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An HAV and a Heavy walk into a bar....

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Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 787	Posted - 2012.09.04 08:34:00 - [1] - Quote So... I don't think it's a secret that I have been using tanks and dropships a lot this build. I've also spent a fair time running AV, so I was pondering ways to make both sides more fun. Right now, your typical AV encounter when driving a HAV ends up one of a couple ways : Most commonly, a group of the enemy team will switch to using the totally harmless militia shock starter fit. When seen, the heavy is blapped by the HAV which merrily continues its bloody rampage You get a couple very loosely or uncoordinated people with non militia AV weapons peppering the HAV, forcing you to relocate and recover, no serious threat, probably killing a couple people while you flee. You come across a well coordinated group of prototype AV users. Your tank is probably going to die. The other team has a tank (Or more than one) This generally comes down to the AV units on both sides and how decent at aiming/driving each player in the HAV is. At least one of the tanks is going to die. Circumstances described generally dictate this. Your typical AV encounter as a AV infantry when facing an HAV You've got nothing but the militia shock starter fit for AV (Maybe tweaked to add AV grenades). Very few people on your team helping you. You die a lot whenever the tank sees you. You've got decent AV fit but your team isn't supporting you. You can make the HAV flee by yourself, but without excellent positioning and/or the HAV driver derping... It's usually going to get away. But if it gets a clear shot at you, you're gonna die a lot. You're with a group of four friends in your squad, and you're all decked out for vehicle murderin'. You pepper the HAV nonstop and can likely kill it. Without using cover/hills to your advantage to avoid splash/direct damage you're probably going to take heavy losses in your squad while killing the tank still, but a flawless destruction without losing anyone in your squad is possible. Now, this seems like this is how things should be. HAV's have an edge against infantry but are killable. The main problem is, that during game design CCP probably didn't account for the fact a lot of players would be well... stupid. On paper the current stuff all works fine. But in practice, you've got HAV's rolling around relatively unopposed for the main reason that most people simply do not know how to kill them and cannot work as a team to do so. So where does this leave us? If we buff AV weapons, a coordinated squad will just slaughter a HAV without it having a chance. If we nerf HAV's, it's mostly the same thing. In a perfect world, we wouldn't need to change a thing and tanks would be far from 'immortal' as-is. So, I have a slightly different solution. A massive bulk of my kills as an HAV driver is heavy suits. They are supposed to be able to stand toe to toe with enemy vehicles, but they're nothing more than fodder. I'm proposing a massive resistance buff to the heavy only against vehicle main and secondary turrets. This effectively increases their hitpoints against vehicles without making them impossible for infantry to counter. All the while, it reinforces the heavy suit's role as an anti-vehicle platform while still making them easily killed by infantry without teammates to support them. I'm thinking the heavy should be able to survive at least one direct railgun blast. Splash damage from missiles and railguns should do practically nothing to a heavy, but enough to add up over prolonged engagements. This change alone would massively change the flow of a game, as a squad of heavies would be able to pretty effectively hold off or kill a HAV without those heavies being easily blapped. Without the tank having infantry support to handle the heavies, it would be at a disadvantage. More team play is good. Making the militia starter AV fit not harmless would also be good. What do you guys think?
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 360	Posted - 2012.09.04 08:39:00 - [2] - Quote sounds reasonable
STB-LURCHASAURUS EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 173	Posted - 2012.09.04 08:57:00 - [3] - Quote nova, you are a gentleman and a scholar. most of the av guys that come up against me arent bad gamers or some other such thing, they are just stupid. they dont use their heads, then they die and the whiners are the loudest on the forums. problem is, when your stupid, you dont realize it and you fail to entertain the possibility that you f'ed up and make post after post about tanks being broken. it also doesnt help that they try to balance tanks to the current build, when next build with ewar is what matters. CCP backs this and some good av people i know believe this. problem is, not everyone plays to a high enough level that is required in dust and they just want to pull out the rpg and pop a tank. i dont think ccp should dumb the game down, but i also feel the heavies should have a leg to stand on. if your a scout using a swarm launcher, i dont care about your feelings, but i do think heavies should be able to withstand more punishment from tank fire, not infantry fire. a resist buff against vehicles would be nice for heavies and would really solidify their use. CCP i implore you to not listen to the whiners and that you go about this in the intelligent way i think i see you already going. a squad of heavies hunting tanks should make me **** myself as a tank driver. increasing heavy suit capabilities for av roles would be smart i think. maybe consider implementing a heavy swarm launcher that goes in the heavy slot or even a type of artillery/flak cannon for anti air would be nice for heavies. (think i made some heavies real happy with that idea :))
Laz Ulian Sol Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 187	Posted - 2012.09.04 09:00:00 - [4] - Quote I think I would prefer a module that essentially reduced splash damage from explosions. Also possibly a mobile shield that can survive a few rail shots. Some kind of equipment item maybe. I prefer the solution of giving people more options as opposed to forcing a heavy drop suit to be a pure AV suit. Of course we are still missing loads of weapons and items that could make everything "click."
STB-LURCHASAURUS EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 173	Posted - 2012.09.04 09:07:00 - [5] - Quote splash resist mods? an excellent addition to the game methinks. ^^^ CCP
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 787	Posted - 2012.09.04 09:07:00 - [6] - Quote @ Laz Ulian Sol : You wouldn't really be forcing a heavy to be pure AV. They could easily rock a HMG or any other weapon and go for infantry. The entire point of what I'm saying is that heavies are walking bricks because they are built to take punishment but when it comes down to it... They're terrible at that. They are in a decent place against infantry right now, but their slow speed makes them nothing more than fodder for a decent HAV driver or dropship pilot. So, giving them back their bricklike qualities by making them more resilient against vehicles would just put them where it feels like they should be. Actually able to stand toe to toe with enemy vehicles like they are supposed to. Edit: The deployable stuff isn't a bad idea, but this thought like I said above is more about placing the heavy suit back where it was designed to be. Definitely make a post for that though in the feedback/requests section :)
STB-LURCHASAURUS EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 173	Posted - 2012.09.04 09:10:00 - [7] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: @ Laz Ulian Sol : You wouldn't really be forcing a heavy to be pure AV. They could easily rock a HMG or any other weapon and go for infantry. The entire point of what I'm saying is that heavies are walking bricks because they are built to take punishment but when it comes down to it... They're terrible at that. They are in a decent place against infantry right now, but their slow speed makes them nothing more than fodder for a decent HAV driver or dropship pilot. So, giving them back their bricklike qualities by making them more resilient against vehicles would just put them where it feels like they should be. Actually able to stand toe to toe with enemy vehicles like they are supposed to. i think splash resist mods would be an excellent way to go about this. if a heavy gets shot between the eyes with a railgun, he shouldnt be standing, but if its just splash, soak that up all day!
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 787	Posted - 2012.09.04 09:17:00 - [8] - Quote STB-LURCHASAURUS EV wrote: i think splash resist mods would be an excellent way to go about this. if a heavy gets shot between the eyes with a railgun, he shouldnt be standing, but if its just splash, soak that up all day! The problem is... they are too easy to hit directly with a railgun. Or missiles.Especially blasters. Without being more resilient to the main turret as well, there is no point in buffing the heavy's resistance. Modules are a great idea, but the heavy should get this bonus inherently as its base resists. Maybe modules can improve it further. I'd be okay with that. I'm not saying they should be able to sit there and take multiple direct hits... But they should be able to survive one direct blast from a railgun and be put to low/medium armor. A second blast directly should kill him, but it should take a few more splashes to finish him off if he can dodge it or escape from direct LoS. (On that note, Type-II heavy should probably be negated from this base resist bonus as part of what it gives up to get the wicked shield tank and mobility)
Laz Ulian Sol Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 187	Posted - 2012.09.04 09:17:00 - [9] - Quote Yes I understand what you're saying, Nova. I'm just worried that with a suit specific buff against vehicles people won't really try to make other suit AV work. I mean it's already pretty heavy focused when it comes to AV simply because of the forge guns. I suppose there is nothing extremely wrong with making a heavy suit more AV slanted but not to the point where it becomes standard operating protocol. Again, it could all be fine when we get to play with more of the weapons and equipment they have in store for us.
Seran Jinkar Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 214	Posted - 2012.09.04 09:17:00 - [10] - Quote I fully agree with Lurchasaurus on this. Increase splash damage resistance (maybe just from vehicles) on Heavy Dropsuits.

STB-LURCHASAURUS EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 173	Posted - 2012.09.04 09:21:00 - [11] - Quote as much as i agree with you on helping the heavy's survivability, an arbitrary resist to vehicles wont cut it now that i think about it and i dont think ccp does these things that way. i think some kind of simple resist mod is what will end up happening, and itll probably be able to be used by anyone. splash mods are easy to implement after all. a heavy should absolutely not be able to get up after a railgun to the face. its less about the heavy being gimped and more about the tank driver having a nice shot. i do ask for a decrease in the splash radius for large railguns tho. probably take it down from 5 to 3 meters. any less would be too much of a gimp for the tank's main defenses and 5 meters is a helluva lot of splash.
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 197	Posted - 2012.09.04 09:24:00 - [12] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: STB-LURCHASAURUS EV wrote: i think splash resist mods would be an excellent way to go about this. if a heavy gets shot between the eyes with a railgun, he shouldnt be standing, but if its just splash, soak that up all day! The problem is... they are too easy to hit directly with a railgun. Or missiles.Especially blasters. Without being more resilient to the main turret as well, there is no point in buffing the heavy's resistance. Modules are a great idea, but the heavy should get this bonus inherently as its base resists. Maybe modules can improve it further. I'd be okay with that. I'm not saying they should be able to sit there and take multiple direct hits... But they should be able to survive one direct blast from a railgun and be put to low/medium armor. A second blast directly should kill him, but it should take a few more splashes to finish him off if he can dodge it or escape from direct LoS. (On that note, Type-II heavy should probably be negated from this base resist bonus as part of what it gives up to get the wicked shield tank and mobility) Unfortunatly this would make them overpowered in other ways. Stick on a bunch of armour plates and you would happillly take out assault suits
Billi Gene Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 130	Posted - 2012.09.04 09:25:00 - [13] - Quote the heavy suit does not have equipment slots, so any ideas for a deployable shield would be removed from a heavy only scenario. least ways all the suits i have looked at**
Encharrion L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 104	Posted - 2012.09.04 09:56:00 - [14] - Quote Actually I suggested a heavy suit with a splash damage reduction in amongst some other tank balancing ideas I had. I don't think a heavy should be able to survive a direct hit from a railgun, that would just be too much.
dust badger BetaMax. 283	Posted - 2012.09.04 09:58:00 - [15] - Quote i like the idea of a module over a general heavy suit bonus as this will stop assault guys switching to heavy and AR to just to avoid getting killed by tanks
Gyrnius ZionTCD Legacy Rising 65	Posted - 2012.09.04 10:37:00 - [16] - Quote STB-LURCHASAURUS EV wrote: problem is, when your stupid, you dont realize it and you fail Your != You're Your is possessive - Your points are valid, but your message is a gabled mess of hacked up "almost-English" drivel. You're is the contraction of "you" and "are" - You're a moron for calling other people stupid in the same sentence in which you misuse your and you're. Consider yourself educated. Seriously though, if you want people to pay attention to what you have to say don't destroy your message with a crappy delivery.
Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.09.04 10:56:00 - [17] - Quote OP great idea. Splash dmg all day but direct hit should end them. This would at lest go some way to fixing these game brakers.
Shadows Maker Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 129	Posted - 2012.09.04 11:18:00 - [18] - Quote Whats the point of increased survivability when the heavy weapons are harmless i mean you just delaying his death instead of OHK now you just need 3 shots to kill a heavy AV its not like if you miss the first shot you would be dead before you can fire the next shot. Plus not all heavies want to specialize in AV in fact assault with SL is more effective than a heavy with a forge gun and that due to the limited mobility of the heavy. Also AV heavy is weaker than AV assault when encounter other infantry again due to his slow movement at least the assault can run away or dance when he encounter enemies while hunting tanks. Giving the AV role to one suits is not going to work.
dent 308 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 967	Posted - 2012.09.04 12:36:00 - [19] - Quote If we could fit a large enough buffer tank to survive a railgun direct hit ( on the heavy ) we could have remote reps applied from cover. Dred Urban has a buffer tank heavy fit that soaks up wild amounts of damage, requires a logi close by for reps.
STB-Kaios Family EV SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 12	Posted - 2012.09.04 12:49:00 - [20] - Quote i know this is a post on tanks for the most part but i have to disagree with the talk about heavys. i run heavy and im sorry but if a heavy cant take punishment then what is the point of a heavy and i mean from all sources they are slow and cant turn very well have no range so they are easy to hit if you have an AR stay at range heavy is dead shot gun 2 shots up close there dead smg run in a circle around them there dead. so if you get in a heavys kill box you should be dead no ifs ands about it. they should be able to soak op damage period.

Lazarus Solo KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 66	Posted - 2012.09.04 12:56:00 - [21] - Quote STB-LURCHASAURUS EV wrote: splash resist mods? an excellent addition to the game methinks. ^^^ CCP I think this is a good idea, but also the OP is onto something with greater hit points vs vehicles only.
William HBonney Imperfects Negative-Feedback 318	Posted - 2012.09.04 13:00:00 - [22] - Quote I think the 25% AV nerf was a bad idea, I was solo on Furries tank, I didn't intend to kill him, but I did want to see what I could do to him...he was sitting still and I put 3 packed AV nades on him... 2000 a pop and 4 swarms at 1500 a pop and he sat there with 3/4 shields....the difference between militia and proto tanks is huge...I mean massive, the difference between militia swarms and proto swarms is 575 dmg....that is .25 of an AV gernade....and most AV guys will get cut down by assault guys all day..esp if they run a fat suit.....Fat suits are straight up suicide
BLENDEDDAVE WARRIORS 108	Posted - 2012.09.04 13:01:00 - [23] - Quote if a tank has a full crew you get 250 points for the kill and 125 for the for helping out just not worth it . av has one role better to have a tank
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 787	Posted - 2012.09.04 18:00:00 - [24] - Quote Just to clarify again for those who missed it in the OP. This bonus would make a heavy able to withstand more punishment against vehicles because the vehicle weapons would do less damage than usual, but they would remain the same against infantry. For those thinking they shouldn't be able to survive a railgun... If you use a railgun tank a lot, (I'm sure Noc, Bad Furry, or anyone else or drives a railgun tank can vouch for this) A heavy is ridiculously easy to snipe with a railgun. Seriously. They are fodder for such an accurate weapon. This is my reasoning for saying a heavy should be able to take at least one shot to the body. They're supposed to be built for it anyways, apparently. Not that I'm saying it wouldn't -hurt- the heavy, but he should be able to barely survive it. The more important thing to consider though is what that survivability does. First, it creates a situation where if a tank driver is running around and sees two heavies on the road he doesn't immediately think 'Oooh. Easy kills!' This forces the tank driver to either avoid them or slow down/stop to kill them, rather than simply sniping them with one shot while driving without caring. What does making a tank stop do? Everything. Well coordinated players could lay some pretty awesome ambushes, and for those who aren't, a stationary tank gives you that much more time to attack it before it can flee. That time is precious for AV players. Further, more time that a heavy is alive means more shots put into the tank. More damage being done overall means the tank's day just got worse. Even if he kills the heavy, he's still taken more damage from one guy than he normally would, and that is less damage anyone else has to do to finish him off. That said, even with the resistance bonus, a proto scout with a proto swarm launcher/pistol will still probably be the best AV suit. The higher mobility and the ability to escape/dictate range vs other infantry means they are still a massive threat to infantry and vehicles alike. The boost to heavy resistances would make a heavy more like a walking roadblock, but not a win button against vehicles.
STB-LURCHASAURUS EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 173	Posted - 2012.09.04 18:13:00 - [25] - Quote Gyrnius wrote: STB-LURCHASAURUS EV wrote: problem is, when your stupid, you dont realize it and you fail Your != You're Your is possessive - Your points are valid, but your message is a gabled mess of hacked up "almost-English" drivel. You're is the contraction of "you" and "are" - You're a moron for calling other people stupid in the same sentence in which you misuse your and you're. Consider yourself educated. Seriously though, if you want people to pay attention to what you have to say don't destroy your message with a crappy delivery. thanks for calling me out for one missing letter. i am a better person now and suddenly i feel so ejumacated.
Goliath Raven Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 80	Posted - 2012.09.04 18:15:00 - [26] - Quote Awesome post is awesome. It's good to hear an informed opinion from someone who has speced both sides. Here is hoping CCP Takes notice of this.
howard sanchez Conspiratus Immortalis 448	Posted - 2012.09.04 18:25:00 - [27] - Quote I love the splash resist module idea. They tweaked the upper end suits towards plus slotsvs plus hp so give module options that can enhance suvivability where you need it Op and others have pointed out the real issue: dust p,ayers aren't using smart tactics yet to counter complex threats I implore CCP, as well, to not over tweak base functionality of weapon systems. If there is a method for players to effectively combat tanks through combined arms and teamwork let us figure it out with Darwin's help But I do like the splash resist module suggestion. Sandbox tools for sandbox kids!
DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1903	Posted - 2012.09.04 18:29:00 - [28] - Quote I actually had the exact same thought yesterday
Chompas BetaMax. 5	Posted - 2012.09.04 19:08:00 - [29] - Quote +1 for the Splash resist Module. Like that Idea. I also had some other thaughts. How about using Strontium to put the heavys shield into "Reinforce"? That way he could survive a direct railgun hit with no damage taken but with the cost of strontium (only avaliable for Heavy) Idea 2 A small Attack Quad giving the heavy suit extra Shield, plus better mobillity for chasing Tanks.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 904	Posted - 2012.09.04 19:11:00 - [30] - Quote I like the OP's idea for increasing resistance to vehicle weapons only.



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