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knight of 6
26
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Posted - 2012.09.24 01:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'd like to try out the forge gun. but I don't want to skill in it just to find out I don't like it. every gun in the game should have a militia variation to encourage players to experiment with them and find awesome unique fits that match their play style. choosing the level in something is a big commitment (as it should be), so levelling in something you find out you hate is a huge waste. naturally the solution is to have militia gear that doesn't require any skills. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
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Posted - 2012.09.24 01:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think there should be militia versions for all weapons, just so people can get a taste of the weapon before committing skill points to them. It would increase weapon use variety among the new people. |
Typo Name
78
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Posted - 2012.09.24 01:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think that in this case, just a "free testing area" would be the better idea. ATM, forge guns, mass drivers, and HMGs (may be missing something) are the only thing non-militia.
If the militia versions were weak enough to justify being free, you wouldn't get the true feel of those weapons. If they were closer to the current weakest ones, they would be too easy to skill into. |
Velvet Overkill
104
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Posted - 2012.09.24 02:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
A better idea would be to have a testing mode where we can build fits and try everything. It that mode we should be able to make prototype fits of things we don't own/skilled into. Also maybe have basic AI to test weapons on. In that mode there should be stats of everything going on to the side of the screen. |
knight of 6
26
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Posted - 2012.09.24 21:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
or the militia variation could be like militia vehicles were you still have to buy every one you use but you don't need any skills... |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
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Posted - 2012.10.08 00:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Since there are no militia BPOs on the market, there is no reason to not have militia versions of everything. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
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Posted - 2012.11.26 19:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
Militia forge gun (though severely weaker), militia laser rifle, mlilitia mass driver. militia HMG, militia scrambler rifle (when it comes), militia plasma cannon (when it comes), militia flaylock pistol (when it comes). |
Doktor Worm
BetaMax.
8
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Posted - 2012.11.26 20:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
Easy solution, skill to level one on an alt and have a play. If you like it skill it on your main. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.11.26 21:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Based on my testing most weapons (the notable exception under the current build being the AR line, with a lessor nod going to the shotgun line) don't show their true potential and value until you've really skilled into them. Running proto sniper rifles with top skills isn't the same as running a militia sniper rifle without the sniper specific skills to support it (nor should it be).
Militia weapons should be present and they should give you a feel for the nature of using the weapon. A militia Forge Gun should have some utility against a Militia HAV comparable to a Proto Forge vs a Proto HAV. Learning basics of how a weapon shoots, zooms, reloads, fires. What movement is like with that weapon, etc. Those are all key player UI elements to use of the weapon and there's really no reason why use of the AR or Shotgun should require fewer SP invested than use of an equivalent meta level Mass Driver or other niche weapon.
Introducing militia variants would certainly require some balance effort so that they're not either A)useless or B) a more viable option than the current Meta one version of the weapon. But I'm fully confident that CCP is capable of the iterations needed to fine tune that.
0.02 ISK Cross |
Overlord Zero
Doomheim
75
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Posted - 2012.11.27 13:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Based on my testing most weapons (the notable exception under the current build being the AR line, with a lessor nod going to the shotgun line) don't show their true potential and value until you've really skilled into them. Running proto sniper rifles with top skills isn't the same as running a militia sniper rifle without the sniper specific skills to support it (nor should it be).
Militia weapons should be present and they should give you a feel for the nature of using the weapon. A militia Forge Gun should have some utility against a Militia HAV comparable to a Proto Forge vs a Proto HAV. Learning basics of how a weapon shoots, zooms, reloads, fires. What movement is like with that weapon, etc. Those are all key player UI elements to use of the weapon and there's really no reason why use of the AR or Shotgun should require fewer SP invested than use of an equivalent meta level Mass Driver or other niche weapon.
Introducing militia variants would certainly require some balance effort so that they're not either A)useless or B) a more viable option than the current Meta one version of the weapon. But I'm fully confident that CCP is capable of the iterations needed to fine tune that.
0.02 ISK Cross I think the current method they use for keeping militia items from being overused would work just as well for the AV & Flux grenades, laser rifles, HMG's etc. Up the CPU and PG requirements. Have you looked at the CPU/PG difference between a level 1 repair tool and a militia one recently? iNSAne amount of difference. Do this for militia weapons we don't have yet, and i believe the lack of extra mods would even it all out. |
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
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Posted - 2012.12.04 17:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
I would still like it still. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
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Posted - 2012.12.09 06:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Anyone else want? |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
389
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Posted - 2012.12.09 06:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Without a doubt this is necessary |
Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
742
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Posted - 2012.12.09 18:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
No thanks. People will just use them instead of actually skilling into certain weapons. Why bother going into Forge Gun skills if you can use a Militia one? I mean, if you make them with half the damage, the majority of players who were interested will think "Wow this is awful, I don't want to use these forge guns" yet you make them closer to the originals, nobody will bother using the proper Forge Guns.. I know I wouldn't. It's why I use a Militia Swarm Launcher with 2x Damage Mods, does just as good as the other Swarm Launchers and means I never have to skill up in them.
Give people a VR Room where they can set weapons they wish to use against an AI Opponent (So Moving LAV, Dropship, Tank, Heavy, Scout, Assault etc) |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
136
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Posted - 2012.12.10 23:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
I'd side with Cross Atu. Somehow this sort of thing should be implemented, but w/o the skills you don't see the whole value of it.
Laser rifles need that sharpshooter proficiency to max their usefulness. It increases damage, keeps the enemy from getting closer, and alows a you to choose a stronger position for battle. The same applies to the skills of all other weapons.
A testing ground would be nice. |
Sytonis Auran
Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION
52
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Posted - 2012.12.11 00:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
While militia is a good way of people seeing if they like before they invest skill points. But, it can also lead to problems too. Remember the update with militia vehicles which were BPO? How about the OP HAVs posts where infantry were relying on militia swarms? When you balance higher meta items against militia, feedback isn't good. |
Reimus Klinsman
BetaMax.
320
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Posted - 2012.12.11 08:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
I'd have loved a militia Forge gun before I put SP into it. Turns out that I like using it despite how unprofitable it is to use. They also need militia varients of the weapon varients... Like Tac AR, Burst AR, etc. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
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Posted - 2012.12.16 23:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
I don't think there should be militia versions of variants, variants give incentive to invest skill points. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.12.17 03:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
knight of 6 wrote:I'd like to try out the forge gun. but I don't want to skill in it just to find out I don't like it. every gun in the game should have a militia variation to encourage players to experiment with them and find awesome unique fits that match their play style. choosing the level in something is a big commitment (as it should be), so levelling in something you find out you hate is a huge waste. naturally the solution is to have militia gear that doesn't require any skills. NOPE. Not only no but hell no. I say this only because it sounds like you're suggesting this for launch, and that would be a terrible idea. As CCP has said many times, the more gear you can get unlimited quantities of with one purchase, the worse off the market is. I know everyone is constantly saying this game isn't EVE, but if you want to use a Forge Gun, you should have to skill for it. Same with any other higher level or Heavy weapon. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 04:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:knight of 6 wrote:I'd like to try out the forge gun. but I don't want to skill in it just to find out I don't like it. every gun in the game should have a militia variation to encourage players to experiment with them and find awesome unique fits that match their play style. choosing the level in something is a big commitment (as it should be), so levelling in something you find out you hate is a huge waste. naturally the solution is to have militia gear that doesn't require any skills. NOPE. Not only no but hell no. I say this only because it sounds like you're suggesting this for launch, and that would be a terrible idea. As CCP has said many times, the more gear you can get unlimited quantities of with one purchase, the worse off the market is. I know everyone is constantly saying this game isn't EVE, but if you want to use a Forge Gun, you should have to skill for it. Same with any other higher level or Heavy weapon.
Militia gear =/= unlimited quantities. I understand that cheap forge guns would be bad since vehicles are expensive, but it can have its power be severely reduced (like a militia forge gun can do half the damage of a standard). Even if that's still not acceptable, there is no reason why we shouldn't have militia anti-personnel weapons like laser rifles and mass drivers. |
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Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.12.17 04:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:knight of 6 wrote:I'd like to try out the forge gun. but I don't want to skill in it just to find out I don't like it. every gun in the game should have a militia variation to encourage players to experiment with them and find awesome unique fits that match their play style. choosing the level in something is a big commitment (as it should be), so levelling in something you find out you hate is a huge waste. naturally the solution is to have militia gear that doesn't require any skills. NOPE. Not only no but hell no. I say this only because it sounds like you're suggesting this for launch, and that would be a terrible idea. As CCP has said many times, the more gear you can get unlimited quantities of with one purchase, the worse off the market is. I know everyone is constantly saying this game isn't EVE, but if you want to use a Forge Gun, you should have to skill for it. Same with any other higher level or Heavy weapon. Militia gear =/= unlimited quantities. I understand that cheap forge guns would be bad since vehicles are expensive, but it can have its power be severely reduced (like a militia forge gun can do half the damage of a standard). Even if that's still not acceptable, there is no reason why we shouldn't have militia anti-personnel weapons like laser rifles and mass drivers. Virtually all of the infantry Militia gear has a BPO that you can buy that allows you unlimited usage of that asset. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 04:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:knight of 6 wrote:I'd like to try out the forge gun. but I don't want to skill in it just to find out I don't like it. every gun in the game should have a militia variation to encourage players to experiment with them and find awesome unique fits that match their play style. choosing the level in something is a big commitment (as it should be), so levelling in something you find out you hate is a huge waste. naturally the solution is to have militia gear that doesn't require any skills. NOPE. Not only no but hell no. I say this only because it sounds like you're suggesting this for launch, and that would be a terrible idea. As CCP has said many times, the more gear you can get unlimited quantities of with one purchase, the worse off the market is. I know everyone is constantly saying this game isn't EVE, but if you want to use a Forge Gun, you should have to skill for it. Same with any other higher level or Heavy weapon. Militia gear =/= unlimited quantities. I understand that cheap forge guns would be bad since vehicles are expensive, but it can have its power be severely reduced (like a militia forge gun can do half the damage of a standard). Even if that's still not acceptable, there is no reason why we shouldn't have militia anti-personnel weapons like laser rifles and mass drivers. Virtually all of the infantry Militia gear has a BPO that you can buy that allows you unlimited usage of that asset.
Yeah, but that is AUR, and I doubt CCP has some mandatory rule about making AUR variants for all militia items. |
Maken Tosch
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
1594
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Posted - 2012.12.17 05:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
A testing ground is a better option rather than just slap a bunch of militia variants in there.
First, a testing ground in which you get the feel of prototype weapons with all necessary skills applied strictly for testing purposes where there are no gains except game play experience. This way, players can get a feel of these weapons and start appreciating the true potential of these weapons, suits, vehicles, etc. before deciding which to invest in.
Eve Online doesn't have a training ground but it does have a humongous set of offline tools available in which your can experiment with advanced fits before even playing the buy orders. The best part about these tools is that you can input API into them to link your character to these tools and experiment with the stats to see what effect you can achieve with level 5 skills. Some of these tools even have a planner to schedule which skills to train into and I guess these tools more than make up for the lack of training grounds for the eve capsuleers.
As others have pointed out, militia variants for every weapon can present a problem. They are too weak to give players the true feel of the impact of their prototype brethren but you can't make them too strong that players start putting down the protos for good. Personally, I see militias as nothing more than helping you recuperate your ISK once you run out of proto fits and can't afford anymore. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.12.17 06:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:knight of 6 wrote:I'd like to try out the forge gun. but I don't want to skill in it just to find out I don't like it. every gun in the game should have a militia variation to encourage players to experiment with them and find awesome unique fits that match their play style. choosing the level in something is a big commitment (as it should be), so levelling in something you find out you hate is a huge waste. naturally the solution is to have militia gear that doesn't require any skills. NOPE. Not only no but hell no. I say this only because it sounds like you're suggesting this for launch, and that would be a terrible idea. As CCP has said many times, the more gear you can get unlimited quantities of with one purchase, the worse off the market is. I know everyone is constantly saying this game isn't EVE, but if you want to use a Forge Gun, you should have to skill for it. Same with any other higher level or Heavy weapon. Militia gear =/= unlimited quantities. I understand that cheap forge guns would be bad since vehicles are expensive, but it can have its power be severely reduced (like a militia forge gun can do half the damage of a standard). Even if that's still not acceptable, there is no reason why we shouldn't have militia anti-personnel weapons like laser rifles and mass drivers.
I honestly don't see Militia Forge Guns as a threat to a HAV (granted a Militia HAV can be taken out by a Militia Forge Gun but that's a given and so can a missile LAV, AV grenades,etc.). Having played a great deal with a basic Forge Gun I can say with certainty that they're not a real threat to anything beyond Milita, as an example last night I hit a (non-proto) shield HAV with 4 Forge Gun shots and only took 50% of it's shields. Add to that increased PG/CPU requirements, standard suit cost et al and you really don't have anything game breaking.
I still think that exposure allows for a greater chance of diversification, and diversification is good for the long term health of the game. Additionally if (as Overlord suggests) the balancing is done by increasing PG/CPU requirements that can elicit another benefit. It will naturally push new players to develop their support skills, and their critical thinking when it comes to fitting choices. Both of those are also quite positive for long term game health and player retention.
Then there's the thorny issue of Militia BPOs. Again I think this issue has been overblown, last I checked (which granted was prior to this build so maybe CCPs changed it, but I don't know why they would) the Militia BPOs had higher PG/CPU requirements than the same Militia item in a non-BPO form. In such a state if an AUR purchased Militia BPO has any profoundly destabilizing effect on the economy that would indicate a much more significant problem. The problem being that the progression value of higher Meta items fails to provide worthwhile utility over the Militia version even with the support skills required to unlock those items. If the proper utility incentive is lacking to that degree both game balance and the in game economy are going to suffer when we go live, and I for one would rather see that now during beta then after launch. Certainly propagation of high Meta BPOs is a profoundly detrimental idea to the health of the game, but the addition of a few niche mods/weapons when BPOs for the most used weapons and gear are already present? I simply don't see how that can realistically be harmful to the game.
0.02 ISK Cross
ps ~ Just because otherwise someone's likely to bring this up, none of the proposed additional Militia items would directly benefit my game play as I already have/use gear better than they would be. If there were ever any BPOs made of them I might spend some AUR to pick those up but that's more a function of my OCD collectors impulse than it is any desire to revert to lower quality fits. Point being the above isn't presented for personal gain but rather for the overall health of the game.
EDIT: Regarding the Test Ground, it would be a nice place to work out fittings and builds however there are a few flaws I see with it. Firstly there's setting, in New Eden thus far there's very little in the way of "no risk" activities and I've doubts that CCP (or large parts of the player base for that matter) would want to change that because there's no getting around calls for such a thing in EVE if it's added to D514. Second and more importantly there's the question of development resources, it's going to be much less resource intensive to plug in the stats for a militia version of a few given weapons than to code an additional area/mode with all attendant server support, skill toggling (meaning having the game track where you are when deciding the skills applied for equipping gear, creating fittings etc). Currently I'm ambivalent as to actually including such a thing in Dust, but it certainly isn't the easier solution for beta testing (after all if Milita versions are actually detrimental CCP will notice and remove them before live, that's why we beta test) |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
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Posted - 2013.01.11 21:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
More militia guns would really help make a more varied battlefield. |
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