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The sniper debate, from the perspective of a sniper.

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WILLMA-DUST Gauss Algintal Core Gallente Federation 20	Posted - 2012.08.20 17:06:00 - [1] - Quote First, yes, I can understand many of the points made against snipers. We're these invisible dots in the distance that abruptly and inexplicably end your game while you try to fight without worry about cover. But, would this work in real life? No, it would not. The purpose of a sniper isn't nearly so much to get kills, as it is to keep you afraid. It forces you to stay out of open areas, and there are people who just aren't getting that. That's not the fault of the sniper, or some overpowered aspect of the sniper, that's a failure to adapt. Before anyone claims that I am taking my KDR and saying "deal with it", let me share with you some of the things that get my blood boiling in a game as a sniper. OTHER SNIPERS - My gosh. Precious few people will make their next dropsuit the default Scout dropsuit, figure out where I am, and blast my brains out while I'm trying to zero in on a heavy or something. It was a big long trek to get from where I spawned to that choice perch I got you from. On top of that, all too often I'm blasted from close range on the way there and it takes two or three tries to actually get up that mountain. If you kill me once by quickly switching to a scout dropsuit, you probably "really" killed me three times. It's free, it's easy (I am NOT a moving target), and it's effective for the reasons given. Cover - Many maps have large obstructions set up through the landscape. Several, but still few people have learned to see from their screen where I hit them from, and figure out how to put something large between them and me. no straight lines - It takes me a while to get confident that when I let go of R1, you're going to take damage. Often I'll follow someone in my sights for a few seconds before releasing my charge rifle. If they stop, change speed, or change direction this resets my "confidence timer". People zigzagging around, moving over hills and through valleys, etc. drive me absolutely bats. I can't get a reliable fix on them, much less aim for the head. straight lines to me - This one's huge. You might as well just suicide to deny me the kill if you're going to do this. When you figure out where I am, don't run directly in my direction. Let's say that the average person is 5 feet tall, one and a half feet wide. Remember how long it takes me to feel confident? If you're going directly at me, in my sights, your position's translation is vertical, not horizontal. Your target "width" therefore, goes from 1.5 feet to 5 feet, more than three times the width. I'll have you down in moments, and mistakes on my part will probably not work out in your favor because mistakes will trend towards the head. If you are going to attempt a close range attack on me, at least sawtooth it. NEVER be travelling 0* towards me, always always ALWAYS at least 45* in either direction relative to me. It'll take longer to get to me, but you'll probably get to me. savage charges - I don't understand this. Large groups of people usually aren't sawtoothing. It's fish in a barrel. Stop that. I'm not going to die, I have an SMG as my secondary weapon so when you get close I'm just mowing you all down, and by the time you get to me three fourths of your mad dash charge is down by my hand. missile spam - Don't bother. It's a waste of your missiles. Save it for blasting LAV's before they land, it's probably mine trying to make a dash for a sniper perch. If you're in a stationary turret, all it's going to do is annoy me and get me to hop on comms and say someone needs to clear that turret off the field. It gets in the way of my sights.
Whispercrow Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 102	Posted - 2012.08.20 17:29:00 - [2] - Quote This goes out to the non-snipers, the sniper-haters, and all those who malign our craft. When I snipe, which is frequent, my preferred prey and, indeed, most of my kills, comes from other Snipers. It's a simple fact that we're cannibals. But... that's also a good thing. Snipers are sniper insurance. Their presence on your team means you have less to worry about the enemy's snipers, because they will be busy keeping their heads down or hunting me--their own kind. A 'real' sniper isn't only concerned with his own kills, though, but helping the team finish the map. Sometimes to our own detriment. Yeah, it's actually easier to hurf-blurf with a pile of other randoms in a big heap and hump the Hacking nodes over and over, rushing back and forth like mindless drones. And you end up getting a LOT of skill points for it, because the game doesn't care how many times you die, just how many times you kill or slap that button. You know that empty place you left alone on the other side of the map? That node in the middle of BFE that you won't bother defending because, even though it might make the team win, it's not worth your while cause of the reward system? Yeah. I'm covering that. If the map has 4 or 5 nodes, I might even be covering two of them at the same time. When I kill someone at the node, they take notice. When I shoot them as they are running at it from a distance, half the time they turn around and run back, or waste at least half a minute looking for cover. That's more time for the node to chew away at the enemy base. So, yeah, by all means, continue bitching about us. Continue complaining about how we don't contribute because we aren't part of the blob or out doing donuts in a disposable vehicle. We know how this works, even if you don't. I am by no means a super-skilled sniper. I'm only slightly average, in fact, but I know this, and you should too. I second about everything Gauss said. Especially the running in straight lines, that's just free instakills for us. If you know I'm there? Circle around from a distance behind cover. Get a vehicle. Drop a spawnpoint nearby. Or, better yet, do all three. Or just, you know, brush up on your own sniping skills. Find a place to perch. Not on top of the mountain or a building. Noob snipers go there, and it makes them a target, cause the FIRST place a counter-sniper looks is going to be the roofs of buildings and the peaks out mountains. Cause that's where the noob meat rushes to the slaughter. The more skilled you get, you tend to hide on the sides of mountains, in crevices, behind vehicles. Once you get a decent level of skill, you'll find places in the open ground, with nothing but a tiny rock or gentle fold in the land to use for cover... an almost nobody will look there until after getting sploded.
Ulf Thunderkick 24	Posted - 2012.08.20 18:37:00 - [3] - Quote I decided after the reset to go for a sniper/scout build this time. These last two comments are 100% accurate. Most of the bitching about snipers I see seems to relate to people trying to play as if they are rambo - do not stand still, it makes my job so painfully easy.
Suanar Daranaus Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 36	Posted - 2012.08.20 19:04:00 - [4] - Quote As a Sniper, I Aprove of these posts above. But dont let ALL the cats out of the bag.
Kivverg 12	Posted - 2012.08.20 19:07:00 - [5] - Quote Wait, people are whining about the sniper rifles in this game? They are hilariously underpowered.... particularly the complex and proto versions.
SGT Garrisson On The Brink 60	Posted - 2012.08.20 19:16:00 - [6] - Quote i totally agree with u guys ieven tho i dont play as a sniper i have a couple of senarios i tend to keep in my head #1 if im not paying atention were i should be (u know open spaces) i go splat tend to note which direction i got shot from tho and what weapon killed me tends to give me a rough idea where u are and 6-10 its enuff for me to find and kill the sniper that took me out this is my own fault for the reason i died #2 keep an eye on the kill feed u can see how meny snipers they are on the field so move with caution #3 this is where i think a little like a sniper if u have been watching the kill feed and u want to get the that objective to hack it no doubt u have seen a fellow team mate get his head blown off so back track alittle head around to the hill side if u can swap to a sniper rifle if at all posible and find cover and scour the hillsides taking care not to show urself this can be dificult if the sniper saw u in the first place b4 u back tracked if u wait long enuff out of sight he may have forgot u and moved on someone else (DONT AND I MEAN DONT) head back to were u were when u saw u mate get blown up the sniper obviously is covering that area i do tend to go out on sniper hunts after ive died once or twice to sniper fire there fun with a tactical AR as i dont need to get that close dropship on em if i can :) kamikazi a lav if done right and u maintained ur speed its hard for them to track u in the driver seat but these 2 make u vunerable to forge guns and swamers as well as other vheicles
Altessan Vigarde Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 84	Posted - 2012.08.20 19:23:00 - [7] - Quote Yeah seeing how powerful Snipers are, I actually went out and made a second character build and quickly realized how hard it is to be a sniper. The gun is going every which way and even when you stabilize it hit detection is awful at the distances I'm dealing with, and there always is the possibility of other snipers. This is basically what I realized with the railgun turret that people on here were whining about as well, it's actually incredibly easy to avoid, just know where it is and find cover. And when you actually flank it, it dies easily. The trick is just being aware of it, as you should be aware of snipers at all times. All that being said, let me, as an assault turned sniper, explain to all you snipers the life of an assault trooper. As sniper, most of your battle is awareness; knowing where the enemy players are and preventing them and other snipers from knowing where you are. Snipers don't usually gang up on each other either, you're generally engaging one other sniper at most. For an assault each fight is about 50% skill, 40% fitting, and 10% dumb luck, and a lot of the time I'll be going up against people using aurum weapons and be gunned down regardless of how often i hit them, and if there's more than one of them for get about it, being outnumbered is almost guaranteed death for an assault. So being a sniper definitely isn't all roses and peaches but as was previously noted, four enemies making a bee line for a sniper position is four easy kills for a sniper, and as a sniper your fitting only matters in that you do enough damage for a one hit kill, which with snipers as they are doesn't take much. TL;DR Non-snipers need to learn how to deal with snipers better, but there are many things snipers don't have to worry about, such as being out numbered and worrying about opponents fitting that give them a major advantage.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.08.20 20:55:00 - [8] - Quote My girlfriend is a sniper, and while not great, she's not bad at it. I'm not much of a sniper, but I've learned enough to put together a couple of decent Militia counter-sniper builds just in case my team is getting slaughtered by a couple. If I CAN do so, I prefer to get behind a sniper with a Shotgun or SMG (depending on my build at the time), but if that's not an option, I'll be able to play their game too, now. It's a useful fallback measure.
IR Scifi Algintal Core Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2012.08.21 00:17:00 - [9] - Quote I was always under the belief that snipers have main two roles which are both support roles at heart. The first being crowd control. If your team is rallying to take an objective camped out by the enemy you should do your damnedest to make sure that there are few as possible enemies standing when your team crests the hell. The other is guarding, if three guys are barreling in towards a teammate it's your job to make sure as few of them come into range of your teammate as possible and if it's not possible to stop you can at least wear them down so you teammate has a fighting chance. That one lone guy on a ridge as far away from the contested objective and ignoring his team to get the one lone militia fit running to hack a supply depot that everyone has long since stopped caring about. Not doing his job. The sniper who's picking off turret operators and clearing the way for the heavies plodding towards the next objective. A+ sniper would res again. At least that's how I always play it when I hang up the repair tool for awhile and get some sniper on. EDIT: I also forgot the essential COUNTER-sniper role. Clear those ridge hugging bastards out and send em spawning back to momma.
Ronin Odachi 38th Joint Tactical Command 127	Posted - 2012.08.21 01:22:00 - [10] - Quote I make a habit of never standing completely still when I can avoid it. When I do need to stop, I always look around for spots snipers could be, and adjust my position if exposed. Given the choice between a short, exposed route and a longer route with cover, take the longer one every time. And when you're about to flank your target, walk, don't run. When you run, you show up on the minimap, giving away your gambit. Be patient the extra couple of seconds and it'll pay off.

Fleisher Resnovich Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 3	Posted - 2012.08.22 18:39:00 - [11] - Quote While people "know" that the primary role of a sniper is to kill enemy soldiers, they tend to forget the secondary & tertiary roles; Squad Support & Sniper-Hunting. Both of which have been amply covered in previous posts, so all I'll do is add my agreement to them. I'd love to claim I'm a natural born sniper. Truth is that while I can shoot while moving; I can't hit anything that way. I therefore shoot from stationary which - if you want to avoid multiple deaths - means shooting from cover. One of my favourite cover spots is the top of one of the Plateau Towers. I was one of those annoying people who zipped up there alone in a dropship and covered A & B or B & C. That was the days when dropships were free & could be flown without a piloting skill. Nowadays I mountain goat, cover hug & occassionally shadow a small squad of my own side offering support from just behind them and just out of sight. (The latter is not easy, by the way) The towers present a few issues however; namely that the top can only be reached by dropship & that once you've been spotted, your only safe option is to jump off, get to safety and start all over again somewhere else. The latter is an occupational hazard; snipers should never stay in one place longer than three shots really, whether they get a hit, a kill or three misses. It's the former that I have a potential way around. While it's possible that they're there & I just haven't noticed them, I'd put ladders up the outside of the towers. They reduce the need for dropships, increase the amount of time to get into position & stop the enemy having to get dropships just to splat snipers with. If you imagine the tower as a square with a ledge half way up it & running around three sides. (not accurate, but bear with me) You could run two ladders; one from ground to one end of the ledge, and one from the other end of the ledge to the roof. To get to the roof, you'd have to climb ladder one, run around three sides of a square, then climb ladder two; all without getting shot. I'd like to see dropship-free routes onto most rooftops to be honest. How many buildings do you know that have roofs that can only be accessed by an aerial vehicle? It may seem like I'm asking for a lot of pro-sniper stuff. It's not my intention. A lot of weapons can be devastating from high ground, not just the sniper rifle. If you're using comms properly, then a sniper-scout-spotter can make life a lot easier for a team of pure ground-pounders. I don't want more open ground & less cover. I just want a way onto a high building without having to use a dropship. See you on the batlefield ladies & gents Fleisher.
Celix Kitannen Covenant Security Solutions 12	Posted - 2012.08.24 19:30:00 - [12] - Quote As a dedicated sniper and scout operative I would +10 everything Gauss and Whisp said. But I can only +1, so you two know that it's 10 at heart lol. I'm a sniper. I am, I know it, everyone on my team knows it, and sure as shootin' a few unlucky people on the other team will know it. What does that mean? -My skill points are far and few between. -My only real competition is myself and the occasional lost soul who is also a dedicated sniper. -My games are spent, for the vast majority, running around not shooting, hopping up and down like an idiot at all the dropship pilots hoping they will swoop down and give me a lift. -Dying. Repeatedly. In horrible ways as I try to get to one sniping spot or another. -My attention is divided up between everything on the battlefield and the HUD. -Desperately trying to keep my wallet afloat as I burn through fitting after fitting trying to get one kill. -And at the end of the day praying that I come out with a positive KDR so I don't look like a goomba. Since we're not scored by contributions It's not a rewarding way to play the game. To me it is, and a few other people, 'cause I firmly believe there's something fundamentally wrong with us as gamers/snipers. There's no other reason we would trek through hoards of haters, whiners, cry babies, liars calling OP on everything we use, and supremely aggravating deaths as we're killed seconds before the one shot we really wanna make. BUT there are things everyone should know- even other snipers. Never play without a mic. Your intel, what you see and what you gather from being a sniper, saves lives. Virtual ones sure, but it still saves lives. No matter how much you don't think people don't listen, or however much they hate on a sniper, they always pay attention when you say "You've got 4 tangos coming up behind you. And I don't have a shot." You might not be able to cover them, but you still got their backs. Sniping is thankless. It always will be so while it's great to see everyone finally showing just a bit of love, suck it up 'cause it never gets easier. I've been hated as a fps player since I first jumped into online battles as a sniper. Your job, as a sniper, is to help your team achieve the W. If you want a good KDR then boost up your Dropsuit command and SMG skills; go ninja someone. Sniping, true sniping, is 100% support oriented. The one constant in the real world and the virtual world is that everyone will see a sniper as a bad guy. Your team will think you're not helping; but they don't see the enemy heads vaporizing behind them. Everyone on the other team will always take being shot personally because you just killed them- you picked them, deliberately, out of a crowd and pulled the trigger. Or you shot their buddy, or the guy that was just about to win the game. Snipers or combat marksman make some of the best commanders and squad leaders around. Not all of them, but the ones that play for the team and squad are always a cut above. We see the battlefield much different than other play styles. Quote: Wait, people are whining about the sniper rifles in this game? They are hilariously underpowered.... particularly the complex and proto versions. Indeed they are lol. It's pitiful when you compare the damage stats of a BPO with a prototype. Quote: Non-snipers need to learn how to deal with snipers better, but there are many things snipers don't have to worry about, such as being out numbered and worrying about opponents fitting that give them a major advantage. Not true. My armor, even at prototype level, is paper thin. If I hic-up it rips. You're ALWAYS outnumbered as a sniper; we just happen to like it that way. Fittings are a new variable for us as well. We have to try and figure out what kind of armor and shields the target is working with. Are they shield tanking? Armor tanking? Will my gun take out one bar or one and a half? Can I make the next shot before I'm seen? Are they passive tanking? Will the repair/regen rate ruin my chance at a kill shot on round 2? If I shoot now can that logistics suit make the sprint to cover or do I take down the assault guy standing still? *And if you don't know why logistics should go down first then shame on you* And all of those questions have to be calculated in about 2 seconds. Quote: While people "know" that the primary role of a sniper is to kill enemy soldiers, they tend to forget the secondary & tertiary roles; Squad Support & Sniper-Hunting. My job is to support my team, guard objectives, call out anything I see, provide good usable intel, and surgically remove key threats. There is no secondary or tertiary role. 100% support. Anyone using a long rifle for kills isn't a sniper. They're campers- and I'm lumping them in with the guys who sit at spawn points with LAVs and rocket launchers. And don't be afraid to take your "sniper" ribbon and change it out with a "Combat Marksman" one. Someone who knows how to shoot, and aim better than most can do work with a burst or single fire assault rifle. There are about 50,000 different ways to snipe BUT all of the above will remain constant regardless of how you do it.
Athene Alland Red Fox Brigade 108	Posted - 2012.08.24 20:05:00 - [13] - Quote +1 to everybody, as a fellow sniper (if not a good one), I agree with everything said here, - 'Ad Mortis Nos Tripudio' -
Goric Rumis Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 80	Posted - 2012.08.24 20:14:00 - [14] - Quote As a person who almost exclusively plays a Heavy, occasionally Logistics: What crybabies are complaining about snipers? They're certainly not overpowered from what I can tell, so if you're having fun playing one then I don't see a problem.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.08.24 20:41:00 - [15] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: As a person who almost exclusively plays a Heavy, occasionally Logistics: What crybabies are complaining about snipers? They're certainly not overpowered from what I can tell, so if you're having fun playing one then I don't see a problem. People think that their precious Assault suits shouldn't be able to die from one hit. I haven't tested the Charge Sniper myself for this build, but if it can one-shot Proto Assaults without a headshot, there MiGHT be some value in nerfing that particular sniper weapon just slightly.
Goric Rumis Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 80	Posted - 2012.08.24 20:55:00 - [16] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: I haven't tested the Charge Sniper myself for this build, but if it can one-shot Proto Assaults without a headshot, there MiGHT be some value in nerfing that particular sniper weapon just slightly. Okay, I could see some merit to that argument.
Encharrion L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 104	Posted - 2012.08.24 21:31:00 - [17] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: I haven't tested the Charge Sniper myself for this build, but if it can one-shot Proto Assaults without a headshot, there MiGHT be some value in nerfing that particular sniper weapon just slightly. Okay, I could see some merit to that argument. I would only be ok with nerfing the charge sniper rifle if they add in the advanced and prototype charge rifles. The current charge rifle damage could be the advanced rifles damage, and the other two could be based off of that.
Jean-Henri 30	Posted - 2012.08.24 22:37:00 - [18] - Quote i played sniper last build, and allow me to point out that the prototype rifle, the ishukone, is not always a one shot kill, ive hit heavies in the head with it... no doubt they knew how to fit their suits and all, but just to add to this thread=even the prototype isk SnRifle is not a sure iWin. I got fed up with my skills as a sniper. Other snipers loved my stationary-taking too long to aim-not using cover antics. For every trooper i took out, i was twice over sniper fodder. I developed a love/hate relationship with my ishukone rifle, on the one hand it was a glorious head melting god hammer...but on the other hand it was like trying to sight from a boat offshore (last build sway did not reset to center after each shot). Now my favorite trooper (FoTM!!!) is this guy, his an A-kitten-ault ( ASSault) guy, I've learnt to live without the speed buffs of the scout, but mostly being able to tank a few hits makes life so much more bearable for me....scouts are soooo damn (also another kitten word) squishy. --side note: people trying to snipe in heavy suits makes me LOL, "hellooooo... I SEEEEE YOOOU!!!" ..back on topic ..But what I'm trying to say is that, having played as a sniper, and i've still got that character, I am better for it. I simply refuse to stand still... I channel my inner child- he has ADHD and is a little fatty chewing n red candy 24 HOURS A DAY!!!.... my inner child is always on the verge of holding a poo in... and the toilet is occupied!!!.... this little guy just Cannot Stand Still ... and wandering thoughts?... such a dreamer.. eyes always on the horizon, looking for inspiration for his tippy tappy dancing feet. Or looking under every rock for that monster with an ishukone.... having played a sniper has made me more aware of the UI, i actually look at the edges of my screen to see how many bad guys have been spotted, my proximity radar is always under scrutiny, and because I'm now used to tippy tappy dancing, I'm always taking little looks around every corner is sight ... guarding objectives is alot easier now!!! TLDR? if a sniper has killed you recently... you were either doing it wrong, or you just met that 1/1000 Person that has the Skills Needed to actually play sniper so artfully... that you actually didnt stand a chance against The Player. PS: if you are having troubles with snipers, try rolling one, the lesson learnt will serve you well... if you pay attention in class.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.08.25 01:39:00 - [19] - Quote I disagree with most of the points raised in this thread, and take exception to the sentiment that any issue there may be with snipers is all on the people the snipers are targeting. Sniper rifles are not a fun thing to be killed by. Dying instantly is not a good experience. Given how wide-open most maps are, there really isn't much room for any of these "well don't expose yourself/don't run in straight lines/etc" business. Snipers could be basically anywhere, and you have to expose yourself if you want to attack any objective. Personally, I find that sniper rifles place very minimal demands for skill on the player given how potent and safe they are to use. You simply need to put the dot on someone, and that's the end of it. The shot is instantaneous and incredibly powerful. Meanwhile, your target -- if they live -- likely has no means to retaliate. It's even more of a futile situation than dealing with one of the Dust beta's infamous tank whores. What I'd like to see done to sniper rifles I've detailed in another thread here called "Sniping with a mouse." In general I think the best approach to sniping is for it to be, overall, underpowered, as it is very unfun to die to, and impacts the game disproportionately so on account of how helpless people can be to fight back against it. I'll acknowledge that sniping may not be overpowered with a DS3, but as mice are cheap and easily available to anyone, it's the power of sniping with a mouse which I believe sets the tone for the entire gameplay style (nobody serious about sniping would do so with a DS3.)
Shiro Mokuzan 220	Posted - 2012.08.25 03:17:00 - [20] - Quote Snipers annoy me from time to time, but if it'll teach the average player the importance of cover and tactics, I'm fine with them.

Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.08.25 03:32:00 - [21] - Quote There are not cover or tactics that can prevent people from being targets for snipers, unless of course they hide in their spawn and never reveal themselves the entire game. This is not an issue where the onus is on other players to avoid being killed by snipers. Even if you know where the sniper is shooting from, what're the odds that's the only sniper? What're the odds you can move somewhere that sniper's huge range and accuracy can't hit you from? Can you do any of that while also not being totally exposed to other enemies on the ground? The idea that it's all about tactics or cover is really completely nonsense, I feel. Maybe if it's one of those ambush maps where it's mostly close quarters, and you know there's only one sniper and he's sitting on some particular hill, then maybe you can say that cover and tactics will be a valid defense against the sniper. But in any of the Skirmish maps, any of the big open-air maps, you have no defense. Everytime you make a move you're rolling the dice in a big way, and that really isn't very fun.
STB Vermaak Doe 558	Posted - 2012.08.25 03:45:00 - [22] - Quote Lower the damage to around 70, triple the capacity. Nuff SaidGäó


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