DUST Search - Forge Gun range/damage

Jason Pearson wrote:

Zero Harpuia wrote:

I've crusaded for the Forge before, and now I am being called to its defense again...

The Forge is inaccurate. With the quake during charge, any kind of long range shot is a pure crapshoot. In fact, against all logic, it isn't even hitscan. You have to lead a shot that supposedly moves in excess of 6k meters per second. Plus, it is useless as an Anti-Personnel weapon.

The Forge is slow. Charging requires you to commit to a slow pace, and an inability to adjust for moving targets getting behind cover. It takes six seconds for the Breach to charge, and those six seconds render you immobile. It takes three for the standard, which you can hold, and 2.5 for the Assault, which must be fired at the moment of charge. (I may need to get these numbers again, I was a FG user back in E3 build before they were nerfed.)

The Forge is weak, to an extent. The normal variant can't even oneshot an LAV without some serious damage mods. Its DPS (if my numbers are right) is 400 per second. If you fire at the moment it charges and the shot always hits, which it has a 40% chance to not do anyway. 350 dps for the breach variant.

The Forge is expensive. ALL Heavy only equipment is twice as expensive as any comparable lightweight device.

The Forge must be manually aimed. It isn't lock and forget like its lightweight counterpart. It has an accuracy rating of 60%. Almost half the time, no matter how good a shot you are, that sumkitten will veer wide.

The Forge requires a heavy suit. A heavy without something to scare off infantry at medium range is an expensive prize turkey for any enterprising Assault Suit.

The Forge is meant for AV combat. It IS the face of intelligent AV that isn't a vehicle. It has zero application in man-to-man ground fights.

The Forge is a modified mining laser. That is badass.

The Forge is weak? Tell that to my nearly 4k ehp Myron that just got killed in two hits, the Forge is not weak. It may have a slow charge rate but there is no escaping it. I've been hit 3 times repeatedly once, the first two sent every to 0, as I flew towards the ground the final one hit me, blowing me up. So things don't seem to add up, I can fly around fast and I still get hit by it. Tell me, you say the Forge Gun is expensive, but should it really have the ability to knock out something that costs 300k ISK so fast? It's just a shame is all.

Which seriously need the ceiling sorted but these Forge Guns totally decimate any Dropship right now

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Sylwester Dziewiecki Doomheim 83	Posted - 2012.11.18 18:45:00 - [31] - Quote Forge gun's are ok. OP, SI has a lot of good pilots, ask someone for advice how to fly.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.11.18 20:25:00 - [32] - Quote Comparing LARGE railgun to a forge gun which is handheld and as small as the SMALL railgun turrets yet it can do everything better than the large railgun
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.11.19 01:49:00 - [33] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: Kain Spero wrote: The don't need to decrease the range of the forge gun. They need to buff the flight ceiling of the Dropship. You're trying to fix the wrong thing. Says the forgegun user. They need a range decrease. The heavy suit allows forge users to get up close and survive against tanks and LAV's. Decrease range. Increase ceiling. Fix swarms. Problem solved. LOL what heavy suits have u been using? pretty sure missiles OHK everything and pretty sure a direct hit with a railgun kills in 1 hit (which it should) a heavy doesnt actually get close to a tank at all he will never survive look at all the good heavies, ur friend kain included, they sit up on an elevated spot a distance away and hit u by surprise trying to get a slow ass heavy close to a target to shoot will never work range is fine.
Corvus Ravensong Skyel Industries Subspace Exploration Agency 179	Posted - 2012.11.19 02:21:00 - [34] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: I've crusaded for the Forge before, and now I am being called to its defense again... The Forge is inaccurate. With the quake during charge, any kind of long range shot is a pure crapshoot. In fact, against all logic, it isn't even hitscan. You have to lead a shot that supposedly moves in excess of 6k meters per second. Plus, it is useless as an Anti-Personnel weapon. The Forge is slow. Charging requires you to commit to a slow pace, and an inability to adjust for moving targets getting behind cover. It takes six seconds for the Breach to charge, and those six seconds render you immobile. It takes three for the standard, which you can hold, and 2.5 for the Assault, which must be fired at the moment of charge. (I may need to get these numbers again, I was a FG user back in E3 build before they were nerfed.) The Forge is weak, to an extent. The normal variant can't even oneshot an LAV without some serious damage mods. Its DPS (if my numbers are right) is 400 per second. If you fire at the moment it charges and the shot always hits, which it has a 40% chance to not do anyway. 350 dps for the breach variant. The Forge is expensive. ALL Heavy only equipment is twice as expensive as any comparable lightweight device. The Forge must be manually aimed. It isn't lock and forget like its lightweight counterpart. It has an accuracy rating of 60%. Almost half the time, no matter how good a shot you are, that sumkitten will veer wide. The Forge requires a heavy suit. A heavy without something to scare off infantry at medium range is an expensive prize turkey for any enterprising Assault Suit. The Forge is meant for AV combat. It IS the face of intelligent AV that isn't a vehicle. It has zero application in man-to-man ground fights. The Forge is a modified mining laser. That is badass. The Forge is weak? Tell that to my nearly 4k ehp Myron that just got killed in two hits, the Forge is not weak. It may have a slow charge rate but there is no escaping it. I've been hit 3 times repeatedly once, the first two sent every to 0, as I flew towards the ground the final one hit me, blowing me up. So things don't seem to add up, I can fly around fast and I still get hit by it. Tell me, you say the Forge Gun is expensive, but should it really have the ability to knock out something that costs 300k ISK so fast? It's just a shame is all. Which seriously need the ceiling sorted but these Forge Guns totally decimate any Dropship right now Takes one hell of a forge gunner to swat a dropship if your flight path isn't all smooth and predictable. You can just run around in circles to avoid the swarm missiles, shoot from across the map with your side missile turrets to avoid blaster turret and missile turret fire, now you want to nerf the last thing that can knock you down with any degree of reliability because the guys using forge guns finally learned to predict your flight path? C'mon...
Tyrus 4 Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 83	Posted - 2012.11.19 02:34:00 - [35] - Quote nevermind. this thread was necro'd up, didn't realize it.
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2012.11.19 03:27:00 - [36] - Quote A skilled up forgegunner can fire every 1.8 seconds which is plenty of time for three shots if the dropship is flying toward the gunner or simply not moving away at top speed. The same gunner will be able to kill a fully tanked ship in three shots. I've been shot at by beginners with low level guns and by more experience gunners who have popped my ship inside thirty seconds of liftoff. Forge guns take practice and SP but they are extremely effective in the right hands. Unlike swarms my first warning of danger is the loss of over half my shield strength, and I may not get any clue where it came from so I won't know where to head to best evade. A squad with two gunners can command the sky. You don't see that often in pub matches, but it's common in corp battles.
Corvus Ravensong Skyel Industries Subspace Exploration Agency 179	Posted - 2012.11.19 03:55:00 - [37] - Quote Skihids, I've had forge gunners succeed at taking me down, and I've listened to the forge gunner in the other room scream in frustration as he misses shot after shot. As a dropship pilot you have to think in 3 dimensions, as well as consider the sight picture you are giving the enemy - hover and you are a sitting duck for everything, fly fast and straight and eventually forge gunners / rail turrets are going to get their lead correct, sudden altitude changes and jukes to the left / right can drive a forge gunner absolutely crazy. You have three axis of movement in a dropship, use all 3 to farther reduce the number of gunners with the skill required to shoot you down. And if your team isn't calling out heavies (especially forge gun using heavies), then assume every red dot is packing a forge, and fly like a crazy bastard (don't forget to give the poor grunts in back some airsickness bags, they'll need em)
xMarauder Doomheim 139	Posted - 2012.11.19 05:49:00 - [38] - Quote Another nerf forge gun thread huh? Damn it, I'm losing faith.....
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2012.11.19 06:10:00 - [39] - Quote Corvus Ravensong wrote: Skihids, I've had forge gunners succeed at taking me down, and I've listened to the forge gunner in the other room scream in frustration as he misses shot after shot. As a dropship pilot you have to think in 3 dimensions, as well as consider the sight picture you are giving the enemy - hover and you are a sitting duck for everything, fly fast and straight and eventually forge gunners / rail turrets are going to get their lead correct, sudden altitude changes and jukes to the left / right can drive a forge gunner absolutely crazy. You have three axis of movement in a dropship, use all 3 to farther reduce the number of gunners with the skill required to shoot you down. And if your team isn't calling out heavies (especially forge gun using heavies), then assume every red dot is packing a forge, and fly like a crazy bastard (don't forget to give the poor grunts in back some airsickness bags, they'll need em) You make a good point, I probably fly at the ceiling too much. On the other hand there are places on the map where you are at your ceiling when close to the ground an you don't have much of an option. I'm probably also flying too predictably due to flying as if I have swarms after me even when I don't. I'll keep that in mind and see how it affects my survivability. Flying too crazy will nerf your own gunners though, so there does have to be ome compromise.
Snagman 313 Carbon 7 41	Posted - 2012.11.19 08:38:00 - [40] - Quote Nerf Nerf Nerf that's all I seem to hear these days. I remember when "Dropship stomping" was the ultimate weapon on the battlefield so we learned to play Forge gun chicken..... good times!!!! So no matter what happens people will find effective ways to take out certain vehicles even if you Nerf the FG which I don't agree with as that would render it even less effective against HAVs which is it's primary role, we (The AV brigade) will figure out new ways to knock you out of the sky I'm thinking missile tank off the top of my head. The best way for you guys to stay alive is the same way I stay alive against snipers, don't stop moving EVER!! As a heavy I die a lot to ambushes and snipers the same tactics apply to large vehicles against FG gunners as we are AV snipers. I lose a lot of ISK while running my FG fit runs about 150K and I can lose 4 or 5 in a match easily against either a Advanced HAV or Dropship with good gunners. One thing I saw was certain Pilots having pre determined fight paths that would cause Swarm rockets to strike terrain and only left small openings for me to lead my shots, maybe something to think about. Snag out

Knightshade Belladonna Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 288	Posted - 2012.11.19 11:21:00 - [41] - Quote say what? Decrease forge range, increase flight cieling... so you can shoot the forge from all the way across the map with your endless range missiles while he shoots at you and falls way short? Did I get that right? Forge shots need leading when there is a moving target over around 150m+, it's not like it's point at you fire and your dead from across the map. Unlike the assault rifle, sniper, HMG, sub,achine gun , laser rifle and countless other weapons the forge is not auto hit detect weapon, it has to travel at a slower rate that can easily be outran
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2012.11.19 18:26:00 - [42] - Quote Lead Squall wrote: another idea would be to add some spread to the shots. If you make the forge gun slightly less precise, you would have a similar effect, but if wouldn't effectively be a heavy sniper rifle that takes out nearly everything. This would totally screw forge guns. Because they have such a long charge time between shots there are a lot of situations where you only get one shot to save yourself. Having that one shot randomly miss even if you aimed perfectly is not a good idea.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 742	Posted - 2012.11.20 00:32:00 - [43] - Quote Such bads necroing a pretty old thread.. -_- Alright kiddies, here we go: As a competent Dropship Pilot, I still feel there is no point in being a Dropship Pilot dedicated to troop transport, I regularly state that the missiles need nerfing (A Dropship should never be a attack ship, it should be used for dropping off troops safely) but they need to be a lot stronger. In a previous post I typed up a Dropships description, it's meant to be a heavily armored troop transport vehicle, now for all you mugs that keep resorting to "FORGEGUN IS RAILGUN AND IT MUST SHOOT TO END OF MAP COS DESCRIPTION SAYS SO!" Must agree that a Dropship Description describes a heavily armored vehicle, not a lightweight, flimsy, coffin that can be destroyed very quickly. I've also been practicing with Forge Guns, being able to kill Vehicles with great ease. I can see why you don't want it nerfed, it's a spectacular weapon that is good for all types of enemies, vehicles and infantry alike. You say you can't aim it, LOL, that **** is unbelievably easy to aim, you time your attack, judge the distance and release the shot. Stupidly easy. I ask for a Nerf to range, nothing more. A Forge Gun is a devastating weapon, especially when deployed to the correct location. Problem is, it can become unbeatable. I've seen Gunners in mountains just sniping vehicles, I sit in a mountain popping every LAV that comes into the game, before it deploys. Dropships die within three shots of my basic Assault Forge Gun, where ever I am. Take harvest line for example, you get that central point (with the two ladders leading onto it) and no vehicle should be able to move, if you're not an utterly useless forge gunner that is. Long post short Nerf Missiles Nerf Range Give Dropships more armor (MORE DEFENSE LESS OFFENSE) Raise the ceiling height because Dropships can't fly over mountains (Q_Q) (btw, posted this when I was a Dropship scrub and while I still think much of this is true I don't need advice from any other "pilot", I'm quite confident in my abilities. Aslong as I don't freeze that is.)
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.20 00:48:00 - [44] - Quote Problem with nerfing Forge range AND raising the Dropship flight ceiling is that you're effectively double-nerfing the Forge. And unless the Forge Gunner is heavily specced into their Heavy Sharpshooter skill and has the absolute perfect location on a map that's practically custom-built for them, they DON'T have a range large enough to control most maps. Even then, a solidly-tanked HAV can survive a few shots and return fire effectively, so SOME vehicles can still move around, and put som ehurt back on the FG guy. Swarm patching needs fixing. I think it's legitimate that missiles fired from behind a Dropship and trying to "chase" it can be avoided, but it's NOT right for them to be able to ignore missiles fired head-on at them without having to change course, and it's NOT right for supposedly "locked on" missiles to be going out of their way to slam into nearby terrain and buildings when those things aren't remotely close to the direction of fire. Flight ceiling could to with being increased, but that SHOULDN'T come with a range nerf on Forge Guns. And that's even before we consider that Forge Guns have a long charge time, reveal themselves REALLY obviously while charging, and can't move very fast at the best of times, which gets worse while charging, and have MUCH less shields and armour than your Dropship or even the LAVs they can one-shot, or the fact that their projectile travel time means they have to be GOOD (not just "not useless" like you claim) to hit a fast-moving target at long-range. Well-fitted Dropships can already tank a few Forge hits, and it's hard to fit a tank that CAN'T tank at least one. Nerf Missile Turrets. Fix Swarm Launchers. Increase Flight Ceiling. Done.


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