DUST Search - [FEEDBACK]Heavies and trying to fix them

Billi Gene wrote:

Mira Adari wrote:

Heavies are doing fine. You just have to know your role. You don't run and gun with a heavy (since he can't really run), you don't do CQC with a heavy (because he is too slow to turn). Use him to kill vehicles (Forge Gun) or deny access to an objective for enemy infantry (HMG). Rely on your squad to keep you clear of CQC Scouts and ARs and on Snipers on your team to supress their Snipers.

Heavies were never meant to be a counter against everything. Gameplay-wise this is just not the way to go (even if such a suit was be very usefull IRL). Heavies are good at mid range, they lose at close range or long range. Rock-Paper-Scissors. You can't have one suit be anti-infantry and anti-vehicle if you want people to use the other suits, too. Just look at the tanks pre-nerf. Everyone was rolling their solopwnmobile and once that didn't work anymore, they whined and moaned, but the tankers who knew what they were doing didn't whine. They still did well. You also don't see the good heavies moan about their effectiveness.

If you want to go toe-to-toe with an AR or Shotgun, use an Assault Suit with an AR. A Heavy is not suited for that playstyle.

actually as it stands, the a55ault suit breaks your rock paper scissors argument.

Heavies need more repair, end of story.... nothing too overpowered, but enough to repair 600 armor in about 2 minutes. Thats about 5hp/second, which is about proto level Repair module. So with a proto repper onboard it would take 1 minute to repair a type 1 heavy suit, definitely not OP imho, esp considering you need proto suits to get 2 low slots (meaning plate and repper.)

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Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2012.10.04 15:37:00 - [1] - Quote So heavies are pretty much worthless now. Well, have been for awhile. I hear they were OP before, I dunno wasn't there. Seems to me the main issue (as was pointed out by someone else in another thread) is survivability from one fight to another. This is actually a bit of a problem as without heavies you have no forge guns and then any shield tanked vehicle is going to be unkillable. So something really has to be done. There's only one thing I can think of, Heavies have to get some kind of boost to their armor repair rate. A huge boost. A module that (like heavy weapons) only they can fit. I'm thinking even something that immobilizes them (with no cooldown, obviously) would be better than what it is now. I can survive a big fight, get some kills but I'm down to 40 armor. Even with the advanced repper that's going to be over 4 minutes before they're repaired all the way. So what are we to do? You have to have a logi with you for the suit to be viable? Not a big fan. Requiring support and teamwork is fine and is an important part of the game. Requiring a very specific type of support constantly or you are dead is not. If a heavies logi bro goes down the heavy is done. Too slow to make it to anyone else, no equipment slot for an uplink, nothing. So you have a super tough unit that is 100% dependent on weak units right next to them at all times? That's 47 different kinds of worthless. The heavies main strength before was defense. Get one defending say a depot with 2 logi bros nearby and they'll spray death on anything the even moves nearby. Until one of the 15 OS/PS's the other team is throwing out there takes them all out. But really, this isn't just me crying about my favorite fit not being as awesome as it once was. No one is going to run heavies because you can't survive in them. If no one runs heavies then you have no forge guns and unless half of your team has swarms people are going to start being able to fit heavily shield vehicles soon that no one is going to be able to kill and then DUST is broken again. TL/DR? - TS/DR
Keradil Ledeuxieme Doomheim 24	Posted - 2012.10.04 15:56:00 - [2] - Quote I agree with most of what you have said.... Heavies are indeed screwed up now. Two builds ago, it used to be that one couldn't go toe-to-toe with a heavy in anything less than another heavy. It sucked initially, but then you realized that was the point; they are powerful anti-infantry and anti-vehicle tanks that move slowly and are therefore primarily defensive. But, people bitched and moaned, so now they can be taken out by assaults and scouts with minimal effort. And even if they don't get killed in those fights, they are nearly dead afterward. I think a heavy only active repper would make a huge difference. Basically make them small, slow moving vehicles.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2012.10.04 16:02:00 - [3] - Quote Well, I wouldn't say they're worthless, but they are a little underpowered maybe. The HMG is actually really good now and CCP shouldn't mess much with it. However, they do need to give heavies a bit more health. If you're running solo, or you know you have no logi backing you, you will have to run in the shield suits (Type-II, B-series, vk.1), and then use the armor ones when you have a logi backing you.
The Polish Hammer Doomheim 373	Posted - 2012.10.04 16:16:00 - [4] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Well, I wouldn't say they're worthless, but they are a little underpowered maybe. The HMG is actually really good now and CCP shouldn't mess much with it. However, they do need to give heavies a bit more health. If you're running solo, or you know you have no logi backing you, you will have to run in the shield suits (Type-II, B-series, vk.1), and then use the armor ones when you have a logi backing you. +1 I've been using the Skinweave heavy (because I don't have to restock it) and it's not necessarily that great in one-on-one combat, but I'll usually make it through the gun fight. So i'd say that with the price that they're set at, yes, they could use a little more AP. Everything else with the heavy suit is basically good to go.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2012.10.04 16:26:00 - [5] - Quote The Polish Hammer wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: Well, I wouldn't say they're worthless, but they are a little underpowered maybe. The HMG is actually really good now and CCP shouldn't mess much with it. However, they do need to give heavies a bit more health. If you're running solo, or you know you have no logi backing you, you will have to run in the shield suits (Type-II, B-series, vk.1), and then use the armor ones when you have a logi backing you. +1 I've been using the Skinweave heavy (because I don't have to restock it) and it's not necessarily that great in one-on-one combat, but I'll usually make it through the gun fight. So i'd say that with the price that they're set at, yes, they could use a little more AP. Everything else with the heavy suit is basically good to go. The Skinweave has the same stats as Militia right? Because the Militia sucks, because it has even less health than the rest of the suits. Once you're able to run in Type-I suits or better you'll actually do a lot better.
Mira Adari Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 79	Posted - 2012.10.04 16:30:00 - [6] - Quote Heavies are doing fine. You just have to know your role. You don't run and gun with a heavy (since he can't really run), you don't do CQC with a heavy (because he is too slow to turn). Use him to kill vehicles (Forge Gun) or deny access to an objective for enemy infantry (HMG). Rely on your squad to keep you clear of CQC Scouts and ARs and on Snipers on your team to supress their Snipers. Heavies were never meant to be a counter against everything. Gameplay-wise this is just not the way to go (even if such a suit was be very usefull IRL). Heavies are good at mid range, they lose at close range or long range. Rock-Paper-Scissors. You can't have one suit be anti-infantry and anti-vehicle if you want people to use the other suits, too. Just look at the tanks pre-nerf. Everyone was rolling their solopwnmobile and once that didn't work anymore, they whined and moaned, but the tankers who knew what they were doing didn't whine. They still did well. You also don't see the good heavies moan about their effectiveness. If you want to go toe-to-toe with an AR or Shotgun, use an Assault Suit with an AR. A Heavy is not suited for that playstyle.
Vickers S Grunt Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 67	Posted - 2012.10.04 16:35:00 - [7] - Quote HMG is god in cqb now it is the only thing that scares me on the battle field . If i see one coming then i make every effort to be as far away as possible . I would rather fight 2 guys with any other gun .
Whispercrow Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 102	Posted - 2012.10.04 17:44:00 - [8] - Quote Being able to dominate vehicles with that stupid Forge gun is enough reason to despise them. They make amusing snipers, though. Unless they're using a Charge Rifle and hit you in the head, you can take a head shot and pop the little squirrely bastich right in the face. Works great when peeps are camping your spawn. Still, what I'd like to see is an "Advanced Armor Repper" that works similar to the Armor Reppers that vehicles have. Big restoration chunks, but it's on a cooldown. You can use it right before a fight for the extra HP, or use it afterward to restore your big chunk of armor.
Goric Rumis Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 80	Posted - 2012.10.04 17:58:00 - [9] - Quote Sounds like heavies are exactly what I always wanted them to be. Too bad I haven't had much time to play during this build yet.
Necrodermis GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 460	Posted - 2012.10.04 18:26:00 - [10] - Quote heavies seem to be pretty good right now. sense they added actual armor resistances to the armor. can't wait for everyone to start calling them OP as they fit armor hardeners

Titus Stryker Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 35	Posted - 2012.10.04 18:39:00 - [11] - Quote Mira Adari wrote: Heavies are doing fine. You just have to know your role. You don't run and gun with a heavy (since he can't really run), you don't do CQC with a heavy (because he is too slow to turn). Use him to kill vehicles (Forge Gun) or deny access to an objective for enemy infantry (HMG). Rely on your squad to keep you clear of CQC Scouts and ARs and on Snipers on your team to supress their Snipers. Heavies were never meant to be a counter against everything. Gameplay-wise this is just not the way to go (even if such a suit was be very usefull IRL). Heavies are good at mid range, they lose at close range or long range. Rock-Paper-Scissors. You can't have one suit be anti-infantry and anti-vehicle if you want people to use the other suits, too. Just look at the tanks pre-nerf. Everyone was rolling their solopwnmobile and once that didn't work anymore, they whined and moaned, but the tankers who knew what they were doing didn't whine. They still did well. You also don't see the good heavies moan about their effectiveness. If you want to go toe-to-toe with an AR or Shotgun, use an Assault Suit with an AR. A Heavy is not suited for that playstyle. agreed, I usually do just fine. You just need to understand that you have a giant heavy machine gun, you are a very slow character with limited mobility, just need to learn to play at a different speed/mentality.
Illuminaughty-696 Omega Risk Control Services 203	Posted - 2012.10.04 18:49:00 - [12] - Quote Mira Adari wrote: Heavies are doing fine. You just have to know your role. You don't run and gun with a heavy (since he can't really run), you don't do CQC with a heavy (because he is too slow to turn). Use him to kill vehicles (Forge Gun) or deny access to an objective for enemy infantry (HMG). Rely on your squad to keep you clear of CQC Scouts and ARs and on Snipers on your team to supress their Snipers. Heavies were never meant to be a counter against everything. Gameplay-wise this is just not the way to go (even if such a suit was be very usefull IRL). Heavies are good at mid range, they lose at close range or long range. Rock-Paper-Scissors. You can't have one suit be anti-infantry and anti-vehicle if you want people to use the other suits, too. Just look at the tanks pre-nerf. Everyone was rolling their solopwnmobile and once that didn't work anymore, they whined and moaned, but the tankers who knew what they were doing didn't whine. They still did well. You also don't see the good heavies moan about their effectiveness. If you want to go toe-to-toe with an AR or Shotgun, use an Assault Suit with an AR. A Heavy is not suited for that playstyle. This. Just to say it, being a heavy doesn't work well when you solo. You're too slow. I will outrun you and come back when my shields recover. I get wtfbbqpwned whenever I go toe to toe with a heavy that sees me as I see him (or her) that uses a HMG - and I should. Just don't expect heavies to be solo beasts. You need a logi or a scout/assault in support. Or if you play a scout or an assault, hide behind the heavy, draw the enemy back to your big, beefy friend. Know your role, don't try to run around as a heavy with a shotgun in an open field and expect to accomplish anything. Play the role as it is meant to be played. If Heavies could do everything and beat everything else everyone would play one. They were worthless for a bit a build or two ago, but they're much better, not worse now. Tweakage is always needed, but calling them worthless is plain wrong. Edit: Also, people need to give this build more time. I've got a little over a million SP. SP cap is hitting hard and few if any peeps have the sp invested in their builds for us to have any idea what is and is not working at this stage. It's been three days since a complete character wipe. Be a beta tester and test more before declaring an entire class of character worthless.
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2012.10.04 20:22:00 - [13] - Quote This points everyone has made are valid points, I'll give you that. But I'm afraid they don't really address the issue I have with them currently. Their survivability in a firefight is right where it needs to be and everything is just fine there. My problem is what happens when you die? Does everyone other me always get a small map and a team that always puts out uplinks constantly? The fact is if you're on a map with random spawns unless you come in right near a big a chunk of your team you are dead in the water. No one said anything about "running and gunning" in a heavy. I'll just take running. And I don't mean coming up on 3 or 4 enemies and being able to disappear like a scout or even throw out some rounds from you AR while you try and get out of there. I mean I'm trying to get back to my team/squad while taking potshots constantly, not even firing back and because they lack the ability to heal quickly enough [i][after/i] the fight that the other 3 suits have, eventually I'll get taken out by a single pistol shot or 1 out of the 15 rounds from an AR someone blindfired in my direction. Heavies require too many ifs to play, making them by far the most limited class. And I know someone has to be last and that's fine but I feel the gap is far too substantial. The last thing this game needs is a class that no one plays. It will just look really, really bad. Edit: Also, I agree I shouldn't have said worthless. They're not worthless. Too strong a word. What they are is far too limited to be a viable main class. And yes, now is actually a pretty good time to bring this up. Unless we're going to tell new players "Hey welcome to DUST. Yea, sure...play that class. It will suck for a while and you'll die constantly and the SP cap will kick in meaning you're not gonna get that better gear you need to survive for awhile. But just don't play as much! Then you won't lose as much ISK!" This game has only 4 classes, we don't need one of them to pay off only in the long run.
Mira Adari Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 79	Posted - 2012.10.04 21:05:00 - [14] - Quote Ambush is a difficult matter. You have to be lucky with the spawn, but that is regardless of class. If your spawn is bad, you're toast. Without a drop uplink and a little group of friendlies around it, I would not field a heavy on an ambush map...but then again I haven't played one single Ambush map since yesterday's downtime...
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.10.05 07:43:00 - [15] - Quote dont forget Heavies are still waiting to get their base HP back. They're nerf but it shouldnt stay like this forever.
Billi Gene Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 130	Posted - 2012.10.05 09:06:00 - [16] - Quote Mira Adari wrote: Heavies are doing fine. You just have to know your role. You don't run and gun with a heavy (since he can't really run), you don't do CQC with a heavy (because he is too slow to turn). Use him to kill vehicles (Forge Gun) or deny access to an objective for enemy infantry (HMG). Rely on your squad to keep you clear of CQC Scouts and ARs and on Snipers on your team to supress their Snipers. Heavies were never meant to be a counter against everything. Gameplay-wise this is just not the way to go (even if such a suit was be very usefull IRL). Heavies are good at mid range, they lose at close range or long range. Rock-Paper-Scissors. You can't have one suit be anti-infantry and anti-vehicle if you want people to use the other suits, too. Just look at the tanks pre-nerf. Everyone was rolling their solopwnmobile and once that didn't work anymore, they whined and moaned, but the tankers who knew what they were doing didn't whine. They still did well. You also don't see the good heavies moan about their effectiveness. If you want to go toe-to-toe with an AR or Shotgun, use an Assault Suit with an AR. A Heavy is not suited for that playstyle. actually as it stands, the a55ault suit breaks your rock paper scissors argument. Heavies need more repair, end of story.... nothing too overpowered, but enough to repair 600 armor in about 2 minutes. Thats about 5hp/second, which is about proto level Repair module. So with a proto repper onboard it would take 1 minute to repair a type 1 heavy suit, definitely not OP imho, esp considering you need proto suits to get 2 low slots (meaning plate and repper.)
Mira Adari Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 79	Posted - 2012.10.05 10:39:00 - [17] - Quote Billi Gene wrote: Mira Adari wrote: Heavies are doing fine. You just have to know your role. You don't run and gun with a heavy (since he can't really run), you don't do CQC with a heavy (because he is too slow to turn). Use him to kill vehicles (Forge Gun) or deny access to an objective for enemy infantry (HMG). Rely on your squad to keep you clear of CQC Scouts and ARs and on Snipers on your team to supress their Snipers. Heavies were never meant to be a counter against everything. Gameplay-wise this is just not the way to go (even if such a suit was be very usefull IRL). Heavies are good at mid range, they lose at close range or long range. Rock-Paper-Scissors. You can't have one suit be anti-infantry and anti-vehicle if you want people to use the other suits, too. Just look at the tanks pre-nerf. Everyone was rolling their solopwnmobile and once that didn't work anymore, they whined and moaned, but the tankers who knew what they were doing didn't whine. They still did well. You also don't see the good heavies moan about their effectiveness. If you want to go toe-to-toe with an AR or Shotgun, use an Assault Suit with an AR. A Heavy is not suited for that playstyle. actually as it stands, the a55ault suit breaks your rock paper scissors argument. Heavies need more repair, end of story.... nothing too overpowered, but enough to repair 600 armor in about 2 minutes. Thats about 5hp/second, which is about proto level Repair module. So with a proto repper onboard it would take 1 minute to repair a type 1 heavy suit, definitely not OP imho, esp considering you need proto suits to get 2 low slots (meaning plate and repper.) Assault suits can easily be beaten by a scout suit in CQC or a HMG Heavy. But ARs are currently a little bit OP. Their range is too big.
Vexen Krios Doomheim 95	Posted - 2012.10.05 11:09:00 - [18] - Quote How are the AR's range to much? Im not getting no where near the range with my tactical as i was last build. what people aren't understanding is that if you skill the sharpshooter skill with any weapon....it increases that weapons range. AR's are not OP. The tactical may be OP cuz its bugged to full auto. but the range on them are fine. as for heavys i do agree that they are under powered, I wanna have to yell to my team when i see a heavy on the field and correlate a team based attack on it. Not make it unkillable but a bit harder to kill.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.05 13:02:00 - [19] - Quote I think heavys should be tougher its not like they can chase you.


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