DUST Search - To all beta testers before servers go back up....

Umallon Macross wrote:

Lurchasaurus wrote:

Well, there certainly is a difference between complaining/whining and constructive feedback. I'm sure you'll agree with that. In addition, I'm sure you will agree that much of the feedback/issues you were referring to become just another whine complaint when they are in the general discussion grouping of the forum and not in the feedback/requests group. This thread is not pointless. It is a discussion meant to be open to all the beta testers, hence the name of the thread and the placement of the thread in the general discussion section. You saying its pointless because i am not giving any feedback is flawed and irrelevant since the point of this thread is not to give feedback to the devs, or else i would have typed something completely different and in a different part of the forum.

I feel as if your entire perspective on the beta testing situation is flawed/skewed. You defend people who brake the NDA, when they are the ones who are illegally acting...doesn't make much sense. Companies shouldn't have to worry about idiots going against their agreed- to terms. Does it happen? Absolutely. Is it too bad that it does? Absolutely. In a perfect world it wouldn't. In this world, it still shouldn't.

You are doing a service to them? Get over yourself. Yes, you are doing it for free. That was your choice at some point as it certainly wasn't easy to get a beta key or else you willingly spent money on a merc pack. No one twisted you arm here.

As far as kindness from the devs in letting me beta test is concerned, i actually am very grateful for this chance and i absolutely feel that was a service done to me. This is probably the only thing in our debate here that is actually legitimately up to the discretion of the tester and honestly, if you dont feel grateful that CCP is letting you play before release than that seems a little ungrateful to me.

No, I don't agree. Coming from a retail background, I know that ALL criticism is valuable whether its 'constructive' or not. I've had enough "we only accept 'constructive' criticism" from Bioware and EA. Negative feedback can be more valuable then happy friendly 'you know, you're so special, but maybe you would please consider BLAH BLAH BLAH'.

The forum is full of junk, and I think this thread is just another useless piece of flotsam in the ocean. I'm not saying this thread is pointless because it isn't feedback, I'm saying its pointless because it achieves nothing.

I'm not defending anyone. EVEN if this thread could possibly be seen as DOING anything about breaches of the NDA then I would still be considered as assisting just by bumping it. You aren't defending CCP, and they don't need your defense, so this thread just takes up space, which is what I'M complaining about.

Yes, we are performing a service for them. We are testing their product, and giving them vital feedback, both in terms of opinion and various metrics. I'm not saying I haven't entered into this unwillingly, I am saying it ISN'T A PRESENT. They aren't doing it to be nice, they are doing it because they are a business, and it saves them money. You are naive if you think they are lavishing generosity on us out of the kindness of their hearts.

CCP is a BUSINESS. I am a CUSTOMER. I will not feel any more GRATEFUL to them for the beta than I would to Microsoft for 'letting' me fill in a survey, or a supermarket for 'letting' me know about their specials.

I'm tired of this attitude in the gaming community that developers and publishers are some kind of mighty gods sitting in castles in the sky bestowing upon us rare gifts of their favor.

No, I am not 'grateful' for the beta. I spent $230AUS on a PS3, and $30AUS on the merc pack, and I have 2 current EVE Online accounts. I will not be 'grateful' to CCP for 'letting' me work for them for free.

I will however be proud that I've have helped in some small way to build an online universe I care a lot about.

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PDIGGY22 Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 189	Posted - 2012.07.19 04:44:00 - [31] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: PDIGGY22 wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: Disclaimer: Made this in my Dust withdrawal induced anger while reading nonsense whining on the forums... ahem... The quality of gamers has decreased over the years.....its sad. i remember back in the day when everyone was exploding with happiness when 3d games came out and people were astounded by the leaps and bounds developers were showing in game design when games tried to do something new. nowadays, we cant go a day without someone complaining that a game which is trying to stir up the waters is not a carbon copy of a now money-grabbing, no innovation series like COD. For some reason, people feel the need to complain about a game still in testing phases, posting videos while dodging an NDA, telling prospective players the game sucks.... How dare you undermine CCP's efforts by negatively promoting, under NDA, a game that is not finished. This game is in a CLOSED Beta....you were INVITED to TEST this game in order to help CCP further the creation of their own ideas and aspirations for this game....not yours, not some EVE/COD/MAG/BF3 player's, not mine.....if you can't handle objectively testing a game while giving constructive feedback, then why did you ask to join the beta? You rage quit and don't want to help? Fine. We will see you when the game launches. CCP owes nothing to anyone, also a thought for those who complain about being gipped by the merc pack... LOL this is not a "closed beta" anyone can buy their way into the beta = not closed. valid point, although debatable. even if its an open beta, that does not change the fact that the game is still unfinished and not ready for public criticism. then why make it so anyone can buy in? doesnt make sense, looks like a desperate money grab to help fund the project...
thereal herbzula Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 62	Posted - 2012.07.19 04:51:00 - [32] - Quote I just want the servers to be online so i can play damnit. You all can cry, i just want to play the game!!
Umallon Macross Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 281	Posted - 2012.07.19 05:01:00 - [33] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Well, there certainly is a difference between complaining/whining and constructive feedback. I'm sure you'll agree with that. In addition, I'm sure you will agree that much of the feedback/issues you were referring to become just another whine complaint when they are in the general discussion grouping of the forum and not in the feedback/requests group. This thread is not pointless. It is a discussion meant to be open to all the beta testers, hence the name of the thread and the placement of the thread in the general discussion section. You saying its pointless because i am not giving any feedback is flawed and irrelevant since the point of this thread is not to give feedback to the devs, or else i would have typed something completely different and in a different part of the forum. I feel as if your entire perspective on the beta testing situation is flawed/skewed. You defend people who brake the NDA, when they are the ones who are illegally acting...doesn't make much sense. Companies shouldn't have to worry about idiots going against their agreed- to terms. Does it happen? Absolutely. Is it too bad that it does? Absolutely. In a perfect world it wouldn't. In this world, it still shouldn't. You are doing a service to them? Get over yourself. Yes, you are doing it for free. That was your choice at some point as it certainly wasn't easy to get a beta key or else you willingly spent money on a merc pack. No one twisted you arm here. As far as kindness from the devs in letting me beta test is concerned, i actually am very grateful for this chance and i absolutely feel that was a service done to me. This is probably the only thing in our debate here that is actually legitimately up to the discretion of the tester and honestly, if you dont feel grateful that CCP is letting you play before release than that seems a little ungrateful to me. No, I don't agree. Coming from a retail background, I know that ALL criticism is valuable whether its 'constructive' or not. I've had enough "we only accept 'constructive' criticism" from Bioware and EA. Negative feedback can be more valuable then happy friendly 'you know, you're so special, but maybe you would please consider BLAH BLAH BLAH'. The forum is full of junk, and I think this thread is just another useless piece of flotsam in the ocean. I'm not saying this thread is pointless because it isn't feedback, I'm saying its pointless because it achieves nothing. I'm not defending anyone. EVEN if this thread could possibly be seen as DOING anything about breaches of the NDA then I would still be considered as assisting just by bumping it. You aren't defending CCP, and they don't need your defense, so this thread just takes up space, which is what I'M complaining about. Yes, we are performing a service for them. We are testing their product, and giving them vital feedback, both in terms of opinion and various metrics. I'm not saying I haven't entered into this unwillingly, I am saying it ISN'T A PRESENT. They aren't doing it to be nice, they are doing it because they are a business, and it saves them money. You are naive if you think they are lavishing generosity on us out of the kindness of their hearts. CCP is a BUSINESS. I am a CUSTOMER. I will not feel any more GRATEFUL to them for the beta than I would to Microsoft for 'letting' me fill in a survey, or a supermarket for 'letting' me know about their specials. I'm tired of this attitude in the gaming community that developers and publishers are some kind of mighty gods sitting in castles in the sky bestowing upon us rare gifts of their favor. No, I am not 'grateful' for the beta. I spent $230AUS on a PS3, and $30AUS on the merc pack, and I have 2 current EVE Online accounts. I will not be 'grateful' to CCP for 'letting' me work for them for free. I will however be proud that I've have helped in some small way to build an online universe I care a lot about.
Lurchasaurus SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 808	Posted - 2012.07.19 05:02:00 - [34] - Quote PDIGGY22 wrote: LOL this is not a "closed beta" anyone can buy their way into the beta = not closed. valid point, although debatable. even if its an open beta, that does not change the fact that the game is still unfinished and not ready for public criticism. [/quote] then why make it so anyone can buy in? doesnt make sense, looks like a desperate money grab to help fund the project...[/quote] The intent behind the decision to sell merc packs is up to the discretion of CCP and we cant know or criticise that unless they tell us the dirty details. But thats the way it should be. Doesnt change the fact that the game is largely unfinished and in a closed beta. Yes, the merc pack gives a key, but unless you buy one, not everyone and their dog can get a key, therefore its not an open beta. Sidenote: I think they did the merc pack thing as a favor to anyone who seriously needed to get into the beta or they would die, or to give an avenue to get some aurum or special items. I gave them my money to support the devs. Do they need the money? probably not...Am i glad they put the option up? hell yeah.
Nexus Cavor KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 88	Posted - 2012.07.19 05:08:00 - [35] - Quote Anyone else hearing voices saying "Defend all defense relays." and stuff like that? I am actually serious about the psychiatrist part. I am seeing one in the morning... The other part... Well if you want to chip in CCP by all means go ahead.
PDIGGY22 Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 189	Posted - 2012.07.19 05:10:00 - [36] - Quote it's a buy-in open beta with the looks, feels and features of an alpha.
Drake Lyons Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 209	Posted - 2012.07.19 05:12:00 - [37] - Quote PDIGGY22 wrote: it's a buy-in open beta with the looks, feels and features of an alpha. See the big NDA every time you start the game? It's a closed beta.
Lurchasaurus SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 808	Posted - 2012.07.19 05:14:00 - [38] - Quote Umallon Macross wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: Well, there certainly is a difference between complaining/whining and constructive feedback. I'm sure you'll agree with that. In addition, I'm sure you will agree that much of the feedback/issues you were referring to become just another whine complaint when they are in the general discussion grouping of the forum and not in the feedback/requests group. This thread is not pointless. It is a discussion meant to be open to all the beta testers, hence the name of the thread and the placement of the thread in the general discussion section. You saying its pointless because i am not giving any feedback is flawed and irrelevant since the point of this thread is not to give feedback to the devs, or else i would have typed something completely different and in a different part of the forum. I feel as if your entire perspective on the beta testing situation is flawed/skewed. You defend people who brake the NDA, when they are the ones who are illegally acting...doesn't make much sense. Companies shouldn't have to worry about idiots going against their agreed- to terms. Does it happen? Absolutely. Is it too bad that it does? Absolutely. In a perfect world it wouldn't. In this world, it still shouldn't. You are doing a service to them? Get over yourself. Yes, you are doing it for free. That was your choice at some point as it certainly wasn't easy to get a beta key or else you willingly spent money on a merc pack. No one twisted you arm here. As far as kindness from the devs in letting me beta test is concerned, i actually am very grateful for this chance and i absolutely feel that was a service done to me. This is probably the only thing in our debate here that is actually legitimately up to the discretion of the tester and honestly, if you dont feel grateful that CCP is letting you play before release than that seems a little ungrateful to me. No, I don't agree. Coming from a retail background, I know that ALL criticism is valuable whether its 'constructive' or not. I've had enough "we only accept 'constructive' criticism" from Bioware and EA. Negative feedback can be more valuable then happy friendly 'you know, you're so special, but maybe you would please consider BLAH BLAH BLAH'. The forum is full of junk, and I think this thread is just another useless piece of flotsam in the ocean. I'm not saying this thread is pointless because it isn't feedback, I'm saying its pointless because it achieves nothing. I'm not defending anyone. EVEN if this thread could possibly be seen as DOING anything about breaches of the NDA then I would still be considered as assisting just by bumping it. You aren't defending CCP, and they don't need your defense, so this thread just takes up space, which is what I'M complaining about. Yes, we are performing a service for them. We are testing their product, and giving them vital feedback, both in terms of opinion and various metrics. I'm not saying I haven't entered into this unwillingly, I am saying it ISN'T A PRESENT. They aren't doing it to be nice, they are doing it because they are a business, and it saves them money. You are naive if you think they are lavishing generosity on us out of the kindness of their hearts. CCP is a BUSINESS. I am a CUSTOMER. I will not feel any more GRATEFUL to them for the beta than I would to Microsoft for 'letting' me fill in a survey, or a supermarket for 'letting' me know about their specials. I'm tired of this attitude in the gaming community that developers and publishers are some kind of mighty gods sitting in castles in the sky bestowing upon us rare gifts of their favor. No, I am not 'grateful' for the beta. I spent $230AUS on a PS3, and $30AUS on the merc pack, and I have 2 current EVE Online accounts. I will not be 'grateful' to CCP for 'letting' me work for them for free. I will however be proud that I've have helped in some small way to build an online universe I care a lot about. This thread isn't for CCP. It was for the testers/you. I wanted to talk to YOU. Kinda sucks your so dedicated to telling me my intent is meaningless and pointless, since I was trying to hear what you people wanted to say... Basically, in clear english: This thread is important to me, since i wanted to talk to you. Not meaningless. Im actually enjoying the conversation. So thank you. Well, it seems that in a nutshell, our opinions are different, although id be as bold as to say im not so pessimistic. We DO however agree on the points i was seriously concerned about tho, so thats good. I prefer to think im helping CCP and that they've let me do so, out of necessity i would agree. Sure its cheaper, so what? Better for the game. Btw, important point...its a game. If its so important to you to feel like you are working by testing for CCP, than that kinda sucks but thats just how ya roll, so more power to ya. I bought the merc pack too. i want the devs to have my money, since i appreciate the magnitude of what they're trying to do here. Lots of potential in this game. About EA.....my my....I love the Battlefield series.....theyre kinda ruining it and im tired of their money grabbing games....not supporting them as long as i have Dust to fulfill my video game addiction. About negative feedback...that **** nerfs games into oblivion until they die due to lack of fun and players. This is where i give CCP a lot of credit as they have a lot of experience in listening to players and filtering out trash.
PDIGGY22 Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 189	Posted - 2012.07.19 05:27:00 - [39] - Quote Drake Lyons wrote: PDIGGY22 wrote: it's a buy-in open beta with the looks, feels and features of an alpha. See the big NDA every time you start the game? It's a closed beta. you see the merc pack? it comes with a beta code for anyone who buys it, and as far as i know there is no limits on codes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Beta in a true beta features are locked in. Just an FYI
Lurchasaurus SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 808	Posted - 2012.07.19 05:36:00 - [40] - Quote PDIGGY22 wrote: Drake Lyons wrote: PDIGGY22 wrote: it's a buy-in open beta with the looks, feels and features of an alpha. See the big NDA every time you start the game? It's a closed beta. you see the merc pack? it comes with a beta code for anyone who buys it, and as far as i know there is no limits on codes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Beta in a true beta features are locked in. Just an FYI merc packs dont give codes, it just immediately downloads the game for that psn account(or at least thats what i remember). It doesnt matter what you say about this and that, or look at this particular aspect of the game.....its a closed beta. when we fire up the game tomorrow, look on the top of the screen and i bet it'll say, guess what, closed beta...

Drake Lyons Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 209	Posted - 2012.07.19 05:47:00 - [41] - Quote PDIGGY22 wrote: Drake Lyons wrote: PDIGGY22 wrote: it's a buy-in open beta with the looks, feels and features of an alpha. See the big NDA every time you start the game? It's a closed beta. you see the merc pack? it comes with a beta code for anyone who buys it, and as far as i know there is no limits on codes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Beta in a true beta features are locked in. Just an FYI ...and the merc pack players still see that nice big NDA, and hit X to accept it, stating essentially that they won't say or show anything to the general public about the game. It's a closed beta. Let it go, man. And if you read that source you cited, it states that beta is generally feature complete - generally. But wikipedia goes on to state that beta release is actually defined by distribution to parties outside of the developer...and since we aren't CCP staff...this is, in fact, according to your own cited source...a beta. Again, let it go.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.07.19 05:54:00 - [42] - Quote EvE is still not feature complete, 9 years after release. CCP seems to have there own development system a little different from everyone else. They call Dust a closed beta, so by ccp's definition it is. There definition is probably based on requiring nda for closed. By that wikipedia article it would be open 1/2 beta, 1/2 pre-alpha. And EvE would be too, due to the features not being set and stuff that has been bugged for years (played 2 years with skill for defender missiles that don't work).
Lurchasaurus SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 808	Posted - 2012.07.19 06:11:00 - [43] - Quote NDA=closed right?
Umallon Macross Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 281	Posted - 2012.07.19 07:20:00 - [44] - Quote Stupid forum ate my response... wtvr, I'm done with this thread. Just remember that CCP doesn't hear your prayers every night.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.19 08:50:00 - [45] - Quote Umallon Macross wrote: No, I don't agree. Coming from a retail background, I know that ALL criticism is valuable whether its 'constructive' or not. I've had enough "we only accept 'constructive' criticism" from Bioware and EA. Negative feedback can be more valuable then happy friendly 'you know, you're so special, but maybe you would please consider BLAH BLAH BLAH'. Constructive criticism doesn't have to be polite. "Your game is crap. Stop trying" is negative criticism. It's also not helpful at all. "Your game sucks because you did X wrong and should do Y to fix it because you're idiots and don't know what you're doing" is constructive criticism. You don't even technically need to suggest way to FIX the problems if you want your criticism to be constructive. You CERTAINLY don't need to act like the devs are beautiful marvelous people who are merely a half-step short of perfect. I sometimes wonder if EA and Bioware know that, though. And I DEFINITELY have issues figuring out how Ubisoft judge valid criticism. It's recently been seeming more and more like they accurately analyse the best and worst ideas, then act on the most horrifically terrible suggestions and throw out the good ones. EDIT: As for the definition of a beta, the features need to be COMPLETE, they don't need to be IMPLEMENTED in EVERY build of the beta. Beta testing CAN be done on only a partial build with limited features without invalidating its status as a beta.


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