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Ender 22
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 04:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
As ccp constantly talks about the taps and sinks in the eve economy what they've done is create the largest sink in the eve economy that I'm aware of.
TL;DR: The economy in Dust is broken. The tap is dripping into a sink with a full 4 inch drain. New players will stop playing when they go broke
No so tldr: The game is set up in a well established circle: kills/gameplay = money and SP -> enough money and sp = easier ways to kill/gameplay -> repeat.
However this circle that keeps players playing is broken. There's no point to push towards more gear because you will never become money stable with it. Unless you can ensure you never die...
The honest reason i kept playing the beta was the same reason I play eve, the next shiny thing. I've worked from standard to advanced and have just unlocked the proto suits, I'm 320k sp from proto assault rifles. Ever since Monday I've been itching to log on and get that last 320k sp. But now, why bother?
Here's how to fix it: If you are a positive influence to the team, logi/kills, then your cost to replace is covered and then some.
This is a minimum requirement for any FPS. No-one will log on to lose because they can't afford the best gear, period. People that say "oh it's so the mega eve alliances will have the best equipment" are crazy, FPS players will not stand to play will **** gear that WILL result in them losing.
Eve Econ's: Have the cost to create the gear 10% less than what the NPCs sell the gear for. This leaves a margin for competition and profit and will prevent the eve players from becoming ridiculously rich. With this said, I've never heard of a poor arms dealer before and would assume there is money to be made.
I was serious, what is the point of playing now? |
theschizogenious
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
167
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 04:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
used full militia died alot made 500k isk your argument is invalid
have a nice day |
Ender 22
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 04:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
theschizogenious wrote:used full militia died alot made 500k isk your argument is invalid have a nice day
I fail to see how that invalidates my argument, What are you going to do with that 500k? Die 2.5 times in your shiny proto gear and go back to the useless milita gear with your awesome 1:4...1:6 kdr? |
theschizogenious
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
167
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 05:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ender 22 wrote:theschizogenious wrote:used full militia died alot made 500k isk your argument is invalid have a nice day I fail to see how that invalidates my argument, What are you going to do with that 500k? Die 2.5 times in your shiny proto gear and go back to the useless milita gear with your awesome 1:4...1:6 kdr?
12:5 please good sir
and no screw proto gear i dont need to little room to make mistakes without seeing your guy become a couple hundred thousand isk smear on the ground.
id much rather prefer living it up in tier 2 or advanced armor with my militia modules and complex damage modifier with a passive 15% damage increase keeping costs low while still being effective thats how you make money my friend |
Severus Smith
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
163
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 05:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ender 22 wrote:theschizogenious wrote:used full militia died alot made 500k isk your argument is invalid have a nice day I fail to see how that invalidates my argument, What are you going to do with that 500k? Die 2.5 times in your shiny proto gear and go back to the useless milita gear with your awesome 1:4...1:6 kdr? I think you miss the point of Proto gear, it isn't for everyone. Proto Gear is for players who are funded by EVE pilots. That is the point of this game. You are a Mercenary who fights at the whims of the demigods of space. EVE Pilots.
In EVE I can have my pilot go do a level 4 mission and make roughly 50,000,000 ISK in an hour or so. I then take that 50,000,000 ISK and hire a group of Dust Mercs to go kill things for me. Fight well, and I'll hire you for a nice juicy contract.
And how much does a full Proto suit cost? 1 - 2 million ISK at max? That is a pittance in EVE. Ships are blown up every minute that cost 100x times that. Alliances commonly lose BILLIONS of ISK in fleet battles and shrug it off.
I think the problem is that non EVE players have a skewed perspective of the currency levels. When people see "1 million ISK" they think that's a lot. It isn't' To help put it into perspective for non EVE players: 1 million ISK roughly equals 1 gold in WoW. So remember that when you read these posts about how much stuff costs. That 1.5 million proto suit is a measly 1.5 gold to a level 85 WoW player. If you're aiming for the end game and can't spare that tiny amount of change then you aren't ready for the end game.
And remember the #1 rule of New Eden. Don't use what you can't afford to lose. |
Ender 22
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 05:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
theschizogenious wrote:12:5 please good sir and no screw proto gear i dont need to little room to make mistakes without seeing your guy become a couple hundred thousand isk smear on the ground. id much rather prefer living it up in tier 2 or advanced armor with my militia modules and complex damage modifier with a passive 15% damage increase keeping costs low while still being effective thats how you make money my friend
I'll accept that but then why play and work away at SP when you've essentially capped out at 2mil sp?
I agree there is still a workable mechanic here, for every change in rules there will always be a way to succeed. But why have the proto gear when there's no sustainable way to use it.
Also this was an annoying side effect: The price gap creates an inherent refusal to push in teams that start losing.
Honestly I don't have the proto gear and my KDR is/was good. But I just have lost to want to play this game. |
Song Soulfire
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 08:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
lets not forget that Dust currently has no real market...
being able to sell salvage from a run is nice :)...
also once the EVE market goes online for DUST, mercs will be able to play 'buy low sell high' with the rest of 'em.
on a side-ish note... getting kills in Ambush matches but loses the match started to award 0 SP for me... that isnt much fun at all now!
edit: gotta say, killing someone with AUR + proto gear is hella rewading :).. took the guy a few matches to calm down and stop running after me all the time... lol no i lie... he didnt get over it :D |
Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 10:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
As Song Soulfire said: The market needs to established. And the players need to realize that you lose your equipment. Has nobody ever player Demon's or Dark Souls here? There ARE people that like the thrill of permanent loss. And Dust is even a notch higher on the lose things scale. But in the end it's all about calculating risk (invested isk) to reward (SP, ISK and things like KDR, fame etc.) If a player thinks his KDR is absolutely important he needs to risk more isk than a player that does not care about his KDR.
I just realised .... Dust is not "Adapt or Die!" it's "Adapt and Die anyway." Sooner or later you will die. You just gotta make the best out of what you have. May it be Militia or Proto.
If you put your best equipment in a scale that is against a team of Militia users, you will still lose even when you kill them 20 times and you are killed 2 times. ISK investment only stops to matter in alliance warfare when the alliance has no problem to pay for the best gear and all that matters is the territorial control. |
Aq'sa
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
44
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 13:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
I agree the increase in rate is a bit drastic at current terms. 2.0M for a well fit prototype suit is ludicrous and is only acceptable if Dust mercs have higher match returns or auxiliary income sources. I have some ideas on how to solidify the positions of the Dust mercs within the Eve economy, mainly by making sure they control essential, thus highly valuable, resources of production. This would be accomplished by allowing Dust mercs to make the BPCs (Blueprint Copies) of owned BPOs (Blueprint Originals- the blue items in Dust you don't have to buy more of for your fittings) that Eve players need to build dust gear. Have Dust mercs be able to acquire a few randomly seeded BPOs of higher gear through PvE or other drop mechanisms, maintaining the total number of BPOs of a certain item in existence between a given min-max.
If we don't want Dust mercs controlling high level BPOs- allow BPCs of high level Dust gear to only drop in Dust. This way they still control the flow of BPC into Eve, giving Dust mercs a significant revenue stream.
The long version is in my post linked below.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=29846&find=unread |
Mic McCoy
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
The only way I can agree with the current pricing scheme of things is if they introduce other ways to make isk. In eve I can run missions, hunt belt rats, run incursions, manufacture, play the market, mine and explore my way to more isk. Isk which in turn funds my pvp. In dust as of now, we can only make isk though pvp which extremely ineffective and usually leads to being broke very quickly. We need to have other sources of income other than pvp in order to make this kind of high prices gear system work. |
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Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
theschizogenious wrote:used full militia died alot made 500k isk your argument is invalid have a nice day You made no point at all. I almost want to link that one YouTube video... In any case, you just missed the whole idea completely. The point was that you can skill up for higher level gear, but you can't make enough ISK to cover it unless you can ensure you never get killed. |
Degren Cthulhu
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
theschizogenious wrote:used full militia died alot made 500k isk your argument is invalid have a nice day
me to, made 6 mill in 2 days lost nothing and still had fun |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Degren Cthulhu wrote:theschizogenious wrote:used full militia died alot made 500k isk your argument is invalid have a nice day me to, made 6 mill in 2 days lost nothing and still had fun Again, not the point. The point is that you can skill up for better gear, but will just go bankrupt using it. It makes the skilling up aspect pointless. |
Degren Cthulhu
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 15:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
no it just means you have to use your nappa a bit more and give yourself an isk buffer before you start using your shiney **** |
Ender Storm
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
50
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
OP, if you do money no matter what you will have no risks. Top gear costs more money and are made for special ocasions. Day by day gear is medium cost/benefit gear that you can afford to lose.
As in EVE, where the "dont fly what you cant afford to loose" rule apply, so its in Dust.
People dont go to war in full officer fits for a reason.
The most likely scenario is that people will only use pimped out gear for big contracts that have high stakes involved. For all else, use crap. |
Knarf Black
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
397
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
There has to be a reason not to use Proto gear once you've earned it. Otherwise the game is just Proto guys killing everyone else.
I basically skipped standard and advanced in the last build; rolling militia until I had Lvl. 5 dropsuit skills and 12 mil in the bank. I switched back to militia maybe once or twice after joining redlined teams, but otherwise it was all proto all the time. |
J'Jor Da'Wg
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
648
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 17:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
As people have said, proto gear is not for every battle. Standard , TII, and Advanced are all that would likely be used... Imagine fitting every soldier in an army with THE MOST EXPENSIVE gear around. Not happening. You trade off for cost. I think it makes for more level gameplay without an artificial cap. Now, being a lon time player won't make you unkillable, because most people will use Standard or Type II gear, with few willing to pay for Advanced. You wont see full Proto teams pubsmashing because they wont get enough reward back..
Now in nullsec, thats different. Say you have to take a district that is giving some sort of advantage to defenders. You are playing for keeps now... You will be usin the best money can afford... |
Usikava Shawley
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 17:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
Talking about why to skill up... Hm... Have you forgot about bonuses from your skills? Maxed out Militia Assault Rifle will be better then starter's Militia Assault Rifle anyway
Here you have 2 kind of battles Faction Warfare (where we are at now) - Casual games, you should use Militia\T1\T2 suit and weapon here and mostly cheapest vehicles (some modules could be fitted but you should be anyway COST EFFECTIVE)
0.0 Battles - Hardcore games, you should fit taking payout in account but it will be Proto and best vehicles most of the times Why? From far Alliance point of view, controlling planets in region gives you: a) Essential parts of POS Fuel b) Other production materials c) Passive income to attract citizens (So they could pay higher rent and make Alliance income even bigger) Why don't hire bunch of mercs for good payment so they could use best gear...
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pjster long
Doomheim
28
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ender 22 wrote:As ccp constantly talks about the taps and sinks in the eve economy what they've done is create the largest sink in the eve economy that I'm aware of.
TL;DR: The economy in Dust is broken. The tap is dripping into a sink with a full 4 inch drain. New players will stop playing when they go broke
No so tldr: The game is set up in a well established circle: kills/gameplay = money and SP -> enough money and sp = easier ways to kill/gameplay -> repeat.
However this circle that keeps players playing is broken. There's no point to push towards more gear because you will never become money stable with it. Unless you can ensure you never die...
The honest reason i kept playing the beta was the same reason I play eve, the next shiny thing. I've worked from standard to advanced and have just unlocked the proto suits, I'm 320k sp from proto assault rifles. Ever since Monday I've been itching to log on and get that last 320k sp. But now, why bother?
Here's how to fix it: If you are a positive influence to the team, logi/kills, then your cost to replace is covered and then some.
This is a minimum requirement for any FPS. No-one will log on to lose because they can't afford the best gear, period. People that say "oh it's so the mega eve alliances will have the best equipment" are crazy, FPS players will not stand to play will **** gear that WILL result in them losing.
Eve Econ's: Have the cost to create the gear 10% less than what the NPCs sell the gear for. This leaves a margin for competition and profit and will prevent the eve players from becoming ridiculously rich. With this said, I've never heard of a poor arms dealer before and would assume there is money to be made.
I was serious, what is the point of playing now?
I believe the contracts that players will make will fix this... just my opinion...
|
EVICER
63
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 22:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
Usikava Shawley wrote:Talking about why to skill up... Hm... Have you forgot about bonuses from your skills? Maxed out Militia Assault Rifle will be better then starter's Militia Assault Rifle anyway
Here you have 2 kind of battles Faction Warfare (where we are at now) - Casual games, you should use Militia\T1\T2 suit and weapon here and mostly cheapest vehicles (some modules could be fitted but you should be anyway COST EFFECTIVE)
0.0 Battles - Hardcore games, you should fit taking payout in account but it will be Proto and best vehicles most of the times Why? From far Alliance point of view, controlling planets in region gives you: a) Essential parts of POS Fuel b) Other production materials c) Passive income to attract citizens (So they could pay higher rent and make Alliance income even bigger) Why don't hire bunch of mercs for good payment so they could use best gear...
and thus Sigarus powns all.Because the infantry cant take it down.....really?
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Ender 22
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 02:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
Where did CCP say they wanted this to be the mechanic? Like I haven't seen anything from CCP saying this is how they want the game to be. All I've seen and heard are ideas from the players.
The game balance is broken. I will not play this game if this is how they want to release the game. My hope today is that they are fixing this and restoring the balance / cloging up the sink |
Corvus Ravensong
Skyel Industries Subspace Exploration Agency
179
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 02:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
Dude, if you just lost all your shiny little toys in a match, you are supposed to either 1. stroll over to the market and replace them, or 2. play a couple matches in some militia or cheap gear so that you can afford your proto gear again.
What you are probably not supposed to do is 1. cry about losing all your proto gear (shows you weren't really ready to use it) or 2. run all proto gear w/o checking your wallet 1st to make sure you can afford it.
Game balance isn't broken (in this case), your ability to keep a budget through use of basic math skills is broken. |
Ender 22
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 03:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Corvus Ravensong wrote:Dude, if you just lost all your shiny little toys in a match, you are supposed to either 1. stroll over to the market and replace them, or 2. play a couple matches in some militia or cheap gear so that you can afford your proto gear again.
What you are probably not supposed to do is 1. cry about losing all your proto gear (shows you weren't really ready to use it) or 2. run all proto gear w/o checking your wallet 1st to make sure you can afford it.
Game balance isn't broken (in this case), your ability to keep a budget through use of basic math skills is broken.
It should be mentioned that I'm not losing all my shiny gear. I'm rolling in advanced and am staying at the same amount of isk (5.2 mil). I'm not fighting this for the good players I'm fighting this for the new players the players who we hope will join the game, like it and play it forever.
I'm not investing my time to unlock stuff that I can't use until i hopefully get a ton of money from an eve player.
I'll wait until CCP mentions something specific before i make any more rash decisions
EDIT: What I'm worried about is the end game. The thing that makes the grind worth while. The "fun" reward of working through all the levels
I'm sorry if you can't look at a serious discussion about the flow of money in this game.
Further have you played on a team that pushed hard for the first engagement the would never push again because people don't want to lose their gear? Great for epic mega fights... Bad for the weekend warrior |
Kleanur Guy
SyNergy Gaming
154
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 08:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
To all the people that say 'use militia gear!' you obviously have no idea what your saying. I understand what your saying OP. The 'end game' in a lot of games are very hard to get right, especially when one guy gets a lot of other people to feed items to him (not the case in dust though). CCP has said that Dust Mercs are reckless with their lives, they know they are going to be respawned again and so don't care how much pain they go through in the one they are in now. They are reckless with their gear. When you think of it, in most games, as the gear gets more expensive, there is very marginal gain. In some games, expensive gear is simply so you can kill more people than you could with the one previously. This could be used tactically, rolling in groups of highly geared, very expensive however a very powerful and unstoppable force.
You also need to think about the amount of money you are sucking off the people you kill. In games where you don't pick up anything when you die, ofcourse both players that die will be in the red, however it is whoever can respawn with the same gear, and kill someone with perhaps a worse fit than before, will be the one on top. I base my profits in most of the games I play, off how much I can take off my opponent, and that's what I think CCP want us to do. If you vs another proto suiter much like yourself, and your better/have a better fit and kill him the next 3 times, he won't go back in proto. He would probly come back as advanced making him easier to kill for both you, and less of a threat to your TEAM.
Ofcourse when 2 players in equally fitted suits vs each other in a firefight, one of them knows they are going to die, unless he brings in another person with a 4mil tank (dunno what a good tanks price is havent played in a bit). Now you woud probly expect to take out at least 50 or so people over multiple games with that tank(depending on how many people you have rolling with you) with support. Over those 2 or 3 games, you make about 1 mil ISK from matches, and you just lost a 4mil tank, however of those 50 people you killed, 7 of them were protos, 31 were advanced and the rest were standard or militia. Think of all the money you sucked away from the people you killed. 31x75k advanced fits = 2.3ish mil. 7x200k proto fits is 1.4mil. With this alone you just made 700k EFFECTIVE ISK
I can't stress that word enough, I believe that is what this game's economy will be about, it's not about how much you lose, but about how much your opponent loses. |
Traynor Youngs
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
287
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 17:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
In Eve, the best sub capital ships are T2 Battleships or T3 cruisers....well best is kind of a misnomer in Eve, but you get the idea. The thing is, if people in Eve always fought in the BEST thing they could fit...they would always be broke.
So they cut costs by using cheaper mods on more expensive ships or T2 mods on cheap ships or some combination. Its all about what YOU can afford to lose, thats what you fight in.
So if you get a prototype suit and you can't afford to lose it, don't use it.
If you really want, mix things up, use a prototype assault rifle with a militia heavy drop suit... if thats how you make money and use your skills effectively, then thats how you do it.
It is true that a lot of FPS gamers are going to be frustrated with DUST at first because they are used to having no reason not to use the shiniest toys they have unlocked. Eve and Dust are not like that.
Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. |
Dante Daedrik
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 18:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
Granted in EVE you dont constantly respawn in your shiny ship among enemy forces. Ships in EVE have longer survivability and life expectancy than a dropsuit in Dust and therefor the risk = the reward. |
Traynor Youngs
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
287
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 18:43:00 -
[27] - Quote
Dante Daedrik wrote:Granted in EVE you dont constantly respawn in your shiny ship among enemy forces. Ships in EVE have longer survivability and life expectancy than a dropsuit in Dust and therefor the risk = the reward.
The survivability of ships in Eve versus survivability of Mercs in Dust is apples and oranges for the reason that you stated.
However, the ISK cost vs marginal utility of better equipment is still a viable argument to make. Regardless of how often you die in Eve, if you fly what you can't afford to lose, then you will be broke. The same holds true in Dust, if you constantly use suits that you can't afford to lose a lot, then you will be broke. The only difference is perhaps the Dust version should be "Don't fly what you can't afford to be spawn camped in" |
SILENTSAM 69
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
421
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 19:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
The title of the post and content seem so different to me. That or the person who made the post was really drunk and not thinking straight.
Thanks to DUST players needing ISK DUST 514 will be a great ISK sink for EVE. We hear EVE players talking about just dumping loads of ISK on DUST players. This is a great thing of course because it will start the flow of ISK out of EVE and into DUST 514. |
Seraph Azriel
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 19:46:00 -
[29] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:theschizogenious wrote:used full militia died alot made 500k isk your argument is invalid have a nice day You made no point at all. I almost want to link that one YouTube video... In any case, you just missed the whole idea completely. The point was that you can skill up for higher level gear, but you can't make enough ISK to cover it unless you can ensure you never get killed. So here are my two cents, there are so many skills that arn't designed around getting better gear but improving the stuff you have. In fact I would be willing to bet that if I had 5 assault rifle proficiency with a militia rifle I would do better than some twink using aur rifles beyond their level. The same goes for fitting skills and the shield.armor skills and suits. I would take a type 2 suit with all of the passive skills vs a a horde of aur proto suits and guns. EVE players know that it isn't enough to be able to fly a ship if you don't have the skills that make it effective. Proto suits will have their place in faction/contract fights, lets remember that the contracts will be made by pilots with a vested interest in making sure you have everything you need to get the job done. They want that planet, they need to pay you to do it. As someone said wars are fought with billions of isk going up in a single fight, trust me when I say, they will make sure that you have everything you need if paying you an extra hundred million isk to make sure that the planet is taken that could be the tipping point in the next fight pilots have. |
Seraph Azriel
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 19:48:00 -
[30] - Quote
Traynor Youngs wrote:Dante Daedrik wrote:Granted in EVE you dont constantly respawn in your shiny ship among enemy forces. Ships in EVE have longer survivability and life expectancy than a dropsuit in Dust and therefor the risk = the reward. The survivability of ships in Eve versus survivability of Mercs in Dust is apples and oranges for the reason that you stated. However, the ISK cost vs marginal utility of better equipment is still a viable argument to make. Regardless of how often you die in Eve, if you fly what you can't afford to lose, then you will be broke. The same holds true in Dust, if you constantly use suits that you can't afford to lose a lot, then you will be broke. The only difference is perhaps the Dust version should be "Don't fly what you can't afford to be spawn camped in" On the subject of spawn camping, with the changes in logistics suits, if your team is being spawn camped (and it's working) it is the fault of the team. The team is either carelessly picking spawn sites, or logis aren't doing their job. |
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