DUST Search - [Feedback] Laser rifle tweaks (range, effect of sharpshooting skills, heat built...

KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:

Musta Tornius wrote:

KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:

For everyone's information before you request for hasher overheating,

Laser Rifles DO overheat currently. it was fixed something like halfway of October.
And I'm talking about ELM which previously did not overheat.

I just made a new alt, got level 3 in laser skill. I bought a laser and an elm laser and made two suits, started ambush and emptied the laser's clip, it only went to 79 shots fired, which is the same as having laser level 1, so that's still broken.

I then tried the Elm laser and it did not overheat, it got to maybe 90% heat then the clip was empty so overheating can not happen with that weapon. I can't check prototype because of skill points.

I got the same set of skills and ELM really DOES overheat. The mechanic exists. Once I even suicided by that.
But as change is the only constant, I'm gonna test that once more tonight in case that is not true anymore.

Please note two things:
- This is still the second iteration of laser rifles and there are high chance that laser damage model and hit mechanic is of the greatest interest of the devs
- At this moment training up the laser skills is wasted SP because of too small heat build up. So, definately heating (or some other price of using) must be made greater.

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Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.10.31 15:20:00 - [1] - Quote So, here's a little something about laser rifle from my experience and a little math i did. First, the "weapon range topic" from Musta was of great use for this. So thanks for the work pal. Back to laser rifle. Sharpshooter skills effect on Laser Rifle optimal Range. At the moment, each level of the sharpshooter skill raises both the lower and higher limits of the weapons optimal range. And the result is that the weapon's behavior can change drastically with every level you add in this skill, making more and more useless in most fights. Here's the math Laser Rifle Max Range: 81m Optimal Range: 61 - 78m Now, with both light sharpshooting skills maxed : Meaning, 40% bonus in range. Laser Rifle Max Range: 113 m Optimal Range: 85 - 109m See, the weapon becomes more and more a long ranged weapon. It could be a choice but you tend to enhance those skills as they're usefull for other light weapons. So here, you got skills not enhancing the weapon, but changing it. Making it less good in a way as you're more and more handicapped in middle range fights. Now, there's two solutions. Either block the lower limit. Or lower it for each sharpshooting skill level. See what would get. 1) Blocking lower limit solution Laser Rifle Max Range: 113 m Optimal Range: 61 - 109m Ok, so not much has changed except the optimal range has increased a lot and the behavior of the weapon will overall be a either unchanged at middle range or way optimised at longed range. 2) Lowering lower limit solution Laser Rifle Max Range: 113m Optimal Range: 37 - 109m So, we get an optimal range of more than 70m. And laser now becomes a very effective weapon, even under mid-range as the decrease in damage is proportionnal to the distance below the optimal range. Shooting at 30m would still inflict a 70% damage or something where with "blocked limit", you would shoot at 50 % or so. In the end. My favorite option would be the "blocked lower limit" one. Would avoid the annoyance of feeling optimal range moving and not actually increasing while still keeping the laser in its role. Maybe set this limit to 60 for every laser and you're good. Tweak Heat built-up So, i've only used the standard laser rifle and have only invested in lvl 1 in laser rifle. Yet, i think i over-heated maybe 7-8 times in a hundred games i played using it. Imo, heat built up should be slightly increased. And of course, the fact that advanced and proto Laser Rifle simply DO NOT heat up needs to be fixed. That's it for me. Overall, laser rifle are a great addition to the game that doesnt need that much fixing, nerfing or else. It's a smart weapon that's both usefull and deadly without being any kind of OP. Great job on that one.
Musta Tornius BetaMax. 265	Posted - 2012.10.31 15:36:00 - [2] - Quote Totally agree with this. I'd like to see a lowering of the limit myself as I feel it would make it more useful. At the moment if you're less than 20-30 from the enemy you have to draw a sidearm to actually be able to inflict decent damage. The skill doesn't do anything at all at the moment so it needs bug fixing. Currently the first level laser overheats after 79 shots fired, changing this to 50 and making the skill work would make sense. As Caz mentioned the adv and proto doesn't overheat at all so maybe the proto could overheat quicker if it's base damage was increased slightly. It would be immensely helpful if a Dev would tell us what the damage increment for the laser is and if's the same across all levels. A dev already mentioned it was a fixed amount but couldn't remember what it was exactly.
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.10.31 15:46:00 - [3] - Quote Musta Tornius wrote: Totally agree with this. I'd like to see a lowering of the limit myself as I feel it would make it more useful. At the moment if you're less than 20-30 from the enemy you have to draw a sidearm to actually be able to inflict decent damage. The skill doesn't do anything at all at the moment so it needs bug fixing. Currently the first level laser overheats after 79 shots fired, changing this to 50 and making the skill work would make sense. As Caz mentioned the adv and proto doesn't overheat at all so maybe the proto could overheat quicker if it's base damage was increased slightly. It would be immensely helpful if a Dev would tell us what the damage increment for the laser is and if's the same across all levels. A dev already mentioned it was a fixed amount but couldn't remember what it was exactly. yep, time for dev word on lasers :)
Rains Akkadian BetaMax. 28	Posted - 2012.10.31 17:22:00 - [4] - Quote What if the proficiency skills were to effect the width of the optimum range bracket instead of adjusting the lower and upper ranges independently. Increasing the max effective range from 78 to 109 (which would be a 40% increase) and decreasing the minimum effective range to from 61 to 37 (which would be a 40% decrease) would arguably give you considerably more than a 40% improvement to the optimum range bracket. i.e. 61 - 78 (width of 17) changed to 37 - 109 (width of 72) has given a 423% increase from 17 to 72. If you concentrated on increasing the width (17) by 40% to 24 you get 57 - 82 optimum range bracket. I appreciate that isn't much of an improvement but that is how I would envisage the optimum range improved by 40%
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.10.31 17:28:00 - [5] - Quote +1 I would post this problem in the codex feedback thread also if I was you.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.10.31 17:42:00 - [6] - Quote 125% and 115% are 144.5%. Simplest is to not raise the lower limit with sharpshooter. best is to rase max range normally, and add 1/2 of the optimal increase to each side of current band. I didn't realize the overheat was messed up, I only used the standard and didn't notice the broken skill.
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 248	Posted - 2012.10.31 23:38:00 - [7] - Quote For everyone's information before you request for hasher overheating, Laser Rifles DO overheat currently. it was fixed something like halfway of October. And I'm talking about ELM which previously did not overheat.
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 248	Posted - 2012.11.01 00:08:00 - [8] - Quote Actually, I'd like the damage model and persona of this current laser transferred to an another type of weapon, perhaps: Tesla gun, graviton gun whatever. Whatever would make more sense for having damage increased over distance and then abruptly disappear altogether. I'd like to keep laser a simple 'pointier' thing which disappears over distance quietly.
Skold Hagradsson Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 8	Posted - 2012.11.01 04:43:00 - [9] - Quote I think the issue that's needs resolving is whether in a science fiction game you are limited by science, or not. Eve lasers work with crystals that you can swap out. So i can use multi frequency at short range and infra red for long range. The issue is the focusing of the beam to converge at a point and at that point you get the extra damage. While it would be great to increase that 'killzone' it would also make them op. the fact that you need a side arm at short range is a good thing. Other wise we may as well all carry ARs. I do agree that the range increase changes the usability of the gun, and the gun is very much a paradox with sharpshooter, it has no scope but is a medium long range rifle. AR is short medium but has scope. But the laser cannot be the multi function gun at all ranges, if that was the case you would never need a side arm. At present we don't have the assault breach variants of the laser. When we have all the current weapons we&ccp need to work on where all the weapons fit to get a role for each, with overlaps and alternatives. The AR discussion about the neutered breach AR is an example of how weapons lose a role with quick fix balancing. Leave laser for now, let's see the variants, and then work out what goes where and competition areas.
Kazeno Rannaa Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 145	Posted - 2012.11.01 07:31:00 - [10] - Quote Bump that thought process.Though I have to say this has been the most conducive and constructive posting on the forums to date.

Musta Tornius BetaMax. 265	Posted - 2012.11.01 13:00:00 - [11] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: For everyone's information before you request for hasher overheating, Laser Rifles DO overheat currently. it was fixed something like halfway of October. And I'm talking about ELM which previously did not overheat. I just made a new alt, got level 3 in laser skill. I bought a laser and an elm laser and made two suits, started ambush and emptied the laser's clip, it only went to 79 shots fired, which is the same as having laser level 1, so that's still broken. I then tried the Elm laser and it did not overheat, it got to maybe 90% heat then the clip was empty so overheating can not happen with that weapon. I can't check prototype because of skill points.
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.11.02 12:48:00 - [12] - Quote Musta Tornius wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: For everyone's information before you request for hasher overheating, Laser Rifles DO overheat currently. it was fixed something like halfway of October. And I'm talking about ELM which previously did not overheat. I just made a new alt, got level 3 in laser skill. I bought a laser and an elm laser and made two suits, started ambush and emptied the laser's clip, it only went to 79 shots fired, which is the same as having laser level 1, so that's still broken. I then tried the Elm laser and it did not overheat, it got to maybe 90% heat then the clip was empty so overheating can not happen with that weapon. I can't check prototype because of skill points. Musta, or mister Fact ^^
Musta Tornius BetaMax. 265	Posted - 2012.11.02 18:23:00 - [13] - Quote Awesome news, I caught ccp wolfman on irc and whilst I can't post logs till sunday I wanted to share that he confirmed the damage coefficient to be 0.6. I'll get back with a number table on sunday so we can talk more about the damage!
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 248	Posted - 2012.11.02 19:08:00 - [14] - Quote Musta Tornius wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: For everyone's information before you request for hasher overheating, Laser Rifles DO overheat currently. it was fixed something like halfway of October. And I'm talking about ELM which previously did not overheat. I just made a new alt, got level 3 in laser skill. I bought a laser and an elm laser and made two suits, started ambush and emptied the laser's clip, it only went to 79 shots fired, which is the same as having laser level 1, so that's still broken. I then tried the Elm laser and it did not overheat, it got to maybe 90% heat then the clip was empty so overheating can not happen with that weapon. I can't check prototype because of skill points. I got the same set of skills and ELM really DOES overheat. The mechanic exists. Once I even suicided by that. But as change is the only constant, I'm gonna test that once more tonight in case that is not true anymore. Please note two things: - This is still the second iteration of laser rifles and there are high chance that laser damage model and hit mechanic is of the greatest interest of the devs - At this moment training up the laser skills is wasted SP because of too small heat build up. So, definately heating (or some other price of using) must be made greater. EDIT: ELM does NOT overheat. Corrected. Had wrong fitting. My apologies.
Villanor Aquarius Shattered Ascension 79	Posted - 2012.11.03 05:55:00 - [15] - Quote I support the capped lower end range, where the max range increases but the lower end stays the same or increases slightly. I also am in favor of increased heat build up but I think if this is done the interval or pulse that the laser's damage is applied in ought to be shortened. Currently if you just draw the beam over someone it does no damage if you move too fast. The beam has to actually be held on them, albeit briefly, in order to do damage and this makes it really easy to not get that last sliver of health. In short having the max range increase while the short end remained the same or minimally raises. Having faster heat build up. Making the damage application be done more as a beam and less as a series of pulses.
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.11.03 13:50:00 - [16] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Musta Tornius wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: For everyone's information before you request for hasher overheating, Laser Rifles DO overheat currently. it was fixed something like halfway of October. And I'm talking about ELM which previously did not overheat. I just made a new alt, got level 3 in laser skill. I bought a laser and an elm laser and made two suits, started ambush and emptied the laser's clip, it only went to 79 shots fired, which is the same as having laser level 1, so that's still broken. I then tried the Elm laser and it did not overheat, it got to maybe 90% heat then the clip was empty so overheating can not happen with that weapon. I can't check prototype because of skill points. I got the same set of skills and ELM really DOES overheat. The mechanic exists. Once I even suicided by that. But as change is the only constant, I'm gonna test that once more tonight in case that is not true anymore. Please note two things: - This is still the second iteration of laser rifles and there are high chance that laser damage model and hit mechanic is of the greatest interest of the devs - At this moment training up the laser skills is wasted SP because of too small heat build up. So, definately heating (or some other price of using) must be made greater. we agree, it is still WIP. Yet, i think the weapon is overall pretty balanced already and just needs small adjustments.
Musta Tornius BetaMax. 265	Posted - 2012.11.06 09:32:00 - [17] - Quote Hiya, just wanted to update this thread with the damage numbers for laser rifles as CCP Wolfman was generous enough to share the damage increase for laser rifles. I just done a quick calculation using that. Shots fired_______1 ___2 ___3___10__20__30___40__50__60___70__79__90__100 Laser Rifle_______15.6 16.2 16.8 21.0 27.0 33.0 39.0 45.0 51.0 57.0 62.4 ELM-7 Laser Rifle 15.6 16.2 16.8 21.0 27.0 33.0 39.0 45.0 51.0 57.0 62.4 69.0 75.0 Viziam Laser Rifle 20.6 21.2 21.8 26.0 32.0 38.0 44.0 50.0 56.0 62.0 67.4 74.0 80.0 79 is the last shot the laser rifle can fire before overheating so I added that as the last shot for laser rifle in the table. The viziam is basically 5 damage ahead of every shot of the ELM-7. Does it make a big difference when playing? I doubt that very much so. But this shows that the laser is quite a beast if you have kept the trigger down for some time as we already knew. Oh and btw, I timed the elm-7, it empties its clip in 8 seconds flat meaning that the Laser Rifle shoots a pulse every 0.08 seconds or each 80ms. A standard frame rate of 24 fps is around 40 ms I do believe without checking my maths. Sorry for the shittily formatted table, we need a table function here!
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.11.06 09:45:00 - [18] - Quote Musta Tornius wrote: Hiya, just wanted to update this thread with the damage numbers for laser rifles as CCP Wolfman was generous enough to share the damage increase for laser rifles. I just done a quick calculation using that. Shots fired_______1 ___2 ___3___10__20__30___40__50__60___70__79__90__100 Laser Rifle_______15.6 16.2 16.8 21.0 27.0 33.0 39.0 45.0 51.0 57.0 62.4 ELM-7 Laser Rifle 15.6 16.2 16.8 21.0 27.0 33.0 39.0 45.0 51.0 57.0 62.4 69.0 75.0 Viziam Laser Rifle 20.6 21.2 21.8 26.0 32.0 38.0 44.0 50.0 56.0 62.0 67.4 74.0 80.0 79 is the last shot the laser rifle can fire before overheating so I added that as the last shot for laser rifle in the table. The viziam is basically 5 damage ahead of every shot of the ELM-7. Does it make a big difference when playing? I doubt that very much so. But this shows that the laser is quite a beast if you have kept the trigger down for some time as we already knew. Oh and btw, I timed the elm-7, it empties its clip in 8 seconds flat meaning that the Laser Rifle shoots a pulse every 0.08 seconds or each 80ms. A standard frame rate of 24 fps is around 40 ms I do believe without checking my maths. Sorry for the shittily formatted table, we need a table function here! ouch
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 248	Posted - 2012.11.23 01:13:00 - [19] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: [quote=Musta Tornius] I got the same set of skills and ELM really DOES overheat. The mechanic exists. Once I even suicided by that. But as change is the only constant, I'm gonna test that once more tonight in case that is not true anymore. CORRECTION: I was wrong. I accidentally had for some reason a basic LR fitted event though I use only ELM's. I can now confirm, that on this date, ELM does NOT overheat. (but for some reason haven't managed to get kill streaks like I used to - a slight tune down done perhaps?)


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