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Infuriating Loop of N00b0sity, or, "My Knee Jerk Reactions"

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J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 648	Posted - 2012.07.21 01:57:00 - [1] - Quote So, after several weeks of playing, I have reached a point where DUST has seemed to kind of hit a wall for me. And I have thought quite a bit about it along the way. Some good, some bad, some downright ugly. But, I will attempt to clear up my thoughts in a logical manner for you all to pick apart. DUST 514; my holy grail of shooters. After playing... (yes, you can scream now!) MAG for several years, I have been extremely attracted to the idea of a MMOFPS. Currently, I think DUST 514 is going to achieve that dream of the MMO part, it seems to be on the right track theory-wise. However, I have had some time to sit down and organize my thoughts together coherently and present them. Firstly, I feel there is something slightly off with the risk vs. reward system in the game ATM. As a militia, I supposedly mean nothing. However, the fact that I can get a free militia HAV, LAV, or dropship whenever I want feels off to me. I think that honestly only a militia LAV should be provided, and maybe not even that. As a militia, there is nothing for me to risk for greater reward. I am given all of my stuff for free and let to run wild. I understand the fact that you need something to start out with to even be able to get better, but to me it feels like everything is cheap with militia gear. I think each merc should be given possibly a random allocation of gear from the market on first joining, something to be careful with. Just a premature thought, but I feel the whole militia attitude needs a little work. Secondly is what I call the Infuriating Loop of N00b0sity. While playing, I feel frequently outclassed by better gear than what I have, and not necessarily better skill. And this is OK. I believe that there should be better gear available. However, one thing that does annoy me slightly is the way the game gives you SP. Currently, SP is focused on getting hacks and assisting your team if my analysis is correct. However, the ISK portion of the game is focused on kills, which leads many players on a mad kill hunt. This means that objectives are the places where kills are obviously going to happen. Now, if the only way for me to be more survivable is to get hacks, then getting killed isn't a good option. So I try to kill those guarding the objective to save my skin. However, I am a low level. I cannot grind all day to get Proto gear on the first day of a new build. I can play for an hour or two at most a day. I have a life, ya know? But back to the scenario. I go to find the inevitable campers. Upon finding them, I try to sneak around and kill them with as little warning as possible. Surprise! It is a prototype suit wearing mercenary! They survive the first several seconds of firing, and turning, kill me near instantly with a CreoDron Breach AR. -_- I am currently in the situation where unless I grind and grind and grind 30 matches a day, I will not be able to unlock higher end gear. Partially because due to my lousy survivability. The game seems to give an infinite loop where the only way to get more SP is to get more hacks, and the only way to do that is to be more survivable, and the only way to do that is to be able to kill better, and the only way to get that is by getting SP! So I am stuck earning a measly 30,000 SP per match as I try to grind for over one million SP to unlock the ADVANCED suit, not even the Prototype. And that is not even with going after my gun skills to get a better AR. I feel that the SP earning aspect of the game needs to be improved. Hacking is easily camped, and for low levels like me, it gets infuriating to spend a half hour getting 30,000 SP. And going 5 / 18. Just a thought, I know people will say "LoL no Skills", "git Gud" "scrub tbh". Ok! Great! I admit I am not the best FPS player ever. In every other game I go at least positive, if not getting a 2.0 KDR. Not that KDR matters to me, but it is not my aim that is making me lose. I cannot quite think of any easy answers to this without ruining the hard edge I love about DUST. But I feel it will be even worse once the beta is over and we are earning 5,000 SP per match since we lost the passive boosters in place for the duration of the beta. I just generally think that the SP earning mechanism needs to be enhanced. I don't believe in artificially leveling the playing field outside of High-Sec. I just feel that doing ANYTHING that benefits your team should get SP. For me at least personally, the current state of DUST is an intolerable grind to level up my gear until I can actually start to compete. It is not quite something that makes me all crazy about firing up my PS3 to play. TL; DR? - Dust feels too grindy right now, and needs more methods for a new player to be able to contribute to his team. Hopefully, the addition of medical skills and repairing, as well as grouping will end this problem. I hate having to QQ, but it is kind of annoying. Grouping also needs to be added ASAP IMO. That alone might fix the whole SP problem since you will actually be using teamwork and not just rushing in to hope a blue dot covers you while hacking. So go ahead, tear apart my post for your amusement/argument!
J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 648	Posted - 2012.07.21 02:08:00 - [2] - Quote Another thought; Since I have chosen front line grunt for my vocation in DUST for now at least, there seems to be very little ways for me to get SP without being forced to branch out into other areas. In fact, it reminds me of MAG; where you were practically required to have a med kit to level up very fast at all, and only after achieving the top level could you branch out in other directions. Like I said, CCP needs to think hard about including more ways for grunts to get SP. Not everyone can be a medic. But if hacking and being a medic are the only ways to get SP for a basic grunt, then its gonna force people in a certain direction... EDIT: This is not a ragequit. I am simply trying to make DUST better. I don't want it to be easier, I want it to be more free. Forcing people down a certain path seems to go against the mantra of freedom CCP likes to have in its games. If you want people to branch out and specialize, the game needs to provide you with SP for trying to do so in your specialized direction, not for doing one of 3 things that might not be fitted at all to your specialty.
howard sanchez Conspiratus Immortalis 448	Posted - 2012.07.21 02:11:00 - [3] - Quote beta test
howard sanchez Conspiratus Immortalis 448	Posted - 2012.07.21 02:12:00 - [4] - Quote howard sanchez wrote: beta test No, really J'J, if it was likely that routine game development driven patches and balance fixes weren't likely week after week until launch, your post would be much more troubling. I just don't think that's the case. Good points though. Those issues do need balance.
Mo Gallas Gentralde Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 178	Posted - 2012.07.21 02:13:00 - [5] - Quote You're complaining about 30,000 SP per match man? I've gotten as low as 8,000 sp per match by playing in the wrong timeslots. (as the game reset every "day" according to where the servers are located and time played per "day" reduced sp even if you went to sleep for 12 hours then woke up you'd still be on the prior "day"s timeslot hence earning even less) 30,000-50,000 is a decent amount of SP to earn per match for getting "all beat up"
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.21 02:15:00 - [6] - Quote Grouping + Repair Tool = something for new players to do. Grouping + Drop Uplink = something else for new players to do. Grouping + my gear is free = cannon fodder to throw at the enemy while higher-level teammates flank. Pick your playstyle. EDIT: If the game was actually the GAME, and not the EARLY STAGES OF CLOSED BETA, then grouping would need to be in already and we should be complaining. Plenty of time for that to happen SOONGäó and plenty of work being done with all the things we've already been testing.
J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 648	Posted - 2012.07.21 02:18:00 - [7] - Quote howard sanchez wrote: beta test Of course its a beta test. I am not an idiot that doesn't realize this and simply wants to QQ "Wahhh its too hard". I see a problem, and I think it could be better tackled than the current direction it is taking. It may come off that way at face value, but this post is not saying, "it should be easier." it is saying, "Ok. Nice. Its tough. But currently, there aren't enough ways for me to be creative and level up without charging head on into the thick of the problem." Instead of being smart and discovering a niche, the game tends to make you grind for SP until you can compete, and ONLY THEN can you find that niche. It isn't exactly what I had in mind when the FF presentations were discussing how there "are no classes". Well, uh, yeah. Currently, there is the Heavy Forge Gun/Swarm Launcher user, the Scout with SMG and RE, the CreoDron Breach assault rifle user, and the tank driver/dropship pilot. Sounds kinda like classes to me...?
J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 648	Posted - 2012.07.21 02:21:00 - [8] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Grouping + Repair Tool = something for new players to do. Grouping + Drop Uplink = something else for new players to do. Grouping + my gear is free = cannon fodder to throw at the enemy while higher-level teammates flank. Pick your playstyle. EDIT: If the game was actually the GAME, and not the EARLY STAGES OF CLOSED BETA, then grouping would need to be in already and we should be complaining. Plenty of time for that to happen SOONGäó and plenty of work being done with all the things we've already been testing. Exactly. Hence the need to add Grouping soon. i am simply just bringing up issues for CCP to consider as they implement that, and how they need to think about SP allocation for actions OTHER than hacking.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.21 02:22:00 - [9] - Quote J'Jor Da'Wg wrote: Since I have chosen front line grunt for my vocation in DUST for now at least, there seems to be very little ways for me to get SP without being forced to branch out into other areas. In fact, it reminds me of MAG; where you were practically required to have a med kit to level up very fast at all, and only after achieving the top level could you branch out in other directions. Frontline grunts SHOULD be the ones doing the hacking. They're almost as fast as the Scouts who get there first to start clearing the area, and they're not lagging as far behind as Heavies. Logi/Assault suits can both fit the definition of frontline grunt when given the right fitting. A well-tanked Scout can do the job decently too. Specialist Anti-personnel builds are pretty decent for getting SP, in my experience.
Monocle Cognac Universal Allies Inc. 14	Posted - 2012.07.21 02:28:00 - [10] - Quote You make some interesting points being that you are in the same boat as me. I too cannot play all day to grind. I just happen to have a different perspective on the whole thing. I see the game as a long term thing. No matter what the devs could do to even the playing field, time is still money to turn a phrase. What I am saying is, some players will always have the advantage because they have more time to play and level up faster. You should not be penalized for putting in work. That being said, I believe there comes a point for any player, regardless of how long they can play each day, that they will become strong enough to compete. For example, I was getting my ass handed to me the first 2 beta weekends I played but I persevered and this weekend I had my first positive KDR for a match. The thing is, for people like us, it will take longer to get to this point. To address your second post, being a grunt is the gateway drug to specialization (at least I like to think that). Level up the base drop-suit skills and the AR. Those and the bread and butter that will open the game up. I am not trying to contradict you. In fact I agree with you on most of your points, though I think the ISK/XP distribution is fine. As I mentioned before, this is a long term investment. For some like us, it will take longer, but I believe in the end it will be worth it. If life has taught me anything, things are much sweeter when you work for them and earn them (that and don't eat the yellow snow. Hear that kids? Important life lesson there.) Eventually, everyone will plateau as far as overall skill levels are concerned and the actual game play and teamwork will come into effect. That is when the real fun will start. I myself am willing to work and wait for that day because it will let Dust play out to its full potential. Anyway, just my take on these issues. I am overall positive when it comes to this game and a little patient as well.

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.21 02:30:00 - [11] - Quote J'Jor Da'Wg wrote: Well, uh, yeah. Currently, there is the Heavy Forge Gun/Swarm Launcher user, the Scout with SMG and RE, the CreoDron Breach assault rifle user, and the tank driver/dropship pilot. Sounds kinda like classes to me...? You're missing a few. Heavy with SMG/Pistol (either or both) and stacked damage mods. Heavy with AR. Scout with Swarm Launcher. Scout Medic with AV weapon. Scout Medic with AP weapon. Logi Medic with Nano-Injector. Logi Medic with Uplinks. Assault with Swarm Launcher, AV grenades, and both shield and armour tanking capabilities. For vehicles you have various loadouts for various vehicles with various weapons and mods, and various loadouts being used by the pilots and gunners for various reasons. etc. etc. etc. And at least a couple of the "main" builds you listed are getting more than a few adjustments with the next build, breaking down the "class" barriers even further. And mentioning the Creodron users as a single class makes no sense. Is it a tanked-up Heavy who parks himself near the front lines practically ignoring incoming fire, an Assault who wades right in and cuts through the enemy, or a Scout who flanks and attacks from unexpected angles? Just having that weapon doesn't define everything about the player's combat role.
howard sanchez Conspiratus Immortalis 448	Posted - 2012.07.21 02:45:00 - [12] - Quote J'Jor Da'Wg wrote: howard sanchez wrote: beta test Of course its a beta test. I am not an idiot that doesn't realize this and simply wants to QQ "Wahhh its too hard". I see a problem, and I think it could be better tackled than the current direction it is taking. It may come off that way at face value, but this post is not saying, "it should be easier." it is saying, "Ok. Nice. Its tough. But currently, there aren't enough ways for me to be creative and level up without charging head on into the thick of the problem." Instead of being smart and discovering a niche, the game tends to make you grind for SP until you can compete, and ONLY THEN can you find that niche. It isn't exactly what I had in mind when the FF presentations were discussing how there "are no classes". Well, uh, yeah. Currently, there is the Heavy Forge Gun/Swarm Launcher user, the Scout with SMG and RE, the CreoDron Breach assault rifle user, and the tank driver/dropship pilot. Sounds kinda like classes to me...? Sorry, my posts sounded snotty and maggish. You make excellent points and I've had to post a very similar kind of response myself to people coming off as harsh and adolescent. Gotta think about my tone before I post lest the rabid forum disease infect me.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.07.21 02:59:00 - [13] - Quote If it makes you feel any better assault milita rifles are the number one slayer of my proto assault suit.
Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.07.21 03:59:00 - [14] - Quote ISK has little to do with kills. I've been in matches where I go 10-2 and earn 500k and others where I'll go 40-5 and earn 200k.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 153	Posted - 2012.07.21 07:37:00 - [15] - Quote Isk and SP are based off War Points. You gain 50 war points for a kill, 25 for an assist, 100 for a hack on objectives, 50 on supply depots, turrets and CRUs, and half that for a hack assist. Not sure about vehicles... In short, you can gain SP any way you want. Capturing objectives, killing, yadda. With regards to militia vehicles, they will cost to buy. They were only free for this build to test vehicles and AV. You also get warpoints for dropping a drop uplink (if someone uses it), dropping a nanohive, etc.
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.07.21 08:26:00 - [16] - Quote Like others said, try different suits etc. To an extent SP grinding is part of the game. IMO, ur first mistake was to focus on getting the adv suit. The suits should be last. (IMO) Adv suit is good, but buffing your skills for shield regen, armor tanking, weapon dmg, etc should be ur priority. This way, they apply to any fit you want. Then go for adv weapons. They give you more "bang for your buck" in terms of isk and sp cost, vs their actually utility. Once you do that, then go for the adv suit. (go for it later, mostly bc it's so expensive sp-wise) If "leveled up" properly, you'll find that you have a fighting chance against most players, withing 2-3million SP. HOWEVER, this doesn't mean you don't stand a chance with militia gear. As many others have stated in various posts... Just be more cautious, and assume ur at a disadvantage in every battle. If you flank and get the jump on someone, toss nades first to "soften them up" then start firing into their back. Stay in groups. (strength in numbers) Once you have like 8million+ SP, you'll have plenty of high level gear. (even more so once you hit 12million SP) Then you'll be able to go out on your own more, and not feel like your just a walking target. (although some of the above survivability rules, still apply)
Dan Pennus Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.07.21 09:24:00 - [17] - Quote This game, as it stands now, is like a woderful candy store, but once you start eating teh candies they taste like shite. I really hope that this beta will end soon...reeeeeeally soon.
Iceyburnz 316	Posted - 2012.07.21 10:13:00 - [18] - Quote Its okay your allowed to go play other games until the next wipe/release. Dust 514 won't file for divorce. Oh and a lot of the stuff you've said should be rewritten coherently in a measured way and said in the feedback section of the forum. Im sure the devs would appreciate the feed back written in a way thats not, well, a rant. Just saying.
steadyhand 08 orti Doomheim 43	Posted - 2012.07.21 10:53:00 - [19] - Quote your loop will be fixed with the introduction of A lot more players, and B PVE content which will allow you a safe environment to get good gear in and level up in.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2012.07.21 11:06:00 - [20] - Quote There's no point in complaining about the balancing between different SP levels when the game mechanics that address these things have yet to be introduced. Test for what we do have, rather than complain about what isn't in the game yet.



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