Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Arthur Tavares
The Red Guards
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 13:57:00 -
[31] - Quote
John Darkdevil Lester wrote:Saul Deschain wrote:
I agree with EVICER. We shouldn't have to jump through a bunch of hoops to play a stable game. If I wanted to do all the geek stuff I'd play games on a PC.
The both of you are not too bright. This is a beta, if you did not want to do any of the *geek stuff* then you should not have joined the beta in the first place. The point of a beta is not for you to play a game early, it is to help the developer find everything that is wrong with the game so they can try to fix it. The game was never marketed as stable, it was marketed as Closed Beta - Work in progress. And to EVICER, you did not pay for the game, you paid for the Merc Pack which gave you items to use in the game and got beta access in the process. So technically you did not buy a game. If you expect the game to work flawlessly then quit playing games entirely because a flawless game does not exist.
If the point of the beta is for you to give your feedback and that is what he did hen he did it |
Xiree
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
55
|
Posted - 2012.09.29 09:55:00 -
[32] - Quote
Dreylor Thunderfall wrote:
\ \Xiree -- DMZ is a made up word. A firewall-less connection isn't DMZ. \
Dreylor Thunderfall --
DMZ = Demilitarized Zone... It is not a made up word... it is an area outside of your firewall... we usually use this for setting up honeypot traps for idiots who want to try to hack into a network. Also a few servers sit outside the firewall in the DMZ for full access... I wouldn't suggest putting your PS3 in the DMZ as you could possibly end up susceptible to DoS (Denial of Service) attacks. The DMZ exists between your Modem (connection to your ISP, regardless of who they are or what type it is) and the Switch half of your Router gear (the other ports that you plug your computer, or other network gear into).
again... it is outside the firewall
Xiree -- \Static IP, is YOUR NETMASK. IT is not tunneling your connectivity through port 80, exempting the netmask. \ \You are telling people how to port-forward... \ \If you want faster connectivity... Port Forwarding wouldn't increase anything. Cable sucks, DSL is better. \
Dreylor Thunderfall -- Netmask: the term "Netmask" is most often associated with subnet masking. (For most home users your subnet mask is 255.255.255.0) it tells the network devices which messages to listen to and which to ignore. Those that are allowed "fall through" the mask (it ends up comparing binary values within the packet headers... yeah I know... this is pretty deep geekery... but i hate it when people throw around buzzwords... like a lizard puffing up a dewlap trying to look impressive)
Netmask is a static-ip feature
ONCE again though... DMZ is made up....
Sorry for the delay, of my response -- I just wanted to see how many sites started to start using DMZ.
But your lil, theory of DMZ.... See there is an actual name for those " it is an area outside of your firewall" as you call them.
They are called, SWITCHES. Switches are those nodes that direct traffic outside your firewall. Many spoofers use proxies to attempt to make their proxy look like their host.
But it is really easy to exempt them and find actual DNS info. Proxy servers, are often used to try to spoof connectivity, but those who use them... Often do not know what an PROXY-server is actually for. |
madd mudd
41
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 16:15:00 -
[33] - Quote
is there new port forwarding for the new server??? |
Hellfire 99
The Nommo Insurance Fraud.
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 19:23:00 -
[34] - Quote
EVICER wrote:Patches The Hyena wrote:Lol at Evicer, SCEA is going to refund you what? The $20 merc pack you bought that also gave beta access? You sir make me laugh.
Also you make console users sound like retards, please stop. If you want to use electronics and the internet effectively some basic knowledge is required and port forwarding is incredibly simple. All you have to do is Google your router and port forwarding and you'll get step by step instructions, then again its easy to figure out yourself.
However you stated you don't have a router, you're NAT 1 based on what you describe and have no need for port forwarding.
On topic, thanks for posting the exact ports needed. Much appreciated! First of all I **** 20 dollars.Its the principle of selling something. That being "software".Software that does not work correctly.Does not run or is damaging my hardware. Secondly I own my Domain name.Pay for my website.Rent a server on BF3(90 days at a time).Own the platinum pack for said game spend 20 dollars a week at least on PS Home.I am a playstation plus user. $$$$ my point is if they fix this game they can have it.....Do not, and receive not. Finally you stated " you're NAT 1 based on what you describe and have no need for port forwarding." So how is this post gonna help anyone?If I'm running straight from my modem and the game still refuses to play....how is this helpfull.Why not take care of the problem at the source instead of directing people to a work around?
i must say.... if you read the terms of use/eula, and the confidentiality agreement, then you would know that:
(just read what i have bolded/underlined)
"11. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY
The Software, System, Game and all Game Content, and all other services and material provided in connection therewith, are provided "AS IS," with all faults, and without warranty of any kind. You assume all risk of use and all risk associated with accessing the System and playing the Game.
CCP disclaims all warranties, whether express or implied, including without limitation the warranties of merchantability, fitness for particular purpose and non-infringement. There is no warranty against interference with your enjoyment of the Game. CCP does not warrant that the operation of the System or your access to the System, or that your use of the Software, will be uninterrupted or error-free, nor that the System or Software will be compatible with your hardware and software. In the event of a malfunction of or your inability to use the Software you have downloaded, your sole and exclusive remedy shall be a replacement download, and CCP shall have no liability for the faulty download.
In no event shall CCP, its affiliates, licensors or suppliers be liable to you or to any third party for any special, indirect, incidental, consequential, punitive or exemplary damages (including without limitation, lost profits or lost or corrupted data), arising out of or in connection with your Account, the System, Software, Game, Game Content, User Content, EULA, or any other services or materials provided in connection therewith, whether based on warranty, contract, tort or any other legal theory, and whether or not CCP is advised of the possibility of such damages, and even if any stated remedy fails of its essential purpose.
Except as set forth below, CCP's maximum liability for any and all claims arising out of or in connection with your Account, the Software, System, Game, Game Content, User Content, EVE Online-«, EVE Content, EULA, and any other services or materials provided in connection therewith, shall not exceed an amount equal to the value of one (1) month's subscription fees. In the event of a material breach of CCP's obligations to provide access to and use of your Account, the System, Game, Game Content or User Content, your sole and exclusive remedy shall be a refund of any pre-paid subscription fees attributable to the period during which you were denied such access and use, or an amount equal to the value of three (3) months' subscription fees, whichever is less.
Nothing in this EULA shall limit any party's liability in respect of fraud, death, personal injury, or anything else in respect of which liability may not be limited as a matter of law. If any of the foregoing disclaimers or limitations of liability in this Section 11 or elsewhere in the EULA are declared to be void or unenforceable, then CCP's liability shall be limited to the maximum extent permissible under applicable law. The remedies set forth herein are exclusive and in lieu of all other remedies, oral or written, express or implied.
12. INDEMNITY
You shall defend, indemnify and hold harmless CCP and its affiliates, licensors and suppliers, and their respective employees, contractors, officers and directors, from any and all claims, loss, damages and demands, including reasonable attorneys' fees, arising out of: (i) your use or misuse of the Software; (ii) your access to the System; (iii) any activities conducted through your Account (whether by you or another person); and (iv) your playing of the Game."
so, in conclusion, if you dont like what dust does to your ps3, then dont play. or better yet, maybe read the EULA before you blindly click agree and install.
this makes me lol-> That being "software".Software that does not work correctly.Does not run or is damaging my hardware. (READ SECTION 11 AND 12) |
Fek'Larr
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 16:18:00 -
[35] - Quote
Well i like the game, and as a former EVE player one first to play EVE online CCP is doing the best they can and thats all we can ask. for the people having console issues i agree, but the EULA is what it is. it took alittle while after EVE was released to get as good as it is so with that said we all need to relax alittle cause they do alittle more then we are aware of. take it easy on the programers guys they do see and know whats going on it takes time and alot of it for things to get done correctly.
And if you dont agree with what ive said.... if anyone thinks they can do a better job at programing or fixing these issues ask the DEVs for a job.
Thank you CCP for doing your best cause it aint easy |
Miss Verjan
Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 22:57:00 -
[36] - Quote
Alright, I have a side issue on top of the main issue. I finally got the IP stuff somewhat resolved, but wait...there's more...how do I get them to work for more than one person? I have 2 people playing at the same time on 1 router. His and hers type of deal.
How in the world do I get both mics to work?
I kept playing with the settings and I can get one to work, but the 2nd doesn't. The one that does hook up, only works when in group. In lobby or in game, but outside of the squad, not even crickets.
This has been very frustrating to say the least, but we are both eager to play and have played on the same router for other MMOs in the past.
PLEASE HELP!!! |
Enderr Wigginn
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
57
|
Posted - 2012.10.06 21:10:00 -
[37] - Quote
GM Unicorn wrote:Hi guys, Those are the ports that should be open on your router/firewall in order to properly connect to DUST 514
Backend communication needs TCP 443 and 80.
Battle server communications needs UDP 20000-21000.
Voice communication needs UDP 12000-13000.
When I am port forwarding TCP 443 and 80 what field am I entering the # into "port from" or "port to" ? |
SOMBRA del MUERTE
The Exemplars
2
|
Posted - 2012.10.06 22:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
THANKS!.... I haven't had a crash or major bug since doing this. |
Kal Jedek
Doomheim
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.28 01:08:00 -
[39] - Quote
I'd just like to reiterate something:
You can't use port 443 and port 80 for your backend (you morons), those ports are used for web traffic.
I run a webserver, so I cant forward port 80 to my ps3, it's being used by my server.
This explains *so* much. I do hope you will change the ports before you release dust. |
Gage Bouren
KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 00:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
GM Unicorn wrote:Hi guys, Those are the ports that should be open on your router/firewall in order to properly connect to DUST 514
Backend communication needs TCP 443 and 80.
Battle server communications needs UDP 20000-21000.
Voice communication needs UDP 12000-13000.
I HAVE A I38HG 2WIRE ROUTER AND WHEN I CHOOSE MY PS3 TO HOST APPLICATIONS THROUGH THE FIREWALL THERE'S A APLLICATION SPECIFIC TAB WITH STUFF LIKE INTERNET RELAY COMMUNICATION AND THINGS LIKE THAT WICH ON DO I NEED TO PICK IN ORDER FOR IT TO FUNCTION PROPERLY BECUASE I REFUSE TO USE DMZ! |
|
Wakko03
Better Hide R Die
134
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 01:09:00 -
[41] - Quote
GM Unicorn wrote:Option #2
From a post of Sees-Too-Much, how to set up a DMZ in your router.
1. Logging into your router 1.1 Enter router IP into your web browser. 1.1.1 Router IP varies with the router. Mine is 192.168.1.1, but others will be 192.168.1.0 or 192.168.0.1. If you aren't sure simply google the make/model of your router and you should find a a manual that knows it. 1.1.2 Your router will request a password. By default this is usually "admin"/"admin", ""/"admin", or "admin"/"". You can google your make/model to find out what the default is. 1.1.2.1 If you changed it and don't remember what it is your router will have a reset button which, when pushed, will reset all settings, including login/pass, to factory defaults. 1.2 Find your DHCP settings 1.2.1 For my router this is on the initial page (basic setup). 1.3 It will have a range or starting point for IP addresses. Mine is a starting point of 192.168.1.100. Take note of this value and make sure whatever this range is does not include all possible addresses. By having a starting point of 100 My DHCP range is 100-255, for example. Set your range so that at least one value other than the router's IP cannot be assigned by DHCP.
2. Setting up a static IP for your PS3 2.1 In your PS3 main menu find settings->network settings->internet connection settings 2.1.1 Custom setting method 2.1.2 Continue as appropriate until you get to IP Address Settings 2.1.2.1 Select Manual 2.1.2.2 Set the IP address to something outside of the DHCP range you set in 1.3. 2.1.2.3 Set the default router to the router IP address. This is the same thing you put in your web browser in 1.1. 2.1.2.4 Set the Primary DNS to the router IP address. 2.1.3 Handle MTU and Proxy server settings however you normally would. 2.1.4 Set UPnP to disabled 2.1.5 Save and test connection.
3. Changing router settings 3.1 Disable UPnP in your router 3.1.1 For me this is under the "administration" tab. 3.2 Set DMZ to the IP you selected in 2.1.2.2 3.2.1 DMZ will be found under "port forwarding" or "applications". Something like that. My router calls it "Applications & Gaming".
YOU are going to have to give more information for this other than you got it from Sees-too-Much's post.
1 (in general). Is a complex way of going about this, and is a little dated but will work for most of it, however if you set the number of users to how many devices you have connected to the internet via wired or wireless, you reduce the risk of your neighbors stealing your connection.... also most routers I have come across in the last 2 years have something called DHCP Reservation.
2. Is fine until you mention disable UPnP, yeah... this is the part I have a problem with....can you eleborate why you possibly want to disable UPnP? Did NAT translation suddenly disappear...we still have to go thru the PSN/SEN portal...which if you try it without UPnP available it runs like a laggy mess.
3. Again, most routers built in the last 2 years have a feature that allows a user to set the device to the DMZ by the MAC Address, much safer than by the IP address. |
new hulk
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
49
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 20:02:00 -
[42] - Quote
Here is my problem, i played since.the first build everyone was having lag issues and rarely had lag issues lately though i have horibal lag same internet provider same everything, and all i get is it's just a beta, lol it's frustrating in game i go from no lag to hard frame freeze to wores hard locking so why is the port thong so important now when befor it wasn't please help me.a mad mofo.
|
new hulk
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
49
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 22:06:00 -
[43] - Quote
Hello? |
new hulk
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
49
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 01:42:00 -
[44] - Quote
Thanks for the support love it so is my character buged server side i think so |
Edvvin Simon
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 17:47:00 -
[45] - Quote
Thank you so much for this!
Had "lost connection to host" all the time, now works like a charm. Had to do both options.
P.S. Don't forget to reboot the router after changes (30sec. Power disconnect). |
shade emry3
Conspiratus Immortalis
18
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 09:52:00 -
[46] - Quote
EVICER wrote:Patches The Hyena wrote:Lol at Evicer, SCEA is going to refund you what? The $20 merc pack you bought that also gave beta access? You sir make me laugh.
Also you make console users sound like retards, please stop. If you want to use electronics and the internet effectively some basic knowledge is required and port forwarding is incredibly simple. All you have to do is Google your router and port forwarding and you'll get step by step instructions, then again its easy to figure out yourself.
However you stated you don't have a router, you're NAT 1 based on what you describe and have no need for port forwarding.
On topic, thanks for posting the exact ports needed. Much appreciated! First of all I **** 20 dollars.Its the principle of selling something. That being "software".Software that does not work correctly.Does not run or is damaging my hardware. Secondly I own my Domain name.Pay for my website.Rent a server on BF3(90 days at a time).Own the platinum pack for said game spend 20 dollars a week at least on PS Home.I am a playstation plus user. $$$$ my point is if they fix this game they can have it.....Do not, and receive not. Finally you stated " you're NAT 1 based on what you describe and have no need for port forwarding." So how is this post gonna help anyone?If I'm running straight from my modem and the game still refuses to play....how is this helpfull.Why not take care of the problem at the source instead of directing people to a work around?
Someone didnt read the terms of service agreement.... |
WASTED MERC
The Southern Legion
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 14:36:00 -
[47] - Quote
port forwarding is for chumps im hardcore non-port forwarder like 99% of the players |
Insane Nutter
Insane Cru
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 09:07:00 -
[48] - Quote
PS3 supports Proxy ... Is there one running somewhere inside CCP / DUST ... anywhere related to this game .... that we can test on ?
Giving us another route in for people who have connectivity / performance issues.
|
the BAD FurrY
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
37
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 17:44:00 -
[49] - Quote
GM Unicorn wrote:Option #2
From a post of Sees-Too-Much, how to set up a DMZ in your router.
1. Logging into your router 1.1 Enter router IP into your web browser. 1.1.1 Router IP varies with the router. Mine is 192.168.1.1, but others will be 192.168.1.0 or 192.168.0.1. If you aren't sure simply google the make/model of your router and you should find a a manual that knows it. 1.1.2 Your router will request a password. By default this is usually "admin"/"admin", ""/"admin", or "admin"/"". You can google your make/model to find out what the default is. 1.1.2.1 If you changed it and don't remember what it is your router will have a reset button which, when pushed, will reset all settings, including login/pass, to factory defaults. 1.2 Find your DHCP settings 1.2.1 For my router this is on the initial page (basic setup). 1.3 It will have a range or starting point for IP addresses. Mine is a starting point of 192.168.1.100. Take note of this value and make sure whatever this range is does not include all possible addresses. By having a starting point of 100 My DHCP range is 100-255, for example. Set your range so that at least one value other than the router's IP cannot be assigned by DHCP.
2. Setting up a static IP for your PS3 2.1 In your PS3 main menu find settings->network settings->internet connection settings 2.1.1 Custom setting method 2.1.2 Continue as appropriate until you get to IP Address Settings 2.1.2.1 Select Manual 2.1.2.2 Set the IP address to something outside of the DHCP range you set in 1.3. 2.1.2.3 Set the default router to the router IP address. This is the same thing you put in your web browser in 1.1. 2.1.2.4 Set the Primary DNS to the router IP address. 2.1.3 Handle MTU and Proxy server settings however you normally would. 2.1.4 Set UPnP to disabled 2.1.5 Save and test connection.
3. Changing router settings 3.1 Disable UPnP in your router 3.1.1 For me this is under the "administration" tab. 3.2 Set DMZ to the IP you selected in 2.1.2.2 3.2.1 DMZ will be found under "port forwarding" or "applications". Something like that. My router calls it "Applications & Gaming".
DO,s not work !!! tryed it my self and still freezing ....hell iv tryed everything so far and im still getting the radom freeze |
Alex Smoke
The Nommo Insurance Fraud.
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 10:55:00 -
[50] - Quote
Turn off UPnP? Really?
Talk about grasping for straws, fix your game first there's nothing wrong with UPnP. |
|
Covert Clay
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 21:29:00 -
[51] - Quote
Who need PF when you got UPnP???? |
Sulan Mihi
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.29 23:54:00 -
[52] - Quote
Xiree wrote:Dreylor Thunderfall wrote:
\ \Xiree -- DMZ is a made up word. A firewall-less connection isn't DMZ. \
Dreylor Thunderfall --
DMZ = Demilitarized Zone... It is not a made up word... it is an area outside of your firewall... we usually use this for setting up honeypot traps for idiots who want to try to hack into a network. Also a few servers sit outside the firewall in the DMZ for full access... I wouldn't suggest putting your PS3 in the DMZ as you could possibly end up susceptible to DoS (Denial of Service) attacks. The DMZ exists between your Modem (connection to your ISP, regardless of who they are or what type it is) and the Switch half of your Router gear (the other ports that you plug your computer, or other network gear into).
again... it is outside the firewall
Xiree -- \Static IP, is YOUR NETMASK. IT is not tunneling your connectivity through port 80, exempting the netmask. \ \You are telling people how to port-forward... \ \If you want faster connectivity... Port Forwarding wouldn't increase anything. Cable sucks, DSL is better. \
Dreylor Thunderfall -- Netmask: the term "Netmask" is most often associated with subnet masking. (For most home users your subnet mask is 255.255.255.0) it tells the network devices which messages to listen to and which to ignore. Those that are allowed "fall through" the mask (it ends up comparing binary values within the packet headers... yeah I know... this is pretty deep geekery... but i hate it when people throw around buzzwords... like a lizard puffing up a dewlap trying to look impressive)
Netmask is a static-ip feature ONCE again though... DMZ is made up.... Sorry for the delay, of my response -- I just wanted to see how many sites started to start using DMZ. But your lil, theory of DMZ.... See there is an actual name for those " it is an area outside of your firewall" as you call them. They are called, SWITCHES. Switches are those nodes that direct traffic outside your firewall. Many spoofers use proxies to attempt to make their proxy look like their host. But it is really easy to exempt them and find actual DNS info. Proxy servers, are often used to try to spoof connectivity, but those who use them... Often do not know what an PROXY-server is actually for.
Really DMZ made up funny that as that is exactly where I put my public facing equipment..
"In computer security, a DMZ (sometimes referred to as a perimeter network) is a physical or logical subnetwork that contains and exposes an organization's external-facing services to a larger untrusted network, usually the Internet. The purpose of a DMZ is to add an additional layer of security to an organization's local area network (LAN); an external attacker only has access to equipment in the DMZ, rather than any other part of the network. The name is derived from the term "demilitarized zone", an area between nation states in which military action is not permitted."
From wikipedia as I can not be bothered to explain it.
|
Liner ReXiandra
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 11:08:00 -
[53] - Quote
I had to place the PS3 into the DMZ/disable upnp *just because* of the Uprising build otherwise would not update.
First game to force me adjust my router options which is tbh, unacceptable if other games and even the updates prior to uprising went just fine. There are a lot of people posting with similar results and not all of them have access to adjusting their router settings (think university dorms and so on); you're losing a big chunck of players because of this. |
Nguruthos IX
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
469
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 18:17:00 -
[54] - Quote
Liner ReXiandra wrote:I had to place the PS3 into the DMZ/disable upnp *just because* of the Uprising build otherwise would not update.
First game to force me adjust my router options which is tbh, unacceptable if other games and even the updates prior to uprising went just fine. There are a lot of people posting with similar results and not all of them have access to adjusting their router settings (think university dorms and so on); you're losing a big chunck of players because of this.
It fixed this 4.6 Mib update bug for you? Today? |
mr musturd
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. ROFL BROS
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 08:31:00 -
[55] - Quote
this is way to complicated for a simple gamer to understand |
J3ff H3rc
Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 22:21:00 -
[56] - Quote
Here's the deal: i couldn't do that....my router is a Thomsom EWG850-4B....i found what i think its the DHCP stuff...there'stwo option, Lease Pool Start and Lease Pool End. i chsnged that and put only one IP on the two spots....Then, i chnged the ip of my ps3 to something different from that pool...then, i tested the connection and BAAAAAM....I've lost the connection.tuen i found a buddy here in this topic with a link to a section of connection support from playstation site...In that site, they say that i cannot chage the ip of ps3 to something that overlaps the range of DHCP....
Then, there's a option on the router on WAN settings to change the WAN connection type, from DHCP to Static IP.....i tried that and nothing....lost the connection...soooo, i'm lost, don't know what to do....anyone can help me? |
Avatar Jin-Mei
Ahrendee Frontlinez Omega Commission
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 03:08:00 -
[57] - Quote
Port forward? Drop UPnP?
Uh....how about no? Those are in place for a reason I should kindly remind you. |
PlanetSide2 F2PonPS4
Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 16:34:00 -
[58] - Quote
My in depth report |
Reckerr
D3LTA ACADEMY
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 10:15:00 -
[59] - Quote
Weeks of trying, different boards, 10 Redownloads, Port forwarding, DMZ editing, UPNP turning, Buttons pressing.
And I stil cant connect to the game. At the Syncronizing/Connecting page. It gets stuck at 48%, goes to 49% then 50% then 51%... Then magicaly jumps back to 48% and runs through to 51%. Does this about 5 times before it says data files corrupt. Where are these data files so I can delete them, or please give me a little help with this error. Thanks. |
Planetside2 OnPS4
Namtar Elite Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 19:20:00 -
[60] - Quote
+ö+ö+ö+ö+ö+ö+ö+öSorry no fix yet for your issues sorry, im having similar issues.+ö+ö+ö+ö+ö+ö+ö+ö |
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