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Bosse Ansgar
47
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Posted - 2012.10.08 20:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
or is there a reason that swarms cannot lock onto dropsuits? Both dropsuits and vehicles have a power output that can be locked onto, and both's signatures can be dampened, yet only vehicles can be locked on to. Is there a reason? It would keep you from having to try to take on the recoil free AR's running around the field with an SMG or pistol and grenades at mid-long range. They are much easier to avoid by foot since players can easily find cover and fit into hidey holes that vehicles cannot take advantage of. And the ammo capacity and carry load is low with a really long reload, so it's not like it would suddenly rule the battle field. It would however finally give those AR users who don't have to deal with things like recoil or small clips something to fear besides the occasional sniper.
Edit:
People here have been saying this would make it too hard for regular units to get around. Here's a work around:
Make swarms possible to shoot down (with an SP reward) with regular weapons and give a warning when a SL is trying to lock on to you, problem solved. If SL camp out trying to pop people with launchers, the other team will catch on and rake in SP by shooting their missiles out of the air. I see no reason that this would throw off the balance. |
STB Vermaak Doe
558
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Posted - 2012.10.08 21:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Not a bad point |
The Dragon Ascendant
Celtic Anarchy
101
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Posted - 2012.10.08 21:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
One of the many reasons I never use swarms unless I just happen to be near a supply depot and there's a vehicle I can shoot. That, and because it feels like it should be a heavy weapon. I know it isn't, but come on, how is a rocket launcher not a heavy weapon?? |
dent 308
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
967
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Posted - 2012.10.08 21:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
A few builds ago swarms could be used for anti-infantry and it was terrible. Swarms would be the primary weapon fight after fight, it got really stupid. |
Kay High
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
86
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Posted - 2012.10.08 21:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
I take it that you weren't here for Replication. Three builds ago there were guys that would go around with SL and camp spawns. The AOE was a lot larger, and had lock on and dumb fire. |
Debacle Nano
Shadow Company HQ
639
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Posted - 2012.10.08 21:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Can I lock onto you with a stinger? |
Agnoeo
Jedi Knights.
35
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Posted - 2012.10.08 21:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Debacle Nano wrote:Can I lock onto you with a stinger?
Troops today don't have suits that give off massive power output.
Having SL lock onto troops could cause serious issues. Like others pointed out, in a couple builds ago. SL were used against infantry(especially the Teletubbies) instead of their original purpose of killing Vehicles.
Regardless of the OP they would be on infantry. It would be annoy as hell trying to specifically lock onto a LAV while its also trying to lock onto ground troops that pass in front of the LAV. So being one that likes to use SL, I say keep it as it is. Just suit up with a SMG as your back up, and go that route. It's not the best, but not the worst either.
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Bosse Ansgar
47
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Posted - 2012.10.08 21:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'm taking a realism view here, not a balance one. It makes no sense the way it works now. You can always make swarm damage vs. dropsuit reduced. Also, the swarms have been softened up quite a bit. If you simply add in very slight delay while the swarm missile's propulsion fires up and make the swarm missiles shootable then it's a fair fight. AV can camp a spawn all day, but if an AR shoots the swarms when they are near each other they will blow each other up, and if they are still near the AV unit he's gone too.
EDIT: To your point Agnoeo, you could just as easily set the lock on to switch between vehicle and infantry lock on at the press of a button. |
Icy Tiger
63
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Posted - 2012.10.08 22:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lol Replication. Good times. |
Super Cargo
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
428
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Posted - 2012.10.08 23:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
STB Vermaak Doe wrote:Not a bad point
lol ikr. At first I was like, "wtf, this is stupid". But then I realized he had a point.
Regardless of logic, I don't think swarms should be able to lock on to dropsuits. It would make crossing open terrain that much more annoying. Snipers and AV shooting at you? I don't think so.
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Goric Rumis
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
80
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Posted - 2012.10.08 23:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
I like the way they work now, personally. Maybe I'm weird in that I like being a specialist, and I like having trade-offs. As frustrating as it can be. They're not perfect, but they don't need this.
And there are plenty of ways to rationalize its realism. In fact, you could rationalize the realism of pretty much any game mechanism. It's all pseudo-science anyway. |
Bosse Ansgar
47
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Posted - 2012.10.08 23:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Then would any of you be willing to have an alt-fire option available for the swarm launcher? As it is the AV units have to get in close and spray buckshot-like fire from an SMG to have a hope of surviving an encounter with either a sniper, AR, or any other weapon. The only time they really stand a chance right now is against another SMG.
Unless you would be willing to cut the spread and recoil on the SMG so that it is at least semi-functional as a mid ranged weapon. It makes no sense for the AR to have virtually no spread or recoil and the SMG to scatter bullets like it's throwing handfuls of small loose pebbles. The tech is virtually the same, so the difference should be nowhere near this severe. in return you could increase it's CPU/PG a bit so that it's a little more than a pistol, but less than a light weapon. Give AV unit's a solid fallback, and I'll have no complaints. |
Call ME CANDY
14
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Posted - 2012.10.08 23:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
STB Vermaak Doe wrote:Not a bad point
of course the STB player agrees to auto lock-on anti infantry launcher lol
... why aim |
Skryd Mewgun
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2012.10.09 01:39:00 -
[14] - Quote
The reason swarms lock on is so they can't be anti infantry. Just like the forge guns should be. These are big av weapons and should barely hit the broadside of a barn not infantry |
STB Vermaak Doe
558
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Posted - 2012.10.09 01:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Call ME CANDY wrote:STB Vermaak Doe wrote:Not a bad point of course the STB player agrees to auto lock-on anti infantry launcher lol ... why aim
Yet another troll, theoretically a heat seeking missile can track infantry so this would make sense |
Zekain Kade
BetaMax.
931
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Posted - 2012.10.09 02:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
it would be replication all over again.
lock on
fire
????
profit.
There is no way for infantry to dodge swarm missiles. There is not enough cover, infantry are slow, Swarms are god like when tracking things, and they have massive range.
There will be no need for any other weapon to be used. |
MItt R0mney
Doomheim
58
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Posted - 2012.10.09 02:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
dent 308 wrote:A few builds ago swarms could be used for anti-infantry and it was terrible. Swarms would be the primary weapon fight after fight, it got really stupid.
It was only terrible because of the splash damage/radius + dumb fire combo. If swarms can lock on to dropsuits, it could be better balanced by lock on warnings and such.
This is a good idea. +1 |
J'Jor Da'Wg
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
648
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Posted - 2012.10.09 02:18:00 -
[18] - Quote
I could see heavies, possibly, but that would just gimp the heavy suit even more than it already is. |
DUST Fiend
Immobile Infantry
1903
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Posted - 2012.10.09 02:24:00 -
[19] - Quote
I agree with you, though they should be less accurate against dropsuits. I WAS here for the second build, and this ISN'T what this guy is asking for. Before, you could just rain hell at random and get kill after kill after kill. With this, you would need to acquire a lock, which would take a while, then fire, with the missiles hitting near the target, not necessarily right on target.
Either that, or they need to implement an anti infantry SL into the game, that's designed more for ground support. I know it's a balance thing, but it IS silly that missiles capable of destroying a tank can hardly even tickle a dropsuit. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
421
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Posted - 2012.10.09 02:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Question.
You say that the suits have a high power output to lock on to, but the counterargument is that they can mask that output with the same kind of futuretech that produces it... so why has no one brought that up? Beyond balance issues, it's a solid point. |
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Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
421
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Posted - 2012.10.09 02:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:I agree with you, though they should be less accurate against dropsuits. I WAS here for the second build, and this ISN'T what this guy is asking for. Before, you could just rain hell at random and get kill after kill after kill. With this, you would need to acquire a lock, which would take a while, then fire, with the missiles hitting near the target, not necessarily right on target.
Either that, or they need to implement an anti infantry SL into the game, that's designed more for ground support. I know it's a balance thing, but it IS silly that missiles capable of destroying a tank can hardly even tickle a dropsuit.
I'm pretty sure they are supposed to be shaped charges, only really doing damage at and beyond the point of impact... plus, even if the missiles barely missed the splash is laughably weak, while they are way too strong to be allowed to hit directly... |
Bosse Ansgar
47
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Posted - 2012.10.09 06:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Bosse Ansgar wrote:Then would any of you be willing to have an alt-fire option available for the swarm launcher? As it is the AV units have to get in close and spray buckshot-like fire from an SMG to have a hope of surviving an encounter with either a sniper, AR, or any other weapon. The only time they really stand a chance right now is against another SMG.
Unless you would be willing to cut the spread and recoil on the SMG so that it is at least semi-functional as a mid ranged weapon. It makes no sense for the AR to have virtually no spread or recoil and the SMG to scatter bullets like it's throwing handfuls of small loose pebbles. The tech is virtually the same, so the difference should be nowhere near this severe. in return you could increase it's CPU/PG a bit so that it's a little more than a pistol, but less than a light weapon. Give AV unit's a solid fallback, and I'll have no complaints.
^So this doesn't interest anyone?
Also, if you up the damage from splash a bit but keep the radius tight, it would be much more workable. That and be able to shoot down the swarms. I'm warming up to that idea. |
William HBonney
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
318
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Posted - 2012.10.09 09:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
Swarms just need to be av and sadly they don't do too well in that aspect....the rockets are too slow a projectile |
Bosse Ansgar
47
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Posted - 2012.10.09 12:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Question.
You say that the suits have a high power output to lock on to, but the counterargument is that they can mask that output with the same kind of futuretech that produces it... so why has no one brought that up? Beyond balance issues, it's a solid point.
Because vehicles can dampen their signature too. Unless your signature is so small that it isn't detectable on the radar, it should be detectable via AV lock on. Realistically speaking that is. It all comes down to whether people want balance or realism. |
Wolf Ritter vonKaldari
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
97
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Posted - 2012.10.09 12:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
STB Vermaak Doe wrote:theoretically a heat seeking missile can track infantry so this would make sense
No it can't. At the temperatures you'd need to have a heat seeking missile to track a human target the missile would reject the human target in favor of a sunbaked steel support beam instead. This is what an infrared image shot by a camera designed to see people looks like, IIRC it's called Medium Infrared. Notice how the cars and the pavement out in the sun are a lot hotter than the people? A missile operating at that low end of the infrared spectrum would be rejecting human targets in favor of pavement. That's why they operate on the higher end of the spectrum like this AIM-9 sidewinder's infrared sensors in Far Infrared. |
Wolf Ritter vonKaldari
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
97
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Posted - 2012.10.09 12:25:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bosse Ansgar wrote:Because vehicles can dampen their signature too. Unless your signature is so small that it isn't detectable on the radar, it should be detectable via AV lock on. Realistically speaking that is. It all comes down to whether people want balance or realism.
That is not how the electromagnetic spectrum works. Link |
Goric Rumis
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
80
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Posted - 2012.10.10 04:48:00 -
[27] - Quote
Bosse Ansgar wrote:It all comes down to whether people want balance or realism.
Always balance for me. Realism is a very slippery notion when we're talking about something so far in the future that it's likely the very idea of fighting ground wars, at least the way we think of them, would seem absurd. We have to assume a world that works however the designer says it works, just because. In this fantasy world of New Eden, for example, we have the ability to create implants that convey an individual's consciousness between bodies at the instant of death, and yet we're firing dumb rounds that can't acquire a target any better than human eyes.
If we were going for realism, you'd be able to fire swarm missiles into the air at hundreds of rounds per minute, and they'd instantly lock onto targets around the battlefield and rain targeted destruction everywhere. You'd probably also be able to carry at least 100 rounds, using futuristic explosives and propulsion technologies. Then again, there would probably be billions of nanobots everywhere on the battlefield that would eat you alive the minute you set foot on the ground. We're assuming the notion that humans would even be useful on the battlefield, let alone the most effective player.
There's no such thing as realism. Go balance. |
Bosse Ansgar
47
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Posted - 2012.10.10 11:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
Zekain Kade wrote:it would be replication all over again.
lock on
fire
????
profit.
There is no way for infantry to dodge swarm missiles. There is not enough cover, infantry are slow, Swarms are god like when tracking things, and they have massive range.
There will be no need for any other weapon to be used.
You are over generalizing. With that logic I could argue that right now there is no reason to use any other weapon than an AR.
Make swarms possible to shoot down (with an SP reward) with regular weapons and give a warning when a SL is trying to lock on to you, problem solved. If SL camp out trying to pop people with launchers, the other team will catch on and rake in SP by shooting their missiles out of the air. I see no reason that this would throw off the balance. |
Magpie Raven
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
161
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Posted - 2012.10.10 12:22:00 -
[29] - Quote
Has anyone ever thought of a direct fire missile launcher. It would require no lock on and it could be a heavy maybe.
But what I've been thinking is make it a sidearm. Obviously it's not for anti tank but against LAVs? Not huge damage or splash but something to make LAVs think twice before trying to run someone over. Maybe do the damage of 1 or 2 swarm missiles. |
dust badger
BetaMax.
283
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Posted - 2012.10.10 12:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
i think people dont want this idea becasue of the swarm spam of early build
try a forge gun, pretty much does what you described, apart from being a heavy weapon.
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