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Cobalt Monkey
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
140
   |
Posted - 2012.07.09 23:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
We may not agree with one another on everything, but working together we've managed to come up with a few proposals. We make them with the understanding that there is still a great deal about the game which we do not know. Everything could always change with the next build, the one after that, and so on. We hope for the best, but want to do our part to help plan for the worst. It's likely that no one side is going to be completely happy with everything that Dust turns out to be. But it's our hope that in looking for compromises like these that everyone will be as happy as possible.
The Problem
Passive skill buffs provide too much advantage over new players at no risk. The mentality witnessed in other similar games leads some of us to believe that once they have a sufficiently developed character to be able to easily destroy a new player with basic or even militia equipment, a very large portion of players will not move on from doing so. They want to get kills and win matches, and are not interested in building a corp or getting more ISK that they don't need to dominate newer players. All the incentive in the world will not matter to them. No matter how much bigger the payout, how much shinier the toys, they will stay right where they know they can win instead of going to the lower security levels.
The worry here is that with this "wall" of characters with skills that are unbalanced for their security level, many new players will be badly turned off of the game. People do not play games they can't win for long, which means less income for the game, and more importantly to us players, greatly reduced longevity.
Proposed Solutions
1.) Place a flat cap on the amount which a skill can aid a player based on the Security Level of the planet where the fighting takes place. Those playing in High Sec will have their passive skill buff's effect severely limited. Low Sec will be the middle ground where much more of their bonus applies, but not enough to keep the newbies from wanting to expand and "leave the nest" of High Sec. And, as always, anything goes in Null Sec.
--Pro: In this way a player who devotes points to his skills is rewarded, but not enough to so strongly outclass the lower level characters while playing in their back yard.
--Con: It's possible that with the decreased effectiveness of the passive skills, new players would ignore them in favor of other skills, meaning they would be less prepared for a move to Low Sec. Though this could be countered by returning to High Sec until those skills are more up to par. Moreover, since many of these skills are also linked to equipment unlocks as well as their buff, that may compensate for this problem on its own.
2.) Scale a skill's effectiveness in a manor like that of the Stacking Penalty on the effects of the passive skills, limiting their effectiveness overall. The more points you put into a skill, the less effective each new point becomes.
--Pro: This limits how much an experienced player anywhere can outclass another without effort or risking better gear in the attempt.
--Con: Like the previous suggestion, this might not give enough incentive to new players to specialize in any particular thing, and to skip out on skills they might need later. The same counters to this exist as well.
3.) Restrict access to cheap or militia equipment in High Sec after a character passes a certain SP level, or alternatively only lock them out of cheap or militia gear whose skill is raised past a certain level. For example, no free sniper rifles for master snipers when they're using that skill to torment those who can't possibly compete.
--Pro: This furthers the existing gear price restriction that would keep people from going in with top tier stuff all the time while removing the ability to use maxed passive buffs in militia gear and similar. They could still go, but it would always be at a significant cost in ISK. They could not maintain an indefinite presence and would be forced to periodically refresh their stores in Low or Null Sec where they're back on more even ground.
--Con: There may be a number of reasons for a developed character to return to High Sec. We just don't know enough yet.
Now, there's one skill type in particular that is a real sticking point for me personally, and I believe a number of experienced FPS players will agree is out of place. Few of the EVE players may feel the same.
Accuracy.
From the view of an FPS player, there are only two things that should have an effect on your ability to hit a target. The ability of a given gun to be accurate. The ability of a player to work with that gun's accuracy to hit his target.
Introducing a random element that supposedly increases accuracy is badly out of place in an aspect where player skill is what's required, not character skill. What these actually seem to do is to penalize your player's ability to aim well for as long as you don't have these skills. Furthermore, it introduces added imbalance to combat as fewer shots hitting means less damage. In effect, this becomes a damage self denial skill that you absolutely have to put points in to get out from under it. The RPG aspects of Dust most certainly have their place in the game, but aim is pure Shooter skill.
What meaning can it have for your next shot to topple empires if the game simply decides arbitrarily whether or not you were accurate enough to make it regardless of how well you were aiming? |
Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
414
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 02:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
The clones you respawn into may not be free in released game.
In EvE, the cost of the new clone after each death is based off the skill points it can hold. So, players with many skills that don't move to more profitable areas will have to spend an ever increasing amount of isk on each respawn as they gain sp, or they lose skill points for dying with a insufficient clone. There is a spot on the menu for clone, so I think it will use this to prevent the problem. They may have it turned off since it is tested in eve already, and would just make testing more complicated with out contributing to bug/imbalance finding.
When i was playing EvE I stopped using cheap frigates when my clones started costing as much as my frigates, might as well use 15mil isk ship instead of 2mil isk one when a new clone is about 20mil with implants to replace. Why would anyone use militia if repawning cost 50,000isk? Should be enough of a stick to go with the carrot for most to go to FW/low sec/null sec/wormhole(if dust ever adds wormhole space)
My scout suit char from dust beta would need to spend 470,000isk per respawn if it was in eve, dust clones are clearly cheaper, but the clone cost could be set to keep high skilled charators out of high sec. Most of the time at least.
Another way could be concord(eve police) fines/standing loss in high sec for killing players with vastly lower sp, low sec could only cause lose of concord standing(eventually preventing entering highsec at all if to low). Faction war, killing pirate faction players, and null sec would have no such fine/loss, so the players that move to these areas and leave the noobs in high sec alone could freely enter high sec for tournaments/trade and kill any noobs that choose to enter the higher profit areas without penalty doing so. |
Cobalt Monkey
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 04:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Good stuff there, Ten.
Well, not exactly all good, but certainly a lot to think on. +1
While that would certainly curtail the newbie hunting, I'm not sure I like the idea of having to pay for respawns. Depending on how badly the game goes and how much you have, you could bankrupt yourself in a single round. I'm not sure how common clone loss is in EVE, but I can assure you it's going to be quite high in Dust. I expect you don't lose, say, ten freighters and clones per character per battle, even if it goes badly, right? So, I'm not sure how well that would translate from one genre to another.
And while it's true that people would probably be a lot less reckless if death had an even larger consequence than loss of equipment, that loss of equipment is likely cost enough to keep recklessness in check to a large degree.
We're still really waiting to see what exactly the various Sec levels will do to Dusters since they seemingly can't do the same things as in EVE. For example, how would Concord come get a Dust player? Show up on the battlefield and randomly shoot at you? That's the only place Dust characters exist that we know of, as of yet. So much we just don't know. Something else we'll have to wait and see on. For now all we can do is offer up suggested solutions to the problems we perceive might happen. |
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 04:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
I imagine you would purchase clones much like you do the gear in Dust.
Could be totally wrong but buying say 100 clones that would keep up to 10mil SP should cost maybe 1-2 million but by the time you need that nuch SP retention you make that in one battle.
Or alternatviely they use the basic system as in EVE where you buy a certain level of clone grade only in dust it comes with again say 100 clones at whatever cost they feel appropriate. unlike in EVE where you replace it everytime you die or you cry and probably rage quit.
All that being said any cost for clones could deter newbie hunting further.
Edit
IIRC the first level of clone in EVE is free or at least very inexpensive and can be used for at least a short time without fear of losing SP.
Again i could be completely wrong. At this point I'm guessing. |
Medtronik
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
19
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 05:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
I agree that the gap between highly trained clones and newbies could be the largest deterrent to any new players picking up the game after release. Good ideas in the posts above. I would guess that Devs have something in mind already that hasn't been implemented since the game is still in relatively early stages of beta. Having a skill cap or range for Merc contracts (matches) could work as well. |
Cobalt Monkey
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 05:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Skill cap or range per match is a nice idea. Wonder what they could base it on? Maybe Sec level, but if Dusters can and may have reason to cross between the different levels, then what might be a good criteria?
A Clone Value Pack (TM) would work out better than a constant replacement, that's for sure.
I love lore, and though I don't think it should effect gameplay, I'm curious. I was under the impression that for Dust it's only clones that go down to fight and it's just your character's mind that jumps between them. If that was the case, then wouldn't the Original (you) be relatively safe wherever it is that he hangs out? And it's the Original that's getting the skill increases, not the clones directly. Wouldn't you need to target the Pod thing to take out the Original? But Dusters don't have Pods, or at least none that we can interact with.
Agh. Brain hurts. Too much missing info! Throw us a bone, CCP!
Aww, they will as soon as they can, I know. It's frustrating though.
EDIT: Awesome. I happened across another post where it's all explained by this Leovarian L Lavitz person. +1 to him.
Leovarian L Lavitz wrote:Lilianna Sentinel wrote:Leovarian L Lavitz wrote:Cloning Vats contain jovian designed clone reanimation units. Cloning vats are far too large and require enormous energy to activate compared to the new generation of emperian technology used in the dust CRUs. The dust CRUs transfer consciousness verses the entire brain state that a cloning vat transfers. I don't follow. Are you saying that clones in dust are remote controlled? No, they take a base brain state from the cloned individual and then replicate it through an entire range of clones before the match. These are your skills and such and why you can't invest skillpoints during a match. The data upon death is then transferred to these 'warm' clones without needing an entire brain scan and then complete construction of neural pathways via focused fluid routers. You basically only transmit a very small(relative) amount of data from your brain via the forth cortex implant which is fused through the higher regions of consciousness and local memory. The implant itself has solid state memory which gives the wearer eidetic recall, and is the main driver for the instant transfer of consciousness between the old and new clones while retaining the memories of events. It simply sends the memory data to the new clone instead of a full brain ten billion brain cell network map, which is what capsuleer systems do. EDIT: I'll crack open my copy of EVE Templar One and give you a more detailed description or page number tomorrow.
So, yeah. If there is a cost to clones, then it's going to be much, much cheaper, and I doubt you risk losing skills.
If they ever assign Dusters a Pod though that might change. |
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 05:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
I don't even know all the specifics on the EVE side regarding clones and I play it guess I should read more. |
Cobalt Monkey
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 05:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
lol You posted just in time to miss my edit. :D |
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 06:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Good info. |
Cobalt Monkey
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 06:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Something else just occurred to me.
The Attackers in Skirmish and both sides in Ambush have a limited amount of clones that can be fielded. It might be up to the corp that's ordered the attack/defense that pays for clones if they do cost, and not the players themselves. |
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Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 08:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tu quoque Cobalt
You stole my thread.
I at least quoted you in my thread, you din't even mention me here 
Just joking. 
Anyway there is also my solution: remove those passive skills (DMG/HP) that don't have trade-offs or add trade-offs to them.
What more DMG = no HP bonus...and vice versa. |
daniel philp
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 09:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
I always though the people paying for the clones should be the people hiring you, there the ones wanting you to die for them why not pay the cost for it.
I was also thinking that clones rely only need a one time pay to upgrade the clone grade, a small isk sink would be good for the dust 514 players but charging them a fee every time can risk new players having a hard time in battle losing a lot of isk or even old players too. |
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 23:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
I just reread Ten's post and actually really like the idea of fines it still allows the sandbox but there would be penalties for just sitting around on the battle moons killing the noobs all day.
The fines wouldn't even have to be that big individually just cumulative and include the loss of standing.
The only problem I see is if it based solely on SP levels it would suck to be a vet in a corp that goes to war with a corp with any amount of noobs. So perhaps fine wouldn't apply to the wars.
More food for thought I suppose. |
Rykenth Drekk
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
76
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 23:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Okay. I would imagine a few things. That firstly. They will have it close to the way that EVE itself works. Like in High sec. There's just certain things you can't do. Not allowed. Like you can't take titans into high sec for an example. You can't bubble up in high sec. Just some examples. So basically the way it works is this: In EVE. There's high sec mechanics, low sec mechanics, and null sec mechanics. None of which work the same as any other. Some aspects remain the same, yet are still very different in many ways. And there are things that you will remember too. Certain things won't be allowed in high sec on Dust either. Like I heard you won't be allowed to do Orbital Strikes in high sec? Not sure if it's true or not, but that's what I heard. And even those going to null sec will have a certain point they're gonna reach out there. It will be balanced. And CCP did well with the balance of the different high, low, and null sec balancing in my opinion.... I would assume they'll do just as well with Dust.
EDIT: And this loops back to the safe factor in EVE. It's never safe. I know guys who load up with smart bombs and go to noob stations in EVE, wait for six or seven to undock, and let them fly. Kills their little ships, pods, everything, and they even die by concord after. They don't really care. They do it because they can. So if Dust is given too much of a "Safe" advantage. EVE players will do a Jita Protest again, on GP. Just because it's not on even killing ground... |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 23:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Cobalt Monkey wrote:
The Problem
Passive skill buffs provide too much advantage over new players at no risk.
Not really too much of a problem and they don't really.
Only a dedicated griefer would work that hard to level up passive skills to use them to pick on new players. For everyone else the reward is not really going to be there in only fighting new players, since there will be other things to do that are a lot more interesting/ lucrative. If you can propose a guaranteed solution to stop greifing in any console game I will support that.
A percentage gain of not much damage (militia weapons) is still not much damage. I did not see any numbers so it is hard to say what you get, exactly, with your passive skills, in a passive skill boosted vs. no passive skill militia vs. militia match up. But my feeling is that the player with the better shooting skills will always win this match up. |
Cobalt Monkey
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 05:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
This is the highest damage bonus we've found based on flat skill bonus.
Quote:Submachine Gun Operation gives 5% damage per level for 25%. +15% for Weaponry for 40%. That's the highest passive I can see. And of course, if you add in more damage through accuracy, variable though it is, it's not an insignificant amount. Anywhere from 5% to the full 25% depending on player skill (which likely favors those with experience) for a final total of 45% to 65% in any given encounter.
Also, that doesn't account for RoF increases, so there's that too.
And it's only about 10% less on ARs.
It's not insignificant. 
The story is a little better on the defense side as the most we can find is 25% to shields, armor, and bumps (I think 15%) to their respective regens.
Even if it's only used to augment militia equipment, that's a lot better than the unbuffed militia equipment.
And the thing is, you don't have to be a dedicated griefer to end up in this situation. You can be a casual player. No matter the incentive to move on, the casual player just wants to sit down and shoot people for a couple of hours a night. They'll outclass any newbies within a couple of month's time. These are the players who play a shooter for a year, hit the level cap (in this case, the newb slaughtering ceiling) part way in, and never prestige, remnant, whatever you want to call it. This is what you're up against, that mentality.
And with the way Dust is never the same map (or so we hear) they're unlikely to get bored due to CoD's infamous "Mapathy." Plus, not having to pay an added $60 for the various map packs like certain other franchises might convince them to stay.
Or, say they do quit for a few months when the next title shooter they play comes out. When they come back they'll have a relatively huge pile of SP waiting on them, as I understand it. So, even if they're not a problem off the bat, it's possible it'll still happen later on. Not out of malice, but instead from simple lack of ambition.
That's why you need the stick instead of just the carrot.
Without something to force them to move on, they won't.
@Drekk,
We do have faith in CCP's ability to make a new game, even if it's in a field that's alien to them. But at the same time, it's not going to hurt to bring our own experience in the genre to the table for them to consider, right? If they're good at it, then they'll certainly pick out whether or not any advice has merit.
You could point out that this isn't just an FPS, and that's true. But by that same token, this is as much new territory for them as it is for us. They've never tried to stick the RPG and RTS elements into a shooter before. A little more to draw on couldn't hurt.
I'm not sure how much weight a protest in EVE would carry when you're trying to influence someone else's game. Especially with the possibility of a counter-protest now. Dust mercs can always go passive and ignore EVE contracts. This certainly wouldn't be good for Dust, and killing Dust (and thereby dealing a blow to CCP's bank account) is probably not in your best interest.
Or Dusters might even take down the info of those involved (you better believe that spying will go both ways) and simply refuse to work for them, but not their enemies. I doubt EVE corps would miss a chance like that to sweep an enemy's territory unopposed... |
Ventis Gant
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 05:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
Number 2 already exists, due to the increased costs of each additional level. Level V costs as much as all four previous levels combined. That's not so bad at 4x SP...but when we are at normal SP, even with boosters, it will take a while to hit level V for a lot of skills, especially the suit skills, being that they are 8x skills right now. I earn 62640 SP per day with my EvE character if I'm training a skill that I am attribute speced for. That includes some expensive implants. It is not the absolute maximum SP/hour, but it is fairly close. I don't know what average level of SP/day CCP is shooting for (they have said around 7 years to max all skills, but without knowing the total SP required for those skills, its tough to get an estimate).
For the sake of argument, however, assume that around 60k to 65k is going to be average. Some people will be higher, because they can play all day most days, some will be much lower, of course. That is two months or so just to max out one suit type. Even if you assume 100k is average, then more than 40 days to max out one suit type. Or put another way, about 5 days for every training time multiplier a skill has, but only 2.5 days or so for level IV...always half the time to level IV. And the difference between level IV and V, even accounting for the boost that going to prototype gives, except for possibly proto suits, is fairly small. Its there, but its not game breaking.
As for accuracy, I can see where you are coming from, but again, the accuracy gains aren't huge..you aren't 5 times as accurate at V as at one, and its a skill that you will train anyway, because you need it for improved equipment. Also, every weapon that I've tried goes to maximum accuracy when you use the aim mode. ARs become pinpoint accurate, at least until recoil pushes you off target. So do sniper rifles, pistols, and SMGs I believe. Reduced recoil from skills is probably more useful in aim mode than a smaller bullet spread area in hip fire mode (which is what skills that improve accuracy actually change).
As for passive skills in general...the cumulative bonuses of a truly high SP character certainly give a solid advantage over a new player. But probably no more advantage than simply knowing how the game works. The vet's biggest advantage is knowing what types of tactics and fittings work in this particular game. The newb's biggest disadvantage isn't going to be the lack of SP, it will be that he doesn't yet know how to properly fit his suit. You see this in EvE all the time. Dual tanking (either attempting both armor and shield tanks, or mixing passive and active shield tanking, or really, using anything but buffer tanking for PvP), is one of the cardinal sins of ship fitting in EvE, but you see it all the time on kill boards when new players die. Same thing for fitting against bonuses (there are reasons to do so, but it takes an experienced player to know when, and on what ships it can work). When (or if) we have role bonused suits, you will see newbs fitting an AR bonused suit with shotguns, or a shield bonused suit with armor. The vet knows not to do these things.
The SP differences begin to become less important when you remember how complex and confusing this game is going to be for brand new players. Remember that its not just "train up Assault suit and AR skills and you are good to go". Its more like "train up electronics and engineering so you can fit mods, train up mechanics and related skills for armor, train up shield skills so you can shield tank, but remember that you are Amarran, so the shield skills aren't as useful right away because all the amarran stuff is bonused for armor...and oh, yeah, since you are amarran, all those SP you put into the Minmatar versions of the AR instead of the laser AR are kind of useless, unless you fit Minmatar weapons to your suit, but that would be dumb because your suit is bonused for amarran weapons. Don't forget to train up all the light weapons skills too, and the sidearm skills, while you are at it. And grenades, and nanohives, and drop uplinks, and the half dozen other support skills you need to really excel at your role". That is what will face a new player...if they can survive that, then getting owned by vets for awhile while they train skills up to III or IV, which will let them compete with players of similar "player skill", even those who have most stuff to V, will be kind of minor.
Many if not most players who pick up this game will find it too complex for their tastes. Nothing wrong with that. Its supposed to be a fairly complex game. EvE is a niche game that only appeals to a fairly small slice of the MMO market. CCP has resisted the urge to try to make it WoW in space so they can have millions of subscriptions too. They have stumbled, as with Incarna, but they always seem to find ways to make the game better. Not everyone is happy, all the time, but that is the nature of an MMO. It is always in a state of rebalancing, especially in a game that encourages players to use game mechanics in unforeseen ways. DUST will be a niche game that only appeals to a fairly small slice of the FPS market. CCP will resist the urge to try to make it (insert super popular FPS title here) in space so they can have millions of players too. They will stumble, but we, the loyal, long term, play for years and years players, will be here to help them keep finding ways to make the game better. |
Cobalt Monkey
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 06:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Good post.
I do have a few counter-points, if I may.
Is not the target of making Dust an FPSMMO to appeal to a wider audience and get more profit? After all, if they wanted to maintain their niche status, would it not have been better to go with a pure RTS element, where EVE players could easily transition over and fight their battles over territory that way without all the risk of involving the PS3 crowd and Sony? Surely RTS is more similar to EVE's sandbox, and much more easily integrated. A Starcraft in spa--erm, *cough* Another Starcraft?
In going for the FPS crowd in any capacity, I believe they're trying to step out of that niche and move a bit more onto center stage. They're not like other upstarts in the market that the current FPS giants can sweep aside either. This is an established company that's got the resources and experience to make a play for the top, and they're already on a much, much better pricing scale than the nearest competition. Free for the same level of quality (AAA) and ever expanding content is just a tad better than the $120 you'd be paying for all of a CoD title's content, for example. Smacks of a power play to me.
I haven't heard anything about character or race specific bonus/penalties. If they are in EVE, then I certainly wouldn't be surprised to find them included. I'd love a source if you have one. The more we know, the better we can tailor our feedback.
If a vet's best advantage is already experience (and I do agree with you there), then do they really need a boost in addition? A vet should be more than able to handle a newbie on level ground, so why do they need the high ground? Gear is controlled by the price risk to payout ratio, but even in militia the vet is superior to a newbie in the same kit. Not just that he's better at the game, but actually better by default in addition to his wisdom. How much advantage does he need?
The difference between rank IV and V isn't that huge, so even at IV there's still a notable advantage. Plus, if they don't go for all 5 ranks right off, then they can more easily spread their advantage around. Instead of rank V in ARs, they're rank IV in ARs, SMG, and Mechanics. Doesn't really help the situation.
Lastly, on accuracy. If you're going to put points into it anyway to unlock equipment, then why is it needed to have other effects at all? Especially one that weakens the player's own skill from the outset? It does "decrease" kick and spread, but isn't it the player's own skill to account for those that's a major component of FPS gameplay?
I understand the RPG roots, believe me. And when an RPG character gets an extra 25% to their attack accuracy, that's great. But you're also not the one controlling where the sword/laser blast goes precisely in that type of game. You're just designating a target and commanding an attack. That doesn't translate well to FPS. |
Longshot Ravenwood
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
680
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 07:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
Realism:
Accuracy: The first time you pick up a handgun in real life you spread is ****, unless you're a complete natural. The progression toward improving this is both skill based for the character & the player. As a player you can compensate for a character once you identify the spread that they fire with, just like you can compensate for your own spread once you know where you put it. Only practice will tighten it and even then only if you're actively focusing on your own progression.
Damage: A combination of accuracy & handling. Where you put the bullet impacts the damage your opponent takes, but if you properly maintained your weapon before going into combat it'll be that much more effective, etc...and it comes down to more than just hitting your target. The damage bonus is implied, setting a specific spin to help penetrate shields, placing the force of a knife strike through & behind the target instead of across the front of the target. There's a good deal of intent present in the actions being taken.
Shield/Armor/Powergrid/CPU: Direct application of character knowledge. I've got not idea how I'd overclock my computer, but I know other people would know how to do it. Likewise I'd image in this 'world' there are people who know how to draw more power, set up their armor & shileds so that it deflects more effectively, etc..
Balance:
Right now I'm able to gain between 20k & 70k skill points on a militia geared character per match. That'll translate to 5k-17.5k skill points per match, which could give someone a Saturday where they put the effort into maxing a skill that they use frequently. If that's how that player wants to play I wouldn't want to deter it by reducing his returns on that skill until he moves into a different area.
Beyond making sure that NPC Contracts & gameplay rewards strongly support competitive gameplay, it's going to be difficult to "balance" passive skills without punishing people unnecessarily, including the people you're trying to protect. |
Cobalt Monkey
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 08:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Not to be blunt, but I completely disregard realism the second it starts to negatively impact gameplay. I love lore, but it's not king in a skill based game, which the FPS part of this is.
Then again, this isn't just about me. Both EVE and FPS players have spoken in favor of such a thing, though not specifically on this issue. I'll have to leave it in the hands of CCP.
Freedom of play is no excuse for a lack of balance. It's a sandbox, great. But there's only so much you can do with sand, and it does have to be kept in the box. You can build a sandcastle, but not a functioning particle accelerator. Your inability to do so is in no way a restriction on your imagined freedom to do so.
By all means, do whatever you want within the confines of the game. But you have to accept that there are limits.
I'm not sure how the newbies are being punished by having it so people can't walk all over them, and being encouraged and rewarded for moving on so as not to do the same. |
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fenrir storm
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
314
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 11:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
It's a fact of most games, think about most mmorpg games if your new and you jump straight into the pvp element no matter how skillful you are your going to get ripped apart, you need to skill and gear up.
Trouble is today every one wants it all and they want it easy to get without haveing to put much work in .
Player a plays 400 hours and as skilled up and geared up as best he can and destroys player b who has played 60 hours how is this unfare.
As for restricting the use of malitia gear in I can see your point but you cant lookiafter the lower end of the player base by making the higher end suffer for haveing put the time and effort into the game.
And tbh I'm one of those players who dose'nt have a lot of free time to play but others should not suffer for that. |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 12:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
I have played years of FPS: I have all the necessary training to handle myself against strangers.
These RPG style safe zones and in-game skills are pointless in FPS.
I can be a newcomer to a particular FPS but I am a veteran FPS player: in-game skill can't discriminate me because I din't spend enough time in Dust 514.
I can now pick any FPS and be good even with inferior gear and with no in-game skills. |
Ventis Gant
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 13:33:00 -
[23] - Quote
@Cobalt Monkey
Good points all. I guess the main point that I wanted to make is that newbs are going to be screwed anyway, so the skills advantage isn't that major. As far as suit role bonuses, I have no concrete source, only that EvE ships have them, and that if they plan on having, for example, scout suits for each race, it would be very, very difficult to differentiate them sufficiently without suit bonuses. Honestly, as far as vets messing with the newbs, yes, that will happen. It happens in EvE, too. But another thing about EvE is that for every vet that just wants to make the newbs cry and quit, there is at least one vet that is willing to take them under their wing. Honestly, after release, if you are playing with randoms, you are probably going to get splattered, no matter what equipment and skills, player or character, you have. I'd be willing to bet that 12 guys in full prototype gear who aren't working together would easily be defeated by 12 guys in militia gear that are working as a well oiled team. Newbs are probably going to have to find a good corp pretty quickly, simply because playing with randoms is always going to be a quick way to get destroyed.
If we take the fact that newbs are going to have to find a player corp, or at least a vet to mentor them, as a given for any kind of real success, then there are many roles a newb can take on until they can catch up with skills. Right now, vehicle gunners who aren't the pilot have no effect on the turrets they are using. Its all about the pilot. If you look at the weapons skills for vehicles, none of them have a built in bonus that I'm aware of. So a newb could start off as a vehicle gunner, and can gain quite a lot of SP that way. Or, they can be the squad member that actually does all the hacking for your squad/fireteam, while the more experienced and better fit vets on the team protect them. Newb gets the hack SP, and the vet gets the kills protecting the newb while he hacks. There are probably a lot of other roles that don't require much SP while the newb gains player and character skill.
In the long run, I think it comes down to the fact that EvE players expect to see some sort of small bonus from each level of skill gained. Right now, we even have dead levels of some skills, such as the third level of the suit skills. If the suit skill had some sort of built in bonus, it wouldn't hurt quite so much to take level III of those skills. Although, if it works like it does in EvE, that particular skill doesn't provide direct bonuses, but rather is keyed to the ship bonuses. Anyway...I see where the FPS viewpoint is coming from...it should be all about player skills, but, because this game also has RPG elements, there has to be a balance somewhere in the middle. I don't want having all Vs in everything to make up for poor skills, and I don't believe that they do, but I do want having put a lot of time into the game to give me an edge. Honestly, as a sniper, my skills mainly increase damage per shot, and the skill that reduces sway mainly increases rate of fire, not accuracy. Realistically, it would only help me if skills didn't make ARs more accurate, because a scoped sniper rifle always hits right where you aim (at least as long as hit detection is behaving, anyway). Hmm...maybe I ought to just agree with you to make my game easier, |
Cobalt Monkey
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 16:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
It wouldn't help as much as you might think. Remember, the guns themselves would have to be set to a reasonable level of kick and spread from the get go.
Btw, did you know about clicking L3 between shots? Kills sniper sway completely. Give it a try. :)
These solutions are all geared toward finding a balance between FPS and RPG. All represent a great deal of compromise. The FPS crowd wants all these skills gone completely. The EVE players want them all left intact, and more added. What these proposals do is try to find a way to limit their influence somewhat without completely invalidating them. And remember, that limit gets smaller and vanishes depending on where you are. To use an EVE example, you can't bring certain ships (Titans?) into High Sec, right? Does that mean there is no advantage whatsoever to having them? Not at all. It just means that there are certain places in the game where that particular advantage doesn't apply.
In an RPG the primary advantage of playtime is better stats and an understanding of the character development system.
In an FPS it's player experience in gun skill, awareness, and tactical thinking (though all games share both genre's things to a degree). That isn't something you can put a number to, but here it is something that a large enough set of numbers can invalidate. That's going to be a major turn off for this game's target audience. What we've proposed doesn't remove that, but it does curtail it.
Newbies are just that, new at this. They won't function as a well oiled team. And as many are quick to point out, good vets are always going to be off in the more profitable areas.
I can certainly agree that there will be clans dedicated to helping out. I will be in one of them; [/\] Axis in Allies. We always make it a point to be helpful to those that want it in any game we enter. It's my hope we can get set up in this game as well. But any help we might offer goes for nothing if the newbies are chased off by impossible fights before they can ever find us.
I will concede that the gear removal proposal is a detriment to those players that do want to just help newbies though.
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Ventis Gant
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 13:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
Something occurred to me about one of the major differences between EvE ships and modules and Dust suits and modules. In EvE, you don't have a new module or ship that is clearly better for each level of a skill. You have regular, meta 0, tech 1 stuff that usually opens up on the first level of a skill, and you have tech 2 (not to be confused with type 2 or tier 2) stuff that usually requires one or more skills at level V. Tech 2 ships in EvE typically require the racial ship skill (Minmatar Frigates or Caldari Cruiser or whatever) to V, plus one or more support skills to V, and then a skill for whatever specialty that tech 2 ship fulfills to level one.
The meta levels of gear that fill in the gaps between regular tech 1 gear (all of which is now manufactured by players), and tech 2 gear (all of which is also manufactured by players) is stuff that drops from NPCs. The higher the meta level of the gear, the lower the drop rate for that item. Meta 1-3 gear is usually fairly inexpensive, although more expensive than Meta 0, but Meta IV is usually quite a bit more expensive than Tech 2, is near tech 2 in ability, but requires fewer skills.
With that information, you see why it is important for every skill to have passive bonuses, because getting tech 2 gear is a commitment, and while it is "better" than tech 1 gear, in many cases, especially with ships, it is also specialized. Covert ops frigates are great for spying and stealth bomber frigates can use battleship size launchers, but they have paper thin tanks and won't stand up well in a direct fight. I actually think the tiered system they are using for all the equipment right now is a mistake. EvE online is busy getting rid of ship tiers (they had role bonused ships, but higher tiered ships had better fitting, so the lower tiered ships didn't see much use, even when they had better role bonuses). What we need, for example, is several versions of the scout suit, all unlocked at level one of the skill, that are bonused for different things. One for sniper, one for stealth, one for super speed, or whatever. Then you a bunch of tech 2 suits that unlock with level V of the skill, are much more specialized as far as how they are bonused, and that also require one or more other skills to V (maybe the sniper suit also requires sniper rifle to V, or whatever makes sense). Same with sniper rifles. You have the Sniper rifle, charge SR, and Tactical SR that unlock as they currently do at level one, but you don't get another equipment upgrade until you hit prototype rifles (which already take the same skills that tech 2 weapons would take). And the prototype rifles should be more specialized than the base level. The tactical can stay more or less where it is, but the regular sniper gains a much longer zoom on the scope, making it great for extra long range, but harder to use at closer ranges because you are actually TOO zoomed in to track well at "tactical" ranges, with the charge being somewhere in between.
Anyway...beyond the specifics, once I realized that you don't really get better gear every level like we do (or will once they fill in the empty levels) in eve, it makes much more sense that if you get better gear each level, you need the passive boosts less, and vice versa. I just happen to think we should keep the passive boosts and get rid of the new gear every level. What do you think Cobalt? |
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 13:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
^^^
I actually agree with you however they would need to drop some the SP requirements so that you would still feel like you were progressing. I think that might just be the reason its been done this way so far.
I would like to unlock advanced stuff at level three but that is just my desire. |
Cobalt Monkey
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 14:56:00 -
[27] - Quote
It's tough to say until we know what they plan to do with those dead levels, and what the final stats of the gear will be.
I'm fine with the passive bonuses as long as they don't grant too much in the wrong situations, but I'd much rather have some practical applications.
For example, someone with enough AR ranks could reload while running.
Enough Forge Gun ranks giving a slight boost to splash radius.
Spec for Dropships and learn a couple new maneuvers. Such as being able to sacrifice shields temporarily to instead use that energy to pick up an LAV, or a few extra troops (think projecting the shield down in a bubble as opposed to up in a bubble around the ship, or maybe turning the repulsion effect into an attraction effect).
Dropsuits could have synergy with their race's respective weapons, granting extra ammo or an extra weapon slot that only allows a sidearm from the appropriate race. Or maybe something as simple as a little extra jump height.
Stuff like that is what makes me feel progress. Not a few extra numbers, but actually being able to DO new things. See, stuff like this is an improvement, but you still have to know what to do with it. Like the dropship example, it's a useful new ability, but not just a generic gain in power. You still have to learn where and when the appropriate times to use it would be. |
Ventis Gant
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 17:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
I think that the "special" stuff, like reloading while running, larger splash area, etc. can be covered by tech 2 gear. For example, you want a larger splash radius with the forge, so you spec up for the AOE forge gun, but you sacrifice something else (maybe the AOE forge gun carries less ammo, or has a longer reload or charge time, etc.). The eve universe encourages specialization, but as with any form of specialization, you give up one thing to gain other things.
Another thing that occurred to me about how eve players view the eve universe as opposed to how an outsider might feel about it. High sec in eve is "safeish" in that unless you are at war with another player, or have stolen from them or done something else that gives you an aggro tag, other players have to be willing to sacrifice thier ship in order to attack you. This means that they either have a) done the calculations and decided that they can make a profit off of destroying your ship even after they figure up the loss of their own ship, or b) they don't care about the loss, they just want to blow up your stuff to make you mad. Either way, they mostly use relatively cheap stuff for suicide ganking.
However, once you have done something that says "I want to PvP", such as stealing, undocking during a wardec, etc. the gloves come off. They can use anything they have, any ship except for capital ships, and any weapon except bombs. But when you translate this to Dust...well, there isn't any "nonconsentual PvP" in Dust...everyone hits the button that says "join battle", therefore, from the eve player's perspective, you have said "I agree to take the gloves off, I agree to put whatever equipment I choose to use at risk, against anything the other player can afford to throw at me". The Dust equivalent of cap ships is orbital bombardment and unbalanced numbers for null sec battles.
In light of this disconnect, I could support having equipment limited battles available in hisec. If you went by my suggestion of only having the first level gear and prototype (which should really become tech 2) gear, then battles where only tech 1 gear would be available would be workable. The skilled up vets would still have an advantage, of course, but the wouldn't have both top level gear AND skill bonuses. However, these battles should be fairly crappy SP and ISK wise. They should be there mainly to give the newbs at least some chance to gain the baseline skills they need to run with the vets. |
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