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[Feedback] Issues with the CQC Scout specialization

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Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.05 04:55:00 - [1] - Quote Didn't really see a thread about this within the first three pages. Most of this information I have used in other threads but have consolidated into a list here. Not enough survivability to last in a firefight. 1v1's are difficult, multiple enemies nigh impossible. Hit detection system has been improved, making it difficult for the scout to close the distance with potential targets. Not enough speed to substantially evade gunfire in open terrain, some maps completely lacking cover over large areas. Scan Profile/Precision system is not very clear and not dependable as a primary means of defense. To expand on above point - no indicator for when you have been spotted to give the scout time to react. Incredibly slow strafe speeds for the suit's capabilities. Low versatility for modules/equipment prevents filling the gap where speed/stealth fails. Low PG/CPU adds to the above ailment. Only physical means of defense speed are shield modules, as armor modules will increase it's mass and subsequently decrease speed. Please do not suggest "Sniper Scouts". That isn't the topic of the thread and Scout suits should not be limited solely to that specialization. Please keep discussion civil and do try to limit your trolling. These are opinions and theories, not facts.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.10.05 05:06:00 - [2] - Quote +1
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 385	Posted - 2012.10.05 05:07:00 - [3] - Quote I firmly disagree
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.05 05:10:00 - [4] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: I firmly disagree Some excellent reasoning you have there.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.05 05:14:00 - [5] - Quote Would also like to add - regarding the profile/precision issue - there are instances that a target should not be able to notice that I am approaching them (sniper who is not looking in my direction, no other infantry in the area) turn around with the apparent knowledge that I had been there. I.E - gun at the ready/switching to sidearm. Other instances my Precision (using a precision enhancer no less) should have picked up the Assault/Logistics suit that was standing at point blank range behind me but they had never come up on my map. Query: How do Profile/Precision mechanics operate? Are they directional or cover a radius? It's assumed that Precision must be lower than the Profile to register as the Scout's Profile/Precision is dramatically lower than that of a Heavy - thereby, according to skills, it should technically be possible for a Scout to be incredibly difficult even for an Active Scanner to pick up. This doesn't seem to be the case.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.10.05 05:53:00 - [6] - Quote +1 to OP Aeon Amadi wrote: Query: How do Profile/Precision mechanics operate? Are they directional or cover a radius? I would also very much like to know this. Hard to test if the system is working as intended when it is unknown how the system is intended to work. Related note, I've heard some buzz that Shield enhancements increase Profile (and thus could reduce the stealth benefits of Scout armor) can anyone confirm if this is accurate (or simply rumor bleeding over from how it's done in EVE) ?
Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.10.05 06:13:00 - [7] - Quote + 1 op
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2012.10.05 07:01:00 - [8] - Quote Try flanking with a shotgun or SMG. A scout is not meant to go toe-to-toe with an assault or heavy, let alone be able to take out several people in a gunfight. A scout caught in a gunfight with other non-scouts should go down most of the time. Edit: I will give you that they have too low strafe speed, and maybe too little sprint speed as well right now.
Auztin Dorriety Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 8	Posted - 2012.10.05 07:56:00 - [9] - Quote Scouts need to be just what their outfit says Scouts.They should be the sneaky recon type need it be with a Sniper rifle or SMG.If I'm Assault I already have more more armor than you.1v1 you should have a slim chance of killing me up front but great chance of killing me in the back.
Mira Adari Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 79	Posted - 2012.10.05 10:42:00 - [10] - Quote I often take out groups of Assaults, Heavies and Logis with my shotgun scout. All militia, only the Shotgun is T1. Prepare your approach, don't charge in, when your spotted, flee when you are engaged from too far away and hide to lay an ambush for pursuers.

Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2012.10.05 10:46:00 - [11] - Quote ^ This guy uses the scout properly. Know when to engage the enemy and don't just charge head on.
Vexen Krios Doomheim 95	Posted - 2012.10.05 10:56:00 - [12] - Quote a skilled FPS player can weave in and out of gunfire in a scout suit....i have seen this first hand and experienced it, though i was on the dying end. However, a scout suit isn't made for frontline tactics. The scout was made for sniping, fast and agile to get to cover as quickly as possible to offer support for their team. people are taking this suit and possibly other suits and branching out from the original ideas that CCP had for them. A heavy suit with high armor is slow and hard to kill, The assault is the all arounder, the logistics is the medium armor and shield healer, and the scout is the low health fast sniper. Not saying that branching out from the original ideas are bad but its not what CCP inteded them for, They aren't going to make a scout suit as strong as a heavy and they arent going to make a heavy as fast as a scout. So why ask? They are entended to be what they are, But i will agree that they are a little bit low on the shields and armor.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.05 12:11:00 - [13] - Quote The scout not supposed to go 1 on 1 against an assualt its not like a front line infantry its recon. How is improved hit detection bad I can now shoot you scouts now. They don't need more survivabilty they should melt like butter against a hot knife when comfront fire. Try fitting shield boosters or go assualt They don't need more speed. Try equiping nanofiber mods if you want to go faster They should be bare bones they a skin tight suit. Try fitting cpu and pg modules or go with logi It sounds like you want to be faster tougher and more flexible scout well no a scout suit should have a lot of limitation for its speed. It shouldn't be able to hold its own against everything that's the assualt suits job.
Ranger SnakeBlood OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 126	Posted - 2012.10.05 14:02:00 - [14] - Quote Again its a case of people not using it right, the hint is in the name its a scout suit and you want it on even footing vrs assult again the hints in the name 9 of 10 times in equall skilled fights assult will win in close quaters if detected, you bonuses is too stealt and detecting enemies not 1v1 so why should it be able to kill a assult by dodging bullets? What i will say tho is it needs a role because like it or not scout is a support role weather it be fire support via sniper or scout role to provide intel to team that is where it would shine so id suggest this game should reward intel as it is just as helpful to a good team as a logi with a repper to reward intel to tacnet i would recoment making it manual rather than current automated system at which scout due to is array of sencors would excell and possibly detect people with its sencors passivly but also have a manual way that is much more reliable. Only people who want a increase in strafe speed are the people who after last build think its a combat class it is not it was broken last build which made it Scout>Assult>heavy>logi.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.05 14:18:00 - [15] - Quote Ranger SnakeBlood wrote: Again its a case of people not using it right, the hint is in the name its a scout suit and you want it on even footing vrs assult again the hints in the name 9 of 10 times in equall skilled fights assult will win in close quaters if detected, you bonuses is too stealt and detecting enemies not 1v1 so why should it be able to kill a assult by dodging bullets? What i will say tho is it needs a role because like it or not scout is a support role weather it be fire support via sniper or scout role to provide intel to team that is where it would shine so id suggest this game should reward intel as it is just as helpful to a good team as a logi with a repper to reward intel to tacnet i would recoment making it manual rather than current automated system at which scout due to is array of sencors would excell and possibly detect people with its sencors passivly but also have a manual way that is much more reliable. Only people who want a increase in strafe speed are the people who after last build think its a combat class it is not it was broken last build which made it Scout>Assult>heavy>logi. Exactly itGÇÖs not a combat suit itGÇÖs a support suit I would think scouts should have an increased detection strength in front of them Im talking serious detection in front of you at 30m it should have a buff to detection to the point unless someone else is running scout with low tech or an assault heavily dampened then they show up on tacnet. It should be normal detection rate after this 30m area though because you couldnGÇÖt fit that much tech on a scout suit. That advantage along with dampeners and sensor booster, stealth equipment and such would make the scout shine as a recon unit, which is what it should.
Goric Rumis Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 80	Posted - 2012.10.05 16:28:00 - [16] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Please do not suggest "Sniper Scouts". That isn't the topic of the thread and Scout suits should not be limited solely to that specialization. No, scout suits shouldn't be limited to sniping, but it's your choice what equipment you use. If you want the speed and agility of the scout suit, you're going to have to sacrifice a few things, including survivability. If the speed isn't enough to keep you alive, you could always use an assault suit instead (or a heavy, but a heavy with a shotgun would be completely useless). It's not that you don't bring up legitimate issues. I just find it problematic that you would assume "CQC Scout" is a granted class that needs to be a widely viable option in the game. The purpose of the scout is to be fast and agile--if some people can use that to their advantage in CQC, then let them use it, but that's not its specified purpose.
Wintars Boar ZionTCD Legacy Rising 64	Posted - 2012.10.05 16:35:00 - [17] - Quote There is still rumor and potential for further ECM and stealth capabilities. It's possible these issues which were brought up (which I fully agree with) could be nullified by future gear. I'm not very hip on the different races in eve, but could CPU/pg limitations be due to the suit being Galente design? Maybe different racial suits will excell in different areas. It could be the minmatar scout will be more of the front line scout, while Galente is relegated to the fringes. #unsure
Ty 'SweetCheeks' Borg Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 192	Posted - 2012.10.05 16:41:00 - [18] - Quote I can totally understand why the scout needed tweaking, but what they've done is a typical CCP bodge job imo. It's the same thing they did with tanks, they were broken so not only did they fix them they buffed the counter. What we have now is far far better hit detection yet the scout's had his strafe nerfed beyond any of the other suits. As it stands I now do better at CQC in a logi suit then I do in a scout.... Something is pretty broken if a scout can't CQC.
Whispercrow Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 102	Posted - 2012.10.05 17:04:00 - [19] - Quote If Scouts are slowed by armor mods and made easier to scan with Shield mods.... wtf is the Scout expected to do?j
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.05 17:14:00 - [20] - Quote Ty 'SweetCheeks' Borg wrote: I can totally understand why the scout needed tweaking, but what they've done is a typical CCP bodge job imo. It's the same thing they did with tanks, they were broken so not only did they fix them they buffed the counter. What we have now is far far better hit detection yet the scout's had his strafe nerfed beyond any of the other suits. As it stands I now do better at CQC in a logi suit then I do in a scout.... Something is pretty broken if a scout can't CQC. Strafing was changef for everyone and better hit detection there was no nerf to them and they don't need a buff they are fast agule suits not specifically cqc or sniping what they do depends on their fit beyond fast and agile. Why not request hp givin from booster increase @wispercrow then don't charge assault you will an should die scouts should be support recon uses and assault for cqc offense and attacking

Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.05 18:00:00 - [21] - Quote Auztin Dorriety wrote: Scouts need to be just what their outfit says Scouts.They should be the sneaky recon type need it be with a Sniper rifle or SMG.If I'm Assault I already have more more armor than you.1v1 you should have a slim chance of killing me up front but great chance of killing me in the back. Not currently viable. As I have previously pointed out, scan mechanics are somewhat broken at the moment and with the Scout's speed severely hit in this build they can't be a good fallback with their unpredictability. Also - I loathe just about anyone who says "Scouts should be the sneaky recon type". That's like saying Heavies -must- be Anti-Vehicle. Avenger 245 wrote: Try equiping nanofiber mods if you want to go faster ..... Are we even playing the same game here? Ranger SnakeBlood wrote: Only people who want a increase in strafe speed are the people who after last build think its a combat class it is not it was broken last build which made it Scout>Assult>heavy>logi. Opinionated assumptions dont' account for much in the forums dude. It only shows how little you honestly know about classes you don't play and gains you the inability to be taken seriously when you bring up an issue. Another thing I'd like to mention is that - if this were the case and Scout suits are in fact supposed to be a support class - they would be the ONLY support class. Logi suits were brought up to par with the Assault Suit and more times than not can hold their own against them. Heavies now have substantial ability to hold their own against pretty much anything that they're fit against. I know this because I have played all of them and only recently have I decided to specialize in the Scout because it seemed to be the most underpowered in this build. As such it's become so frustrating that I simply can't play anymore. There's instances where I should have well be able to use my speed as a defense but can't get out of the way of slow moving LAVs. Wintars Boar wrote: There is still rumor and potential for further ECM and stealth capabilities. It's possible these issues which were brought up (which I fully agree with) could be nullified by future gear. I'm not very hip on the different races in eve, but could CPU/pg limitations be due to the suit being Galente design? Maybe different racial suits will excell in different areas. It could be the minmatar scout will be more of the front line scout, while Galente is relegated to the fringes. #unsure Minmatar usually are the speed tankers, Gallente are more focused on damage output, Amarr usually prefer incredibly heavy armor defense and Caldari specialize in shield tanking.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.05 18:01:00 - [22] - Quote Honestly - can we get some opinions from people who actually play scout suits for anything other than sniping or is just forum-warriors who are occasionally kill them that are going to post here...? Edit: And please, for the love of God, stop trying to make the scout suit a purely recon class unless you want me to make a feedback thread about how the Heavy should be a purely AV class. This game is meant to have broad spectrums, not limited paths that you -can- branch from but not effectively.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.05 18:20:00 - [23] - Quote Honesty can you have a valid.argument for why a suit that needs to find a place should receive a powerful boost to something you thinks its for
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.05 18:39:00 - [24] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: Honesty can you have a valid.argument for why a suit that needs to find a place should receive a powerful boost to something you thinks its for These.. are.. valid points.. If not all of them, some of them are very valid.. And your argument is a double-edged sword - I'm fighting for what I think the suit should be used for and you're denying that logic for what you think the suit should be used for.. Mine just happens to lean more toward open ended specializations instead of "this suit is used for this". I see a lot of argument to use the Assault Suit for CQC - you're sacrificing the speed you would normally need to get into the thick of combat and in return getting higher defenses. That's a completely valid argument. BUT A scout should be able to use his speed to draw the distance and close in on his target faster than an Assault Suit and reliably use that speed as his defense as he is reducing his chances by not having sufficient armor/shields. Currently, this isn't reliable and I feel that it needs to be improved to some degree. So - please - instead of denying all of my points.. How about we have a legitimate, logical discussion on -why- you feel that Scout suits should -not- be used for CQC. And please don't say Nanofiber Mods because those don't exist as infantry modules. EDIT: Essentially what I am trying to get at is that there should be more than one way to skin a cat. Anyone and their mother can be a sniper in this game - ask the Heavy Suits sporting them.
Mira Adari Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 79	Posted - 2012.10.05 19:29:00 - [25] - Quote I use a scout in CQC. Tried an assault, but he was too slow for my tastes. Couldn't close in fast enough to get the enemy into shotgun range. The viability of a CQC scout depends heavily on how capable your team is, though. You can't really flank opponents who are not currently engaged...but if your team can distract a group of enemies, one or two scouts with a shotgun coming from behind or the sides can take the whole group out easily. Single enemies or groups of two are no problem, as long as they didn't see you first. Play it smart, flee if detected to lay an ambush for pursuers.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.05 19:34:00 - [26] - Quote You assuming thep scout is a cqc fighter and the other suits arnt that's what I have an issue with you can fit a scout for cqc but that's not what they are intended for they are intended to use speed and agility to accomplish their task your asking for benefits specifically for cqc scout that is a subgroup not the scouts themself. The scouts don't need more health their speed stamina and other agility comes at a cost. scouts are fast enough they could use natural bonus to quick draw quick scope and reload though. The scouts not CQC king a assault armed with a smg/SG and the proper fit is. Scouts don't need boost to hack speed they should need it they alrady get there first Scouts however should get a boost to detection directly in front of them.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.05 20:16:00 - [27] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: You assuming thep scout is a cqc fighter and the other suits arnt that's what I have an issue with you can fit a scout for cqc but that's not what they are intended for they are intended to use speed and agility to accomplish their task your asking for benefits specifically for cqc scout that is a subgroup not the scouts themself. The scouts don't need more health their speed stamina and other agility comes at a cost. scouts are fast enough they could use natural bonus to quick draw quick scope and reload though. The scouts not CQC king a assault armed with a smg/SG and the proper fit is. Scouts don't need boost to hack speed they should need it they alrady get there first Scouts however should get a boost to detection directly in front of them. 1.) Wasn't requesting/suggesting/implying more health for the scout suit - ever. I'm simply stating that it is an issue that is in tandem with other issues currently that makes it a very difficult class. 2.) Scout/Assault CQC (as far as which is better) is an opinion. This thread is regarding the CQC Scout's viability by comparison. Yes, assault is king now that hit detection has been fixed and strafe speeds reduced, dramatically more so than the Scout. A think a big issue is that a CQC scout suit has to wait for the enemy to be suppressed before they can get into the fray and do what they're designed to do. In my opinion (holy god for the love of christ please do not jump me just because I have an opinion that disagrees with yours) they should be able to flank the enemy and disrupt their frontline so that friendly forces can advance.
Sodium Snake Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 38	Posted - 2012.10.05 20:30:00 - [28] - Quote The reason there's not many slots for modules is because it's still a Gallente suit; meaning they have an even number of modules. The Caldari proto one (going on how the Caldari assault proto suit is) should have three highs and four lows; four complex profile dampeners/speed enhancers and two complex code-breakers and one sidearm damage mod with an AR/SMG/Shotgun as a primary, nova knives as a secondary, Miasma (smoke grenades not yet implemented) grenades, and finally cloaking equipment; the ultimate assassin fitting. But that's besides the point; the scout suit is meant for recon and stealth hacks/kills/etc, not charging into enemy gunfire with a shotgun expecting to kill people. Stick to the shadows, keep your eyes on the mini-map, and get your knife skills up. Happy scouting.
Auztin Dorriety Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 8	Posted - 2012.10.05 23:29:00 - [29] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Auztin Dorriety wrote: Scouts need to be just what their outfit says Scouts.They should be the sneaky recon type need it be with a Sniper rifle or SMG.If I'm Assault I already have more more armor than you.1v1 you should have a slim chance of killing me up front but great chance of killing me in the back. Not currently viable. As I have previously pointed out, scan mechanics are somewhat broken at the moment and with the Scout's speed severely hit in this build they can't be a good fallback with their unpredictability. Also - I loathe just about anyone who says "Scouts should be the sneaky recon type". That's like saying Heavies -must- be Anti-Vehicle. Heavies are more of a HMG & Mass Driver type deal.If this was a MMORPG like DCUO,Heavies are like your Tank,Logistics is like your Healer,Assault are like your Controller,& Scouts are your DPS.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.06 00:33:00 - [30] - Quote Auztin Dorriety wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Auztin Dorriety wrote: Scouts need to be just what their outfit says Scouts.They should be the sneaky recon type need it be with a Sniper rifle or SMG.If I'm Assault I already have more more armor than you.1v1 you should have a slim chance of killing me up front but great chance of killing me in the back. Not currently viable. As I have previously pointed out, scan mechanics are somewhat broken at the moment and with the Scout's speed severely hit in this build they can't be a good fallback with their unpredictability. Also - I loathe just about anyone who says "Scouts should be the sneaky recon type". That's like saying Heavies -must- be Anti-Vehicle. Heavies are more of a HMG & Mass Driver type deal.If this was a MMORPG like DCUO,Heavies are like your Tank,Logistics is like your Healer,Assault are like your Controller,& Scouts are your DPS. Not much DPS unless you're using an Assault Rifle.



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