DUST Search - Precursor changes (Logistics, Breach rifles, RE's, and more!)

Nova Knife wrote:

First : Logistics repair tools having 360 degree range after lock. You won't need to keep looking at someone after locking them.

This is utterly horrible. It promotes 'lazy logi' and turns logistics from something that takes effort and skill into something super easy... maybe too easy to do. If you want to repair someone you should have to take the effort to keep them in your field of view. Talking to CCP dudes it seemed like it was a change done because not enough people were using the repair tools. I highly dispute that this fix was the proper one. The issue with repair tools was simple. A logistics player simply did not get enough points compared to combat focussed players. There was no real incentive to use them, especially since there was no real reason to care about winning or team play in the beta when all everyone wants is skillpoints. If a logistics player received assists when someone they are repairing scores a kill, they would get much more points and there would be an incentive to use them. People want stats. So if you want people to use support items, there needs to be a stat for it. But a 360 arc is just horribly unfun and unfair, speaking as someone who used the repair tools a lot for the past 5-6 months.

On a related note : 10% hack bonus on logistics suit. This is a pretty unproductive bonus. A logistics dude should be getting a bonus more suited to his role, which is team support. I could see this bonus being on a scout suit, which is more suited to getting in quickly, and hacking before the enemy can respond. Logistic suits should get a bonus related to repair + resupply. I think someone else made a decent post about this (Sorry I forget your name) Suggesting that logistics should get a bonus to repair amount or range, or faster resupply rate with nanohives, or more nanite capacity with nanohives, stuff like that.

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Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 789	Posted - 2012.08.11 21:02:00 - [1] - Quote First : Logistics repair tools having 360 degree range after lock. You won't need to keep looking at someone after locking them. This is utterly horrible. It promotes 'lazy logi' and turns logistics from something that takes effort and skill into something super easy... maybe too easy to do. If you want to repair someone you should have to take the effort to keep them in your field of view. Talking to CCP dudes it seemed like it was a change done because not enough people were using the repair tools. I highly dispute that this fix was the proper one. The issue with repair tools was simple. A logistics player simply did not get enough points compared to combat focussed players. There was no real incentive to use them, especially since there was no real reason to care about winning or team play in the beta when all everyone wants is skillpoints. If a logistics player received assists when someone they are repairing scores a kill, they would get much more points and there would be an incentive to use them. People want stats. So if you want people to use support items, there needs to be a stat for it. But a 360 arc is just horribly unfun and unfair, speaking as someone who used the repair tools a lot for the past 5-6 months. On a related note : 10% hack bonus on logistics suit. This is a pretty unproductive bonus. A logistics dude should be getting a bonus more suited to his role, which is team support. I could see this bonus being on a scout suit, which is more suited to getting in quickly, and hacking before the enemy can respond. Logistic suits should get a bonus related to repair + resupply. I think someone else made a decent post about this (Sorry I forget your name) Suggesting that logistics should get a bonus to repair amount or range, or faster resupply rate with nanohives, or more nanite capacity with nanohives, stuff like that. Second : Remote explosives. This is a touchy issue. And it all depends on what CCP even intended their role to be. Are they supposed to be traps? Are they supposed to be AV, or used against structures? We've never really gotten an answer. However, aside from the obviously broken RE grenade spamming, these were amazingly useful as anti-vehicle and anti-infantry traps. The reduced throw distance and arming time are excellent changes. It prevents them from being spammed and stops them from being used as grenades. However, a blanket reduction on the amount you can carry is a horrible change. While it is true you can use a nanohive to still place down five of these, as they are replenished... This is simply not good enough! The change seriously hinders any attempts to use them as AV traps. You should not need to camp on a nanohive with RE's to use them to injure or finish off a vehicle. I'm sort of against any player solo'ing a high end tank, but these traps (5 RE's in a group on a road they are fleeing down) were very useful for severely wounding or finishing off a tank. This will not really be viable after this change. If CCP never intended RE's to be used against vehicles I can understand, and the sticky AV grenades + nanohive might make up for, or even become a better counter. But it does beg the question of what the purpose of RE's even is now. Third : Breach assault Rifle nerf This is a good step, but it was the wrong nerf. The breach rifle's damage was pretty fine. The thing that needed to be changed was the hipfire bonus. I'm not even sure this bonus should exist. It's very powerful, and if it needs to be there, It should be on the tactical rifle or the burst variants. I'd even be happy with the accuracy bonus being lessened slightly The reason a hipfire bonus is so powerful, is because aiming down the sights slows you down slightly. Less mobility means less survivability. A breach weapon bypasses this and allows you to stay highly mobile and still remain able to put the majority of your bullets on target. This is a massive advantage against other players who need to slow themselves down to aim at you. This is also the reason why the majority of people use the breach weapons. It has little to do with the damage, and a lot to do with the ease of aiming and increased survivability.
Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2012.08.11 22:43:00 - [2] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: First : Logistics repair tools having 360 degree range after lock. You won't need to keep looking at someone after locking them. This is utterly horrible. It promotes 'lazy logi' and turns logistics from something that takes effort and skill into something super easy... maybe too easy to do. If you want to repair someone you should have to take the effort to keep them in your field of view. Talking to CCP dudes it seemed like it was a change done because not enough people were using the repair tools. I highly dispute that this fix was the proper one. The issue with repair tools was simple. A logistics player simply did not get enough points compared to combat focussed players. There was no real incentive to use them, especially since there was no real reason to care about winning or team play in the beta when all everyone wants is skillpoints. If a logistics player received assists when someone they are repairing scores a kill, they would get much more points and there would be an incentive to use them. People want stats. So if you want people to use support items, there needs to be a stat for it. But a 360 arc is just horribly unfun and unfair, speaking as someone who used the repair tools a lot for the past 5-6 months. On a related note : 10% hack bonus on logistics suit. This is a pretty unproductive bonus. A logistics dude should be getting a bonus more suited to his role, which is team support. I could see this bonus being on a scout suit, which is more suited to getting in quickly, and hacking before the enemy can respond. Logistic suits should get a bonus related to repair + resupply. I think someone else made a decent post about this (Sorry I forget your name) Suggesting that logistics should get a bonus to repair amount or range, or faster resupply rate with nanohives, or more nanite capacity with nanohives, stuff like that. On this, I take umbrage my good sir! The ability to look in a 360 degree arc (AKA all around the player) is a necessary ability. Let me point you to the role of Medic in TF2. The Medic need only lock his target to begin healing him, then he may continue until he either loses his Line of Sight or the target gets too far away. Because he doesn't need to stare at the target's ass, he can be on the lookout for other enemies, ambushes, etc.. If all he had to do was stare at someone's ass, he would be the very definition of a 'lazy logi'. As for the assists, yes I think you should receive bonus for assists, to draw another Medic comparison, it is where he gets most of his points, just from healing the target as he gets a kill. As for hacking, that IS support. Although giving scouts the hack rate in lieu of Logi getting repair rate bonuses, think of it this way: you and a logibro get to A. Whomever is hacking can't be fighting. Who would do the hack? The support unit or the combat unit? ...yes, I refer to Medic a lot, I used him exclusively, ok?
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.11 22:51:00 - [3] - Quote 1) I mostly agree with you on this point but I think they just wanted to give the logi some much needed love perhaps it was too much I am undecided as of now. 2) My biggest issue with REs was always the throw distance and instant detonation. I literally saw some of those going nearly 20m over behind me over my head its just nuts. They may have over nerfed them we will have to see. 3) Now the breach is near and dear to my heart it just tends to fit my needs most of the time. I fully believe that damage was the wrong stat to nerf. It already very low DPS even considering its higher accuracy. I will have to play he new build and see just how bad it was.
D Park 26	Posted - 2012.08.11 23:35:00 - [4] - Quote Here is the logistics link I suspect Nova was referring to in the OP. Mmkk333's Logistics Post
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.12 00:02:00 - [5] - Quote Scouts have enough going for them and their scouts not forward troops or front line infintry they are light weight fast moving suits the logi on the other hand is a mass of computing power and outlets he is your tech guy so of course he would have the extra cpu to help hack where has a scouts suit wouldnt have the computer its design focusing on physical functions (movement) the logi 10% bonus is ok if they do it like eve were some suit varition are better at one thing or the other for example a logi suit varition could have 15% less hacking time more cpu and less pg to fit extra hacking modules making him the ultimante hack. The damage was the exact problem with the breach, it is a weapon meant to be hipfire for those pesky breaching situations where hipfire is important.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.12 00:49:00 - [6] - Quote Creo breach AR DPS Damage 57.1 RoF 404 DPS = 380 Militia AR Damage 30 Rof 750 DPS = 375 The damage per hit is a lot higher but since it always takes multiple shots to kill the enemy damage over time becomes far more important than single hit. Note: these numbers do not include skill and assume that every shot hits. Was damage really the problem or a lack of kick when firing the entire clip without stopping. I believe that perhaps a better way to balance the breach would be to make the kick increase slowly the longer you fire.uninterrupted. Meaning you wont hit near as often if you don't fire in controlled burst. Far more eloquent than just yanking the damage off of it.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.12 00:56:00 - [7] - Quote Bones1182 wrote: Creo breach AR DPS Damage 57.1 RoF 404 DPS = 380 Militia AR Damage 30 Rof 750 DPS = 375 The damage per hit is a lot higher but since it always takes multiple shots to kill the enemy damage over time becomes far more important than single hit. Note: these numbers do not include skill and assume that every shot hits. Was damage really the problem or a lack of kick when firing the entire clip without stopping. I believe that perhaps a better way to balance the breach would be to make the kick increase slowly the longer you fire.uninterrupted. Meaning you wont hit near as often if you don't fire in controlled burst. Far more eloquent than just yanking the damage off of it. Yeah kick would probably have helped but the breach had the highest damage of any gun even more than the tactical I think lowering below the tactical sense the other a simi automatic is better for balance.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 789	Posted - 2012.08.12 01:41:00 - [8] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: On this, I take umbrage my good sir! The ability to look in a 360 degree arc (AKA all around the player) is a necessary ability. Let me point you to the role of Medic in TF2. The Medic need only lock his target to begin healing him, then he may continue until he either loses his Line of Sight or the target gets too far away. Because he doesn't need to stare at the target's ass, he can be on the lookout for other enemies, ambushes, etc.. If all he had to do was stare at someone's ass, he would be the very definition of a 'lazy logi'. As for the assists, yes I think you should receive bonus for assists, to draw another Medic comparison, it is where he gets most of his points, just from healing the target as he gets a kill. As for hacking, that IS support. Although giving scouts the hack rate in lieu of Logi getting repair rate bonuses, think of it this way: you and a logibro get to A. Whomever is hacking can't be fighting. Who would do the hack? The support unit or the combat unit? ...yes, I refer to Medic a lot, I used him exclusively, ok? How is having the logi player able to ignore the dude(s) he is repairing and actively watch for flankers a good thing? I am firmly against anything that removes the possibility of flanking. A person repairing another should be focussing their attention on their target. I also forgot to mention in my OP that hacking gets this same problem. As it is now... You can easily flank someone while they hack. They need to have teammates watching their back. With the new patch, you can easily start the hack then turn around, and it is no longer possible for them to flank you. You can easily stop your hack, kill them and then restart it. That is -very- bad and discourages team play.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.12 01:44:00 - [9] - Quote Damage over time greater than single hit damage. Fact. Every other AR has higher DPS than the same tier breach and most have higher DPS than the creo regardless of tier the exception is the militia and standard AR, and this are just barely beaten by the creo. Ooh 5 whole damage points that is so much power. One stat I have not yet seen and I expect to is optimal and fall off ranges. They give you effective which I suppose could be optimal but I am not sure. Maybe reducing the effective range of the breach to 30m currently it is 55m if I remember correctly. Now matter how you look at it already does less dps than almost any other AR and reducing it further will damn make it worthless with the lower RoF.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.12 02:16:00 - [10] - Quote How much are they lowering it?

Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2012.08.12 02:31:00 - [11] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: On this, I take umbrage my good sir! The ability to look in a 360 degree arc (AKA all around the player) is a necessary ability. Let me point you to the role of Medic in TF2. The Medic need only lock his target to begin healing him, then he may continue until he either loses his Line of Sight or the target gets too far away. Because he doesn't need to stare at the target's ass, he can be on the lookout for other enemies, ambushes, etc.. If all he had to do was stare at someone's ass, he would be the very definition of a 'lazy logi'. As for the assists, yes I think you should receive bonus for assists, to draw another Medic comparison, it is where he gets most of his points, just from healing the target as he gets a kill. As for hacking, that IS support. Although giving scouts the hack rate in lieu of Logi getting repair rate bonuses, think of it this way: you and a logibro get to A. Whomever is hacking can't be fighting. Who would do the hack? The support unit or the combat unit? ...yes, I refer to Medic a lot, I used him exclusively, ok? How is having the logi player able to ignore the dude(s) he is repairing and actively watch for flankers a good thing? I am firmly against anything that removes the possibility of flanking. A person repairing another should be focussing their attention on their target. I also forgot to mention in my OP that hacking gets this same problem. As it is now... You can easily flank someone while they hack. They need to have teammates watching their back. With the new patch, you can easily start the hack then turn around, and it is no longer possible for them to flank you. You can easily stop your hack, kill them and then restart it. That is -very- bad and discourages team play. So you want the Logi's entire existence to be 'watching heavy ass.... watching assault ass.... dead because a scout snuck up behind me.... watching assault ass.... dead due to the dropship I couldn't see cuz I can't turn...' That isn't a Logistic Merc, that's an Armor Repair Drone. He isn't ignoring the guy he is healing. Watch ONE Medic play a round of TF2, and you will see it's his job to both remain aware of the patient, while watching for Scouts who want to pick him off, Spies (Scout suits with shotguns) who want to stab his patient, and Snipers who want to keep him in line-of-sight. With the ability to turn, you have the role of extra eyes, intel gathering, and awareness beyond someone's ass. Also, if you're against ANYTHING that hurts flanking, maybe we should nerf the ability to turn, make it so you can either go forward or change facing :P Also, I don't much care for the hacking 360 thing, probably added it because people kept turning too much and killed their hack, but if a Logi is hacking your point, it is BECAUSE HE AND HIS TARGET GOT THERE. So who hacks? The guy with the minigun, or the guy with the SMG? Then the HMG weilder is, as you put it, the 'teammate... watching their back.' Plus, as someone pointed out earlier Logi is Logistics, he is covered in computers so he has the best inherent equipment for the job. Seriously, the Repair Tool is shaping up to be exactly like a TF2 Medigun. Go play that free game, or watch a youtube video of a decent Medic, see exactly how 'horrible' it is that he can turn while healing. You will get no sympathy from me Mr. Knife.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.12 02:54:00 - [12] - Quote Didnt realize there was going to be 360 hacking that kinda stupid I think it ahouldnt stop if you move a bit to the right but it shouldnt be 360 I need to be able to aee the computer stuff to type or do anything why should it be diffrent?
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.12 03:25:00 - [13] - Quote I am not sure about the medic 360 thing. I tend to agree that being able to look around while repairing is a good thing. The logistics merc would still have to pay attention to the guy he is repping just to keep him in range. I also agree that it is less fun to have to stare at someones ass all day. I agree with the change to the RE's. I do not agree with the 360 hack. If you are hacking, you should be vulnerable as this rewards team play.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 789	Posted - 2012.08.12 04:12:00 - [14] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: Seriously, the Repair Tool is shaping up to be exactly like a TF2 Medigun. Go play that free game, or watch a youtube video of a decent Medic, see exactly how 'horrible' it is that he can turn while healing. You will get no sympathy from me Mr. Knife. I've played TF2. I was very happy that logistics players actually had to dedicate themselves. Now CCP is flip-flopping and I highly disapprove. You should have a teammate watching your logibro's back, while the logibro watches their backs! And in reality, you're pretty much never going to save someone with the repair tool if they are taking fire from anyone who can aim. Even now the best way to play logi is to follow your dudes and actually help them by shooting and then repairing any damage inflicted during the firefight afterwards. You're not going to stop a nonheavy suit from dying in 90% of firefights anyways, unless the dude you are fixing is -really- good at strafing. So yes, I would like logistics dudes to be paying attention to their teammates while they are repairing them. It has worked great for almost a year now.. Why fix what isn't broke? Also.. I hear talk from CCP about how the repair tool might be a limited use item by them giving it 'ammo' that decreases as you use it. I think that is a bad change. Adding an accumulating overheat though? Definitely. The gun can be a little overpowered in some cases if you've got a chance to have it going nonstop on someone decent enough to avoid fire. Making it overheat after 20-30 seconds or so with like a 15 second cooldown would not be amiss.
Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2012.08.12 04:26:00 - [15] - Quote One more thing on the 360 ability for the repair tool. They may add multi target ones. Imagine the hassle of using a multi target repper if you can't have them all stand in front of you, relatively still, while you may go under fire any minute.
IR Scifi Algintal Core Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2012.08.12 04:52:00 - [16] - Quote Having pretty much played logibro exclusively this last patch cycle I have to kind of agree with Nova on the lock radius. Once I get a lock as long as they are in my field of view and within {%magic number} range I should be able to keep healing. One note however, the locking mechanism feels really fiddily (just like the swarm launchers do sometime). If I have someone in my sights and locked it will occasionally drop lock or worse yet fail to lock in the first place unless I am pointed 100% directly at them. A bit more forgiving target box would be nice. And I will stab someone in the face if they change the repair tool to a limited use item. Seriously it's hard enough sometimes keeping heavy dudes alive and now you'd ask to keep track of ammo too? Regarding the 360 hack is it you can face any direction when hacking or are they just removing the restriction that you have to be right in front of the terminal and say any side of the objective is fair game?
Minmatar Slave 74136 Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 291	Posted - 2012.08.12 05:22:00 - [17] - Quote i don't agree with the 360 degree repair system when the one we have works fine for the most part, if your tool released a bloom of repair nanites then thats one thing - but thats why we have rep hives. dunno about the 360 degree hack system yet, you still have to hold the button for the hack to go through. it would make sense if you initiated the hack by pressing the button once until it started and then were free to turn and shoot, but have to stay by the hacked area (while the suit's onboard computer did the negoiating with the host and hack job) I'd give the scouts the hack system, while logi guys like us got more deployable toys to play with.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 789	Posted - 2012.08.12 07:09:00 - [18] - Quote Glad to see people who have played logi agree with me! As for the hack thing - You will need to start the hack at the terminal and stay in the same spot, but you will be free to turn around while you are holding circle, preventing anyone from sneaking up behind you while you are hacking. Which is bad! You should be totally vulnerable to people sneaking up on you while you hack. This is why we have teammates, to protect our hackers!
Etero Narciss Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 112	Posted - 2012.08.12 08:59:00 - [19] - Quote Actually, if you think about it, being able to turn around while hacking makes all the sense in the world. You're not actually hacking a computer with your hands; I'm pretty sure that cortex thing will be used to give the hacking a more visual style (or at least, they should). I don't see the issue with this thing honestly. Even if you can't sneak up on them, the fact that you're interrupting their hack is good enough; the point of sneaking up on them is to stop them from hacking after all, if in a more permanent fashion. I don't know how to take the RE nerf, especially the total amount that I can carry. I like to use RE's as traps for objectives after all, but I'll wait and see. Same for the Breach.


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