DUST Search - Adjusting ISK prices -- good long run, bad short run

Trinity Ashima wrote:

Darxis Redd wrote:

I like that you're not able to just spam Proto gear every fight now, but I think the prices have shifted a bit too far in one direction again -- now they're too expensive.

Just hear me out. I make maybe around 50k-75k isk per game on a good game (if the quality of the game even affects the ISK amount). Assuming i die 5-10 times per game, which is perfectly fine for a logistics player, with my fit I only lose a repair tool on death. Everything else, suit included, is militia. The only non-militia item I have is the Triage Repair Tool.

Here's the issue: They cost around 7,600 isk a piece. Assuming I die 10 times, and make 75k isk, I actually am LOSING money. Assuming I die 5 times, and make 50k isk, I'm only making around 15k isk total replacing my gear.

Sounds acceptable if you're not running around with FULL militia gear aside from one slot.

TL;DR Having just a non-militia repair tool lowers my income to almost nothing every match, even when my suit and all other gear is militia.

Again paraphrasing a post in another thread since this seems to come up so often. Game designed to punsish death. New Eden is cruel. You want to keep good armour get shot less or learn to call for logistic. Risk reward.

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Darxis Redd Bragian Order Amarr Empire 7	Posted - 2012.08.18 19:51:00 - [1] - Quote I like that you're not able to just spam Proto gear every fight now, but I think the prices have shifted a bit too far in one direction again -- now they're too expensive. Just hear me out. I make maybe around 50k-75k isk per game on a good game (if the quality of the game even affects the ISK amount). Assuming i die 5-10 times per game, which is perfectly fine for a logistics player, with my fit I only lose a repair tool on death. Everything else, suit included, is militia. The only non-militia item I have is the Triage Repair Tool. Here's the issue: They cost around 7,600 isk a piece. Assuming I die 10 times, and make 75k isk, I actually am LOSING money. Assuming I die 5 times, and make 50k isk, I'm only making around 15k isk total replacing my gear. Sounds acceptable if you're not running around with FULL militia gear aside from one slot. TL;DR Having just a non-militia repair tool lowers my income to almost nothing every match, even when my suit and all other gear is militia.
Khulam Alkon Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 46	Posted - 2012.08.18 19:58:00 - [2] - Quote I agree, things are way too expensive now. I had to do several matches in milita gear to even afford 10 type 1 assault suits and 10 breach AR's and i wont be able to replace those for several matches when they're gone...
Bo Tracta Celtic Anarchy 56	Posted - 2012.08.18 20:14:00 - [3] - Quote I agree also, I think it has possibly gone too far the other way now. But hey, it's always good to test things.
Kovak Therim ZionTCD Legacy Rising 158	Posted - 2012.08.18 20:20:00 - [4] - Quote Logistic suit is the medic, right? Do you get any default militia revive/heal gear? That's something CCP should look into if you don't. That's like a heavy without a basic swarm launcher.
Kyy Seiska Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 188	Posted - 2012.08.18 21:23:00 - [5] - Quote well at least ISK is now worth something. Had like 4mil in last build with nothing to really spend it on as the expensive toys where pilot/driver exclusives.
Trinity Ashima Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 32	Posted - 2012.08.18 21:26:00 - [6] - Quote Darxis Redd wrote: I like that you're not able to just spam Proto gear every fight now, but I think the prices have shifted a bit too far in one direction again -- now they're too expensive. Just hear me out. I make maybe around 50k-75k isk per game on a good game (if the quality of the game even affects the ISK amount). Assuming i die 5-10 times per game, which is perfectly fine for a logistics player, with my fit I only lose a repair tool on death. Everything else, suit included, is militia. The only non-militia item I have is the Triage Repair Tool. Here's the issue: They cost around 7,600 isk a piece. Assuming I die 10 times, and make 75k isk, I actually am LOSING money. Assuming I die 5 times, and make 50k isk, I'm only making around 15k isk total replacing my gear. Sounds acceptable if you're not running around with FULL militia gear aside from one slot. TL;DR Having just a non-militia repair tool lowers my income to almost nothing every match, even when my suit and all other gear is militia. Again paraphrasing a post in another thread since this seems to come up so often. Game designed to punsish death. New Eden is cruel. You want to keep good armour get shot less or learn to call for logistic. Risk reward.
Malfearion Jadablade Black Core Alliance 18	Posted - 2012.08.18 21:38:00 - [7] - Quote I agree on this topic, for the casual player not just fits but skills cost way to much, some basic skills are upwards of 125k isk and should be trained for better survivability before investing in more costly suits and equipment. this cost increase is compounded by the lowering of payouts. this will be a delicate balance that when mixed with the Eve market and contracts will constitute a very delicate dance. for instance. If I had a way to give isk to this toon from my eve account I would be fully outfitted and skilled up and isk would not be a worry. this however would be very unfair to those who do not have an eve account and I could see them being discouraged easily by the ratio of reward for battles hard fought. I recently finished a battle the was pretty evenly matched (good job on the match maker btw) I had 8 losses to 6 kills, did lots of hacks and assists. it was my best SP payout since the new patch and in relation so was the isk, by the time I bought the shield operation skill book I was broke again. I will say the ratio is getting better but not quite there yet.
tribal wyvern ZionTCD Legacy Rising 675	Posted - 2012.08.18 22:17:00 - [8] - Quote Darxis Redd wrote: I like that you're not able to just spam Proto gear every fight now, but I think the prices have shifted a bit too far in one direction again -- now they're too expensive. Just hear me out. I make maybe around 50k-75k isk per game on a good game (if the quality of the game even affects the ISK amount). Assuming i die 5-10 times per game, which is perfectly fine for a logistics player, with my fit I only lose a repair tool on death. Everything else, suit included, is militia. The only non-militia item I have is the Triage Repair Tool. Here's the issue: They cost around 7,600 isk a piece. Assuming I die 10 times, and make 75k isk, I actually am LOSING money. Assuming I die 5 times, and make 50k isk, I'm only making around 15k isk total replacing my gear. Sounds acceptable if you're not running around with FULL militia gear aside from one slot. TL;DR Having just a non-militia repair tool lowers my income to almost nothing every match, even when my suit and all other gear is militia. You lot want it too easy lol change the repair tool for a militia repair tool, keep all your gear militia, militia dropsuits,weapons,vehicles,turrets,modules etc. Remember you only have to buy one militia item because you don't lose them when you die. Build up your isk/sp to a balance that you feel is satisfactory. Raise isk by reviving,repairing,hacking,resupplying etc, only kill when you have to. High end vehicles aren't meant to be used for every match, only when you NEED it.
Talnos Nosslu Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 46	Posted - 2012.08.18 22:41:00 - [9] - Quote Not to mention the amount of hours invested in comparison to the amount of ISK earned, and how quickly it gets spent buying items. We're talking money in the form manhours. Time is money. But I suppose that's part of the risk also?
SILENTSAM 69 Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 421	Posted - 2012.08.18 22:44:00 - [10] - Quote Prices will eventually be set by supply and demand, along with player manipulation. Prices now are almost irrelevant.

Nomex Gallatin OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2012.08.19 18:35:00 - [11] - Quote While the last build did pay out too much, I would agree with the OP, reward and cost have gone too much in the other direction and it now needs to be balanced. One should be able to play and eek out a good living and build his fit without going broke just because he dies 5 times in a match. I consider myself an average player, and I am having a dickens of a time trying to balance the personal checkbook and fight effectively with the gear I am working heard to build up. I can deal with the slower growth of my character with the lower skill point payout at the end of the match, but I feel having the ISK payout cut this much is a bit over the top, the risk/reward factor is close, but needs to be adjusted up just a bit (at lease with the ISK payout). This truly needs to be fixed, as I think too many people will lose interest when they need to keep switching out to militia gear every third game or so. Thanks for a fun game Dev crew, we appreciate it an look forward to more.
Ulf Thunderkick 24	Posted - 2012.08.19 21:15:00 - [12] - Quote Nomex Gallatin wrote: While the last build did pay out too much, I would agree with the OP, reward and cost have gone too much in the other direction and it now needs to be balanced. One should be able to play and eek out a good living and build his fit without going broke just because he dies 5 times in a match. I consider myself an average player, and I am having a dickens of a time trying to balance the personal checkbook and fight effectively with the gear I am working heard to build up. I can deal with the slower growth of my character with the lower skill point payout at the end of the match, but I feel having the ISK payout cut this much is a bit over the top, the risk/reward factor is close, but needs to be adjusted up just a bit (at lease with the ISK payout). This truly needs to be fixed, as I think too many people will lose interest when they need to keep switching out to militia gear every third game or so. Thanks for a fun game Dev crew, we appreciate it an look forward to more. This. It isn't about the whole "Eve is cruel, risk vs. reward" rhetoric. Essentially, the game becomes annoying to play when you cannot use the items you spend SP to enable. This isn't to say that it should be like the last build, where isk was meaningless, but the cost of many non-militia items needs to be dropped.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.08.19 22:45:00 - [13] - Quote I agree with this, and liked the post.
Nomex Gallatin OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2012.08.21 19:04:00 - [14] - Quote Ulf Thunderkick wrote: Nomex Gallatin wrote: It isn't about the whole "Eve is cruel, risk vs. reward" rhetoric. Essentially, the game becomes annoying to play when you cannot use the items you spend SP to enable. This isn't to say that it should be like the last build, where isk was meaningless, but the cost of many non-militia items needs to be dropped. Read what I wrote... I am in agreement with you.
Smokey Killer51 Bragian Order Amarr Empire 21	Posted - 2012.08.22 00:07:00 - [15] - Quote Agreed
Naustradamus Oracle Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 61	Posted - 2012.08.22 00:24:00 - [16] - Quote I think the prices are fine just as is, maybe not high enough Remember, what we are playing now isn't Dust 514's goal. We aren't suppose to be able to buy and figh with high grade gear all the time. The ISK we get during NPC generated battles will be nothing compared to contract battles and Corp planetary ownership. So same as Eve, no one in Eve gets a Titan but just playing alone and on the safe zone, they go out, join or create a corp, gets lots of minerals, kill lots and die lots Either way, the big money is in corp battles and contracts
Dante Daedrik Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 97	Posted - 2012.08.22 01:21:00 - [17] - Quote While that may be true, more ISK = more survivability = more done in a game = more SP = more likely to be funded by a corp for a job. Once you get self-sufficient with corps thats all fine & dandy but getting there is the problem
Mobius Kaethis Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 306	Posted - 2012.08.22 01:44:00 - [18] - Quote I think that the solution for this is to make the cost of level 1 gear cheaper and the cost of proto level gear even more expensive. Instead of a linear cost curve there should be an exponential cost curve. That would limit the use of proto gear but make it possible to use something other than a militia fit. I do think that this will be less of an issue by release though because of one thing, market integration. Once eve players start making huge numbers (tens of thousands) of basic items per run, and I say this because of the size of a dust item relative to the volume of materials harvested at a time in EVE, the cost for basic dust items will fall.
pjwarrior long D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire 17	Posted - 2012.08.22 03:01:00 - [19] - Quote Trinity Ashima wrote: Darxis Redd wrote: I like that you're not able to just spam Proto gear every fight now, but I think the prices have shifted a bit too far in one direction again -- now they're too expensive. Just hear me out. I make maybe around 50k-75k isk per game on a good game (if the quality of the game even affects the ISK amount). Assuming i die 5-10 times per game, which is perfectly fine for a logistics player, with my fit I only lose a repair tool on death. Everything else, suit included, is militia. The only non-militia item I have is the Triage Repair Tool. Here's the issue: They cost around 7,600 isk a piece. Assuming I die 10 times, and make 75k isk, I actually am LOSING money. Assuming I die 5 times, and make 50k isk, I'm only making around 15k isk total replacing my gear. Sounds acceptable if you're not running around with FULL militia gear aside from one slot. TL;DR Having just a non-militia repair tool lowers my income to almost nothing every match, even when my suit and all other gear is militia. Again paraphrasing a post in another thread since this seems to come up so often. Game designed to punsish death. New Eden is cruel. You want to keep good armour get shot less or learn to call for logistic. Risk reward. yea... but it is too easy to die... atleast make the battle fun and long before you lose a whole lot of money!!!
Hael Arran Algintal Core Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2012.08.22 03:30:00 - [20] - Quote Ok I have to clear up some misconceptions here. For one these ISK rewards mean nothing, when the game goes live I will gladly pay each merc 100million+ to protect my planet or to assault an enemy planet. These values are the high security values, low risk low reward. When the game goes live and you get low and null security contracts the ISK will be much much higher. To give an example you do a L1 mission in high sec in eve and you net MAYBE 50k ISK from it. You do a L5 mission in Null sec and you net 30mil + ISK from it. Right now its as if you're fighting in high security. You wouldn't bring in a battleship to do a L1 mission and you wouldn't bring in a frigate to do a L5 mission. Just like you wouldn't bring a proto suit to attack a lightly defended planet and you wouldn't bring in a Type 1 suit to attack a fortress. Right now on my main in EVE Online I have about 19 billion ISK at my disposal. If I really want you to succeed in defending a planet for me, I'll pay for your suits, your tanks, your weapons, modules. I'll pay for it all cause chances are I make more off that planet in an hour than I spent to have you defend it. Prices are fine as they are.

Domingo Cervezas Cult of the Warrior 15	Posted - 2012.08.23 04:00:00 - [21] - Quote Please keep the progression of the game more EVE like. Don't go easy and the way of other FPS's. I'll be terribley disappointed if after release you see someone in Proto gear in less than 1 1/2 years. Do you see people flying a Caldari Widow shortly after starting a toon in EVE? Hell no!! Takes some patience, dedication, and work to get the good ships. That's just a Tech 2 ship even. Perhaps someday we will say "planet side battles is serious business". You make it easy and we will never be able to say that.
Eirik DenRoue 22	Posted - 2012.08.23 06:31:00 - [22] - Quote Prices are fine for when the marketplace opens up for players to sell loot. Each player is getting rewarded much more in this build than the last. However, since we can't sell that precious loot at the moment, prices are high. But once the game goes live, it will be a free market, and all current prices will be irrelevant. EVE players will dump tons of ISK into DUST causing all kinds of insanity for both games!
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.08.23 06:41:00 - [23] - Quote People really should be able use full standard Type1 dropsuits and equipment and still manage to make a profit.
Dante Daedrik Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 97	Posted - 2012.08.23 18:12:00 - [24] - Quote Can't test much stuff or even try out different playstyles due to expense of skill books & low-tier equipment. Edit: Since we are on Si-Si it would be nice to atleast be able to sell these items to NPC's. Or even set up a separate Dust Only Auction Market, not connected to Si-Si's Market (however much there may be one).


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