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Umm....swarms vs dropships?

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DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1903	Posted - 2012.10.13 01:36:00 - [1] - Quote I'm just really curious as to who thought making swarms unable to hit dropships was a good idea. This coming from a former dropship pilot too, what exactly is the point of swarm launchers if they can't even hit dropships? I swear, I can run faster than swarm missiles. I know this is kind of delicate since dropships are fragile, but to literally not be able to hit them with swarm launchers just feels like a bug, and is insanely frustrating. Guess I'm sinking SP into heavies.
STB Vermaak Doe 558	Posted - 2012.10.13 01:46:00 - [2] - Quote I think that the base cpu/ pg of a dropship should be bumped up to near tank levels ( a lot less pg/cpu of a tank but more than currently are) and swarms should be a guaranteed hit
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2012.10.13 01:48:00 - [3] - Quote You can fix that after you give dropships some defense other than out running them
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 742	Posted - 2012.10.13 01:55:00 - [4] - Quote Give me more eHP and a ship that doesn't get flipped repeatedly by one Swarm hit and sure, make those babies faster, but til then, CCP don't you dare touch them. Right now, swarms are keeping most of us at bay, I've watched several pilots get downed in matches because of swarms but they decided not to try and run and instead tanked the damage, the rest that aren't that foolish are constantly running around the map and makes our job of picking people up and dropping them at places impossible, get to close to a building or the ground (to pick people up) and you run the risk of being flipped. Hell, I've landed once and been rolled onto my side.
Icy Beast 5	Posted - 2012.10.13 02:18:00 - [5] - Quote Forge.
D3aTH D3alER54 The Southern Legion 130	Posted - 2012.10.13 02:37:00 - [6] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: Give me more eHP and a ship that doesn't get flipped repeatedly by one Swarm hit and sure, make those babies faster, but til then, CCP don't you dare touch them. Right now, swarms are keeping most of us at bay, I've watched several pilots get downed in matches because of swarms but they decided not to try and run and instead tanked the damage, the rest that aren't that foolish are constantly running around the map and makes our job of picking people up and dropping them at places impossible, get to close to a building or the ground (to pick people up) and you run the risk of being flipped. Hell, I've landed once and been rolled onto my side. The only advantage drop ships have at the moment is that they can out run swarms, but they are still way to easily taken down by installations and forge guns.
Blunt Smkr Doomheim 62	Posted - 2012.10.13 03:30:00 - [7] - Quote yea i hate how swarm launchers are slower the the dropships it just doesnt make since why they would do it that way. but i think they should just give dropships flares or watever they are called an speed up the rockets. that way dropships can avoid a few rockets but if a whole squad is firing at them its going to be alot harder.
Zekain Kade BetaMax. 931	Posted - 2012.10.13 03:39:00 - [8] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I'm just really curious as to who thought making swarms unable to hit dropships was a good idea. This coming from a former dropship pilot too, what exactly is the point of swarm launchers if they can't even hit dropships? I swear, I can run faster than swarm missiles. I know this is kind of delicate since dropships are fragile, but to literally not be able to hit them with swarm launchers just feels like a bug, and is insanely frustrating. Guess I'm sinking SP into heavies. who's bright idea was it to give the turrets a auto lock on?
Rhadiem Algintal Core Gallente Federation 496	Posted - 2012.10.13 06:08:00 - [9] - Quote I seriously hope Dropships have a lot of work left to be done to them before release. Reports of them flipping over (!??) by being hit by swarm launchers, and generally being very weak for their sluggish manner shows me they're not ready for release. Considering they're designed to pick up and drop off troops, they need more tank. And with more tank, swarm launchers probably need some love so they can actually hit them when moving. Gunships I can see with less tank and the ability to evade and outrun launchers, because they're kinda like LAV's in that they should hit and run, not be hovering turrets. (CCP, please give us gunships)
Necrodermis GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 460	Posted - 2012.10.13 06:11:00 - [10] - Quote Rhadiem wrote: Gunships I can see with less tank and the ability to evade and outrun launchers, because they're kinda like LAV's in that they should hit and run, not be hovering turrets. (CCP, please give us gunships) i don't think there is supposed to be a raincloud of missiles. i would like to see turrets needing to be reloaded. not a endless stream of rockets pouring out of vehicles.

Rhadiem Algintal Core Gallente Federation 496	Posted - 2012.10.13 06:26:00 - [11] - Quote Necrodermis wrote: Rhadiem wrote: Gunships I can see with less tank and the ability to evade and outrun launchers, because they're kinda like LAV's in that they should hit and run, not be hovering turrets. (CCP, please give us gunships) i don't think there is supposed to be a raincloud of missiles. i would like to see turrets needing to be reloaded. not a endless stream of rockets pouring out of vehicles. Air superiority is always key for modern combat, and is something sorely missing in this build of Dust. That said, hit and run is by definition not a constant stream, just occasional showers before rapid departure. But, if the enemy fails to have anti-vehicle representation like many games in the last build (where people cried for days about tanks) then they're doomed to fail. If we have vehicles, we should have a full spread of them. Fortunately, this seems to be planned.. just might take longer than I'd like. Thankfully Dust isn't exclusively infantry.
Necrodermis GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 460	Posted - 2012.10.13 06:42:00 - [12] - Quote Rhadiem wrote: Air superiority is always key for modern combat, and is something sorely missing in this build of Dust. That said, hit and run is by definition not a constant stream, just occasional showers before rapid departure. But, if the enemy fails to have anti-vehicle representation like many games in the last build (where people cried for days about tanks) then they're doomed to fail. If we have vehicles, we should have a full spread of them. Fortunately, this seems to be planned.. just might take longer than I'd like. Thankfully Dust isn't exclusively infantry. the only anti-vehicle that will even touch a dropship are kitten missiles and the forge gun. AV grenades don't do jack unless you fly really close in attempt to get kills. and no one specks into kitten missiles because they are worthless on the ground other than the few LAVs that run around. tanks will just eat missiles and either A pick you out and shoot you or B run away and lick the wounds. the forge guns are good but you have to run as a heavy and some people just don't like running that slow. the training tree requires you to go heavy. which is fine but you have to be pretty dedicated and willing to pump a lot of isk to run one. especially when a merc sniper can drop you pretty fast.
TiMeSpLiT--TeR Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 326	Posted - 2012.10.13 06:47:00 - [13] - Quote I heard they will add Webifier to slow them down. Soon.
mikenasty Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 10	Posted - 2012.10.13 07:34:00 - [14] - Quote just forge gun them...
Shiro Mokuzan GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 106	Posted - 2012.10.13 07:50:00 - [15] - Quote Rhadiem wrote: I seriously hope Dropships have a lot of work left to be done to them before release. Reports of them flipping over (!??) by being hit by swarm launchers, and generally being very weak for their sluggish manner shows me they're not ready for release. Considering they're designed to pick up and drop off troops, they need more tank. And with more tank, swarm launchers probably need some love so they can actually hit them when moving. Gunships I can see with less tank and the ability to evade and outrun launchers, because they're kinda like LAV's in that they should hit and run, not be hovering turrets. (CCP, please give us gunships) Gunships are pretty much the definition of a hovering turret. Maybe you're thinking of fighters?
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.10.13 11:08:00 - [16] - Quote NO-ONE uses them as transport. Stop the lies please. At most you fly 1 drop, then go go gadget gunship for the whole game. Blackhawks masquerading as Apaches... Swarms SHOULD rip you apart. HP is pretty good I've heard, provided you fit them well. We won't see many Dropships at all once gunships are released.
Threvis Valan Doomheim 40	Posted - 2012.10.13 11:13:00 - [17] - Quote as discusssed before the relationship between dropships and swarms should have... 1) swarms do less damage because they auto-lock 2) swarms travel faster than dropships do 3) include defenses like ECM and flares for dropships 4) have swarms with a max range of 100m or so to reward pilot skill 5) swarms take the shortest distance to the target instead of foolishly trying to pursue from behind no matter what angle theyre fired from.
Tailss Prower Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 26	Posted - 2012.10.13 11:45:00 - [18] - Quote STB Vermaak Doe wrote: I think that the base cpu/ pg of a dropship should be bumped up to near tank levels ( a lot less pg/cpu of a tank but more than currently are) and swarms should be a guaranteed hit and by doing that the bumping up cpu and pg is useless if swarms are a guaranteed hit because they can flip you so easy and thats not what is killing the swarms it's how they fly they always follow the flightpath instead of acturally CHARGING after it
Tailss Prower Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 26	Posted - 2012.10.13 11:47:00 - [19] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: NO-ONE uses them as transport. Stop the lies please. At most you fly 1 drop, then go go gadget gunship for the whole game. Blackhawks masquerading as Apaches... Swarms SHOULD rip you apart. HP is pretty good I've heard, provided you fit them well. We won't see many Dropships at all once gunships are released. I don't use mine as a transport cause no one gets in it besides my friends
Tailss Prower Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 26	Posted - 2012.10.13 11:47:00 - [20] - Quote mikenasty wrote: just forge gun them... thats what 2 guys said that one game they both had hit me 10 times each through out that whole game and STILL couldn't kill me

Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.10.13 11:50:00 - [21] - Quote They need bigger forge guns :P
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 248	Posted - 2012.10.13 11:50:00 - [22] - Quote True that swarms are frustratingly slow as they can't reach running away dropship (tho prolly speed-fited) *But how about fixing their habit of flying where the said dropship was* in order to make it possible for missiles to intercept?** That would reward smart positioning for swarm users, while spamming from rear and far away would still be pretty much worthless.
Bhor Derri Legion of Eden 95	Posted - 2012.10.13 12:20:00 - [23] - Quote Swarms and AVs should deal less damage to tanks and travel a little bit faster in order to be useful againist dropships. AV 'nades need a nerf
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 248	Posted - 2012.10.13 12:42:00 - [24] - Quote Bhor Derri wrote: AV 'nades need a nerf not really a nerf, but their homing capability should be reduced significantly.
Sin3 DeusNomine Doomheim 142	Posted - 2012.10.13 18:21:00 - [25] - Quote I love how when a person all of a sudden gets destroyed in one game out of 20 by a dropship dropships are all of a sudden over powered. Yes I do agree there is a problem with swarms but it is not speed or damage. Once people reach proto swarms a volley will rip off half of a dropships shield That is the best tanked myron. Myron with passive tank at its max with best support skills is 3800 Shields and you can get 28% damage resists and 1250 armor. That is not much. If you made swarms faster then dropships proto swarms would be a insta I win button always against dropships. Hell even Militant swarms would be I Win because they seem to somehow always like to flip you over and with how slow handling is you can not recover because CCP decided to listen to noobs that handling was to tough to get use too. Right now all CCP needs to do with swarms is make them take a direct path. Swarms are quick already. Any drop ship circling will get hit. Also CCP needs to fix it so swarms can not do a 90 degree turn they need to have a bigger arc to there turns. With direct path any dropship that is circling will be a guarantee hit for swarms. This will force pilots out of orbit. And for those idiots saying oh but dropships do not move troops. Well of coarse they do not I gain nothing from doing that. Once CCP actually makes it worth while to pick up some friends and move them to point A from point D I will do it because I gain from it. My XP is already lower then most peoples when I fly why would I want to risk my 800k dropship just to pick someone up and gain nothing from it. But the risk is not worth loosing overhead support currently. And when you do attempt to come in for a landing swarms love to jam you into the ground causing massive damage if not destroying a dropship. CCP has been listening to much to noobs that can not invest a single point into AV then actually listening to vehicle pilots that agree there is problems and give great info back on how to fix it with out destroying there career. I am not saying my fix is the ultimate one but it is one that will make the greatest impact without over buffing swarms. To where no vehicle stands a chance against them.
Flagratus ZionTCD Legacy Rising 69	Posted - 2012.10.13 19:30:00 - [26] - Quote I've gone Anti-Armor for a few missions, in hopes to bring down a dropship, only to watch the missiles never make contact with it. Usually they hit if the dropship pilot makes an error, causing his flight path to become unstable. The swarms, as Dust Fiend has stated, are slow. They look to be traveling at a velocity of about 40 to 50 miles per hour. Not really enough speed to even really stay aloft, but apparently they do. They have a terrible lock on system. And they take the longest path to their destination, than taking the shortest. I mean, if I had lock on my target, I would expect the missile to take the shortest route to it's target, not swing wide then come back around and ride the targets butt like a **** movie.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 742	Posted - 2012.10.13 19:36:00 - [27] - Quote After playing with the Dropship for a while (Coming out regularly at the top of board due to having good gunners, usually hitting around 20kills.. and the ocassional kill for me by landing on people..) I feel you're right, they do need a bit more speed, I finally worked out how to stop flipping but It's still a nuisance. I'd increase the speed when we get flares, don't just increase the speed now and give Dropships nothing, otherwise they'll just dissapear completely. If you want to keep Dropships out of the way, harrass them with Forge guns or keep them moving with Swarms, I'm constantly running from swarms, but for the love of god, don't have all of you switch to swarms, last match I was chased by atleast half the team with swarms, we won because they were fighting back, just aiming for me. (was great.)
Governor Odius Doomheim 177	Posted - 2012.10.13 20:12:00 - [28] - Quote One thing I think we're overlooking is that dropships are only immune to swarms if you do the AC-130 style of flight. I propose that we fix dropship balance by making that no longer the MO for dropships. This requires two things: 1) Make killing from a fast-moving dropship infeasible. Damage penalties to dropship turrets and perhaps penalties to range on the turrets as well. This way a pilot orbiting at high speed like that can only expect their gunner to pull in maybe a dozen kills, probably less. Not enough to justify the expense of a dropship. 2) Transport assists. CCP has mentioned a couple times that this (or something similar) is on the way and I'm really looking forward to it. The idea is to give a pilot a portion of the war points earned by anyone they recently dropped off. Between these two things we can keep dropships from going extinct, but also force them into a support (rather than aerial sniper) role. Dropships will be vulnerable to swarms when they are stationary and providing support to a ground team, but still able to escape them when they are on the move. A dropship's survival becomes a matter of awareness and reaction time, rather than ability to hold the joystick forward and slightly to the left. And, as I've stated before, there should not be a Swarm Launcher starter fit.
TiMeSpLiT--TeR Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 326	Posted - 2012.10.13 21:15:00 - [29] - Quote Just wait for webifiers.
Evane Sa'edi Celtic Anarchy 62	Posted - 2012.10.13 22:45:00 - [30] - Quote Swarm launchers are at the momment one of the only weapon systems that can act as an anti-air defence. Why do DS pilots complain when they are shot down by them, thats what they were designed to do. The Swarm gunners should complain more than pilots, the warheads have been made smaller, the lock range is smaller, the dumbfire mode does't work(at the momment) and the missiles can be outrun. The launchers were better before the last 2 rebuilds. 350hp per warhead & lock range greater than 400 metres.

Khortez D Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 51	Posted - 2012.10.13 23:06:00 - [31] - Quote chaff pods for DS's, just some of em. so they won't be completely helpless against swarms, no matter how buffed swarms get. clarification: not against buffing swarms at all, i watched a pilot out-fly my swarms when i shot multiple at him. and that sucked, though i figured he just knew what he was doing with it. if it's not supposed to be like this then that's cool. buff swarms. but as a Drop-ship pilot. i would like to have some small defense against swarms, and chaff pods i think fit perfectly. of course don't give pilots an infinite amount. just some. idea i think needs tweaking, so if anyone likes it feel free to improve on it.
Buzzwords Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION 416	Posted - 2012.10.13 23:46:00 - [32] - Quote swarms to slow, dropships to weak. i think we need to figure out what dropships are for first. as is now they can linger indefinitely. that's a gunship, not a dropship. and it's even overpowered as a gunship. a true dropship would need LOTS of EHP with very little ability to SUSTAIN damage. the idea being that they come in, take a beating but safely drop off their passengers, and still have a large enough buffer of hitpoints to get out alive. the counter to this would be poor regeneration. the already low pg/cpu keeps them from fitting large boosters/reppers, and if they were slower (or swarms were faster) they'd be forced to actually TAKE the damage thrown at them, and eventually be killed if they chose to linger what we have now is just about the exact opposite. if they manage to get hit they go down fairly easily, but that hardly matters because they are capable of infinitely tanking swarm launchers by way of evasion. personally i'd like to see the swarms move MUCH faster, while increasing the built in shield/armor amounts of the dropships. (i would not however increase their fitting stats, as this would open them up for superior reppers/boosters) i've not yet seen a dropship get rag-dolled like some people are reporting, but yah if that happens, that would also need to stop happening.
Ieukoplast Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 169	Posted - 2012.10.14 00:17:00 - [33] - Quote Yeah, the dropships right now are a problem. Pretty much the only reliable way to take them out is with a forge.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.10.14 00:32:00 - [34] - Quote IMO swarm speed should depend on the tier of the launcher, so advanced and prototype swarms should be much faster and more able to hit dropships.
Sledge H'ammer Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.10.14 02:55:00 - [35] - Quote A build back I used to love anti armour and my swarm launcher, I'd Ignore the dropships and pound away at the mother ship. Now the damn things won't lock on anything, I can't get them to dumb fire And most my sp is in swarms lol As for turrets I use them to do the same, eat away at the main ships shields and armour, though some think they need a lock system, we are defenseless in them and if the oppossing side has sense they'll take the turrets out. To many though seem to ignore the turrets and concentrate more on fighting each other, which I guess gets better rewards than just trying to get victory or avoid defeat via demolishing their ship
Gunner Needed The Southern Legion 111	Posted - 2012.10.14 17:07:00 - [36] - Quote your missiles may not be hitting but the dropship is all but useless as long as you keep shooting
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2012.10.14 17:31:00 - [37] - Quote Question, Is everyone here talking about the same kind os swarm launcher? Has anyone bothered to train up swarm launchers to compare how the different levels work? Or even to read through the weapon stats to see if the missile speed is different model to model? Even vs. the starter fit swarms, it does take at least a minimum of contoler skill to outrun a missiles without crashing the ship. And unless a drop ship pilot is using the better turrets and has decent gunners they can't hit squat while flying around the map in a big circle the whole match.


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