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Ventis Gant
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
37
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Posted - 2012.07.11 05:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
Number 2 already exists, due to the increased costs of each additional level. Level V costs as much as all four previous levels combined. That's not so bad at 4x SP...but when we are at normal SP, even with boosters, it will take a while to hit level V for a lot of skills, especially the suit skills, being that they are 8x skills right now. I earn 62640 SP per day with my EvE character if I'm training a skill that I am attribute speced for. That includes some expensive implants. It is not the absolute maximum SP/hour, but it is fairly close. I don't know what average level of SP/day CCP is shooting for (they have said around 7 years to max all skills, but without knowing the total SP required for those skills, its tough to get an estimate).
For the sake of argument, however, assume that around 60k to 65k is going to be average. Some people will be higher, because they can play all day most days, some will be much lower, of course. That is two months or so just to max out one suit type. Even if you assume 100k is average, then more than 40 days to max out one suit type. Or put another way, about 5 days for every training time multiplier a skill has, but only 2.5 days or so for level IV...always half the time to level IV. And the difference between level IV and V, even accounting for the boost that going to prototype gives, except for possibly proto suits, is fairly small. Its there, but its not game breaking.
As for accuracy, I can see where you are coming from, but again, the accuracy gains aren't huge..you aren't 5 times as accurate at V as at one, and its a skill that you will train anyway, because you need it for improved equipment. Also, every weapon that I've tried goes to maximum accuracy when you use the aim mode. ARs become pinpoint accurate, at least until recoil pushes you off target. So do sniper rifles, pistols, and SMGs I believe. Reduced recoil from skills is probably more useful in aim mode than a smaller bullet spread area in hip fire mode (which is what skills that improve accuracy actually change).
As for passive skills in general...the cumulative bonuses of a truly high SP character certainly give a solid advantage over a new player. But probably no more advantage than simply knowing how the game works. The vet's biggest advantage is knowing what types of tactics and fittings work in this particular game. The newb's biggest disadvantage isn't going to be the lack of SP, it will be that he doesn't yet know how to properly fit his suit. You see this in EvE all the time. Dual tanking (either attempting both armor and shield tanks, or mixing passive and active shield tanking, or really, using anything but buffer tanking for PvP), is one of the cardinal sins of ship fitting in EvE, but you see it all the time on kill boards when new players die. Same thing for fitting against bonuses (there are reasons to do so, but it takes an experienced player to know when, and on what ships it can work). When (or if) we have role bonused suits, you will see newbs fitting an AR bonused suit with shotguns, or a shield bonused suit with armor. The vet knows not to do these things.
The SP differences begin to become less important when you remember how complex and confusing this game is going to be for brand new players. Remember that its not just "train up Assault suit and AR skills and you are good to go". Its more like "train up electronics and engineering so you can fit mods, train up mechanics and related skills for armor, train up shield skills so you can shield tank, but remember that you are Amarran, so the shield skills aren't as useful right away because all the amarran stuff is bonused for armor...and oh, yeah, since you are amarran, all those SP you put into the Minmatar versions of the AR instead of the laser AR are kind of useless, unless you fit Minmatar weapons to your suit, but that would be dumb because your suit is bonused for amarran weapons. Don't forget to train up all the light weapons skills too, and the sidearm skills, while you are at it. And grenades, and nanohives, and drop uplinks, and the half dozen other support skills you need to really excel at your role". That is what will face a new player...if they can survive that, then getting owned by vets for awhile while they train skills up to III or IV, which will let them compete with players of similar "player skill", even those who have most stuff to V, will be kind of minor.
Many if not most players who pick up this game will find it too complex for their tastes. Nothing wrong with that. Its supposed to be a fairly complex game. EvE is a niche game that only appeals to a fairly small slice of the MMO market. CCP has resisted the urge to try to make it WoW in space so they can have millions of subscriptions too. They have stumbled, as with Incarna, but they always seem to find ways to make the game better. Not everyone is happy, all the time, but that is the nature of an MMO. It is always in a state of rebalancing, especially in a game that encourages players to use game mechanics in unforeseen ways. DUST will be a niche game that only appeals to a fairly small slice of the FPS market. CCP will resist the urge to try to make it (insert super popular FPS title here) in space so they can have millions of players too. They will stumble, but we, the loyal, long term, play for years and years players, will be here to help them keep finding ways to make the game better. |
Ventis Gant
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 13:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
@Cobalt Monkey
Good points all. I guess the main point that I wanted to make is that newbs are going to be screwed anyway, so the skills advantage isn't that major. As far as suit role bonuses, I have no concrete source, only that EvE ships have them, and that if they plan on having, for example, scout suits for each race, it would be very, very difficult to differentiate them sufficiently without suit bonuses. Honestly, as far as vets messing with the newbs, yes, that will happen. It happens in EvE, too. But another thing about EvE is that for every vet that just wants to make the newbs cry and quit, there is at least one vet that is willing to take them under their wing. Honestly, after release, if you are playing with randoms, you are probably going to get splattered, no matter what equipment and skills, player or character, you have. I'd be willing to bet that 12 guys in full prototype gear who aren't working together would easily be defeated by 12 guys in militia gear that are working as a well oiled team. Newbs are probably going to have to find a good corp pretty quickly, simply because playing with randoms is always going to be a quick way to get destroyed.
If we take the fact that newbs are going to have to find a player corp, or at least a vet to mentor them, as a given for any kind of real success, then there are many roles a newb can take on until they can catch up with skills. Right now, vehicle gunners who aren't the pilot have no effect on the turrets they are using. Its all about the pilot. If you look at the weapons skills for vehicles, none of them have a built in bonus that I'm aware of. So a newb could start off as a vehicle gunner, and can gain quite a lot of SP that way. Or, they can be the squad member that actually does all the hacking for your squad/fireteam, while the more experienced and better fit vets on the team protect them. Newb gets the hack SP, and the vet gets the kills protecting the newb while he hacks. There are probably a lot of other roles that don't require much SP while the newb gains player and character skill.
In the long run, I think it comes down to the fact that EvE players expect to see some sort of small bonus from each level of skill gained. Right now, we even have dead levels of some skills, such as the third level of the suit skills. If the suit skill had some sort of built in bonus, it wouldn't hurt quite so much to take level III of those skills. Although, if it works like it does in EvE, that particular skill doesn't provide direct bonuses, but rather is keyed to the ship bonuses. Anyway...I see where the FPS viewpoint is coming from...it should be all about player skills, but, because this game also has RPG elements, there has to be a balance somewhere in the middle. I don't want having all Vs in everything to make up for poor skills, and I don't believe that they do, but I do want having put a lot of time into the game to give me an edge. Honestly, as a sniper, my skills mainly increase damage per shot, and the skill that reduces sway mainly increases rate of fire, not accuracy. Realistically, it would only help me if skills didn't make ARs more accurate, because a scoped sniper rifle always hits right where you aim (at least as long as hit detection is behaving, anyway). Hmm...maybe I ought to just agree with you to make my game easier, |
Ventis Gant
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 13:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Something occurred to me about one of the major differences between EvE ships and modules and Dust suits and modules. In EvE, you don't have a new module or ship that is clearly better for each level of a skill. You have regular, meta 0, tech 1 stuff that usually opens up on the first level of a skill, and you have tech 2 (not to be confused with type 2 or tier 2) stuff that usually requires one or more skills at level V. Tech 2 ships in EvE typically require the racial ship skill (Minmatar Frigates or Caldari Cruiser or whatever) to V, plus one or more support skills to V, and then a skill for whatever specialty that tech 2 ship fulfills to level one.
The meta levels of gear that fill in the gaps between regular tech 1 gear (all of which is now manufactured by players), and tech 2 gear (all of which is also manufactured by players) is stuff that drops from NPCs. The higher the meta level of the gear, the lower the drop rate for that item. Meta 1-3 gear is usually fairly inexpensive, although more expensive than Meta 0, but Meta IV is usually quite a bit more expensive than Tech 2, is near tech 2 in ability, but requires fewer skills.
With that information, you see why it is important for every skill to have passive bonuses, because getting tech 2 gear is a commitment, and while it is "better" than tech 1 gear, in many cases, especially with ships, it is also specialized. Covert ops frigates are great for spying and stealth bomber frigates can use battleship size launchers, but they have paper thin tanks and won't stand up well in a direct fight. I actually think the tiered system they are using for all the equipment right now is a mistake. EvE online is busy getting rid of ship tiers (they had role bonused ships, but higher tiered ships had better fitting, so the lower tiered ships didn't see much use, even when they had better role bonuses). What we need, for example, is several versions of the scout suit, all unlocked at level one of the skill, that are bonused for different things. One for sniper, one for stealth, one for super speed, or whatever. Then you a bunch of tech 2 suits that unlock with level V of the skill, are much more specialized as far as how they are bonused, and that also require one or more other skills to V (maybe the sniper suit also requires sniper rifle to V, or whatever makes sense). Same with sniper rifles. You have the Sniper rifle, charge SR, and Tactical SR that unlock as they currently do at level one, but you don't get another equipment upgrade until you hit prototype rifles (which already take the same skills that tech 2 weapons would take). And the prototype rifles should be more specialized than the base level. The tactical can stay more or less where it is, but the regular sniper gains a much longer zoom on the scope, making it great for extra long range, but harder to use at closer ranges because you are actually TOO zoomed in to track well at "tactical" ranges, with the charge being somewhere in between.
Anyway...beyond the specifics, once I realized that you don't really get better gear every level like we do (or will once they fill in the empty levels) in eve, it makes much more sense that if you get better gear each level, you need the passive boosts less, and vice versa. I just happen to think we should keep the passive boosts and get rid of the new gear every level. What do you think Cobalt? |
Ventis Gant
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 17:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think that the "special" stuff, like reloading while running, larger splash area, etc. can be covered by tech 2 gear. For example, you want a larger splash radius with the forge, so you spec up for the AOE forge gun, but you sacrifice something else (maybe the AOE forge gun carries less ammo, or has a longer reload or charge time, etc.). The eve universe encourages specialization, but as with any form of specialization, you give up one thing to gain other things.
Another thing that occurred to me about how eve players view the eve universe as opposed to how an outsider might feel about it. High sec in eve is "safeish" in that unless you are at war with another player, or have stolen from them or done something else that gives you an aggro tag, other players have to be willing to sacrifice thier ship in order to attack you. This means that they either have a) done the calculations and decided that they can make a profit off of destroying your ship even after they figure up the loss of their own ship, or b) they don't care about the loss, they just want to blow up your stuff to make you mad. Either way, they mostly use relatively cheap stuff for suicide ganking.
However, once you have done something that says "I want to PvP", such as stealing, undocking during a wardec, etc. the gloves come off. They can use anything they have, any ship except for capital ships, and any weapon except bombs. But when you translate this to Dust...well, there isn't any "nonconsentual PvP" in Dust...everyone hits the button that says "join battle", therefore, from the eve player's perspective, you have said "I agree to take the gloves off, I agree to put whatever equipment I choose to use at risk, against anything the other player can afford to throw at me". The Dust equivalent of cap ships is orbital bombardment and unbalanced numbers for null sec battles.
In light of this disconnect, I could support having equipment limited battles available in hisec. If you went by my suggestion of only having the first level gear and prototype (which should really become tech 2) gear, then battles where only tech 1 gear would be available would be workable. The skilled up vets would still have an advantage, of course, but the wouldn't have both top level gear AND skill bonuses. However, these battles should be fairly crappy SP and ISK wise. They should be there mainly to give the newbs at least some chance to gain the baseline skills they need to run with the vets. |
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