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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 03:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
This question is asked specifically within the context of Dust 514 and about tangible/traceable in game metrics which could be directly used for game balance purposes.
Ok, so I'm aware of what the terms mean generally, but when we speak of Dust 514 specifically what defines a "casual" player? Where's the line which pushes someone into "hardcore" territory?
I'm interested in player base sentiments on this (yes that means you unless you can't resist trolling ). I'd also love to hear how CCP is defining this.
The current Skill Point system is in part presented as a balance for Casual players so they are not outstripped by Hardcore players, but who's who?
If you play 7 hours of Dust in a week (counting all time from game client boot up, till game client shutdown as "play time" for this example) does that make you a "casual" or a "hardcore" player? (also please include a "why" here, detailed feedback > vague/general proclamations)
UPDATE:
Cross Atu wrote:I'm going to rephrase this question, see the following.
Which in game mechanics and/or metrics do you think CCP should use to define "Casual" and "Hardcore" such that the most rewarding and long lasting play experience in Dust 514 is promoted?
The key to this is finding traceable elements within the game that can be used by CCP to identify "Casual" and "Hardcore".
Post back with your sense of what they should be and why. Please be detailed.
Cheers, Cross |
Flagratus
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
69
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 03:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Interesting question. I play 5 to 6 hours a day, between work, wife, beer, eating, beer. I'd consider myself casual, I never hit the SP Cap. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
384
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 03:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
A casual player seems like someone who'll play every once in a while, mainly in high sec but goes into lower systems for the thrill.
As for hardcore, i can't explain it without it becoming about people who grind all day, every day |
dent 308
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
967
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 03:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Without involving money I would say investment. Time / effort / thought / practice = payoff. This is what differentiates the hardcore player in the long game, compared to the casual who will wander off after a month. |
D3aTH D3alER54
The Southern Legion
130
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 03:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:A casual player seems like someone who'll play every once in a while, mainly in high sec but goes into lower systems for the thrill.
As for hardcore, i can't explain it without it becoming about people who grind all day, every day No those are the no lifers, hardcore is what i think the 2nd guy who posted is, because i play even less then that (4-5 hrs) and i consider myself HC LOL, or maybe apparently not? I think it also depends on how good you are on a particular game in conjunction with how many hrs you put into it. I'd say casual is more like 1-2hrs a day tbh.. because there never that good lol. But alot of things determine it, including persistence, etc.. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
384
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 03:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
D3aTH D3alER54 wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:A casual player seems like someone who'll play every once in a while, mainly in high sec but goes into lower systems for the thrill.
As for hardcore, i can't explain it without it becoming about people who grind all day, every day No those are the no lifers, hardcore is what i think the 2nd guy who posted is, because i play even less then that (4-5 hrs) and i consider myself HC LOL, or maybe apparently not? I think it also depends on how good you are on a particular game in conjunction with how many hrs you put into it. I'd say casual is more like 1-2hrs a day tbh.. because there never that good lol. But alot of things determine it, including persistence, etc..
Hardcore, a person looking to make a lasting impression on new eden, whether it's defying massive alliances or becoming uber rich through persistence, hardwork, and good leadership.
Seem about right? |
Zekain Kade
BetaMax.
931
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 03:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Casual: A player that does not care about about winning or losing, he is just there to have a good time.
Competitive/ hardcore player: A player who wants to win at all costs. |
Prince Ombra
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
29
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 03:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Flagratus wrote:Interesting question. I play 5 to 6 hours a day, between work, wife, beer, eating, beer. I'd consider myself casual, I never hit the SP Cap. That would be 40 hours a week which would make it the same as a full-time job. Sorry, but there's no way that's casual. I'm surprised that you haven't hit the cap yet, I only play 1-2 hours a day and I was approaching the cap by the end of the first week of the new build. I've never hit 0 but 1000 SP for killing 10 people sounds pretty close to the cap. |
Vance Alken
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
94
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 03:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
For Dust I imagine it's as simple as hitting the SP cap or not.
Of course, like Eve, there will probably be very important (hardcore) players who don't log on all that often :p |
D3aTH D3alER54
The Southern Legion
130
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 03:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Yes all good arguments =) but it comes down to one thing- To be or not to be! |
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D3aTH D3alER54
The Southern Legion
130
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 03:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Prince Ombra wrote:Flagratus wrote:Interesting question. I play 5 to 6 hours a day, between work, wife, beer, eating, beer. I'd consider myself casual, I never hit the SP Cap. That would be 40 hours a week which would make it the same as a full-time job. Sorry, but there's no way that's casual. I'm surprised that you haven't hit the cap yet, I only play 1-2 hours a day and I was approaching the cap by the end of the first week of the new build. I've never hit 0 but 1000 SP for killing 10 people sounds pretty close to the cap.
I know alot of people that play at night, when they get time to sleep i do not know... |
Shiro Mokuzan
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
106
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 03:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
It's not about how many hours someone plays. There are people that play Bejewelled or Angry Birds for hours every day. That doesn't mean they're not still casual.
It's more about the amount of depth and complexity someone wants from a game I think. |
D3aTH D3alER54
The Southern Legion
130
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 03:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Shiro Mokuzan wrote:It's not about how many hours someone plays. There are people that play Bejewelled or Angry Birds for hours every day. That doesn't mean they're not still casual.
It's more about the amount of depth and complexity someone wants from a game I think.
If that's true then i'm too far gone ! |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
810
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 03:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
I would personally put the divider somewhere around the 5-7 hours a week mark. I play around 4 or 5 hours a week and would consider myself right close to the edge of being a "hardcore" player. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 03:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
I like the thoughtful posts so far, thanks to all who've responded
I'd like to try and direct the thread a bit more towards average play time (per week or day, just state which one you're using) and specifically in Dust 514.
Some of the descriptions posted here are great examples of results Hardcore players seek (and I think they're pretty accurate really) but since clearly CCP isn't in the business of making a game where your choices and actions are irrelevant (look at the trailer for Dust as one example... or you know, EVE Online). The question becomes when they say this
Quote:The following topics were discussed by the dev team this week regarding gameplay issues in the beta:
Casual vs. Hardcore players in DUST 514
Player concern on how will casual players be able to keep up with hardcore players who might spend more time playing and gaining an advantage in SP and ISK.
Planned resolutions - A revamped reward system will narrow the gap between casual and hardcore players - Match Making system (introduced soon) will help put players into fair matches - Dropsuit HP will be more consistant to avoid some becoming overpowered Source
What do they mean? Which comes down to a question of "how much play time equals hardcore/casual" And secondarily do we as players agree with them? (more specifically do we find the iteration of mechanics and features they've put in place under their current definition to provide a rewarding play experience) Because we're in a beta and that is relevant feedback.
Cheers, Cross
ps ~ it's also worth gaining some idea how many hours of play per week is about average for Dust, because for my 0.02 ISK if the player base is being divided into two camps (I don't think it should be, but that's almost another issue on it's own) then "Casual" would have to encompass all play times up to (and including?) the median while "Hardcore" would have to account for all the play times above the median.
Trying to balance around that seems problematic to me, but that's likely a thread in it's own right. |
Cloud Mountain
7
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 04:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Casual: you play dust
Hardcore: dust plays you |
D3aTH D3alER54
The Southern Legion
130
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 04:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:I would personally put the divider somewhere around the 5-7 hours a week mark. I play around 4 or 5 hours a week and would consider myself right close to the edge of being a "hardcore" player. Ok, let me get ready for this, it's going to be a big one!
LOLLL!!!!!!! 5-7hrs a week and you consider yourself a HC player!?!? I play that nearly every 2days and even i don't consider myself "HC", and people think i'm the troll.................... |
KripnawtiQ Prime
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
206
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 04:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
Hmm. Casual/Hardcore=how important is playing games to you when you have free time? I'm playing Borderlands 2, DUST and XCOM right now. I think many would consider this hardcore. But at the same time I play much less than other players because I work 48-60 hrs per week. If I had more time I would definately play more. To me casual doesn't necessarily mean playing less. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 06:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
KripnawtiQ Prime wrote:Hmm. Casual/Hardcore=how important is playing games to you when you have free time? I'm playing Borderlands 2, DUST and XCOM right now. I think many would consider this hardcore. But at the same time I play much less than other players because I work 48-60 hrs per week. If I had more time I would definately play more. To me casual doesn't necessarily mean playing less.
I'd agree generally however that's not something which could actually be balanced around. And what with CCP specifically stating that it's a balance consideration I figured time played as one of the only traceable metrics which could be used.
Hence why I'm trying to get feedback regarding how many hours per week in Dust 514 it would take to be considered "Hardcore" as opposed to "Casual".
I suppose I'm asking "what's hardcore vs casual play within Dust 514" as opposed to "what makes a Hardcore vs Casual gamer" because the latter doesn't pertain so directly to game balance.
Thanks for the response Cross |
Sobriety Denied
Universal Allies Inc.
432
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 07:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
you're casual, i'm hardcore. there. you get it now? |
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Sobriety Denied
Universal Allies Inc.
432
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 07:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
casual http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmm_SjUAK7I
VS
hardcore http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZPsDoYsXYs |
KripnawtiQ Prime
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
206
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 08:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:KripnawtiQ Prime wrote:Hmm. Casual/Hardcore=how important is playing games to you when you have free time? I'm playing Borderlands 2, DUST and XCOM right now. I think many would consider this hardcore. But at the same time I play much less than other players because I work 48-60 hrs per week. If I had more time I would definately play more. To me casual doesn't necessarily mean playing less. I'd agree generally however that's not something which could actually be balanced around. And what with CCP specifically stating that it's a balance consideration I figured time played as one of the only traceable metrics which could be used. Hence why I'm trying to get feedback regarding how many hours per week in Dust 514 it would take to be considered "Hardcore" as opposed to "Casual". I suppose I'm asking "what's hardcore vs casual play within Dust 514" as opposed to "what makes a Hardcore vs Casual gamer" because the latter doesn't pertain so directly to game balance. Thanks for the response Cross
Over 21 hrs per week playing DUST. Thats 3 hrs per day average and basicaly makes DUST a part time job :) |
Jack McReady
A.C.M.E Corp
71
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 08:20:00 -
[23] - Quote
Zekain Kade wrote:Casual: A player that does not care about about winning or losing, he is just there to have a good time.
Competitive/ hardcore player: A player who wants to win at all costs. I dont agree with this. A casual player can also play to win but a casual will put less effort into it.
the level of competitiveness is defined by the effort you are willing to put into something. |
Longshot Ravenwood
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
680
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 08:23:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cloud Mountain wrote:Casual: you play dust
Hardcore: dust plays you Pretty much.
Casual: "Weekend Warrior" - 8 to 24 hour a week gamer (typically on their weekend, when they don't have anything better to do). Casual: "The Hobbyist" - 4 to 12 hour a week gamer. Casual: "The Occasional" - ??? hours a week (Dust 514? Yeah I'm in that beta. No, I haven't played any matches yet this week.)
Hardcore: "The College Student" - 20 to 30 hour a week gamer (whenver they can fit it in and they don't have anything better to do) Hardcore: "The Professional" - 40 hours a week gamer. Hardcore: "The No Lifer" - 80 hours a week gamer |
Lion Redstar
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
66
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 08:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:
Hardcore, a person looking to make a lasting impression on new eden, whether it's defying massive alliances or becoming uber rich through persistence, hardwork, and good leadership.
Seem about right?
Zekain Kade wrote:Casual: A player that does not care about about winning or losing, he is just there to have a good time.
Competitive/ hardcore player: A player who wants to win at all costs.
^^ This two kind of sum all for me. Btw, if there's a middle term, I guess that's where I fit |
KripnawtiQ Prime
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
206
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 09:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
Longshot Ravenwood wrote:Cloud Mountain wrote:Casual: you play dust
Hardcore: dust plays you Pretty much. Casual: "Weekend Warrior" - 8 to 24 hour a week gamer (typically on their weekend, when they don't have anything better to do). Casual: "The Hobbyist" - 4 to 12 hour a week gamer. Casual: "The Occasional" - ??? hours a week (Dust 514? Yeah I'm in that beta. No, I haven't played any matches yet this week.) Hardcore: "The College Student" - 20 to 30 hour a week gamer (whenver they can fit it in and they don't have anything better to do) Hardcore: "The Professional" - 40 hours a week gamer. Hardcore: "The No Lifer" - 80 hours a week gamer
Can u imagine the size of the **** collection of a guy that plays DUST 80 hrs a week?! trololol |
D3aTH D3alER54
The Southern Legion
130
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 09:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
Longshot Ravenwood wrote:Cloud Mountain wrote:Casual: you play dust
Hardcore: dust plays you Pretty much. Casual: "Weekend Warrior" - 8 to 24 hour a week gamer (typically on their weekend, when they don't have anything better to do). Casual: "The Hobbyist" - 4 to 12 hour a week gamer. Casual: "The Occasional" - ??? hours a week (Dust 514? Yeah I'm in that beta. No, I haven't played any matches yet this week.) Hardcore: "The College Student" - 20 to 30 hour a week gamer (whenver they can fit it in and they don't have anything better to do) Hardcore: "The Professional" - 40 hours a week gamer. Hardcore: "The No Lifer" - 80 hours a week gamer
Good list bro, seems legit.. +1 |
BLENDEDDAVE
WARRIORS 1NC
52
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 10:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Longshot Ravenwood wrote:Cloud Mountain wrote:Casual: you play dust
Hardcore: dust plays you Pretty much. Casual: "Weekend Warrior" - 8 to 24 hour a week gamer (typically on their weekend, when they don't have anything better to do). Casual: "The Hobbyist" - 4 to 12 hour a week gamer. Casual: "The Occasional" - ??? hours a week (Dust 514? Yeah I'm in that beta. No, I haven't played any matches yet this week.) Hardcore: "The College Student" - 20 to 30 hour a week gamer (whenver they can fit it in and they don't have anything better to do) Hardcore: "The Professional" - 40 hours a week gamer. Hardcore: "The No Lifer" - 80 hours a week gamer
this^^^ i am a Lifer very said |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 11:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
Longshot Ravenwood wrote:Cloud Mountain wrote:Casual: you play dust
Hardcore: dust plays you Pretty much. Casual: "Weekend Warrior" - 8 to 24 hour a week gamer (typically on their weekend, when they don't have anything better to do). Casual: "The Hobbyist" - 4 to 12 hour a week gamer. Casual: "The Occasional" - ??? hours a week (Dust 514? Yeah I'm in that beta. No, I haven't played any matches yet this week.) Hardcore: "The College Student" - 20 to 30 hour a week gamer (whenver they can fit it in and they don't have anything better to do) Hardcore: "The Professional" - 40 hours a week gamer. Hardcore: "The No Lifer" - 80 hours a week gamer
I like it, displays the degrees within both terms as well including the possible overlap between 'Weekend Warrior' and "College Student".
With a list like this for us to look at, I wonder what the sense is among testers regarding which level of casual CCP is trying to balance SP awards to within Codex? (I have my sense but I want to hear a few ideas from others before I throw in my 0.02 ISK on that front).
Cheers, Cross |
Oxskull Duncarino
Shadow Company HQ
163
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 11:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
Longshot Ravenwood wrote:Cloud Mountain wrote:Casual: you play dust
Hardcore: dust plays you Pretty much. Casual: "Weekend Warrior" - 8 to 24 hour a week gamer (typically on their weekend, when they don't have anything better to do). Casual: "The Hobbyist" - 4 to 12 hour a week gamer. Casual: "The Occasional" - ??? hours a week (Dust 514? Yeah I'm in that beta. No, I haven't played any matches yet this week.) Hardcore: "The College Student" - 20 to 30 hour a week gamer (whenver they can fit it in and they don't have anything better to do) Hardcore: "The Professional" - 40 hours a week gamer. Hardcore: "The No Lifer" - 80 hours a week gamer Nicely done. I'm in the group Hardcore: "The College Student". |
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Debacle Nano
Shadow Company HQ
639
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 11:14:00 -
[31] - Quote
Oxskull Duncarino wrote:Longshot Ravenwood wrote:Cloud Mountain wrote:Casual: you play dust
Hardcore: dust plays you Pretty much. Casual: "Weekend Warrior" - 8 to 24 hour a week gamer (typically on their weekend, when they don't have anything better to do). Casual: "The Hobbyist" - 4 to 12 hour a week gamer. Casual: "The Occasional" - ??? hours a week (Dust 514? Yeah I'm in that beta. No, I haven't played any matches yet this week.) Hardcore: "The College Student" - 20 to 30 hour a week gamer (whenver they can fit it in and they don't have anything better to do) Hardcore: "The Professional" - 40 hours a week gamer. Hardcore: "The No Lifer" - 80 hours a week gamer Nicely done. I'm in the group Hardcore: "The College Student". Your on early. Haha |
BASSMEANT
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
109
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 13:19:00 -
[32] - Quote
casuals are the ones who ask "what does casual vs hardcore mean"?
hardcore are the ones who take the time graph it all out.
20% time investment... 80% attititude = the casual gamer invests less time, so the casual gamer "cares" less about the individual wins and losses each team takes. the hardcore player is always assumed to be playing to win. so the casual gamer is always going to be perceived as less polished or adept, even though individually most casual gamers probably can carry their weight to a degree. hardcore players recognize they will do better in terms of enjoyment of the game and rewards in game by playing with likeminded players. casuals do not share this benefit, hence hardcore players will always carry the label of "cheater, stat padder, glitcher, zerg," etc. because of their ability to "manipulate" the stats thru teamwork. teamwork is not the same thing to all people. a group of morons flipping and repairing a damaged jeep for points is not a team. that's just a group of morons.
but the hardcore folks also carry the label "camper". when you go up to take an objective against a squad of 4 hc players, and they successfully continue to defend the objective you intend to take, and you can't, even as a group of 4 casual gamers who are using mics, you simply cannot move the hc players out of the area, then you call them campers. a successfully defended objective will always be perceived as a "camped" objective because the casual gamer is encountering facefirst the difference in time invested in the game between the 2 groups and the only perceived flaw in the game is how the casual views the hc players are playing it. camping IS defense.
a casual gamer on the top of a cliff with a sniper rifle is not helping you. you won't see a hardcore gamer far away from anything, with or without a sniper rifle. a casual gamer spawn camps because they have to, a hardcore gamer sets up an "alamo" because they can. casual gamers tend to not like mics, most hc gamers are "mic mandatory". casual gamers bunny hop at the first sign of incoming fire. hc players tend to walk toward their target. casual gamers tend to use most of their bullets in the first burst. hc gamers tend to fire in bursts of 3. casual gamers jump and drive off with support vehicles while they are in use. casual gamers who see you arming a panel, don't cover you, they try to arm the panel or race off. casual gamers spawn/stand near you and fire unsurpressed weapons, giving your position away. casual gamers face the same direction when taking an objective/completing a task. casual gamers run in a single line. casual gamers don't know what you mean by "North".
stuff like that.
Peace B |
TiMeSpLiT--TeR
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
326
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 14:33:00 -
[33] - Quote
Casual is like smoking in occasions only. cas-+u-+alGÇé GÇé[kazh-oo-uhl] Show IPA adjective 1. happening by chance; fortuitous: a casual meeting. 2. without definite or serious intention; careless or offhand; passing: a casual remark. 3. seeming or tending to be indifferent to what is happening; apathetic; unconcerned: a casual, nonchalant air. 4. appropriate for wear or use on informal occasions; not dressy: casual clothes; casual wear. 5. irregular; occasional: a casual visitor.
Hardcore is like committed. hard-coreGÇé GÇé[hahrd-kawr, -kohr] Show IPA adjective 1. unswervingly committed; uncompromising; dedicated: a hard-core segregationist. 2. pruriently explicit; graphically depicted: hard-core pornography. Compare soft-core. 3. being so without apparent change or remedy; chronic: hard-core inflation; hard-core unemployment. |
Kovinis Sparagas
Final Fortress Happy Tree Fiends
58
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 14:54:00 -
[34] - Quote
In Dust, I don't think hours can measure you hardcorenes (if I spelled right)
Casual: plays in NPC Corporation with starter gear in High sec. He plays alone just for fun.
HardCore: plays in player driven Corp with expensive gear on nullsec, and has a lot of others things to do besides shooting, like manufacturing, making ISK deals on market, and espionage. He plays with team for money and territory. |
Jax GG
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 15:26:00 -
[35] - Quote
Flagratus wrote:Interesting question. I play 5 to 6 hours a day, between work, wife, beer, eating, beer. I'd consider myself casual, I never hit the SP Cap.
Your Wife allows that much........beer?
you lucky Sod! |
Tebil Gurn
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
40
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 15:48:00 -
[36] - Quote
Here's my opinion. It's all about the mindset.
Casual: Play to have fun. If it's not fun anymore, stop playing. Winning is nice, personal/corp stats are nice, but not the primary focus of the casual player. Most people in almost every game fall into this category.
Hardcore: Win at all costs. Win for personal stats, win for corp stats, win every metric you can think of. A side effect of this is that they're typically more driven to play more so that's what happens. You can still be hardcore and only play 5 hours/week, it's all in how you play and where your focus is when you do play.
|
Tbone322
D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION
124
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 16:41:00 -
[37] - Quote
Longshot Ravenwood wrote:Cloud Mountain wrote:Casual: you play dust
Hardcore: dust plays you Pretty much. Casual: "Weekend Warrior" - 8 to 24 hour a week gamer (typically on their weekend, when they don't have anything better to do). Casual: "The Hobbyist" - 4 to 12 hour a week gamer. Casual: "The Occasional" - ??? hours a week (Dust 514? Yeah I'm in that beta. No, I haven't played any matches yet this week.) Hardcore: "The College Student" - 20 to 30 hour a week gamer (whenver they can fit it in and they don't have anything better to do) Hardcore: "The Professional" - 40 hours a week gamer. Hardcore: "The No Lifer" - 80 hours a week gamer
Good list, I fall into the weekend warrior.
I think mindset has to be in conjunction with time spent playing though. When I'm playing, I'm all about the win. Also Dust is the only game I'm playing right now. I don't have a ton of time to play so when I find a game that I like I devote all my gaming time to it.
I think I have the hardcore mindset but I don't have the time available to be considered hard core. Does that make me casual? |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 17:10:00 -
[38] - Quote
The problem with the term is that it is used to measure multiple things at once:
Hours Dedication to winning Love of depth and complexity Variety of games played Etc.
Everyone defines it differently and therefore will never agree.
What you need is to use a different word to denote which of these concepts you are referring to. |
Cpl Quartz
127
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 17:15:00 -
[39] - Quote
casual - dust 514
hardcore - tribes, tribes 2, quake
i mean no disrespect to dust or the audience it caters to.
broken down hardcore fps to me is something you have to practice at to be good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UdkwUVZKoY&list=FLd6cp6KPtExzpJwUHq-KhxA&index=26&feature=plpp_video
is that eve at the start? |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 19:39:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tebil Gurn wrote:Here's my opinion. It's all about the mindset.
Casual: Play to have fun. If it's not fun anymore, stop playing. Winning is nice, personal/corp stats are nice, but not the primary focus of the casual player. Most people in almost every game fall into this category.
Hardcore: Win at all costs. Win for personal stats, win for corp stats, win every metric you can think of. A side effect of this is that they're typically more driven to play more so that's what happens. You can still be hardcore and only play 5 hours/week, it's all in how you play and where your focus is when you do play.
I agree that generally it's more of a question of mindset, but since it's been raised as a balance concern for Dust I'm trying to keep focused on factors CCP could actually balance around which requires something more tangible than a mindset.
Hence the hours per week, there was a pretty good breakdown posted above, I'm really interested now in expanding the scope of this thread to include what average time it seems CCP is balancing for and what average time testers feel would be optimal for a rewarding play experience (I feel both are worth mentioning regardless of whether or not they coincide).
Cheers, Cross |
|
Lavirac JR
DUST University Ivy League
129
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 20:05:00 -
[41] - Quote
Hardcore involves midgets and amputees?
(Sorry to midgets and amputees everywhere, you deserve good soft loving like the rest of us...) |
Vane Arcadia
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
115
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 20:48:00 -
[42] - Quote
Zekain Kade wrote:Casual: A player that does not care about about winning or losing, he is just there to have a good time.
Competitive/ hardcore player: A player who wants to win at all costs.
Nah - I am casual but when I play I still like to compete and I still hate loosing.
In my younger mmo days I was certainly hardcore - I was logged into my game 24/7 and was active 16-18 hours, and that included at work... (which is bad btw). I would camp for up to 24 hours for a boss spawn. I kept this up for three years in one game - ******* Korean grinder stole my life. Following that I played Eve and the SWG to the same extent.
I think I have balance now and I play 3-4 hours a day, more on weekends. |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
810
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 21:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
D3aTH D3alER54 wrote:Baal Roo wrote:I would personally put the divider somewhere around the 5-7 hours a week mark. I play around 4 or 5 hours a week and would consider myself right close to the edge of being a "hardcore" player. Ok, let me get ready for this, it's going to be a big one! LOLLL!!!!!!! 5-7hrs a week and you consider yourself a HC player!?!? I play that nearly every 2days and even i don't consider myself "HC", and people think i'm the troll....................
Casual<>Hardcore<>No Lifer
I think you have an extremely unrealistic idea of what the average casual gamer invests in gaming.
To me, a casual player is the guy who plays a few hours of games a week. Maybe Saturday afternoon he flips on his PS3 and kills an hour or two casually burning some time on whatever game he feels like messing around on.
A "hardcore" gamer, is someone who invests free time to try and achieve specific results in specific games. For a hardcore gamer, the gaming is an actual hobby rather than simply a time waster. A hardcore gamer is usually actively playing multiple games. So even if they are spending 3 hours or more every night gaming, it's unlikely they're gonna rack up all of that time on a single game.
I personally probably spend 10-20 hours per week gaming. Ask any casual or non-gamer if that's "hardcore" and I'd wager they will answer in the affirmative.
What YOU are, is closer to a "no lifer", which is basically someone who devotes as much time to a single game as many people devote to an actual job. 20+ hours a week, every week, on a single game is well beyond your run of the mill hardcore gamer, especially assuming you don't just play Dust 514. |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
810
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 21:25:00 -
[44] - Quote
Vane Arcadia wrote:Zekain Kade wrote:Casual: A player that does not care about about winning or losing, he is just there to have a good time.
Competitive/ hardcore player: A player who wants to win at all costs. Nah - I am casual but when I play I still like to compete and I still hate loosing. In my younger mmo days I was certainly hardcore - I was logged into my game 24/7 and was active 16-18 hours, and that included at work... (which is bad btw). I would camp for up to 24 hours for a boss spawn. I kept this up for three years in one game - ******* Korean grinder stole my life. Following that I played Eve and the SWG to the same extent. I think I have balance now and I play 3-4 hours a day, more on weekends.
3-4 hours a day isn't hardcore?
So, if a guy told you he played softball EVERYDAY from 5pm until dusk, you wouldn't think he was a hardcore softball player?
How about a guy that gets up and works out at the gym every day from 4 am to 8 am? He's not "hardcore" into working out?
You guys are so funny. |
Cpl Quartz
127
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 21:26:00 -
[45] - Quote
release the next build move us to TQ. i've decided if it's not hardcore i'm done with it.
dust a hardcore fps LOL you still catering to the p u s s y market. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 21:54:00 -
[46] - Quote
To move this back on topic, let's boil it down.
For game balance what is the proper number of hours per week for Dust 514 to balance around? With the intent of balance being; A) Providing a rewarding play experience for a diverse group of playstyles B) Not having "casual" gamers be totally outpaced to the point of losing a reason for playing.
Note: SP Cap based on hours played is only one of the factors intended to handle balance between "hardcore and casual" according to CCP. The other two are scaling suit bonuses (in game now AFAIK) and enhanced matchmaking (still a work in progress currently). So make your assessments accordingly.
Cheers, Cross |
Cpl Quartz
127
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 22:03:00 -
[47] - Quote
enhanced matchmaking my arse, will it scan and read every players skills and possible permutations for every possible possition that player might play and pit them against an equal and opposite team? NO you **** off then dont try. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 22:15:00 -
[48] - Quote
Cpl Quartz wrote:enhanced matchmaking my arse, will it scan and read every players skills and possible permutations for every possible possition that player might play and pit them against an equal and opposite team? NO you **** off then dont try.
To my knowledge CCP has released no details regarding the mechanics of how this system will function. As such I'm avoiding assumptions as much as possible, but it seems like at minimum it would require an assessment of total skill points earned, and likely W/L ratio as well.
To reiterate however, there are no details released on this system. A system is indeed planned however and as such should not simply be ignored. Pretending an aspect of the game does not/will never exist only leads to bad balance feedback and less useful beta testing.
Cross
ps ~ even an advanced system really shouldn't scan every possible permutation of skill build, making sure players have generally the same level of development to work with is great, trying to hand hold them into not needing to learn anything about the game/not being able to make any mistakes? That's just bad game design as far as I can see. |
Flagratus
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
69
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 22:22:00 -
[49] - Quote
Jax GG wrote:Flagratus wrote:Interesting question. I play 5 to 6 hours a day, between work, wife, beer, eating, beer. I'd consider myself casual, I never hit the SP Cap. Your Wife allows that much........beer? you lucky Sod!
I see what you did there.
My wife is a........beer drinker too.
|
Cpl Quartz
127
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 22:41:00 -
[50] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Cpl Quartz wrote:enhanced matchmaking my arse, will it scan and read every players skills and possible permutations for every possible possition that player might play and pit them against an equal and opposite team? NO you **** off then dont try. To my knowledge CCP has released no details regarding the mechanics of how this system will function. As such I'm avoiding assumptions as much as possible, but it seems like at minimum it would require an assessment of total skill points earned, and likely W/L ratio as well. To reiterate however, there are no details released on this system.A system is indeed planned however and as such should not simply be ignored. Pretending an aspect of the game does not/will never exist only leads to bad balance feedback and less useful beta testing. Cross ps ~ even an advanced system really shouldn't scan every possible permutation of skill build, making sure players have generally the same level of development to work with is great, trying to hand hold them into not needing to learn anything about the game/not being able to make any mistakes? That's just bad game design as far as I can see.
tell that to me when there 2 fully skilled fully kitted tanks on the other team and zero av on mine GG CCP. if your going to make such an unique game follow it through ffs.
ccp have so far used the packaged respawn mechanics, the ones where epic take the **** out of developers that buy the engine/kit by spawning people in the opposite base, at least till they work it out. my next logical guess is that they use the crap matchmaking too. |
|
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 23:06:00 -
[51] - Quote
Ok, first off please try to stay on topic as your current posts really aren't addressing the purpose of the thread.
Cpl Quartz wrote:
tell that to me when there 2 fully skilled fully kitted tanks on the other team and zero av on mine GG CCP. if your going to make such an unique game follow it through ffs.
I can do that, I see no problem here (and yes I've been in that situation).
Cpl Quartz wrote: ccp have so far used the packaged respawn mechanics, the ones where epic take the **** out of developers that buy the engine/kit by spawning people in the opposite base, at least till they work it out. my next logical guess is that they use the crap matchmaking too.
Check the point I've added bold too. See when I mentioned the matchmaking as something to keep in mind for contexts sake I specifically mention that it was not yes implemented so any comments regarding how things are functioning at present are utterly irreverent to the discussion at hand.
Quote:and enhanced matchmaking (still a work in progress currently).
If you have critiques of the game or CCP then by all means voice them, but please confine your posts in this thread to the subject of this thread. To wit,
Quote:For game balance what is the proper number of hours per week for Dust 514 to balance around? With the intent of balance being; A) Providing a rewarding play experience for a diverse group of playstyles B) Not having "casual" gamers be totally outpaced to the point of losing a reason for playing.
|
Vane Arcadia
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
115
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 23:06:00 -
[52] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:Vane Arcadia wrote:Zekain Kade wrote:Casual: A player that does not care about about winning or losing, he is just there to have a good time.
Competitive/ hardcore player: A player who wants to win at all costs. Nah - I am casual but when I play I still like to compete and I still hate loosing. In my younger mmo days I was certainly hardcore - I was logged into my game 24/7 and was active 16-18 hours, and that included at work... (which is bad btw). I would camp for up to 24 hours for a boss spawn. I kept this up for three years in one game - ******* Korean grinder stole my life. Following that I played Eve and the SWG to the same extent. I think I have balance now and I play 3-4 hours a day, more on weekends. 3-4 hours a day isn't hardcore? So, if a guy told you he played softball EVERYDAY from 5pm until dusk, you wouldn't think he was a hardcore softball player? How about a guy that gets up and works out at the gym every day from 4 am to 8 am? He's not "hardcore" into working out? You guys are so funny.
I guess if I hadn't got the experience of a true no lifer (of which I am less than proud) I might have thought it was hardcore - but no 3-4 hours isn't hardcore. After work if I wasn't gaming I would probably just watch TV for 3-4 hours and I assume you wouldn't consider that hardcore ?
Gaming is not exactly physical so I do not think you can equate it to going to the gym.
|
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1058
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 23:08:00 -
[53] - Quote
7 hours a week is definitely casual. Not sure where to draw the line between casual, semi-casual, and hardcore though |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
810
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 23:44:00 -
[54] - Quote
Vane Arcadia wrote:Baal Roo wrote:Vane Arcadia wrote:Zekain Kade wrote:Casual: A player that does not care about about winning or losing, he is just there to have a good time.
Competitive/ hardcore player: A player who wants to win at all costs. Nah - I am casual but when I play I still like to compete and I still hate loosing. In my younger mmo days I was certainly hardcore - I was logged into my game 24/7 and was active 16-18 hours, and that included at work... (which is bad btw). I would camp for up to 24 hours for a boss spawn. I kept this up for three years in one game - ******* Korean grinder stole my life. Following that I played Eve and the SWG to the same extent. I think I have balance now and I play 3-4 hours a day, more on weekends. 3-4 hours a day isn't hardcore? So, if a guy told you he played softball EVERYDAY from 5pm until dusk, you wouldn't think he was a hardcore softball player? How about a guy that gets up and works out at the gym every day from 4 am to 8 am? He's not "hardcore" into working out? You guys are so funny. I guess if I hadn't got the experience of a true no lifer (of which I am less than proud) I might have thought it was hardcore - but no 3-4 hours isn't hardcore. After work if I wasn't gaming I would probably just watch TV for 3-4 hours and I assume you wouldn't consider that hardcore ? Gaming is not exactly physical so I do not think you can equate it to going to the gym.
I would absolutely consider 4 hours of TV nightly "hardcore".
As far as the physical argument, how about someone who played solitaire for 4 hours every night? I'd say that's a pretty hardcore solitaire player, no? |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 23:56:00 -
[55] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:7 hours a week is definitely casual. Not sure where to draw the line between casual, semi-casual, and hardcore though
Thanks for the feedback, this is just the sort of feedback I'm hoping to gather in this thread.
Cheers, Cross |
Longshot Ravenwood
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
680
|
Posted - 2012.10.17 01:34:00 -
[56] - Quote
Tbone322 wrote:Longshot Ravenwood wrote:Cloud Mountain wrote:Casual: you play dust
Hardcore: dust plays you Pretty much. Casual: "Weekend Warrior" - 8 to 24 hour a week gamer (typically on their weekend, when they don't have anything better to do). Casual: "The Hobbyist" - 4 to 12 hour a week gamer. Casual: "The Occasional" - ??? hours a week (Dust 514? Yeah I'm in that beta. No, I haven't played any matches yet this week.) Hardcore: "The College Student" - 20 to 30 hour a week gamer (whenver they can fit it in and they don't have anything better to do) Hardcore: "The Professional" - 40 hours a week gamer. Hardcore: "The No Lifer" - 80 hours a week gamer Good list, I fall into the weekend warrior. I think mindset has to be in conjunction with time spent playing though. When I'm playing, I'm all about the win. Also Dust is the only game I'm playing right now. I don't have a ton of time to play so when I find a game that I like I devote all my gaming time to it. I think I have the hardcore mindset but I don't have the time available to be considered hard core. Does that make me casual? You're on the hardcore end of the casual. Mindset definitely plays in and it's what usually sets a Weekend Warrior apart from a Hobbyist. At the same time there are "hardcore" gamers who clearly take a casual stance on gaming. I like to call them "friends" because you only get in arguments over important things and there's limited eye poking and name calling. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2012.10.17 02:14:00 -
[57] - Quote
I would steer away from absolute numbers and suggest that a percentage of free time would be a more accurate measure of gameplay dedication.
If a person has a job, family and other obligations he may have only a few free hours a week. If he devotes all of those to a game I would argue he is "Hardcore".
That's why the term "Hardcore" is next to useless for this purpose.
I also believe that the casual/hardcore debate is a red herring.
As as been pointed out multiple times, once you max out a given role's skills you are the equal of any other player in that role regardless of total SP.
It's really all about limiting how soon anyone can top out every skill. CCP doesn't want that to happen for seven years, so it becomes a simple calculation. Subtract seven years of passive SP gain from the total SP count of all skills projected to be in place at that time and divide by (52 x7) and you arrive at your weekly cap.
They have you arguing amongst yourselves with the casual vs hardcore distraction.
Edited my arithmetic |
Longshot Ravenwood
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
680
|
Posted - 2012.10.17 02:21:00 -
[58] - Quote
Skihids wrote:I would steer away from absolute numbers and suggest that a percentage of free time would be a more accurate measure of gameplay dedication.
If a person has a job, family and other obligations he may have only a few free hours a week. If he devotes all of those to a game I would argue he is "Hardcore".
That's why the term "Hardcore" is next to useless for this purpose.
I also believe that the casual/hardcore debate is a red herring.
As as been pointed out multiple times, once you max out a given role's skills you are the equal of any other player in that role regardless of total SP.
It's really all about limiting how soon anyone can top out every skill. CCP doesn't want that to happen for seven years, so it becomes a simple calculation. Subtract seven years of passive SP gain from the total SP count of all skills projected to be in place at that time and divide by (52 x7) and you arrive at your weekly cap.
They have you arguing amongst yourselves with the casual vs hardcore distraction.
Edited my arithmetic Do you have a second to grab us skill details from the market for our debate then? Total cost of maxing a x1 skill & a total of how many skills are x1, x2, etc... would give me something to do while I'm not working at work. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
164
|
Posted - 2012.10.17 02:57:00 -
[59] - Quote
Thanks to BASSMEANT for this list.
1. a casual gamer on the top of a cliff with a sniper rifle is not helping you.
I occasionally pick up the sniper rifle but only if I think I can find and frag the guys sniping me 3+ times that match. Otherwise, I leav sniping to the pros.
2. you won't see a hardcore gamer far away from anything, with or without a sniper rifle.
Depends on my load out. Specing AV I prefer some distance, I'm not good at CQcbt though those of you who may have lost your face to my assault scrambler might tell me otherwise.
3. a casual gamer spawn camps because they have to, a hardcore gamer sets up an "alamo" because they can.
I don't spawn camp, but I also don't go setting up Alamos. Must be an ambush thing.
4. casual gamers tend to not like mics, most hc gamers are "mic mandatory".
I love mics, but only when it's not going to disturb the rest of my family. One of the reasons I play late night -8GMT.
5. casual gamers bunny hop at the first sign of incoming fire. hc players tend to walk toward their target.
Bunny hopping's useless if you go for shoulder level firing. Besides, my heavy suit can't hop worth crap.
6. casual gamers tend to use most of their bullets in the first burst. hc gamers tend to fire in bursts of 3.
Ammunition conservation is important. I know that.
7. casual gamers jump and drive off with support vehicles while they are in use.
I don't drive. Hate the mechanic. Though I have jumped up on a turret on occasion.
8. casual gamers who see you arming a panel, don't cover you, they try to arm the panel or race off.
Kind of split here. I've covered someone only to have them gripe that I didn't speed up the hack by helping them and I've been griped at for not covering when killed during a tandem hack. People are confusing.
9. casual gamers spawn/stand near you and fire unsuppressed weapons, giving your position away.
Even many experienced players end up doing this on occasion.
10. casual gamers face the same direction when taking an objective/completing a task.
Meh... Once again, even experienced players do this on occasion.
11. casual gamers run in a single line.
If you mean straight line... Well when it's the fastest way to get from one piece of cover to the next and the distance is short... I don't see a problem with it.
12. casual gamers don't know what you mean by "North".
I know the cardinal directions, I just wish the "N" was easier to see on the minimap.
With that listing done, as far as time goes... I might play 10 to 15 hours a week, but I don't spam right into another battle just as I come out of one that's ended. I also restock my fits if needed, chat a bit in local/corp, etc.
When it all comes out in the wash, in some aspects I'm casual, in others I'm hardcore. I consider myself casual because I'm there to have fun, but I'm also there to try to inflict as much damage as I can while covering my squad's/team's butt the best I can. There's a lot more to consider than the above points. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2012.10.17 03:16:00 -
[60] - Quote
Longshot Ravenwood wrote:Skihids wrote:I would steer away from absolute numbers and suggest that a percentage of free time would be a more accurate measure of gameplay dedication.
If a person has a job, family and other obligations he may have only a few free hours a week. If he devotes all of those to a game I would argue he is "Hardcore".
That's why the term "Hardcore" is next to useless for this purpose.
I also believe that the casual/hardcore debate is a red herring.
As as been pointed out multiple times, once you max out a given role's skills you are the equal of any other player in that role regardless of total SP.
It's really all about limiting how soon anyone can top out every skill. CCP doesn't want that to happen for seven years, so it becomes a simple calculation. Subtract seven years of passive SP gain from the total SP count of all skills projected to be in place at that time and divide by (52 x7) and you arrive at your weekly cap.
They have you arguing amongst yourselves with the casual vs hardcore distraction.
Edited my arithmetic Do you have a second to grab us skill details from the market for our debate then? Total cost of maxing a x1 skill & a total of how many skills are x1, x2, etc... would give me something to do while I'm not working at work.
Can't get to that right now, but it would be an interesting exercise. Keep in mind that we probably don't have anywhere near the number of skills that will exist in seven years so the number would come out low if not negative.
You could reverse that using the existing cap to calculate the projected skill tree cost. |
|
Logi Bro
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
836
|
Posted - 2012.10.17 03:19:00 -
[61] - Quote
Casual- Playing to play, time spent playing is irrelevant. Hardcore- Playing to win, spends time off-game in activities that pertain to the game. (like these forums)
Can I haz cookie? |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
132
|
Posted - 2012.10.17 05:50:00 -
[62] - Quote
Casual player plays for fun. Hardcore players play to match a certain performance bar - and of course you can't count as hardcore unless you do stand out in some way with performance above average. It can be KDR or corp leadership or something else but you gotta stand out to be considered hardcore. In other words, gotta be an A player. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
164
|
Posted - 2012.10.17 07:19:00 -
[63] - Quote
Well if they really wanted to give no skilling advantage to the person who plays all the time as compared to the person who plays occasionally, they could always run Dust with the same time based skill que leveling as is used in Eve. Then the only thing frequent players would have an advantage in over the occasional players would be the greater amount of ISK and loadout stock they would have. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.17 07:20:00 -
[64] - Quote
Skihids wrote:Longshot Ravenwood wrote:Skihids wrote:I would steer away from absolute numbers and suggest that a percentage of free time would be a more accurate measure of gameplay dedication.
If a person has a job, family and other obligations he may have only a few free hours a week. If he devotes all of those to a game I would argue he is "Hardcore".
That's why the term "Hardcore" is next to useless for this purpose.
I also believe that the casual/hardcore debate is a red herring.
As as been pointed out multiple times, once you max out a given role's skills you are the equal of any other player in that role regardless of total SP.
It's really all about limiting how soon anyone can top out every skill. CCP doesn't want that to happen for seven years, so it becomes a simple calculation. Subtract seven years of passive SP gain from the total SP count of all skills projected to be in place at that time and divide by (52 x7) and you arrive at your weekly cap.
They have you arguing amongst yourselves with the casual vs hardcore distraction.
Edited my arithmetic Do you have a second to grab us skill details from the market for our debate then? Total cost of maxing a x1 skill & a total of how many skills are x1, x2, etc... would give me something to do while I'm not working at work. Can't get to that right now, but it would be an interesting exercise. Keep in mind that we probably don't have anywhere near the number of skills that will exist in seven years so the number would come out low if not negative. You could reverse that using the existing cap to calculate the projected skill tree cost.
That would be an interesting exercise indeed. And if as postulated it's a question of containing the arc on maximum skill progression then CCP really needs to do something besides just place a hard cap because that's really not a very positive overall gaming feature. Something to maintain a sense of momentum and progression in the face of a reduced skill gain (I don't know how functional an idea it would be but adding more gear diversity and Meta thereby adding another layer of requirement skills/train time while still allowing for more active in game progression would work but there may be better solutions as well).
In any event an interesting idea to chew on, thanks for the posts.
Cheers, Cross
|
D3aTH D3alER54
The Southern Legion
130
|
Posted - 2012.10.17 09:31:00 -
[65] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:D3aTH D3alER54 wrote:Baal Roo wrote:I would personally put the divider somewhere around the 5-7 hours a week mark. I play around 4 or 5 hours a week and would consider myself right close to the edge of being a "hardcore" player. Ok, let me get ready for this, it's going to be a big one! LOLLL!!!!!!! 5-7hrs a week and you consider yourself a HC player!?!? I play that nearly every 2days and even i don't consider myself "HC", and people think i'm the troll.................... Casual<>Hardcore<>No Lifer I think you have an extremely unrealistic idea of what the average casual gamer invests in gaming. To me, a casual player is the guy who plays a few hours of games a week. Maybe Saturday afternoon he flips on his PS3 and kills an hour or two casually burning some time on whatever game he feels like messing around on. A "hardcore" gamer, is someone who invests free time to try and achieve specific results in specific games. For a hardcore gamer, the gaming is an actual hobby rather than simply a time waster. A hardcore gamer is usually actively playing multiple games. So even if they are spending 3 hours or more every night gaming, it's unlikely they're gonna rack up all of that time on a single game. I personally probably spend 10-20 hours per week gaming. Ask any casual or non-gamer if that's "hardcore" and I'd wager they will answer in the affirmative. What YOU are, is closer to a "no lifer", which is basically someone who devotes as much time to a single game as many people devote to an actual job. 20+ hours a week, every week, on a single game is well beyond your run of the mill hardcore gamer, especially assuming you don't just play Dust 514. Yeah, i'm probably closer to 30hrs, (world put more in if i can LOL) But i guess that's the line for HC is 10-20hr a week now.. and if that's the case it really comes down to persistence. |
Bishop Sunrunner
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 11:58:00 -
[66] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Ok, so I'm aware of what the terms mean generally, but when we speak of Dust 514 specifically what defines a "casual" player? Where's the line which pushes someone into "hardcore" territory? I'm interested in player base sentiments on this (yes that means you unless you can't resist trolling ). I'd also love to hear how CCP is defining this. The current Skill Point system is in part presented as a balance for Casual players so they are not outstripped by Hardcore players, but who's who? If you play 7 hours of Dust in a week (counting all time from game client boot up, till game client shutdown as "play time" for this example) does that make you a "casual" or a "hardcore" player? (also please include a "why" here, detailed feedback > vague/general proclamations)
Hardcore -> if you play not only one match a day - and if you know how to play in a squad. Spend more time on the marketplace as in fight. Write the progress down which skill to lvl up next.
Casual -> Cannon fodder! |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 00:03:00 -
[67] - Quote
Interested in hearing from more people :) |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 18:39:00 -
[68] - Quote
I'm going to rephrase this question, see the following.
Which in game mechanics and/or metrics do you think CCP should use to define "Casual" and "Hardcore" such that the most rewarding and long lasting play experience in Dust 514 is promoted?
The key to this is finding traceable elements within the game that can be used by CCP to identify "Casual" and "Hardcore".
Post back with your sense of what they should be and why. Please be detailed.
Cheers, Cross |
BASSMEANT
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
109
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 20:18:00 -
[69] - Quote
it's not about time played.
that has nothing to do with it.
i've met hardcore gamers who have more talent then thousands of casuals all ducttaped together. and the casuals play more.
naw man, it aint about time or kd or any of that:
it's about team.
a hardcore player plays to win because the TEAM win is more important. and that goes for every second of the match.
you will never hear a hardcore player, when asked to go arm a panel, exclaim "that's not my job"
only a casual would pop up with that kinda attitude. or even worse... the useless micless bastard. totally about self. screw your housemates. log off then and let a mic player get in. sticking around with no mic = casual anchor. that slot coulda been used by someone with a mic. a hardcore player would know that. a casual gamer would make excuses "i have as much right... blah blahblah"
casual gamers are playing to have fun. hardcore gamers are playing to win. every time.
Peace B |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 20:54:00 -
[70] - Quote
Casual gamer outside of the context of a specific game is someone who doesn't play games much, and usually someone who plays more casual games - ones that hardcore gamers think of as "EZMode" games. Within THAT context, total time spent playing during a week isn't necessarily relevant, but games are typically played in short bursts - one level at a time, or one playthrough in a short or simplistic game. Often this will be as short as 5 - 15 minutes, but it can easily extend to an hour (or three) depending on the game. Casual gamers can also be defined based on the difficulty levels they play single player games on - Easy or Medium is the "Casual" option in many games - again, depending on the specific game in question.
Hardcore gamers, by this definition, are the ones who play more "hardcore" games - things that test twitch reactions and reflexes as well as requiring strategic thought. Many hardcore gamers are willing to drop one or the other of those two requirements - there are "hardcore" games which are all about reaction times, and hardcore strategy games where someone with more patience can beat an otherwise "better" player. Also, they're often found playing several missions in a row in a game - or a series of games over the course of a couple of hours, rather than just sitting down for short gaming sessions. If a person has the right mindset, a couple of 2 hour sessions over a weekend could qualify as "hardcore" by this definition. Also, hardcore single player gamers, unlike casuals, will often replay a single level multiple times in a row, just to try and achieve some specific requirement - either for an in-game reward (like a system/network-based Trophy/Achievement) or simply to prove to themselves that they can do so.
With those definitions in mind, I'll bring that into the context of DUST.
When you sit down to play, do you:
a) Sit down, actively playing through a series of battles, quickly moving from the end of one into the start of another? b) Agonise over fittings or SP allocation for hours at a time without even entering a single battle? c) Sit down, play a match or two, maybe change channel to watch TV if you hear something good is on, take a food break between matches without quitting, stop for snacks between battles, then check your SP and/or fittings in under 20 minutes near the end of your session - or put it off for the beginning of your next round of DUST time?
If you're able to spend long periods looking at stats and thinking about personal experiences with different types of gear, carefully planning out strategies then building Dropsuits and Vehicles around those tactics, or conversely slapping together whatever fits on a suit then crefully planning devious ways to make the seemingly random loadout provide some kind of synergistic awesomeness you can exploit, then you're hardcore into the design/assembly side of DUST, even if you aren't hardcore into the shooting elements themselves.
If you slap together whatever you can fit based around one core element, then rush into battle without really worrying beyond the basics, obviously, not so concerned with the assembly side of things. But a player like that might still push themselves to really do well on the battlefield - working with other players, out-twitching people, pulling off intricate strategies you come up with in the heat of battle...
There are, in the current state of the beta, those two core elements to the game. It's possible to be "hardcore" in one element and "casual" in the other.
In the full game, part of the assembly/customisation aspect of the game will also be a separate game in its own right - playing the market in a financial/resource management metagame. You'll probably find players, like you do in EVE, looking at valuable trade routes, buying or harvesting gear somewhere they can get it cheap, then delivering it somewhere else to sell for a profit.
In EVE, and on these forums (although to a VASTLY lesser degree here than in EVE), there's also a HUGE political metagame which will be carrying over into DUST at some point in the future. Corporations will be fighting one another, making deals and alliances, non-aggression pacts and declarations of war, running mercenary work for one another, spying on each other - either for themselves or someone else.
It's possible for SOME of these elements to be completely - or at least mostly - bypassed/ignored by many players. It's also possible for players to be into any of them on a casual or hardcore level. |
|
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 20:58:00 -
[71] - Quote
Sorry... that was longer than intended... TL;DR version incoming.
DUST, even now, has lots of elements which players can be hardcore into SOME of while being casual players in other parts of the game. By release, that will have expanded in several ways, so until then, and until we have more information than just an amount of times spent playing each week, it'll be impossible to answer whether you're a hardcore player, casual player or somewhere in between. |
Super Cargo
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
428
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 21:16:00 -
[72] - Quote
Casual: CoD style. Easy game mechanics, easy shooting mechanics, easy rewards.
Hardcore: Deeper game mechanics, difficult shooting mechanics (aka more "realistic"), your reward is winning. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 21:26:00 -
[73] - Quote
Continue to find the responses interesting and thanks to all who have replied.
I would like to reiterate however that within context this question is about Dust 514 (as opposed to generally) and about what traceable in game metrics you'd consider valid and relevant to the definition of "casual" and "hardcore". Also at what rates you think those metrics would be best applied for a rewarding/balanced game play experience.
Cheers, Cross |
Death On Contact
Doomheim
56
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 00:44:00 -
[74] - Quote
As an 05 Eve player I have experienced all types and here's my .02 ...
Casual Player - Logs on whenever real life permits. Usually a couple of hours a day/night and varies on days off from work. Though competitive, plays solely for fun. Doesn't get emotional and could care less about the politics and "bullcrap" of it all. If he/she joins a corp its usually to have people to play with and or access to better space, etc. Will either be an older person with a real life, a student heavy into their studies, or an Eve vet who's seen it all, done it all, and smart enough to play the game on their own terms and still be very successful...
Hardcore Player - Logs on at every given opportunity. If doesn't have the time will make the time. The game will sometimes supersede real life depending on the importance of the situation. His/her stats are very important. Will use real money to buy lots of aurum, will look for every advantage possible. Uses words like "pro" and "leet". Winning and losing have an emotional effect, sometimes severe (rage). Is very much into the politics and the "who's who". Will either be a teenager, early twenties, or an older person with no life. Sometimes also called a "Dork". |
BASSMEANT
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
109
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 00:51:00 -
[75] - Quote
anyone who uses the word "leet" is a hardcore bag o douche.
anyone who uses the word "leet" to describe themselves?
wow... that's like an entire swimming pool fulla massengils right there, boy.
Peace B |
Zqev
2
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 02:25:00 -
[76] - Quote
Death On Contact wrote:As an 05 Eve player I have experienced all types and here's my .02 ...
Casual Player - Logs on whenever real life permits. Usually a couple of hours a day/night and varies on days off from work. Though competitive, plays solely for fun. Doesn't get emotional and could care less about the politics and "bullcrap" of it all. If he/she joins a corp its usually to have people to play with and or access to better space, etc. Will either be an older person with a real life, a student heavy into their studies, or an Eve vet who's seen it all, done it all, and smart enough to play the game on their own terms and still be very successful...
Hardcore Player - Logs on at every given opportunity. If doesn't have the time will make the time. The game will sometimes supersede real life depending on the importance of the situation. His/her stats are very important. Will use real money to buy lots of aurum, will look for every advantage possible. Uses words like "pro" and "leet". Winning and losing have an emotional effect, sometimes severe (rage). Is very much into the politics and the "who's who". Will either be a teenager, early twenties, or an older person with no life. Sometimes also called a "Dork".
LOL |
Roy Bombega
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 04:25:00 -
[77] - Quote
In my opinion, 'casuals' are players who are content with playing mainstream games (cod, tf2, lol, dota, etc). 'hardcore' players are people who look for more niche games, usually with a bit more complexity, or with more challenging gameplay, like quake or arma.
for the most part, 'casuals' will always be the majority.
also what is the point of this thread? |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 04:43:00 -
[78] - Quote
Thanks to everyone who's responded thus far :)
I'd like to reiterate that I'm seeking definitions for within Dust 514 and measured in traceable in game metrics.
Since CCP has stated that balance between "hardcore" & "casual" is a concern I am interested to see what the player base sees those terms to be within D514 in a tangible context which could actually be relevant to in game balance.
Cheers :) Cross |
Roy Bombega
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 05:08:00 -
[79] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Thanks to everyone who's responded thus far :)
I'd like to reiterate that I'm seeking definitions for within Dust 514 and measured in traceable in game metrics.
Since CCP has stated that balance between "hardcore" & "casual" is a concern I am interested to see what the player base sees those terms to be within D514 in a tangible context which could actually be relevant to in game balance.
Cheers :) Cross
this just isn't the kind of game for casual players. If i'm putting together a merc corp, i don't want some dude who only plays an hour a day, because clients aren't going to base their contracts around his very casual schedual. I want some smelly-ass basement dwellers who are going to be on at times when they're needed and can actually play worth a damn. If you want to play a game "just to have fun" this ain't for you, unless you plan on doing npc corp missions only.
not to **** on casual players, its just that EVE doesn't cater to casuals AT ALL, so why should dust? |
STYLIE77
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
60
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 10:14:00 -
[80] - Quote
Casual:
- Never leaves their NPC corp
- Plays less than 1 hour a weekday, less than 4 hours on the weekends
HARDCORE:
- Member of a player created corp
- Plays more than 1 hour a weekday, more than 4 hours on the weekends
Simple as that. |
|
Jack Boost
Zarena Family
194
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 10:54:00 -
[81] - Quote
Corp affiliation is irrelevant.
|
BASSMEANT
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
109
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 14:13:00 -
[82] - Quote
LOL
stylie is a casual. so is keq lol.
Peace B |
Reapz Krueger
BetaMax.
4
|
Posted - 2012.11.17 11:43:00 -
[83] - Quote
BASSMEANT are you dutch??? if so you should play with us im dutch too and another in our corp also is
cheers |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
315
|
Posted - 2012.11.17 13:02:00 -
[84] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Thanks to everyone who's responded thus far :)
I'd like to reiterate that I'm seeking definitions for within Dust 514 and measured in traceable in game metrics.
Since CCP has stated that balance between "hardcore" & "casual" is a concern I am interested to see what the player base sees those terms to be within D514 in a tangible context which could actually be relevant to in game balance.
Cheers :) Cross
I'm not convinced I support the binary division of the player base (casual/hard-core), but I'll have a bash anyway.
The simplest metric I can think of is to create content with different levels of "hardness", balancing rewards to the difficulty level. Hardcore players will be the ones who only play the hardest content. Casual players are the ones who are happy playing the easier content.
Right now the beta only has one level of content, with essentially a random hardness level because it depends on who you spawn against.
Expecting a game to be able to balance things so that casual and hardcore players can both be happy playing the same content is a bit unrealistic, imho.
What would "easier" content would look like?
For PvE (against drones, for example), difficulty is easy to assign. Do the drones have 100, 500 or 2000 points of armour?
For PvP it will be harder, but not impossible. Having battles with lower ISK/SP rewards and with certain modules & weapons banned would be a start. Matchmaking algorithms incorporating K/D ratios, etc. might also help. |
BASSMEANT
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
109
|
Posted - 2012.11.17 23:22:00 -
[85] - Quote
"Casual players are the ones who are happy playing the easier content."
uh....
"casual players are the ones who can't play the hardcore version"
hell they can't even play THIS version of a beta.
the easiest of em all.
then again, they couldn't play mag... or bf3... or bc2... or bc1.
oh, wait i see a pattern.
Peace B |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
315
|
Posted - 2012.11.17 23:56:00 -
[86] - Quote
BASSMEANT wrote:"Casual players are the ones who are happy playing the easier content."
uh....
"casual players are the ones who can't play the hardcore version"
hell they can't even play THIS version of a beta.
the easiest of em all.
then again, they couldn't play mag... or bf3... or bc2... or bc1.
oh, wait i see a pattern.
Peace B Tacking "peace" on the end of your post doesn't make it any more correct, or any less insulting
Anyway, this beta is in no way easy for casual players, because they are thrown into battle against the hardcore players. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 10:30:00 -
[87] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Thanks to everyone who's responded thus far :)
I'd like to reiterate that I'm seeking definitions for within Dust 514 and measured in traceable in game metrics.
Since CCP has stated that balance between "hardcore" & "casual" is a concern I am interested to see what the player base sees those terms to be within D514 in a tangible context which could actually be relevant to in game balance.
Cheers :) Cross I'm not convinced I support the binary division of the player base (casual/hard-core), but I'll have a bash anyway. The simplest metric I can think of is to create content with different levels of "hardness", balancing rewards to the difficulty level. Hardcore players will be the ones who only play the hardest content. Casual players are the ones who are happy playing the easier content. Right now the beta only has one level of content, with essentially a random hardness level because it depends on who you spawn against. Expecting a game to be able to balance things so that casual and hardcore players can both be happy playing the same content is a bit unrealistic, imho. What would "easier" content would look like? For PvE (against drones, for example), difficulty is easy to assign. Do the drones have 100, 500 or 2000 points of armour? For PvP it will be harder, but not impossible. Having battles with lower ISK/SP rewards and with certain modules & weapons banned would be a start. Matchmaking algorithms incorporating K/D ratios, etc. might also help.
I'm glad you brought this up. I am actually very opposed to the binary division of the player base but since CCP brought it up as part of their SP award balancing method I wanted to get community voices on the subject.
Another very good point you bring up is regarding the beta and "casual" v "hardcore" balance. The point being that player skill will still develop even while players are not awarded skill points so there's no functional way to make a game where choices have weight and actually keep a balance between those who have spent a lot of time playing/learning the game and those who have not. (speaking in generalities here)
I agree that high quality matchmaking combined with variant base content challenge is a preferable method attempting to enforce a certain bell curve on the player base.
Thanks for the response Cheers, Cross |
BASSMEANT
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
109
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 12:50:00 -
[88] - Quote
"because they are thrown into battle against the hardcore players"
well that's a first.
at least somebody finally admitted that hardcore players are better gamers then casuals.
and now you blame the game for that?
interesting.
Peace B |
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