DUST Search - Revisionist New Eden thought experiment.

Vrain Matari wrote:

Full disclosure, this thread was intended as an attempt to separate out the incidentals(poor code, poor mechanics, lag) from the heart of the current conversation we're having, game design.

We all suffered tremendously(the devs more than the players, methinks) from the crappy foundations Dust had but for the conversation going forward we have to forget about that and hone in on the game design. Adding an edit to the OP to also get rid of the PS3 factor.

Dust Fiend makes a great point regarding new player frustration with game mechanics, i'd like riff on that by suggesting there was a feedback loop: crappy mechanics served to amplify players' frustration with game design and vice versa.

Dust lost players on both ends: in the first 15 minutes and in the long term.

Still, something in Dust's game design gave Dust its magic: we all know it's not an easy game to forget and we all know that there's not another game out there that gives the experience Dust did. I want to make sure we identify what that was and keep it in Nova.

Re: the OP imho without the poor mechanics or end of platform issue Dust would have had much longer legs and the deeper playerbase would have alleviated a significant amount of new player frustration. Revenue and server population would have reflected this. That being said, many players above(and the devs, obviously) have identified pathological game design that meant poor long-term prospects for Dust.

Short term crappy and long term pathological, so where did the magic come in?

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Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 3241	Posted - 2017.05.27 00:49:00 - [1] - Quote Short & sweet: Dust launches in early 2012 but with two revisions: it's the version of Dust we had when they shut down the servers, the Rattati'd version it's got butter smooth mechanics, masterful netcode and solid well-distributed servers. Successful? Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 10867	Posted - 2017.05.27 07:27:00 - [2] - Quote Unsuccessful. Vets will still be stomping new friends. New friends never come back to ascend to vet-dom. [I]New[I] new friends join and get stomped. The cycle continues. In a far away land, a prophesy is spread throughout the masses: "How to Improve NPE!" They look towards the horizon for a hero, only to find a red shevron in the distance. It's probably a Thale's. *Scouts United* Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
Viktor Hadah Jr 0uter.Heaven 10557	Posted - 2017.05.27 09:07:00 - [3] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Unsuccessful. Vets will still be stomping new friends. New friends never come back to ascend to vet-dom. [I]New[I] new friends join and get stomped. The cycle continues. In a far away land, a prophesy is spread throughout the masses: "How to Improve NPE!" They look towards the horizon for a hero, only to find a red shevron in the distance. It's probably a Thale's. Yeah, but there would be no "Vets" at that time everyone would be new. None the less the inevitability of dominance of vets would creep up. EVE Trial 250k Bonus SP EVE Chat channel for dust players: Photon Depot
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9345	Posted - 2017.05.27 16:16:00 - [4] - Quote Unsuccessful. Rattati did a bang up job of working with what was there, but far too many core systems were flawed for me to deem the game a success. Project\|Nova - What We Know So Far
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 3245	Posted - 2017.05.28 05:12:00 - [5] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Unsuccessful. Vets will still be stomping new friends. New friends never come back to ascend to vet-dom. [I]New[I] new friends join and get stomped. The cycle continues. In a far away land, a prophesy is spread throughout the masses: "How to Improve NPE!" They look towards the horizon for a hero, only to find a red shevron in the distance. It's probably a Thale's. Damn near poetry, that. Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 10869	Posted - 2017.05.28 07:25:00 - [6] - Quote Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: Joel II X wrote: Unsuccessful. Vets will still be stomping new friends. New friends never come back to ascend to vet-dom. [I]New[I] new friends join and get stomped. The cycle continues. In a far away land, a prophesy is spread throughout the masses: "How to Improve NPE!" They look towards the horizon for a hero, only to find a red shevron in the distance. It's probably a Thale's. Yeah, but there would be no "Vets" at that time everyone would be new. None the less the inevitability of dominance of vets would creep up. At that time, sure. Judging a game like Dust to see if it's successful based on its first numbers doesn't mean anything. The longer it goes on, the farther away the prophesy seems in coming true. Especially if it's no longer in beta. Dust failed because it couldn't retain players, not because players didn't check it out. *Scouts United* Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
byte modal 1330	Posted - 2017.05.28 15:14:00 - [7] - Quote Humble opinion. Even if DUST had your bullet points, it would still only be maybe half of what it would need to be to sustain itself. Things like economy, player progression (zones of some sort, however that plays out. Think: kiddie pool to deep-end progression ...or some way to wean new players on) in combination with some form of match making where there would be a type of sliding scale dependency between the two, adjustments to risk/reward, more approachable UI to reinforce the purpose and function of abstract concepts like pg/CPU to clearly show their affects on suit customization, and skill point rework from active to passive and to show how those affect suit fits and equipment progression more clearly. kitten bacon taco (nom)
DUST Fiend 19239	Posted - 2017.05.28 16:55:00 - [8] - Quote Net positive. If PC worked and were tweaked slightly along with a little higher overall player count then matchmaking would actually start to work again. I didnt really care for the new "waves of opportunity" philosphy for vehicles though, it never made sense in a game with a redline you could easily retreat to. Whoever had that brilliant idea probably shouldnt have. Rage flavored bitter berry #BUS514
DiGreatDestroyer Grupo de Asalto Chacal 364	Posted - 2017.05.28 18:37:00 - [9] - Quote Not sure if successful, but more successful for sure. Like some others have pointed out, the game still lacks: -Meaningful connection with Eve. -Meaningful economy (individual management of resources was OK, I mean between individuals, corps, etc) -Good NPE beyond the academy for when the Proto-Vets would arise. -Good balance between vehicles and infantry. Eventually, the rogue wedding would still have happened (probably a converging point for all worldlines) due to the game being in PS3 and therefore being unable to fulfill the original vision. This would have, like it did in our worldline, crippled the playerbase beyond a point of no return. Maybe more would have stayed for longer, but eventually it would have been shut down as well. BUT, maybe this Dust would have been able to survive until Nova deployed. #KeepDustInThePS3
DeadlyAztec11 10194	Posted - 2017.05.29 23:33:00 - [10] - Quote Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: Joel II X wrote: Unsuccessful. Vets will still be stomping new friends. New friends never come back to ascend to vet-dom. [I]New[I] new friends join and get stomped. The cycle continues. In a far away land, a prophesy is spread throughout the masses: "How to Improve NPE!" They look towards the horizon for a hero, only to find a red shevron in the distance. It's probably a Thale's. Yeah, but there would be no "Vets" at that time everyone would be new. None the less the inevitability of dominance of vets would creep up. It still would. The most understated issue Dust 514 had was that it was very discouraging for new players to have a fun time because all the veterans would be way ahead of them, which gave new players a P2W-esque experience for several months. That discouraged a lot of people who tried to get into the community after release. And as people stated above Mr, having PVE would have solved this. This is why Nova plans to make it so people don't lose ISK in public matches. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 28072	Posted - 2017.05.30 15:27:00 - [11] - Quote if we thought that would have worked, we would have done so. I am certain we can improve and do better. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

DUST Fiend 19252	Posted - 2017.05.30 15:43:00 - [12] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Dust failed because it couldn't retain players, not because players didn't check it out. And it didn't retain players because of how buggy and laggy it was, which also ruined the end game activity for most, forcing them back into pubs with a matchmaking system that never really worked. It had next to nothing to do with game mechanics. Rage flavored bitter berry #BUS514
Lightning35 Delta514 Federation Marines 62 5322	Posted - 2017.05.30 15:48:00 - [13] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Unsuccessful. Vets will still be stomping new friends. New friends never come back to ascend to vet-dom. [I]New[I] new friends join and get stomped. The cycle continues. In a far away land, a prophesy is spread throughout the masses: "How to Improve NPE!" They look towards the horizon for a hero, only to find a red shevron in the distance. It's probably a Thale's. Your last sentences makes the Quafe Master chuckle! CEO of Federation Marines 62 - Bravo Company Gallente - Quafe - Gk.0s/Gv.0s - 72m SP Quafe Master - Quamander - Quad
Lightning35 Delta514 Federation Marines 62 5322	Posted - 2017.05.30 15:50:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: if we thought that would have worked, we would have done so. I am certain we can improve and do better. Agreed. Quick word regarding vehicles, has any thought been put into working on vehicles away from infantry and possibly implementing them through a different game mode? Balancing vehicles against vehicles and away from infantry could possibly allow for future implementation similar to Dust CEO of Federation Marines 62 - Bravo Company Gallente - Quafe - Gk.0s/Gv.0s - 72m SP Quafe Master - Quamander - Quad
LOL KILLZ LulKlz 1472	Posted - 2017.05.30 17:37:00 - [15] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: if we thought that would have worked, we would have done so. I am certain we can improve and do better. +1 Your friendly Pub match logi
Russel Moralles Klandatu 239	Posted - 2017.05.30 23:38:00 - [16] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Short & sweet: Dust launches in early 2012 but with two revisions: it's the version of Dust we had when they shut down the servers, the Rattati'd version it's got butter smooth mechanics, masterful netcode and solid well-distributed servers. Successful? Succesful yes. In the long run no. The problem. The ps3.
DiGreatDestroyer Grupo de Asalto Chacal 366	Posted - 2017.05.30 23:41:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: if we thought that would have worked, we would have done so. I am certain we can improve and do better. Am I the only who thinks this is vague? Like, I dont get what you are referring to xD Could you clarify, se+¦or Rattati? #KeepDustInThePS3
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 3246	Posted - 2017.05.31 01:33:00 - [18] - Quote Full disclosure, this thread was intended as an attempt to separate out the incidentals(poor code, poor mechanics, lag) from the heart of the current conversation we're having, game design. We all suffered tremendously(the devs more than the players, methinks) from the crappy foundations Dust had but for the conversation going forward we have to forget about that and hone in on the game design. Adding an edit to the OP to also get rid of the PS3 factor. Dust Fiend makes a great point regarding new player frustration with game mechanics, i'd like riff on that by suggesting there was a feedback loop: crappy mechanics served to amplify players' frustration with game design and vice versa. Dust lost players on both ends: in the first 15 minutes and in the long term. Still, something in Dust's game design gave Dust its magic: we all know it's not an easy game to forget and we all know that there's not another game out there that gives the experience Dust did. I want to make sure we identify what that was and keep it in Nova. Re: the OP imho without the poor mechanics or end of platform issue Dust would have had much longer legs and the deeper playerbase would have alleviated a significant amount of new player frustration. Revenue and server population would have reflected this. That being said, many players above(and the devs, obviously) have identified pathological game design that meant poor long-term prospects for Dust. Short term crappy and long term pathological, so where did the magic come in? Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17201	Posted - 2017.05.31 01:38:00 - [19] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Full disclosure, this thread was intended as an attempt to separate out the incidentals(poor code, poor mechanics, lag) from the heart of the current conversation we're having, game design. We all suffered tremendously(the devs more than the players, methinks) from the crappy foundations Dust had but for the conversation going forward we have to forget about that and hone in on the game design. Adding an edit to the OP to also get rid of the PS3 factor. Dust Fiend makes a great point regarding new player frustration with game mechanics, i'd like riff on that by suggesting there was a feedback loop: crappy mechanics served to amplify players' frustration with game design and vice versa. Dust lost players on both ends: in the first 15 minutes and in the long term. Still, something in Dust's game design gave Dust its magic: we all know it's not an easy game to forget and we all know that there's not another game out there that gives the experience Dust did. I want to make sure we identify what that was and keep it in Nova. Re: the OP imho without the poor mechanics or end of platform issue Dust would have had much longer legs and the deeper playerbase would have alleviated a significant amount of new player frustration. Revenue and server population would have reflected this. That being said, many players above(and the devs, obviously) have identified pathological game design that meant poor long-term prospects for Dust. Short term crappy and long term pathological, so where did the magic come in? The magic came in during those moments and those battles where the game hit all the right notes. At some points, the game had enough of them to keep playing. At others, we just kept hoping we would catch one moment for old time's sake. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
DiGreatDestroyer Grupo de Asalto Chacal 368	Posted - 2017.05.31 03:09:00 - [20] - Quote Being in a corporation was different than being in a clan in other games. You werent just 50 people, you were something more. You actually did things as a corp, and it had perks beyond just having people to play with. And even in that regard, it was easy to play with people from the corp you didnt know. Some people are saying that if you remove vehicles then you kill the Dust spirit, but I disagree. If you make the corps feel like clans from other games, then you kill the Dust spirit. This, to me, made the game worth playing. Sometimes it was unplayable, but when it was not, and it was crappy, you still had fun playing with your friends. After nailing the basic gameplay, you should focus on the social aspect of the game. I would say, if you removed proto stomping, then the game would have survived for a lot of time. Devs should work to prevent this from happening in Nova. If there were no technical problems, and no balance problems, with the current social meta, even if all the other meta was pure **** (for arguments sake, not saying it was), economy, politics, no eve link, etc... I think most if not all of my corp mates would have played until the end, or maybe until the player base shrinked enough, but for us the biggest deal breakers were the technical problems and the balance issues. #KeepDustInThePS3

Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 617	Posted - 2017.05.31 07:45:00 - [21] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Short & sweet: Dust launches in early 2012 but with two revisions: it's the version of Dust we had when they shut down the servers, the Rattati'd version it's got butter smooth mechanics, masterful netcode and solid well-distributed servers. Successful? Edit: let's also get rid of the PS3: assume that this Dust that never was launched on PC. Successful. Especially because last point - not launching game on old machine gives developers some margine of error on codeing, and it let's to implement more futures, that normally would make PS3 a small bomb. This is Skirmish v1.0. In my free time I like to spend time.
deadpool lifetone D3ATH CARD RUST415 356	Posted - 2017.05.31 11:27:00 - [22] - Quote . Successful : When Rat & company took the helm . ( they made filet mignon with the scraps they were given ) Unsuccessful ( mostly ) : well , we all know the horrors & gaming atrocities that were implemented in the beginning . But , that was to be expected in trying something new & different . You will always have a few failures before perfecting any product . What kept hope alive for a long time for me was ( Caldari Prime Event ) : it showed that CCP has a big vision for the gaming industry . . ( F U!!!! ) * ( Why Dead? ) , (n+Æn+Çn+¢´)GÇón++pâçGòÉS+ÇX - - - - n++(º Gûí º l\|l)/
emm kay Direct Action Resources 437	Posted - 2017.05.31 15:17:00 - [23] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: if we thought that would have worked, we would have done so. I am certain we can improve and do better. you were a damn fine Head director, but it's hard to change the momentum of the game. There is a reason you never see me in battle. it's because I see you first.
Moorian Flav 663	Posted - 2017.05.31 16:27:00 - [24] - Quote EVEn if all those what-ifs were true, the end game mode known as Planetary Conquest was still broken and many had reached the end of their skill tree (or at least what they were interested in unlocking). Taking those two things into consideration, DUST would have still died off around it did. Now if Planetary Conquest was fixed and seemingly relevant once again, DUST would have held interest for a lot longer. For me, everything in DUST was based around Planetary Conquest and I think many others felt the same. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 8143	Posted - 2017.05.31 18:00:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: if we thought that would have worked, we would have done so. I am certain we can improve and do better. Yeah, considering what Rattati managed to pull off working on the shaky foundations of DUST that he inherited, imagine what he can do when rebuilding it from the ground up! Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 3248	Posted - 2017.06.01 13:52:00 - [26] - Quote Regarding where Dust's magic came from, it seems like a fairly short list of candidates: Shingle shard - every player can cross paths and interact with every other player at all times. Shingle shard shared with Eve - shared comms and that sense of being part of something far greater. Social tools - free voice comms, text comms, player volition to create channels, squads, corps. MMO character progression that required players to make decisions that had consequences. A satisfyingly complex fitting minigame that allowed/required players to optimize suits over several variables simultaneously(risk, offense, defense, intel, mobility, utility...) <-this list is actually quite long in Dust. A genuinely brutal battlefield experience. Players knew that what they had, they had earned. An uneven playing field. Every player had faced adversity and poor odds and sometimes come out victorious. These are not necessarily good or bad, and do not necessarily need to be in Nova to give us that magic again. What needs to be added to the list and what can be removed from it? There's a lot of synergy between some of these traits, e.g. points 1, 2 & 3 all build on each other, likewise points 4 & 5. Points 6 & 7 feedback into points 1 & 3. So add what you think is missing and go at what's left with a chinsaw to get to the minimal set of properties to give us that Dust magic in Nova. Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....
byte modal 1334	Posted - 2017.06.01 14:41:00 - [27] - Quote mmmm shingles. ok sorry. going back to read the rest ;) lol. i'm having way too much fun reading that post for some reason!!! " Shingle shard - every player can cross paths and interact with every other player at all times - infecting each other in every instance! Shingle shard shared with Eve - shared comms and that sense of being part of something far greater." "Shingle shard shared" I will be saying that all day today around the office. It's harder than it looks. <3<3<3 This brightened my morning lol. And I don't know why!!! kitten bacon taco (nom)
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 3250	Posted - 2017.06.01 14:53:00 - [28] - Quote byte modal wrote: mmmm shingles. ok sorry. going back to read the rest ;) lol. i'm having way too much fun reading that post for some reason!!! " Shingle shard - every player can cross paths and interact with every other player at all times - infecting each other in every instance! Shingle shard shared with Eve - shared comms and that sense of being part of something far greater." "Shingle shard shared" I will be saying that all day today around the office. It's harder than it looks. <3<3<3 This brightened my morning lol. And I don't know why!!! Clackers are especially terrifying in a shingle shard environment. P.S. Now that you have me lolling about it too i can't bring myself to change it. Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....
NextDark Knight Hellstorm LLC 1027	Posted - 2017.06.01 14:54:00 - [29] - Quote Regardless of what you all say, My group of Dust players would still be logging in and playing today if their servers were up. Everyone gets their panties in a bunch on who's version is better, but at the end of the day, the core players and I will still be deploying if some yuppie character didn't pull the plug on us. Caldari Suit Videos Love Caldari - Since 6/29/2012


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