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Direction of the game: Individual player skill vs. co-ordination and teamwork.

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Lilianna Sentinel Bragian Order Amarr Empire 295	Posted - 2012.07.02 16:57:00 - [1] - Quote This really comes back to the strafing argument. Right now, strafing in scout suits is what separates the skilled from the unskilled. Since it makes it hard to aim at someone. I disagree with this. I CAN, and do beat them, but it's not very fun to do so because what this does is put overemphasis on individual player precision and dexterity. When really, this game would be at its best if it instead rewarded the smartest players who work with their teammates. I am probably going to get flamed to hell for this but if there's a tactic in the game that promotes single player heroism that, if they're skilled enough, they can take out whole squads full of players then it probably isn't a very good tactic. Basically what I am saying is that if there was a firefight between six extremely skilled lone wolves and six players who are beginners but they know each other and the game mechanics well enough to utilize effective teamwork and tactics, then the latter team should win. Not saying skill shouldn't apply AT ALL, just saying it shouldn't be the end all be all like it is in Quake. Working among other players as a well oiled machine is one of the many things that makes EVE Online what it is and I feel as though this should be carried over to Dust 514. But as it stands, with mechanics like the lateral movement of scout suits, it seems to reward lone wolf play more often than not. Flame on!
Kyy Seiska Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 188	Posted - 2012.07.02 17:49:00 - [2] - Quote I agree that the emphasis should be on team play and strategy instead of individual skill. Sure skill should matter a lot but like OP said this is not Quake. However I don't really see what the problem is with scouts strafing and jumping around like bunnies, it's not like they are equipped with OHK rocket launchers or railguns. Most scouts I have faced seem rather quishy and they tend to go down rather fast after their shields have been depleted. Sure they might manage to run behind cover to regenerate their shields, but it's not like you are not permitted to use shield boosting modules or even armor repair modules to counter this. The way you give away your position by firing shots or sprinting(?) makes soloing rather risky business, many players don't seem to understand this. This makes it rather fun to see players sprinting to objective only to find 3 players with their barrels pointing at them.
Zekain Kade BetaMax. 931	Posted - 2012.07.02 17:56:00 - [3] - Quote Nope. lone wolves would win hands down..
Lilianna Sentinel Bragian Order Amarr Empire 295	Posted - 2012.07.02 17:57:00 - [4] - Quote I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :)
Zekain Kade BetaMax. 931	Posted - 2012.07.02 18:00:00 - [5] - Quote Lilianna Sentinel wrote: I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that. People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play. go back to cod.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.07.02 18:01:00 - [6] - Quote Lilianna Sentinel wrote: I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) Yes, yes it does but it needs to be limited and balanced not just shell an area with huge damage so no one can get near it
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.07.02 18:03:00 - [7] - Quote Zekain Kade wrote: Lilianna Sentinel wrote: I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that. People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play. go back to cod. i may require clarification on what exactly you mean by this there appear to words missing from sentences
Lephis Phoenix Algintal Core Gallente Federation 24	Posted - 2012.07.02 18:10:00 - [8] - Quote Can anyone explain me please why strafing is such a big thing in this forum?
Lilianna Sentinel Bragian Order Amarr Empire 295	Posted - 2012.07.02 18:10:00 - [9] - Quote Zekain Kade wrote: Lilianna Sentinel wrote: I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that. People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play. go back to cod. CoD, at least the modern CoD, has neither benefit from teamwork or skill. It's just a dumb, random and chaotic game made to sell copies rather than deliver good gameplay. Dust 514 is supposed to be the FPS expansion to EVE Online. A notoriously difficult MMORPG that not only encourages people to work together, it requires it. Last time I checked, you cannot actually own anything larger than a battleship without the assistance of other players. And you work together for a myriad of other reasons. Dust 514 should follow in step. Probably not to the same degree of brutality that EVE Online has, but it should reward teamwork above all else. Lephis Phoenix wrote: Can anyone explain me please why strafing is such a big thing in this forum? Several reasons. Most of which revolving just how out of place it is. There's a good reason why most console FPS games don't rely on precision and skill. The limitations of the gamepad often makes it so that you're fighting the controls just as much as the enemy player just to kill them. This is especially evident in scouts. While you could argue that this makes it more skill based (And therefore better for it), it's not very fun. Oh I am certain it is fun for the person abusing it, but fighting against it isn't very fun. Even if you win.
Zekain Kade BetaMax. 931	Posted - 2012.07.02 18:11:00 - [10] - Quote Bones1182 wrote: Zekain Kade wrote: Lilianna Sentinel wrote: I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that. People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play. go back to cod. i may require clarification on what exactly you mean by this there appear to words missing from sentences **** I hate my key board, all the letter are wearing out. never mind that post, it was just me calling you a noob. here's a small scenario for you. Who would win? My friends and I who play halo occasionally. We aren't in a clan. But we have a tremendous amount of individual skill VS A group of KSI kids who are in a clan that has 20k members. They have routine game nights, and in clan tournaments. And apparently have a lot of team skill. Who would win that 4v4 match? keep in mind that halo is supposed to be a team based game.

Max Trichomes Quantum Kittens Syndicate 68	Posted - 2012.07.02 18:15:00 - [11] - Quote Zekain Kade wrote: Lilianna Sentinel wrote: I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that. People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play. go back to cod. Wha wha what? CoD is the most solo, lone wolf FPS ever made like ever. Me so confused.
Zekain Kade BetaMax. 931	Posted - 2012.07.02 18:16:00 - [12] - Quote Max Trichomes wrote: Zekain Kade wrote: Lilianna Sentinel wrote: I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that. People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play. go back to cod. Wha wha what? CoD is the most solo, lone wolf FPS ever made like ever. Me so confused. COD is a terrible game in every aspect of a game.
Lilianna Sentinel Bragian Order Amarr Empire 295	Posted - 2012.07.02 18:17:00 - [13] - Quote Max Trichomes wrote: Wha wha what? CoD is the most solo, lone wolf FPS ever made like ever. Me so confused. No, that'd be quake. CoD is a game that doesn't reward anything other than blind luck.
Ray seveN Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 71	Posted - 2012.07.02 18:18:00 - [14] - Quote Lilianna Sentinel wrote: I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) Works when I use mass drivers. People stay away from the general vacinity I'm shooting at. it makes defending easier since you cant funnel people in as they come
Lilianna Sentinel Bragian Order Amarr Empire 295	Posted - 2012.07.02 18:20:00 - [15] - Quote Ray seveN wrote: Lilianna Sentinel wrote: I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) Works when I use mass drivers. People stay away from the general vacinity I'm shooting at. it makes defending easier since you cant funnel people in as they come No, I was just making a gag about how his original post clearly belonged in another thread.
Aiden Angel Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 49	Posted - 2012.07.02 19:01:00 - [16] - Quote Zekain Kade wrote: Bones1182 wrote: Zekain Kade wrote: Lilianna Sentinel wrote: I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that. People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play. go back to cod. i may require clarification on what exactly you mean by this there appear to words missing from sentences **** I hate my key board, all the letter are wearing out. never mind that post, it was just me calling you a noob. here's a small scenario for you. Who would win? My friends and I who play halo occasionally. We aren't in a clan. But we have a tremendous amount of individual skill VS A group of KSI kids who are in a clan that has 20k members. They have routine game nights, and in clan tournaments. And apparently have a lot of team skill. Who would win that 4v4 match? keep in mind that halo is supposed to be a team based game. That's a different scenario than what the OP mentioned. I would assume that if you're playing with 3 of your very skilled friends, that you'd usually be using mics and perhaps play together often. Just because you're not in a clan who has routine gaming nights doesn't mean anything. You'd still be teamed up with 3 of your friends. The OP was talking about 6 skilled lone wolves vs 6 players who aren't as skilled yet they play together often and use mics and use team work. The 6 skilled players would not be communicating and would just be running around on their own. Teamwork can trump individual skill any time. I've seen groups of averagely skilled players who use team work, beat groups of lone wolves plenty of times. This most definitely can happen in Halo. Halo is supposed to be a team based game but i've won games 1 on 4 or 2 on 5, etc. I've also had games where i've played against a full party of lesser skilled players, but nobody on my team was partied up or using my mics and we've lost. I've also played with very skilled people on my team, yet we would lose because nobody would be using team work and they'd be more concerned with boosting their KDR then actually capturing the flag. In other cases people get full of themselves and underestimate the other team and these skilled players run around on their own and again, they lose. I don't always use a mic and i'm not always partied up with friends. However, I do love team work and coordinating/communicating together to win. I personally love being a medic type class when available. I like to heal people, supply ammo, revive players and just help keep my teammates alive. I'd sacrifice myself for the objective carrier or while defending the person hacking/capturing/arming the objective. I also change up my role depending on the situation, etc.. I hope there are plenty of options in Dust that will promote team work and reward those who do team oriented actions. If you want to be a lone wolf go play a different game.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.07.02 20:35:00 - [17] - Quote [/quote]That's a different scenario than what the OP mentioned. I would assume that if you're playing with 3 of your very skilled friends, that you'd usually be using mics and perhaps play together often. Just because you're not in a clan who has routine gaming nights doesn't mean anything. You'd still be teamed up with 3 of your friends. The OP was talking about 6 skilled lone wolves vs 6 players who aren't as skilled yet they play together often and use mics and use team work. The 6 skilled players would not be communicating and would just be running around on their own. Teamwork can trump individual skill any time. I've seen groups of averagely skilled players who use team work, beat groups of lone wolves plenty of times. This most definitely can happen in Halo. Halo is supposed to be a team based game but i've won games 1 on 4 or 2 on 5, etc. I've also had games where i've played against a full party of lesser skilled players, but nobody on my team was partied up or using my mics and we've lost. I've also played with very skilled people on my team, yet we would lose because nobody would be using team work and they'd be more concerned with boosting their KDR then actually capturing the flag. In other cases people get full of themselves and underestimate the other team and these skilled players run around on their own and again, they lose. I don't always use a mic and i'm not always partied up with friends. However, I do love team work and coordinating/communicating together to win. I personally love being a medic type class when available. I like to heal people, supply ammo, revive players and just help keep my teammates alive. I'd sacrifice myself for the objective carrier or while defending the person hacking/capturing/arming the objective. I also change up my role depending on the situation, etc.. I hope there are plenty of options in Dust that will promote team work and reward those who do team oriented actions. If you want to be a lone wolf go play a different game.[/quote] 100% agree
Kyy Seiska Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 188	Posted - 2012.07.02 20:47:00 - [18] - Quote Zekain Kade wrote: here's a small scenario for you. Who would win? My friends and I who play halo occasionally. We aren't in a clan. But we have a tremendous amount of individual skill VS A group of KSI kids who are in a clan that has 20k members. They have routine game nights, and in clan tournaments. And apparently have a lot of team skill. Who would win that 4v4 match? keep in mind that halo is supposed to be a team based game. Personally I think halo is a pretty poor example for a team based game. Fast phased shooters like Halo, Quake Arena, Unreal Tournament rely heavily on individual skill of the players. Tactical shooters like Socom, Arma, Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon usually give a far better understanding what team play actually is or can be. Dust 514 falls more in to the category of hybrid tactical shooters, similarly to (gasp) COD: MW, Killzone or Battlefield. 4-players is more like a squad so 4vs4 is pretty small scale battle for team work to actually provide any noticeable benefit. Where as in 8vs8 battle the 8 players could easily be divide to 2 basic squads, one for defending and one for attacking which is just one form of basic strategy in e.g CTF. But to answer your question, your team would win mainly because you and your friends know the game well enough to play as a team even without trying. Not forgetting how you could just use sniper rifle to quickscope OHK their whole team for those juicy multikills and killing sprees while bunnyhopping and collecting powerups untill the match ends.
Card Drunook DoC Deck of Contractors 79	Posted - 2012.07.02 21:07:00 - [19] - Quote In reply to the original post, I agree that this team should encourage the use of teamwork. But you've focused on a tactic that is strongly geared towards one on one fights. I play a scout and I usually can kill people in a one on one fight through dodging, but against more than one person I'm dead. So far I haven't seen anything in this game that allows true lone wolf success when put against a group of players. What I'm saying is that what seems like an unfair advantage right now (such as strafing, or using dropships as artillery) might not be a big deal once we can play as groups. Just something you should think about. All that said, I do agree that this game should be balanced to allow a diverse coordinated team to have an advantage over a team full of rambos.
Max Trichomes Quantum Kittens Syndicate 68	Posted - 2012.07.02 21:07:00 - [20] - Quote Zekain Kade wrote: Max Trichomes wrote: Zekain Kade wrote: Lilianna Sentinel wrote: I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that. People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play. go back to cod. Wha wha what? CoD is the most solo, lone wolf FPS ever made like ever. Me so confused. COD is a terrible game in every aspect of a game. I wouldn't argue with you there, so why do you want Dust to be more like CoD? By making lone-wolfing more appealing, you make Dust more like CoD. CoD is nothing but lone-wolfing. There is no teamwork needed to win CoD. So in one breath you are saying "Let's make lone-wolfing more attactive just like Call of Duty!" and then in your next breath you say "CoD sucks." Well make up your mind friend.

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.02 21:21:00 - [21] - Quote Problem here is that nobody works as an effective team. In that situation, individual skill is the only consideration. And when a team-based game allows healing/repairing/reviving teammates and their vehicles, that aspect makes a MAJOR difference, and even the few times I've seen teamwork happening, there hasn't been any direct support of that kind. From what I've seen, it hasn't been a well-used gameplay element yet, and I think we'll see a HUGE change when people start using those tactics against their opponents.
Majin Sora Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2012.07.02 21:24:00 - [22] - Quote yes and instead of focusing players standings on the team roster purely on K/D ratio they should also add a point system. this would mean that instead of being rated on how many kills and deaths you have (like in COD) you would get graded on how well you played tactically and as a team (i.e. destroying dropships, tanks, cloning stations or hacking , saving other team mates, and resuplying.) or am i getting the wrong picture and this game is based purely on kills ? o.o
Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.07.02 21:25:00 - [23] - Quote Lephis Phoenix wrote: Can anyone explain me please why strafing is such a big thing in this forum? Because it used to make a fun game 4 the skilled players out there.
Lilianna Sentinel Bragian Order Amarr Empire 295	Posted - 2012.07.02 21:39:00 - [24] - Quote Sha Kharn Clone wrote: Lephis Phoenix wrote: Can anyone explain me please why strafing is such a big thing in this forum? Because it used to make a fun game 4 the skilled players out there. Just the opposite, it made the game not so fun anymore. And bear in mind, this isn't a "It isn't fun anymore because I am losing" deal, it's not fun because fighting the clumsy gamepad controls to kill some guy isn't fun. And even though I kill scouts who do this way more often than not, it's not a feeling of "Yes! I beat him!" It's more like "God that was ****in' annoying. Glad that's over with..."
SILENTSAM 69 Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 421	Posted - 2012.07.02 21:42:00 - [25] - Quote I agree and disagree at the same time. Yes the game should be about team work and rewarding team work. The thing is I feel it is already this way. The Scout has a particular role and sometimes that requires the Scout to leave the group. This does not mean he is not part of the team. The different suits seem pretty balanced when they are fit right. Any suit is bad with a bad fit.
Lilianna Sentinel Bragian Order Amarr Empire 295	Posted - 2012.07.02 21:47:00 - [26] - Quote SILENTSAM 69 wrote: I agree and disagree at the same time. Yes the game should be about team work and rewarding team work. The thing is I feel it is already this way. The Scout has a particular role and sometimes that requires the Scout to leave the group. This does not mean he is not part of the team. The different suits seem pretty balanced when they are fit right. Any suit is bad with a bad fit. The problem is that the scout suit's mobility isn't being used to get a tactical advantage quicker, it's being used to dodge attacks and exploit the weaknesses of the gamepad.
Card Drunook DoC Deck of Contractors 79	Posted - 2012.07.02 21:59:00 - [27] - Quote Lilianna Sentinel wrote: SILENTSAM 69 wrote: I agree and disagree at the same time. Yes the game should be about team work and rewarding team work. The thing is I feel it is already this way. The Scout has a particular role and sometimes that requires the Scout to leave the group. This does not mean he is not part of the team. The different suits seem pretty balanced when they are fit right. Any suit is bad with a bad fit. The problem is that the scout suit's mobility isn't being used to get a tactical advantage quicker, it's being used to dodge attacks and exploit the weaknesses of the gamepad. Without the ability to dodge, a scout suit would be at a disadvantage to everything else. We already have a lot less health than everyone else and we don't seem to scale up as well in regards to fitting. And in regards to strafing, try shooting at a scout that is dodging against someone else. It's a tactic that is only really effective at close range against targets you are aware of, against someone who's far away it's not very effective. That said, I do use the scout suit to get both tactical and strategic advantage as often as I can. Which is what it's supposed to be used for. If I'm fighting you head on it's either because I'm throwing myself away to stop/slow you or I just messed up.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.07.02 22:00:00 - [28] - Quote Lilianna Sentinel wrote: SILENTSAM 69 wrote: I agree and disagree at the same time. Yes the game should be about team work and rewarding team work. The thing is I feel it is already this way. The Scout has a particular role and sometimes that requires the Scout to leave the group. This does not mean he is not part of the team. The different suits seem pretty balanced when they are fit right. Any suit is bad with a bad fit. The problem is that the scout suit's mobility isn't being used to get a tactical advantage quicker, it's being used to dodge attacks and exploit the weaknesses of the gamepad. I believe the answer to your problem is that keyboard and mouse control that is coming soon
Lilianna Sentinel Bragian Order Amarr Empire 295	Posted - 2012.07.02 22:02:00 - [29] - Quote That topic has been discussed to death so I won't beat a dead horse here.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.02 22:25:00 - [30] - Quote Those supposed "weaknesses of the gamepad" which make it hard to follow fast-moving targets have never caused problems in War for Cybertron (faster-paced than this, and with more variety in movement speeds), or Space Marine (slower-paced in general, but with a class that's built around high-speed movement who are more mobile than Scouts in DUST) or Resistance (also fast-paced, but more consistent in movement speeds than the other two, or DUST). There are four possibilities here: 1. You suck at the game. 2. You have the sensitivity settings wrong for how you're trying to play. 3. The game's control scheme (NOT the controller itself) needs work. 4. Your controller is faulty.



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