Also, having a slower SP progression on a week would maybe give that "reward" feeling so-called "hardcores" feel they deserve over casual. Why ? Because with slower SP progression on a weekly basis, hardcores should always be way closer to the cap than any casual or regular player. Thus, having overall more SP. Wich btw is already the case. I already said that in a previous thread but i have 10% less SP than the guys who play 4-5 times more than i do. And i think it's ok this way. Now, regarding new player experience. Why don't i see anyone suggest to raise starting SP you get when creating a new character depending on the overall SP count in the playerbase ? This would avoid new players not being able to do anything while still leaving ancient ones satisfied of having started sooner. Cause TBH, if i start 6 month before some dude, i dont see why he should be able to catch up in 2 week of hardcore no-lifing... In other games i'd say "meh dont care". But this is also a MMO.
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.11.14 09:22:00 - [19] - Quote All the skill progression and skill cap issues are temporary features of an incomplete game. Concerns with skill points system fall into two categories: new players can't compete in battles with older ones, and SP is the only significant reward for playing. You could keep the current system (skill points and caps) exactly as it is and it will work fine once... a) there are tangible reasons to fight other than SP grind b) matchmaking is implemented properly
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.11.14 10:13:00 - [20] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: All the skill progression and skill cap issues are temporary features of an incomplete game. Concerns with skill points system fall into two categories: new players can't compete in battles with older ones, and SP is the only significant reward for playing. You could keep the current system (skill points and caps) exactly as it is and it will work fine once... a) there are tangible reasons to fight other than SP grind b) matchmaking is implemented properly Agreed.

I-Shayz-I ZionTCD Legacy Rising 172	Posted - 2012.11.14 10:28:00 - [21] - Quote I don't understand how people get to matches where you only get 500 sp per match. I only play a few matches every day and get around 10k a match, why would anyone play this so long until you start earning that little? Wouldn't that make you want to stop playing for the day and play it the next day?
R'ahz Lupo Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.11.14 16:29:00 - [22] - Quote Can militia gear stack up against heavy moded shields and a codewish? Even if you are more skilled than your opponent, it is a tough matchup. I can't count the times I have started to shoot someone first but they cap me with a killswitch or codewish or douvelle before I can finish them off. Stack their better guns with some damage buffs too. In any other shooter I have played, it has been balanced in such a way that I could pick it up and do well based on my skill - even when using the starting guns and load outs. Dust is not like that. I do fairly well against new players and average players - even skilled players. I just can't touch the guys that rock the high tier gear. Nobody can. I take note of the kill info stream and who is killing who, with what. The high tier users are rocking steady 20:1 k/ds. Consistantly. That's nuts! Are these guys just coincidently the best players in all of the Dust server? I don't think so. So... Someone who has been playing longer will have a distinct advantage over new players or players that don't play as often. That's ridiculous. There should be no SP cap. No one should have to start a new character or get grinded into the dirt for a month because they bought a skill to experiment with. Players shouldn't be pigeon holed into a specialized role to remain somewhat effective in combat. Am I the only one who wants to sometimes be a medic, or sniper or heavy?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.14 17:08:00 - [23] - Quote R'ahz Lupo wrote: Can militia gear stack up against heavy moded shields and a codewish? Even if you are more skilled than your opponent, it is a tough matchup. I can't count the times I have started to shoot someone first but they cap me with a killswitch or codewish or douvelle before I can finish them off. Stack their better guns with some damage buffs too. In any other shooter I have played, it has been balanced in such a way that I could pick it up and do well based on my skill - even when using the starting guns and load outs. Dust is not like that. I do fairly well against new players and average players - even skilled players. I just can't touch the guys that rock the high tier gear. Nobody can. I take note of the kill info stream and who is killing who, with what. The high tier users are rocking steady 20:1 k/ds. Consistantly. That's nuts! Are these guys just coincidently the best players in all of the Dust server? I don't think so. So... Someone who has been playing longer will have a distinct advantage over new players or players that don't play as often. That's ridiculous. There should be no SP cap. No one should have to start a new character or get grinded into the dirt for a month because they bought a skill to experiment with. Players shouldn't be pigeon holed into a specialized role to remain somewhat effective in combat. Am I the only one who wants to sometimes be a medic, or sniper or heavy? Honestly, with decently-leveled skills, you can VERY heavily narrow down the gap between yourself and the "high-tier" players - EVEN if you stick with Militia gear. I've got Weaponry and Mechanics to level 5, and with pure Militia fits (either BPO-modded Starter Fits or Skinweave+BPO fittings), I can hold my own against prototype gear - including the AUR "may as well be proto" gear. I rarely come out on top, and if the other guy outplays me, I still get outplayed, but in a straight-up fight, both players playing to our advantages as well as we can, it's generally pretty even... ...even, that is, until you consider how much bigger the dent in their wallet is by the end of the match Moral of the story: SP > gear.
R'ahz Lupo Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.11.14 18:47:00 - [24] - Quote SP > gear, because SP helps you unlock the high tier gear. I do fairly well with militia builds, but I'm just getting sick of seeing crazy high tier users and their ridiculous k/d. It just hurts my soul a little :P For instance, a guy just capped me with a codewish. I remember this guy's name. I find him and track him with a sniper rifle. He engages in a fire fight with two of my team mates while I shoot him center mass. His shield goes down to half. He caps my two buddies and loses the rest of his shield and a third of his armour. He runs off on account of me missing my follow up shot(even though my reticle was red...). Is this guy THAT good, or did he have a good gear/SP advantage. I can really only play a few matches daily, except for my days off. It frustrates me to know I'm going to have a cap on my growth. Even if you get 10k SP a match, you would still need to play 15 solid matches, or 3 hours or so to get 150k SP needed to get a high tier skill, not including prerequisites. I understand CCP wants to make this game have longevity, but people will continue to play it if it's a good game, not because they want to grind SP. No SP cap!!! Grrrr! Dissent! Dissent! Whine, whine, sob! That's how I feel :P
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.14 19:03:00 - [25] - Quote R'ahz Lupo wrote: SP > gear, because SP helps you unlock the high tier gear. I do fairly well with militia builds, but I'm just getting sick of seeing crazy high tier users and their ridiculous k/d. It just hurts my soul a little :P For instance, a guy just capped me with a codewish. I remember this guy's name. I find him and track him with a sniper rifle. He engages in a fire fight with two of my team mates while I shoot him center mass. His shield goes down to half. He caps my two buddies and loses the rest of his shield and a third of his armour. He runs off on account of me missing my follow up shot(even though my reticle was red...). Is this guy THAT good, or did he have a good gear/SP advantage. Honestly, in the given example, it was more about SP and luck than gear. You got glitched out of a kill, the same thing probably would have happened if he was using the same skills and Militia gear.
R'ahz Lupo Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.11.14 19:10:00 - [26] - Quote Okay, new example... I just came from a match where I was the only player on my team with a positive k/d. One other guy managed to break even. The top four players from the enemy team used Duvolle tac rifles. There scores were 20/1, 14/0, 16/2, 12/4. Two camped out the rooftop at the center of the map. The other two guarded the base of the tower. Good tactics, by the way.... And then the precision strikes began... Anyway, did I just get dropped into the worst team ever against the four best players ever? So, how do you feel about the SP cap anyway, Blacknova?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.14 19:51:00 - [27] - Quote R'ahz Lupo wrote: Okay, new example... I just came from a match where I was the only player on my team with a positive k/d. One other guy managed to break even. The top four players from the enemy team used Duvolle tac rifles. There scores were 20/1, 14/0, 16/2, 12/4. Two camped out the rooftop at the center of the map. The other two guarded the base of the tower. Good tactics, by the way.... And then the precision strikes began... Anyway, did I just get dropped into the worst team ever against the four best players ever? So, how do you feel about the SP cap anyway, Blacknova? In that example, good, well-geared, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, well-leveled players stuck together, probably with a "defend" order on the squad leader. A few good kills with the order bonus can rack up the SP fast, and once you have enough for the first strike, that starts your next run of SP farming on a high note if you place it well. They worked together while, your team almost certainly weren't working together to break their formation, and most likely had less total SP on your entire team than those 4 spent just on maxing out their skills for ARs and survivability. If those same guys had been running a combination of Militia Snipers on the roof with Nanohives and Militia ARs on the ground, they would have probably only died a couple of times more than they actually did. Add Weaponry level 5 to a Militia Sniper Rifle - you don't even need anything in Sniper Prof, and you can take down most Prototype Dropsuits with a single headshot. It's not a sure thing, but it's not far short, and if you have any support at all, the target WILL die. I have a LOT of SPs invested in the basic Weaponry/Mechanics/Engineering/Electronics skills, and a good amount in Swarms and SMGs specifically. I've dumped a few points into ARs and Snipers for some experimentation, but not enough into either weapon to start seeing direct damage buffs. In spite of that, I'm fighting on ALMOST-even terms against players with Prototype equipment. My Starter Fit/Skinweave Assault suits can tank a lot more damage with a Militia-grade dual-tank than a player with a Prototype Sniper fit designed to one-shot Heavies.If I can avoid that first shot, or get in behind the sniper, I win. If I'm up against a tac rifle, same deal. In spite of having NO SP in the SHotgun-specific skills on my main, I do reasonably well with the Militia Shotgun too. If I'm trying to solo a coordinated group of 4 high-SP players, then... I'm going somewhere else and hoping their inevitable Orbital Strikes don't come my way too often. I'll go hunting the rest of their team. I'll wait until someone's on mic, or I'm with a group of at least 3 players who are actually working together. IF that happens in a pub match (and it can, but it's rare), we have a pretty good chance. When I say SP > gear, I don't ONLY mean that because you need SP to get the gear. One guy has Weaponry level 2, AR Ops maxed out at level 5, but no points in Prof, and none of the "Light Weapon" skills that apply to ARs. The other guy has Weaponry 5, level 1 Light Weapon Sharpshooter, level 3 Rapid Reload, and level 2 in Prof as well as maxed-out Ops. Give the guy with less AR and Light Weapon skills the best AR he can equip, and he'll be LESS effective than the high-SP guy with a Militia AR. SPs make the lower-tier gear work better as well. Two guys with identical gun-game and identical fittings, SP will be the deciding factor. Player skill - both in fitting their suits/vehicles AND in handling them - factors in more than the gear itself does. SP count (not necessarily your total SP, but SP in skills relevant to your current fitting) factors in more than the gear itself. I think SP makes slightly MORE difference than player skill, and the combination of SP and gear can make a bad player out-perform a skilled player on their alt. And my opinion on the SP cap is that it's good to PREVENT the hardcore players with lots of free time to play from outstripping everyone else too horribly. It actually makes things MORE fair on the casuals, not less. I think it would be nice if the diminishing returns effect kicked in slower on players with lower SP count, so a new character's SP earnings don't drop away as harshly as you play more often, but as you skill up, you start losing out on gradually more SP from the restrictions. For hardcore players, it's not going to be any real effect because they'll hit the cap anyway. For casuals, it'll be a benefit in getting into the game - which means they get more of a draw as they learn the depth in the system, but they'll have to work harder to skill into alternative roles after developing a primary specialty.
R'ahz Lupo Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.11.14 20:42:00 - [28] - Quote Nice answer. Another one For you. You say that you throw points into your swarm launchers. What exactly do you do? I heard a bunch of people complaining about swarms being over powered, but I can't seem to get them to work. In 32 swarm based suits I've managed to get an assist on a HV, destroy 3 LV, and I caused a bail out of a dropship. That's not a very economical return... Half the time, I'll stand on the outskirts of the map in a nano hive bubble unloading swarm after swarm at a circling dropship. Why are people complaining about swarms? Am I missing an upgrade or skill? It usually takes 2 full salvos to destroy just a LV... What's up?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.14 21:07:00 - [29] - Quote R'ahz Lupo wrote: Nice answer. Another one For you. You say that you throw points into your swarm launchers. What exactly do you do? I heard a bunch of people complaining about swarms being over powered, but I can't seem to get them to work. In 32 swarm based suits I've managed to get an assist on a HV, destroy 3 LV, and I caused a bail out of a dropship. That's not a very economical return... Half the time, I'll stand on the outskirts of the map in a nano hive bubble unloading swarm after swarm at a circling dropship. Why are people complaining about swarms? Am I missing an upgrade or skill? It usually takes 2 full salvos to destroy just a LV... What's up? I usually run with suits based - loosely - on my BPO-modded "Anti-Armour" Starter Fit. If you have some AUR to spare for Militia BPOs, you can run this fitting with no restocking required. The Starter Fit used as a base comes with a free Swarm Launcher, which is good because you can't buy a BPO for that. I swapped the Pistol out for the Toxin SMG - mostly because of CPU/PG use, but I do better with SMGs most of the time anyway. Filled both high slots with Militia Shield Extenders (With my pay-per-use suits, there's usually at least one Damage Mod, more is better) and an Armour Repper in the low slot (because I'm often behind enemy lines when i'm running free gear). Final change from the default loadout was to equip a Nanohive. If you don't have the Toxin, you can just load one Shield Extender to replace the Damage Mod if you need survival more than the damage, or if your Electronics/Engineering skills don't hold up. It requires at least 1 or 2 points in Electronics (can't remember which, but drop the repper and you don't break the Militia Assault's baseline CPU use anyway) and at least 3 points in Engineering (unless you run with only the one Shield Extender). If you're up against infantry, force the fight into enclosed spaces by any means possible. Snipers and ARs at range are NOT your friend. Sprint from cover to cover while closing the gap enough to be effective. And when you're close, get REALLY close and aim high. For vehicles, get as close as you can get away with and lock on while you've got cover between you and their guns - you WILL (no matter what EnglishSnake says) need line of sight to SOME part of the target in most cases. There are occasionally times where the game will allow a lock through a wall, but you ALMOST always need to be able to see SOMETHING. Just the edge on the LAV's bumper will be enough. Once you have a lock, you have a few seconds to reposition and re-aim. Your missiles will fire forwards a short distance before tracking. There are two good uses for this fact. Firstly, you can fire the missiles away in one direction while moving in another, to divert the return fire away from your actual destination. Secondly, you can fire around obstacles after moving further into cover. The BIG advantage Swarms have as AV weapons is a damage buff against the target's armour. If your first hit on a well-protected LAV takes more than half its shields, the second shot will almost certainly kill it. Against HAVs, where possible, either act as a distraction or focus on other targets until the shield has been softened up by someone else. Like a friendly Forge Gunner, HAV or Dropship. You CAN put a few dents in their shields, but not enough to really scare them. Also, don't forget to use Supply Depots where available, and Nanohives when there are not Depots.
ECHO PACK Wraith Shadow Guards 45	Posted - 2012.11.14 21:16:00 - [30] - Quote just take away the sp cap and force hardcore players to fight hardcore players and casuals vs casuals

R'ahz Lupo Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.11.14 21:32:00 - [31] - Quote @Blacknova Good advice versus the ground targets... So, the swarm is only really effective against armour, but lacks strength against shields? Your load out seems pretty close to mine. Everything is the same except I run with the dual light damage buffs, instead of shield extension. I never start with this class, I only swap it in when I notice a lot of vehicles out. How do you stop dropships? I can stand in a nano hive and drop 2 full mags at a dropship and watch my 30 missles slowly trail a dropship before fizzling out. I've even waited until the dropship was coming towards me, but the swarms did not go straight for it. They curved around so they could follow behind the dropship instead of heading directly at it...
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.14 22:19:00 - [32] - Quote R'ahz Lupo wrote: @Blacknova Good advice versus the ground targets... So, the swarm is only really effective against armour, but lacks strength against shields? Your load out seems pretty close to mine. Everything is the same except I run with the dual light damage buffs, instead of shield extension. I never start with this class, I only swap it in when I notice a lot of vehicles out. How do you stop dropships? I can stand in a nano hive and drop 2 full mags at a dropship and watch my 30 missles slowly trail a dropship before fizzling out. I've even waited until the dropship was coming towards me, but the swarms did not go straight for it. They curved around so they could follow behind the dropship instead of heading directly at it... You need to get close to Dropships and fire when they're slowing down. Or fire at them from the direction they're moving in - be where they're going before they get there. Otherwise, they'll just outpace your Swarms. In general, Forge Guns and gun turrets (emplacements and vehicle-mounted) are your best bet.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.12.20 14:57:00 - [33] - Quote ECHO PACK wrote: just take away the sp cap and force hardcore players to fight hardcore players and casuals vs casuals that will not work in DUST seperating the playerbase means longer wait for matches and i seriously doubt this game will have the kind of constant playerbase like cod (approx half a mill playin at all times) to warrant seperating the community into seperate playlists
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 285	Posted - 2012.12.20 16:44:00 - [34] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: That idea is terrible. That will make it EASIER for more active players to grind and outstrip everyone else. What WOULD be good is if the diminishing returns effect was scaled based on the average player SP. If you're significantly below the average SP level, diminishing returns should kick in later, with less effect, or not at all. The diminishing returns should affect players more based on how high their SP count has built up, so new players will be penalised by the system LESS than someone who's been around a long time. That system functions identical to the op's suggestion. You just worded some parts differently and made other parts unecessarily complicated.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2012.12.24 23:51:00 - [35] - Quote Here's my post from another thread, seems like these things are popping every where Gunner Visari wrote: The only issue i have with the SP cap is that it creates a mismatch for players who come into the game at later point in time n the game cycle. For instance no matter how much i play there is simply no way for me to catch players who have been playing for 6 months and what about players who come into this game a year or two down the road they just will never be able to catch up to the veteran players. So they will not be able to realistically touch them. In theory they maybe able to get enough SP to put up a fight a few years down the road but that is a big if and really wont happen until the vets reach the SP max and have skilled into everything therefore they stop moving forward. I think they should adjust the log curve so it accounts for new players to progress a bit quicker and have a higher cap that diminishes over time as they begin to catch the limit which should be set to the weekly cap x the number of weeks since the game launched. If not this then some sort of SP rollover system that would retain SP for new players to tap into for a set period of time that would allow them to accelerate their initial progression without closing the gap too quickly or too unfairly to a player that has invested years into the game. Im not sure how EVE players could abuse this system for their accts, if someone could explain that to me perhaps i can better understand that side of the argument. Edit-- I think that maybe the gripe some of these players maybe having with the caps is that its not about the fact they are progressing slowly its that they are finding they cant catch up to the vets so they can start to compete against them. Also there are players who will be casualcore who play at varied intervals but will have some days/weeks where they play a lot and it would suck for them to not be able to make the most of out that limited time. For me personally i dont mind the grind but i grind not for progression or some sense of achievement i do it cause i want to catch the vets and start to compete against them. Fortunately when the wipe comes ill be on even footing with them but once the game fully lauches with every week that passes new players will find themselves at a disadvantage agaisnt veteran players which is nice because it gives them something to work for, but if someone wants to grind and get their a bit quicker let them, shouldnt have to invest potentially 2-3 years(assuming someone came to the game that late) to try and compete that model works well for PC MMO's because of the mentality of the PC player but console players are a different breed and they will not want to do it if they cant see themselves fighting competing with the big boys insides of 1-2 years(that is very long time in console land). Just my .02 ISK Edit- It also shouldnt all be about progressing and building your character up. The truth is the reason why games began instituting prestige systems is because gamers want to grind they enjoy the grind because it gives them some sense of achievement/accomplishment. It actaully the dopaminergic reward pathway of the brain that is being stimulated by this type of achievement/reward system, basically its a form of operant conditioning. Anyway the point is if they make the grind too easy than players will hit max levels early in the game cycle lose interest and move on or simply become god in the game space. The idea behind this game is that it isnt a few months or 1 year type of progression system but multiple years progression type system. Now for hardcore players there will be other distractions to keep them busy besides the grinding like corp and FW which will basically be an endless cycle of war that has realtime effects and that will keep them busy on the days they arent progressing their character. Lastly going back to my point about operant conditioning and keep it mind if you feel somehow the game is no longer rewarding to you if you aren't progressing your character its because right now the only thing you can do is progress your character and play the same repeatable gameplay types, when the game space opens up with new modes and such you will find those things will fulfill your reward pathways.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.12.25 23:47:00 - [36] - Quote I wonder if CCP is looking into this thread at all This so far is the best option when it comes to balancing SP for late joiners tbh would like to hear if implementing a system like this is possible and how hard would it be to do something like this?
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2013.01.08 11:49:00 - [37] - Quote sooo new SP daily cap blows think ppl need to see this again......... dont force ppl to treat DUST like a job CCP making ppl have to be on everyday in order to not miss SP
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2013.01.08 12:10:00 - [38] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: This is one of the BETTER suggestions ive read on the forums so thought id make a post and quote the person who came up with the idea HowDidThatTaste wrote: The only weekly cap should be on the maximimum sp up to that calendar week.. So new players should be allowed to grind until they catch up, to the games maximum cap. So a person two months behind could concievably catch up in a week or two of hard grinding. Cause they would not have any deminshing returns until they were caught up to the rest of us. This would allow even the most dedicated to miss a few weeks here or there and still be able to catch back up. ^ this is how it should be imo along with doubling or tripling the current weekly SP cap new players will always have a chance to catch up and hardcore can even take a break and comeback knowing they really havent missed much because all their SP that they missed for weeks are still there to be had props to HDTT for the suggestion. thoughts CCP? I fully agree with a "catching-up" system. But maybe not to the point where they could reach max SP in over two weeks. I'd rather a system based on the average player base global SP. This would only include people with at least a definite amount of game time in order to avoid ALT accounts lowering it too much. And then, maybe add a specific amount of SP to the weekly\daily Cap based on how far the dude is from that average global SP stat. Something like that, nicely done, would be a great addition to the game.


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