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Sees-Too-Much
332
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Posted - 2012.09.04 19:17:00 -
[31] - Quote
Any of you guys ever play Starcraft 2? There's a unit called The Immortal that can't take more than 20 damage per hit. I don't know if that could be balanced, but it'd ne an interesting idea. |
Chompas
BetaMax.
5
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Posted - 2012.09.04 19:18:00 -
[32] - Quote
i-Śm just not very comfotable with that idea. How do you want to explain that a Vehicle mounted Weapon does less damage than a handheld weapon? |
Kesi Raae Kaae
Much Crying Old Experts
40
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Posted - 2012.09.04 19:20:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ancillary Shield Extender - Boosts maximum health massively for a few seconds when activated but has massive cool-down.
Actually, that's a terrible idea, but the turret resist bonus and splash resist module ideas are pretty good ones. |
Kelshaw Xu
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
65
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Posted - 2012.09.04 19:23:00 -
[34] - Quote
Why does it have to be a module? the suits do not yet have passive bonuses. Maybe the heavy dropsuits could have it as their passive bonus? This way we can't have scouts, assault and logi wanting splash resistance too.
I had expected passive bonuses on the dropsuits and vehicles from the start. Then noticed not all the equipment is in the beta. So I guessed they left them out till beta would be more refined. |
Chao Wolf
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
209
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Posted - 2012.09.04 19:30:00 -
[35] - Quote
How about making a stat bonus from the heavy skill tree giving you 5% dam resistance per lvl? And personally I wouldn't have an issue making the heavy d-suit skill a 10x skill to help compensate for the buff.
Edit: left out important part |
Knarf Black
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
397
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Posted - 2012.09.04 19:44:00 -
[36] - Quote
Honestly I don't even know why we are discussing this anymore. The whole infantry vs. vehicle balance of this game needs to be rethought from the ground up, because it seems like CCP has been designing this game under the assumption that every match would involve perfectly symmetrical teams of infantry and vehicles.
Everybody tosses around the whole "perfect imbalance" idea, but more and more I see fittings that are either underpowered or only vulnerable against their mirror images (Tanks, snipers, SMG scouts). Meanwhile, I can scarcely convince myself to spend a dime, as I have no vehicle skills and HAVs are the only worthwhile investment. What's the point of dropping tons of ISK and SP on higher tier suits and modules when my survivability barely increases?
Assuming beta history repeats itself, CCP's eventual response will be to add a restocking cost to or otherwise gimp militia gear to try and wean us off it. (Instead of giving us a reason to want to move beyond the free stuff.) |
Drake Lyons
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
209
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Posted - 2012.09.04 19:53:00 -
[37] - Quote
Part of the issue is the abundance of ambush games, in which a character must be prepared for an encounter with large amounts of enemy infantry, but will probably die even before the vehicle on field sees them.
In other words, when playing ambush, it's a bad bet to load out for AV. There is a far greater chance you'll be facing someone in an assault suit with an AR than single-handedly taking out a tank, making it to a SD, and then refitting for AR without being taken down by either the vehicle or the infantry threat...and most likely the infantry.
In other other words, most people would rather take a couple of tank deaths and trade them for several infantry kills than load out in AV only to get torn apart by grouped AR fire when all you've got is an SMG.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
583
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Posted - 2012.09.04 20:27:00 -
[38] - Quote
Chao Wolf wrote:How about making a stat bonus from the heavy skill tree giving you 5% dam resistance per lvl? And personally I wouldn't have an issue making the heavy d-suit skill a 10x skill to help compensate for the buff.
Edit: left out important part
Sort of what I was going bring up.
Lets deepen this idea a bit, give the heavy either a passive role bonus, or preferably a resistance to the turrets per level of Amarr Heavy suit. It allows people to gain that bonus with some work, instead of just handing them the full benefit.
Honestly all suits should have a passive bonus of some sort per level... like Logistics gets +5% repair rate per level of Logistics suits. Right now really people can't run with Proto gear, so those higher levels of dropsuit skills are wasted...make them still an improvement no matter what grade suit you use yeah?
But more on topic, I'll agree that heavies are exceptionally easy to kill with railguns since they drag their heavy asses around the field, they can't really jump or avoid a railgun shot like a scout can (Scouts are honestly the best tank killers in my opinion, but that's just me). Im not TOTALLY sold on the idea of turret damage resistance, however I think something should be done to raise their survivability against vehicles slightly. |
Ignatius Crumwald
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
475
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Posted - 2012.09.04 20:29:00 -
[39] - Quote
I have spent more time as AV though all builds than anyone and trained tank skills to learn how to better kill them. The tank balance was fine early in this build vs. AV. The ONLY thing that made it seem unbalanced in favor of AV was the cost of tanks, changes to AV grenade behavior, and the Nanohives supplying those grenades.
A proper tank should have support - just as an AV team is expected to have support. I would rather err on the side of the less potentially OP balance and make it so that a small team of AV can take out an unsupported tank. An AV team is infinitely more fragile than a well fit tank. We can't treat tanks as some sort of Raid mid-boss that needs clan level coordination to take down and expect anyone to have an enjoyable gaming experience. This game will be dead in a month with nothing but tank drivers who spend no money to keep the PvP side of things going.
One of two things should be done in the short term - either lower the price on tanks and put AV back where it was, or double the SP cost to train the relevant tank skills so that they move more in line with the balanced training infantry must do - because while you can train straight Vehicle and be successful, training straight AV is nearly impossible.
Let's go one further beyond the obvious game breaking imbalance that was put in by the AV nerf and look at the business side of things. A tanker that doesn't ever die in his tank is much less likely to purchase AUR than the more fragile AV infantry counter part. The number of successful uses of AUR based AV weaponry needs to go up or no one will ever bother buying them just to leave real money on the battlefield time after time. If the balance keeps moving too far in favor of tanks, those who purchase these items will be much less likely to put real money at risk to eliminate someone with essentially no skin in the game monetarily and may either opt to take the same road or simply move on from the game altogether.
To be honest, personally I'm moving closer and closer to the latter the longer this "temporary AV nerf" goes on. My play hours have dropped significantly and I definitely would be hard pressed to invest any money in the game from here on in. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
583
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Posted - 2012.09.04 21:38:00 -
[40] - Quote
Honestly I don't think much of the income Dust generates will come from AUR weapons and whatnot. What's going to sell the most I think is Active Boosters, Passive Boosters, UVT, Skill Spikes, Skill Clusters, and any sort of vanity BPO items. I mean sure people will buy disposable AUR items, but for me, playing infantry or tank is not going to make me any more likely to buy disposable AUR items that I'd be using on a regular basis.
If anything, people are probably more likely to buy AUR items for tanks since they're actually a bit better, they're just expensive. |
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pjwarrior long
D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire
17
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Posted - 2012.09.04 21:41:00 -
[41] - Quote
+1 great idea
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pjwarrior long
D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire
17
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Posted - 2012.09.04 21:42:00 -
[42] - Quote
Nova Knife wrote:So... I don't think it's a secret that I have been using tanks and dropships a lot this build. I've also spent a fair time running AV, so I was pondering ways to make both sides more fun. Right now, your typical AV encounter when driving a HAV ends up one of a couple ways :
- Most commonly, a group of the enemy team will switch to using the totally harmless militia shock starter fit. When seen, the heavy is blapped by the HAV which merrily continues its bloody rampage
- You get a couple very loosely or uncoordinated people with non militia AV weapons peppering the HAV, forcing you to relocate and recover, no serious threat, probably killing a couple people while you flee.
- You come across a well coordinated group of prototype AV users. Your tank is probably going to die.
- The other team has a tank (Or more than one) This generally comes down to the AV units on both sides and how decent at aiming/driving each player in the HAV is. At least one of the tanks is going to die. Circumstances described generally dictate this.
Your typical AV encounter as a AV infantry when facing an HAV
- You've got nothing but the militia shock starter fit for AV (Maybe tweaked to add AV grenades). Very few people on your team helping you. You die a lot whenever the tank sees you.
- You've got decent AV fit but your team isn't supporting you. You can make the HAV flee by yourself, but without excellent positioning and/or the HAV driver derping... It's usually going to get away. But if it gets a clear shot at you, you're gonna die a lot.
- You're with a group of four friends in your squad, and you're all decked out for vehicle murderin'. You pepper the HAV nonstop and can likely kill it. Without using cover/hills to your advantage to avoid splash/direct damage you're probably going to take heavy losses in your squad while killing the tank still, but a flawless destruction without losing anyone in your squad is possible.
Now, this seems like this is how things should be. HAV's have an edge against infantry but are killable. The main problem is, that during game design CCP probably didn't account for the fact a lot of players would be well... stupid. On paper the current stuff all works fine. But in practice, you've got HAV's rolling around relatively unopposed for the main reason that most people simply do not know how to kill them and cannot work as a team to do so. So where does this leave us? If we buff AV weapons, a coordinated squad will just slaughter a HAV without it having a chance. If we nerf HAV's, it's mostly the same thing. In a perfect world, we wouldn't need to change a thing and tanks would be far from 'immortal' as-is. So, I have a slightly different solution. A massive bulk of my kills as an HAV driver is heavy suits. They are supposed to be able to stand toe to toe with enemy vehicles, but they're nothing more than fodder. I'm proposing a massive resistance buff to the heavy only against vehicle main and secondary turrets. This effectively increases their hitpoints against vehicles without making them impossible for infantry to counter. All the while, it reinforces the heavy suit's role as an anti-vehicle platform while still making them easily killed by infantry without teammates to support them. I'm thinking the heavy should be able to survive at least one direct railgun blast. Splash damage from missiles and railguns should do practically nothing to a heavy, but enough to add up over prolonged engagements. This change alone would massively change the flow of a game, as a squad of heavies would be able to pretty effectively hold off or kill a HAV without those heavies being easily blapped. Without the tank having infantry support to handle the heavies, it would be at a disadvantage. More team play is good. Making the militia starter AV fit not harmless would also be good. What do you guys think?
+1 great idea |
The Polish Hammer
Doomheim
373
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Posted - 2012.09.04 21:54:00 -
[43] - Quote
My only thought here is how they will make it apply to vehicles only. How is the increased damage resistance only applicable to vehicles and not to everything else? As an AV guy, I support the idea, but just wondering. |
STB-LURCHASAURUS EV
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
173
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Posted - 2012.09.04 22:05:00 -
[44] - Quote
splash resist mods |
Goric Rumis
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
80
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Posted - 2012.09.04 22:07:00 -
[45] - Quote
I like the idea of using a mod. I wouldn't say it should be automatic on the heavy suit. This way if you're putting together an HMG suit... (I'll wait, get all the laughing out of your system.) If you're putting together an HMG suit, you'll be able to choose mods that are appropriate to its function.
Either that, or have a more complex skill structure where you can spec into AV suits after you hit, say, level 3 Heavy Dropsuits, and start fitting Heavy AV dropsuits. Or for that matter, both options. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
583
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Posted - 2012.09.04 22:56:00 -
[46] - Quote
STB-LURCHASAURUS EV wrote:splash resist mods
Not really useful for the issue at hand, which is Large Railguns vs Heavies, which are easy to hit directly. |
STB-LURCHASAURUS EV
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
173
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Posted - 2012.09.04 23:01:00 -
[47] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:STB-LURCHASAURUS EV wrote:splash resist mods Not really useful for the issue at hand, which is Large Railguns vs Heavies, which are easy to hit directly.
so you gonna nerf sniper rifles too? same problem.
railgun splash radius should be taken from 5 meters to 3. if i can hit you with my slow tracking large railgun tho, you die. no two ways around it, you got shot in the face by a tank. heavies are slow, you knew that going into things. you cant arbitrarily change things cause you dont like getting one shotted by a tank when he hits you with a dome shot.
its not that easy actually hitting a dropsuit square on with a railgun turret and decreasing the splash would change things for the better.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
583
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Posted - 2012.09.04 23:24:00 -
[48] - Quote
STB-LURCHASAURUS EV wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:STB-LURCHASAURUS EV wrote:splash resist mods Not really useful for the issue at hand, which is Large Railguns vs Heavies, which are easy to hit directly. so you gonna nerf sniper rifles too? same problem. railgun splash radius should be taken from 5 meters to 3. if i can hit you with my slow tracking large railgun tho, you die. no two ways around it, you got shot in the face by a tank. heavies are slow, you knew that going into things. you cant arbitrarily change things cause you dont like getting one shotted by a tank when he hits you with a dome shot. its not that easy actually hitting a dropsuit square on with a railgun turret and decreasing the splash would change things for the better.
Sniper Rifles don't do 1800+ damage either, last time I checked.
Don't get all upset about it, you think I'm suggesting it because I use a heavy (which I never do), instead I use a railgun on a tank myself, and even I'll admit that heavies are by far the easiest to kill with it. |
Skytt Syysch
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
235
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Posted - 2012.09.05 01:25:00 -
[49] - Quote
I'd be ok with a heavy getting some kind of turret resistance. |
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