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Why the new game should NEVER have a vote-to-kick system.

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Maken Tosch Dust University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2016.03.06 23:41:00 - [1] - Quote Today I just witnessed and experienced the receiving end of what is practically an abuse of the vote-to-kick system that one typically sees in Counter-Strike: Global Offensive. This is how it went down this past hour. I was in the middle of a casual match and we all spawned at the start in a single area for my team as usual and started running around trying to practice with my R8 Revolver which, needless to say, is one of the most nerfed weapons in the game. After about a 10-20 seconds into the match a guy sounds off on voice comms telling everyone about boosting and I think he was trying to get people to accept his solicitation or something. I couldn't understand the lingo completely so I may be wrong since I have only recently started playing CS:GO. Then something weird happened. The chat window started to go crazy with texts saying [INSERT RANDOM PLAYER NAME] changed his name to [INSERT RANDOM PLAYER NAME] at a very high speed. I toggled voice comms and said out loud "What the **** is this? Jita Local?" at which point some dude then said "That's the guy, kick him out." All of a sudden a voting window popped up with the majority of the players voting me out. I could have voted NO but I was already outnumbered. There was another player, a kid from the sound of his voice, sounded like he was trying to defend me by saying "Vote NO, you got the wrong guy." but it was too late. Next thing I know the match froze and I wound up back in the main page with the client telling me that I got kicked out. I had no recourse. I was completely vulnerable and the only thing I had to defend myself was to vote NO for kicking me out but even that was not enough when almost everyone was voting against me for no reason. I didn't do anything. How could I? I was just trying to practice in a casual game and all of a sudden I got singled out as soon as I said something? This is wrong. AND THIS IS WHY Dust 514 never had a vote-to-kick system. It's just ripe for abuse. And if it can happen in Counter-Strike, it can happen to any other game that has this feature. There is just no practical recourse and it leaves you with an unfair stigma because "Oh that guy got voted out. He must be bad." So please CCP, do us all a huge favor and don't implement the vote-to-kick system in the new game for PC. No matter how hard people kick and scream for it, don't do it. Doing so will only invite the sort of players who will exploit it over and over while hurting legitimate players who are just looking to have fun. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Echo 1991 WarRavens Imperium Eden 1	Posted - 2016.03.06 23:59:00 - [2] - Quote This is why as soon as you reach rank 3, you play competitive. Change the Ion Pistol Fitting Skill Pls. #PortDust514 'Echo is a dirty hooker' - UnclS2
Maken Tosch Dust University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2016.03.07 00:07:00 - [3] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: This is why as soon as you reach rank 3, you play competitive. Does competitive lack a vote-to-kick function? Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 14	Posted - 2016.03.07 01:53:00 - [4] - Quote What D*cks... Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Operative 1174 Uuali True Companion Planetary Requisitions 1	Posted - 2016.03.07 01:56:00 - [5] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: This is why as soon as you reach rank 3, you play competitive. Competitive should be the type of mode where you can vote to kick. The general pub mode should be for everybody, all the time. Vote to kick is anathema to the idea of the gen pop game area. CCP logic GÇô We fix what doesn't need breaking.
Draxus Prime Nos Nothi 4	Posted - 2016.03.07 01:58:00 - [6] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: This is why as soon as you reach rank 3, you play competitive. Does competitive lack a vote-to-kick function? No but they would be ******* idiots to vtk someone, your losing a player and getting a bot "Spilling floor cleaner only makes the floor cleaner." - Draxus Prime Closed Beta Vet Scout
Lt Royal Subdreddit 3	Posted - 2016.03.07 02:52:00 - [7] - Quote Sounds like this guy was running a script (a hacking mod) himself to me. Also you can boost jump without running any hacks anyway. Gÿ£Gÿ¡GÿP ------- Gÿ£Gÿ¡GÿP
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1	Posted - 2016.03.07 03:29:00 - [8] - Quote Voting for kick was always available. It was necessary to collect only one vote. Anyone always can kick yourself. Please support fair play!
Ahkhomi Cypher Opus Arcana 1	Posted - 2016.03.07 08:36:00 - [9] - Quote He was probably asking for a boost to get over a obstacle. Boost= one player crouches and another jumps on his head to get to a higher spot. He also probably asked you specifically by color (Each teammate is a different color on the map to avoid confusion) and since you didn't understand what was happening you ignored him. They probably thought you were terrible and maybe a BOT would of been more useful. You got voted. The "name changes" happening rapidly can be binded to ping so if its fluctuating the nickname can change really fast. Some people dont know this and actually think its hacking. They probably also thought this was you because the attention was on you for missing the boost. TL; DR You were probably kicked for being a blueberry. Seriously Tyrant King, Opus Arcana
Ahkhomi Cypher Opus Arcana 1	Posted - 2016.03.07 08:39:00 - [10] - Quote Also The R8 nerf was completely justified because it was a pocket AWP when it was released and keeping it that way would've completely ruined the match economy of the game. There was a reason it was banned from Pro matches. Tyrant King, Opus Arcana

steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3	Posted - 2016.03.07 10:25:00 - [11] - Quote In a lobby based game. Vote to kick is a must dispite abuses. Honstely you should just find a pub servers you like and just play on those. Regular playing on the same server let's you learn who regs are and you end up being part of the communty and it ends up way more fun along with no risk of being kicked heh I am among the 1st of my kind, and i will never forget. no empire lasts forever and i have all the time in the world.
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 19	Posted - 2016.03.07 13:25:00 - [12] - Quote In all of my hours of playing CS, I've never been unjustly votekicked. You had a bad experience, but the system is great. Easy PC building guide
Kushmir Nadian Valor Coalition 412	Posted - 2016.03.07 16:10:00 - [13] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: In a lobby based game. Vote to kick is a must dispite abuses. Honstely you should just find a pub servers you like and just play on those. Regular playing on the same server let's you learn who regs are and you end up being part of the communty and it ends up way more fun along with no risk of being kicked heh This. Being butthurt about VTK because of one instance is silly....the disruptive player with music, the racist, the AFK guy are all reasons why its necessary. Get the hell over it, please. Replication Veteran.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 5	Posted - 2016.03.07 16:51:00 - [14] - Quote Depending on how many glitch/exploit are in game, vote to kick can be cheapest and best working anticheat system. Regressed to blueberry level =ƒÿ» #PortDaPort on Consoles
Maken Tosch Dust University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2016.03.07 19:34:00 - [15] - Quote Kushmir Nadian wrote: steadyhand amarr wrote: In a lobby based game. Vote to kick is a must dispite abuses. Honstely you should just find a pub servers you like and just play on those. Regular playing on the same server let's you learn who regs are and you end up being part of the communty and it ends up way more fun along with no risk of being kicked heh This. Being butthurt about VTK because of one instance is silly....the disruptive player with music, the racist, the AFK guy are all reasons why its necessary. Get the hell over it, please. I wouldn't necessarily call my post being butthurt. I fully understand the intent of having a vote-to-kick system in place for most online FPS games like Counter-Strike mainly because legitimate players need a way to punish cheaters or other players that are clearly being disrupting to everyone to the extent that they are hindering everyone else's ability to have fun in general. I too also believe that there should be a tool in place to punish such players. But how does the system deal with cheaters and otherwise-disruptive players who intentionally exploit the punishment system? Jadek Menaheim, as an example, runs a Trello trade page called Dust Bunny Day Traders where a list of suspected and confirmed scammers is posted. Players are given a chance to report scammers which puts a yellow flag on them. If the scammer has been caught red handed, they are red flagged. Counter claims are blue flagged. But if someone with ill intent tries to falsely accuse someone of scamming with the intent of slandering their name and reputation and have been caught doing so, those players who with ill intent are given a black flag and publicly listed as such. This is currently the goto page for cross checking players who are willing to trade in Dust 514. The Vote-to-Kick system does provide some chance for a legitimate player to avoid getting kicked out by a player with ill intent. The VTK system in CS:GO requires a majority vote and I think the player in question is given a chance to vote as well. If the player in question is a legitimate player and others around him/he know him/her well enough, then that player gets to stay via the vote. But what if that legitimate player who is just trying to learn the ropes for the first time and no one around him knows him gets into that situation like I did? There is almost no recourse for that kind of player especially if the player with ill intent knows how to manipulate everyone else. If the new game that CCP is developing is going to include some kind of punishment system, then my best bet is Dust's punishment system. In Dust, there is no friendly fire in pub matches but it's on in faction warfare and planetary conquest. You don't get kicked at all in a pub match. In faction warfare, you get kicked based on how much damage you inflict on your friendlies as well as how many times someone chose to punish you after you team killed them. In planetary conquest, there is no punishment system but the squad leader has the power to kick you out before the PC battle officially starts. Being kicked from PC doesn't usually happen anyways since those battles require only the most trusted players in the corp to join in an effort to minimize any chance of a AWOXer sneaking into their team. Faction Warfare's punishment system is reasonable to me. Sure, it can be abused as well almost like any other system like VTK, but it's a system that directly depends on the player's actions. It requires that the player in question is actively trying to hurt you. If a player with ill intent tries to trick a legitimate player in damaging him/her then all the legitimate player has to do is not shoot and try to get the player with ill intent to commit that mistake instead or at least distract or lead them long enough for the redberries to deal with him. In this situation, there is at least some recourse for the legitimate player. Let's also not forget that Tranquility has a behavior-tracking algorithm in place that will detect any suspicious patterns of behavior that is indicative of a cheater. Anything that manipulates the data flowing between the game client and the server can trigger the flagging system which is then forwarded to CCP Team Security for analysis. Yes, most of the time there are real humans in CCP checking out this particular set of data. Team Security often has their own keynote during Fanfest as well bragging about their efforts and how they did it. Of course, this mostly affects Eve Online. But since the new game will be on PC, it's likely to become far more connected to Tranquility than Dust is. Another problem with the vote-to-kick system is that in CS:GO the voting process can start even when the match is already underway. This to me is the worst time to do a vote because everyone is paying attention to something else like shooting and trying to stay alive as long as possible. It's rather annoying to have to vote in the middle of all the haste that we experience in a single match. It would have been better if the VTK was brought up at the end of round for example whenever someone wants to vote out someone. At least there players are less likely to rush a vote and more likely to think a little more before kicking out someone because this is a calm period between rounds in CS:GO. I would be ok with a VTK system as long as there is a way for a legitimate player to have recourse if they find themselves in a situation like this. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon and I don't expect it for CS. Maybe in the new game from CCP but even I doubt that. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
LOOKMOM NOHANDS 714	Posted - 2016.03.08 00:33:00 - [16] - Quote I feel like vote kick is probably way more benefit than it is harmful. I will agree tho that putting it at the lowest level of competition is probably not a good idea. In Dust for example it would be useless and probably very bad in pubs but absolutely amazing in FW where AFK farming, red line sniping, general awoxing, and even reporting stuff back to the enemy team through a channel is not only very possible but can really just make a match no fun in a hurry.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2016.03.08 01:21:00 - [17] - Quote LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: I feel like vote kick is probably way more benefit than it is harmful. I will agree tho that putting it at the lowest level of competition is probably not a good idea. In Dust for example it would be useless and probably very bad in pubs but absolutely amazing in FW where AFK farming, red line sniping, general awoxing, and even reporting stuff back to the enemy team through a channel is not only very possible but can really just make a match no fun in a hurry. Depending on how it's implemented of course. Honestly I prefer Dust's punishment system. By the way, apparently CCP Team Security recently banned an ISBoxer (a Russian player by the looks of it) while he was in the middle of a live stream. Take a look and enjoy. http://giantsecurecontainer.de/breaking-news-isboxer-getting-banned-live/ Like I said, real Humans are behind CCP's ban hammer. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Draxus Prime Nos Nothi 4	Posted - 2016.03.08 01:36:00 - [18] - Quote Ahkhomi Cypher wrote: Also The R8 nerf was completely justified because it was a pocket AWP when it was released and keeping it that way would've completely ruined the match economy of the game. There was a reason it was banned from Pro matches. Edit And at higher levels of play people will be more reasonable (kinda) and even tolerate some toxic players because voting that player means playing with a terrible BOT and losing. i mean you can take over the bot if u die "Spilling floor cleaner only makes the floor cleaner." - Draxus Prime Closed Beta Vet Scout
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Imperium Eden 4	Posted - 2016.03.08 02:41:00 - [19] - Quote We are a very fickle bunch of players, aren't we? How many posts have been written about those "god damn AFK Farmers ruining my matches" and if people could vote to kick them it would be SO much better? Now the realization that it can be abused and suddenly it is "yeah, totally; no vote to kick option." Not stating that one is better than the other, as they are both edge case scenarios, but it is funny to see that switch. But now I will get into my own opinion: It is the necessary evil of having a necessary system. To use a political example, it is like how voter ID laws tend to do more harm than good in restricting people's vote in an attempt stop nearly non-existent voter impersonation. Yes, it does suck to have some jackass state "that guy is totally cheating!" in order to get you kicked from the server but how about not being able to do diddly against that jackass who is actually cheating? People here can say "well, not at the lower level of competition" but honestly that is something I cannot agree with. IF Not-Legion is going to be lobby based, like DUST is, then I feel it needs to be implemented at all levels in at least some fashion. If it isn't at the lower levels, it basically doesn't exist for most people that would play the game. "I can only play FW because public matches are littered with people AFK farming." Add in the fact that computers have the capability of running multiple instances of the game (multi-boxing) and you can literally have 5 teammates sitting in base AFK farming and have it only amount to a single guy. That isn't even going with some of the more obnoxious things possible with full blown hacks. So, as obnoxious as it is to be kicked for something that should not be kick worthy, the risk of abuse is less significant than not being able to kick people when needed. Also, the notion of someone running a script to constantly change their name is not going to happen in Not-Legion so what happened to you will not be possible. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
LOOKMOM NOHANDS 715	Posted - 2016.03.08 03:10:00 - [20] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: I feel like vote kick is probably way more benefit than it is harmful. I will agree tho that putting it at the lowest level of competition is probably not a good idea. In Dust for example it would be useless and probably very bad in pubs but absolutely amazing in FW where AFK farming, red line sniping, general awoxing, and even reporting stuff back to the enemy team through a channel is not only very possible but can really just make a match no fun in a hurry. Depending on how it's implemented of course. Honestly I prefer Dust's punishment system. By the way, apparently CCP Team Security recently banned an ISBoxer (a Russian player by the looks of it) while he was in the middle of a live stream. Take a look and enjoy. http://giantsecurecontainer.de/breaking-news-isboxer-getting-banned-live/ Like I said, real Humans are behind CCP's ban hammer. I'm not sure what you call a punishment system but I never saw one of any value. Doing a little too much damage? Team killing enough people that all take the time to stop and hit the punish button? That does nothing for the people that are outright screwing game play by sitting in the MCC / red line. That does nothing for the people running around popping equipment and feeding locations to the enemy. Sure that is part of the New Eden experience but I have never know a case that you had absolutely zero recourse against someone that you know is causing you to lose and ruin your game play. In Eve you are free to knock a person out of the squad and ship them right back to their medical clone in they are causing trouble or just riding coat tails. As for the banning of someone using ISBoxer I would hardly say that proves human intervention. ISBoxer was around for years so them being able to make a script to recognize it, specially when all of the accounts are logged in from the same IP, should be child's play. If it was humans attempting to keep up with people Eve would be the wild west. How many humans do you think it would take to monitor the activities of 20 - 30 thousand accounts all acting independently?

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2016.03.08 03:18:00 - [21] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: We are a very fickle bunch of players, aren't we? How many posts have been written about those "god damn AFK Farmers ruining my matches" and if people could vote to kick them it would be SO much better? Now the realization that it can be abused and suddenly it is "yeah, totally; no vote to kick option." Not stating that one is better than the other, as they are both edge case scenarios, but it is funny to see that switch. But now I will get into my own opinion: It is the necessary evil of having a necessary system. To use a political example, it is like how voter ID laws tend to do more harm than good in restricting people's vote in an attempt stop nearly non-existent voter impersonation. Yes, it does suck to have some jackass state "that guy is totally cheating!" in order to get you kicked from the server but how about not being able to do diddly against that jackass who is actually cheating? People here can say "well, not at the lower level of competition" but honestly that is something I cannot agree with. IF Not-Legion is going to be lobby based, like DUST is, then I feel it needs to be implemented at all levels in at least some fashion. If it isn't at the lower levels, it basically doesn't exist for most people that would play the game. "I can only play FW because public matches are littered with people AFK farming." Add in the fact that computers have the capability of running multiple instances of the game (multi-boxing) and you can literally have 5 teammates sitting in base AFK farming and have it only amount to a single guy. That isn't even going with some of the more obnoxious things possible with full blown hacks. So, as obnoxious as it is to be kicked for something that should not be kick worthy, the risk of abuse is less significant than not being able to kick people when needed. Also, the notion of someone running a script to constantly change their name is not going to happen in Not-Legion so what happened to you will not be possible. You have a valid point. Though it is very difficult to determine how often these edge cases (like mines for example) occur in CS:GO, it does warrant further discussion on what can be considered a proper punishment system for a lobby-style match. But keep in mind that NotLegion is likely, and hopefully, going to include some form of open-world gameplay. If that becomes the case, then a vote-to-kick system is not suitable for that situation. We would need a completely different kind of punishment system especially if NotLegion is going to emulate the different security systems we see in Eve Online but on planets. Let's say for the sake of this argument that somehow Vote-to-Kick becomes a better option than Dust's current punishment system. How would you set it up to at least mitigate abuse without it being too much of a hindrance to legitimate players trying to punish cheaters and other disruptive players in a lobby-based match? What about open-world? Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2016.03.08 03:23:00 - [22] - Quote LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: As for the banning of someone using ISBoxer I would hardly say that proves human intervention. ISBoxer was around for years so them being able to make a script to recognize it, specially when all of the accounts are logged in from the same IP, should be child's play. If it was humans attempting to keep up with people Eve would be the wild west. How many humans do you think it would take to monitor the activities of 20 - 30 thousand accounts all acting independently? Not much apparently. Like I said, they use a behavior tracking method build into the server along with the Eve client literally scanning itself to see if any data has been manipulated. Red flags are then sent to CCP's Team Security to analyze before passing judgment. From the looks of the Fanfest Keynotes that they often have, they make it look easy. That and an occasional Eve player reporting a Russian player who is clearly ISBoxing on a live stream helps as well. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
LOOKMOM NOHANDS 715	Posted - 2016.03.08 03:32:00 - [23] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: As for the banning of someone using ISBoxer I would hardly say that proves human intervention. ISBoxer was around for years so them being able to make a script to recognize it, specially when all of the accounts are logged in from the same IP, should be child's play. If it was humans attempting to keep up with people Eve would be the wild west. How many humans do you think it would take to monitor the activities of 20 - 30 thousand accounts all acting independently? Not much apparently. Like I said, they use a behavior tracking method build into the server along with the Eve client literally scanning itself to see if any data has been manipulated. Red flags are then sent to CCP's Team Security to analyze before passing judgment. From the looks of the Fanfest Keynotes that they often have, they make it look easy. That and an occasional Eve player reporting a Russian player who is clearly ISBoxing on a live stream helps as well. Leaving it up to humans in the end would be the waste of a good script. Sure they have humans review people that have been reported by other players but if you have already been caught by an automated system that is worth half a crap then there is zero reason for a person to be involved. That is why you do not get banned from the ticket system so that you are free to dispute any actions whether initiated by a script or by a person.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2016.03.08 04:11:00 - [24] - Quote LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: As for the banning of someone using ISBoxer I would hardly say that proves human intervention. ISBoxer was around for years so them being able to make a script to recognize it, specially when all of the accounts are logged in from the same IP, should be child's play. If it was humans attempting to keep up with people Eve would be the wild west. How many humans do you think it would take to monitor the activities of 20 - 30 thousand accounts all acting independently? Not much apparently. Like I said, they use a behavior tracking method build into the server along with the Eve client literally scanning itself to see if any data has been manipulated. Red flags are then sent to CCP's Team Security to analyze before passing judgment. From the looks of the Fanfest Keynotes that they often have, they make it look easy. That and an occasional Eve player reporting a Russian player who is clearly ISBoxing on a live stream helps as well. Leaving it up to humans in the end would be the waste of a good script. Sure they have humans review people that have been reported by other players but if you have already been caught by an automated system that is worth half a crap then there is zero reason for a person to be involved. That is why you do not get banned from the ticket system so that you are free to dispute any actions whether initiated by a script or by a person. I think they leave it up to the scripts entirely for some cases such as when RMT players have been detected. RMT sellers get a permaban on the first offense by the system if I remember correctly. No human interaction involved. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
LOOKMOM NOHANDS 715	Posted - 2016.03.08 04:31:00 - [25] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I think they leave it up to the scripts entirely for some cases such as when RMT players have been detected. RMT sellers get a permaban on the first offense by the system if I remember correctly. No human interaction involved. RMT is a crazy area and actually one of the areas I feel like they do have to depend on a lot of human presence. I have seen poor newbies get perma banned because they accepted the wrong contract in local and got flagged for RMT. Thats just an entirely different area than illegal scripting and attempted client side mods. No matter what security is the one and only area that I actually have respect for CCP in.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2016.03.08 04:56:00 - [26] - Quote LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I think they leave it up to the scripts entirely for some cases such as when RMT players have been detected. RMT sellers get a permaban on the first offense by the system if I remember correctly. No human interaction involved. RMT is a crazy area and actually one of the areas I feel like they do have to depend on a lot of human presence. I have seen poor newbies get perma banned because they accepted the wrong contract in local and got flagged for RMT. Thats just an entirely different area than illegal scripting and attempted client side mods. No matter what security is the one and only area that I actually have respect for CCP in. Yeah they do pull off some weird black magic **** over there when it comes to combating RMT. I often wonder if they hired Gandalf to cast off the Orcs. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
LOOKMOM NOHANDS 716	Posted - 2016.03.08 05:42:00 - [27] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I think they leave it up to the scripts entirely for some cases such as when RMT players have been detected. RMT sellers get a permaban on the first offense by the system if I remember correctly. No human interaction involved. RMT is a crazy area and actually one of the areas I feel like they do have to depend on a lot of human presence. I have seen poor newbies get perma banned because they accepted the wrong contract in local and got flagged for RMT. Thats just an entirely different area than illegal scripting and attempted client side mods. No matter what security is the one and only area that I actually have respect for CCP in. Yeah they do pull off some weird black magic **** over there when it comes to combating RMT. I often wonder if they hired Gandalf to cast off the Orcs. I think first and foremost they have a small budget for actually buying ISK from the RMT websites. I don't see any better first line of defense than having paid ISK sent to their own accounts so that they can ban people. Going into the insane hiding of transfers in different ways just blows my mind. People do it through fake attacks with expensive cargo and staged ganks and everything just to try to keep that cash flow going which to me seems like far more work than it was worth when you can just grab a plex and you have about 1.2 billion isk guaranteed.
Operative 1174 Uuali True Companion Planetary Requisitions 1	Posted - 2016.03.08 07:15:00 - [28] - Quote Kushmir Nadian wrote: steadyhand amarr wrote: In a lobby based game. Vote to kick is a must dispite abuses. Honstely you should just find a pub servers you like and just play on those. Regular playing on the same server let's you learn who regs are and you end up being part of the communty and it ends up way more fun along with no risk of being kicked heh This. Being butthurt about VTK because of one instance is silly....the disruptive player with music, the racist, the AFK guy are all reasons why its necessary. Get the hell over it, please. Turn voice off? CCP logic GÇô We fix what doesn't need breaking.
Operative 1174 Uuali True Companion Planetary Requisitions 1	Posted - 2016.03.08 07:17:00 - [29] - Quote LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I think they leave it up to the scripts entirely for some cases such as when RMT players have been detected. RMT sellers get a permaban on the first offense by the system if I remember correctly. No human interaction involved. RMT is a crazy area and actually one of the areas I feel like they do have to depend on a lot of human presence. I have seen poor newbies get perma banned because they accepted the wrong contract in local and got flagged for RMT. Thats just an entirely different area than illegal scripting and attempted client side mods. No matter what security is the one and only area that I actually have respect for CCP in. Yeah they do pull off some weird black magic **** over there when it comes to combating RMT. I often wonder if they hired Gandalf to cast off the Orcs. I think first and foremost they have a small budget for actually buying ISK from the RMT websites. I don't see any better first line of defense than having paid ISK sent to their own accounts so that they can ban people. Going into the insane hiding of transfers in different ways just blows my mind. People do it through fake attacks with expensive cargo and staged ganks and everything just to try to keep that cash flow going which to me seems like far more work than it was worth when you can just grab a plex and you have about 1.2 billion isk guaranteed. You try make money in former Soviet Union! Poor Russians need game too. In Russia, RMT buys you. CCP logic GÇô We fix what doesn't need breaking.
XxBlazikenxX Kylo's Fist 4	Posted - 2016.03.09 01:07:00 - [30] - Quote I perfectly agree with what you say Maken. I believe that instead of a vote to kick system we just keep the current system we have now in FW. CEO of Kylo's Fist // Pub Chat: The First Order Join us in our quest for all of Molden Heath! #freebenandjerrys

Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. 4	Posted - 2016.03.09 13:17:00 - [31] - Quote Boo hoo. MGO had it years ago, so did MAG and even if it did get abused by both sides it was still useful to have. CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2016.03.10 01:07:00 - [32] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Boo hoo. MGO had it years ago, so did MAG and even if it did get abused by both sides it was still useful to have. If you read the whole thread you'll see that I'm starting to get the point. Now back to the question I brought up. Assuming for the sake of this argument that somehow Vote-to-Kick, instead of Dust's current punishment system in FW, is the better option, how do you propose implementing this feature without it being overly abused by players with ill-intent while not being a hindrance to the legitimate players trying to combat the ill-intent using the VTK system? Should there be an arbitrary limit to the number of times a player can cast a vote to kick per match or per day or within a certain number of hours? Should vote to kick be limited to being cast between rounds assuming NotLegion adopts the CS:GO round-based match system? You know, the time between rounds when players are not too busy being caught up in the heat of a moment? Should there be any arbitrary limit at all in regards to VTK? Should there be punishment on any player who abuses the VTK system? Assuming NotLegion somehow offers lobby-style match mode, open-world mode, and PvE mode, what punishment system would you propose for each mode and how would you implement it? Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
KILL3R H3LLH0UND Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 320	Posted - 2016.03.10 08:28:00 - [33] - Quote Since you are a newbie to CSGO, you probably dont have a ton of insight on how to voting system works. (I used to be a semi pro player btw). Players ARE temp banned for kicking too much. Lemme explain. Player A is repeatedly kicking people off his team. After 'x' amount of kicks, he gets temp banned. (Let's say x = 10, that sounds about right). The system automatically bans him for 'y' amount of time. The system will temp ban you for many reason, but typically its either because A) You kicked too many players recently or B) You did too much friendly fire to your teammates (Just like we have in FW). C) You 'abandoned' the game (AKA you are getting your ass kicked and you LEAVE the match because you refused to harden the f**k up and git gud) D) You committed suicide too many times (Who wants to have a guy throwing going 0/45??) The rules are as follows: every cooldown increases the offense level by one level and after cooldown expires and a clean week goes by the offense level goes down by one level. First level offenders receive a 30 min cooldown, second level = 2 hr, third level = 24 hr, fourth and higher levels = 7 days. The confusion might arise for extreme abusers of the system whose offense level went beyond level 4 now. Here's an example: A player reaches offense level 4 and gets their first 7 day cooldown on Jan 1, it expires on Jan 8 -- this means player can play, but their offense level stays at 4 for the duration of one more week. If player commits a competitive offense on Jan 8 then offense level is increased to level 5 and player is penalized with another 7 day cooldown. That cooldown expires on Jan 15 -- again, this means that player can play, but their offense level stays at level 5 for the duration of one more week. So, after the clean week goes by on Jan 22 the offense level goes down by one level to level 4. Committing a competitive offense on Jan 22 will increase it again to level 5 and assign a 7 day cooldown according to the rules listed above. Essentially if you got your second or third 7 day cooldown in a row this means you need to have two or three clean weeks after it expires before it goes down to offense level 3 which is penalized with a 2 hr cooldown. This is probably confusing as all hell to you, but I can explain further if you wish (Just let me know). This system could easily be implemented into NotLegion with some minor changes (such as the ability for your team to forgive you vs insta punish like CSGO has). Ex-Master Scout Trainer, been falling in love with my Minja again. I <3 my Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ
KILL3R H3LLH0UND Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 320	Posted - 2016.03.10 08:29:00 - [34] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: . Read my above post Ex-Master Scout Trainer, been falling in love with my Minja again. I <3 my Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2016.03.10 22:57:00 - [35] - Quote KILL3R H3LLH0UND wrote: Since you are a newbie to CSGO, you probably dont have a ton of insight on how to voting system works. (I used to be a semi pro player btw). Players ARE temp banned for kicking too much. Lemme explain. Player A is repeatedly kicking people off his team. After 'x' amount of kicks, he gets temp banned. (Let's say x = 10, that sounds about right). The system automatically bans him for 'y' amount of time. The system will temp ban you for many reason, but typically its either because A) You kicked too many players recently or B) You did too much friendly fire to your teammates (Just like we have in FW). C) You 'abandoned' the game (AKA you are getting your ass kicked and you LEAVE the match because you refused to harden the f**k up and git gud) D) You committed suicide too many times (Who wants to have a guy throwing going 0/45??) The rules are as follows: every cooldown increases the offense level by one level and after cooldown expires and a clean week goes by the offense level goes down by one level. First level offenders receive a 30 min cooldown, second level = 2 hr, third level = 24 hr, fourth and higher levels = 7 days. The confusion might arise for extreme abusers of the system whose offense level went beyond level 4 now. Here's an example: A player reaches offense level 4 and gets their first 7 day cooldown on Jan 1, it expires on Jan 8 -- this means player can play, but their offense level stays at 4 for the duration of one more week. If player commits a competitive offense on Jan 8 then offense level is increased to level 5 and player is penalized with another 7 day cooldown. That cooldown expires on Jan 15 -- again, this means that player can play, but their offense level stays at level 5 for the duration of one more week. So, after the clean week goes by on Jan 22 the offense level goes down by one level to level 4. Committing a competitive offense on Jan 22 will increase it again to level 5 and assign a 7 day cooldown according to the rules listed above. Essentially if you got your second or third 7 day cooldown in a row this means you need to have two or three clean weeks after it expires before it goes down to offense level 3 which is penalized with a 2 hr cooldown. This is probably confusing as all hell to you, but I can explain further if you wish (Just let me know). This system could easily be implemented into NotLegion with some minor changes (such as the ability for your team to forgive you vs insta punish like CSGO has). THANK YOU SO MUCH! I'm updating my OP to cover this. I appreciate it bro. I didn't realize that CS:GO had a punishment system in place for those who abuse VTK. Of course, the game didn't make it apparent for me which now explains my original post. As for "minor changes" what are the changes that your propose for implementation on NotLegion? Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
KILL3R H3LLH0UND Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 323	Posted - 2016.03.12 00:09:00 - [36] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: As for "minor changes" what are the changes that you propose for implementation on NotLegion? I personally do not know enough about NotLegion yet to make any comment on this. And I'm gonna be sp0ending the next week or so having fun (spring break) and not researching stuff. Feel free to add me on steam (we can talk on there and perhaps play sometime) My Steam Profile (click there and add me if you wish) Ex-Master Scout Trainer, been falling in love with my Minja again. I <3 my Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2016.03.12 01:17:00 - [37] - Quote KILL3R H3LLH0UND wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: As for "minor changes" what are the changes that you propose for implementation on NotLegion? I personally do not know enough about NotLegion yet to make any comment on this. And I'm gonna be sp0ending the next week or so having fun (spring break) and not researching stuff. Feel free to add me on steam (we can talk on there and perhaps play sometime) My Steam Profile (click there and add me if you wish) Friend invite sent. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Ahkhomi Cypher Opus Arcana 1	Posted - 2016.03.12 06:16:00 - [38] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Boo hoo. MGO had it years ago, so did MAG and even if it did get abused by both sides it was still useful to have. If you read the whole thread you'll see that I'm starting to get the point. Now back to the question I brought up. Assuming for the sake of this argument that somehow Vote-to-Kick, instead of Dust's current punishment system in FW, is the better option, how do you propose implementing this feature without it being overly abused by players with ill-intent while not being a hindrance to the legitimate players trying to combat the ill-intent using the VTK system? Should there be an arbitrary limit to the number of times a player can cast a vote to kick per match or per day or within a certain number of hours? Should vote to kick be limited to being cast between rounds assuming NotLegion adopts the CS:GO round-based match system? You know, the time between rounds when players are not too busy being caught up in the heat of a moment? Should there be any arbitrary limit at all in regards to VTK? Should there be punishment on any player who abuses the VTK system? Assuming NotLegion somehow offers lobby-style match mode, open-world mode, and PvE mode, what punishment system would you propose for each mode and how would you implement it? Winning the match has to matter (in a videogame sense) for the Vote-to-kick system to truly work. In Rainbow Six Seige / CS:GO you have to think about if the VTK is worth losing a player. If the player is team killing or purposely doing things that hurt the team's performance then a VTK may be legit. Yes, there are trolly instances (:Trollface: D4GG3R) but overall it's great when people are actually trying to win Tyrant King, Opus Arcana
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2016.03.12 15:14:00 - [39] - Quote Ahkhomi Cypher wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Boo hoo. MGO had it years ago, so did MAG and even if it did get abused by both sides it was still useful to have. If you read the whole thread you'll see that I'm starting to get the point. Now back to the question I brought up. Assuming for the sake of this argument that somehow Vote-to-Kick, instead of Dust's current punishment system in FW, is the better option, how do you propose implementing this feature without it being overly abused by players with ill-intent while not being a hindrance to the legitimate players trying to combat the ill-intent using the VTK system? Should there be an arbitrary limit to the number of times a player can cast a vote to kick per match or per day or within a certain number of hours? Should vote to kick be limited to being cast between rounds assuming NotLegion adopts the CS:GO round-based match system? You know, the time between rounds when players are not too busy being caught up in the heat of a moment? Should there be any arbitrary limit at all in regards to VTK? Should there be punishment on any player who abuses the VTK system? Assuming NotLegion somehow offers lobby-style match mode, open-world mode, and PvE mode, what punishment system would you propose for each mode and how would you implement it? Winning the match has to matter (in a videogame sense) for the Vote-to-kick system to truly work. In Rainbow Six Seige / CS:GO you have to think about if the VTK is worth losing a player. If the player is team killing or purposely doing things that hurt the team's performance then a VTK may be legit. Yes, there are trolly instances (:Trollface: D4GG3R) but overall it's great when people are actually trying to win What about open-world environments or environments that are PvEvP like how Eve Online's mission-running system works? Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Ahkhomi Cypher Opus Arcana 1	Posted - 2016.03.12 15:47:00 - [40] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Ahkhomi Cypher wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Boo hoo. MGO had it years ago, so did MAG and even if it did get abused by both sides it was still useful to have. If you read the whole thread you'll see that I'm starting to get the point. Now back to the question I brought up. Assuming for the sake of this argument that somehow Vote-to-Kick, instead of Dust's current punishment system in FW, is the better option, how do you propose implementing this feature without it being overly abused by players with ill-intent while not being a hindrance to the legitimate players trying to combat the ill-intent using the VTK system? Should there be an arbitrary limit to the number of times a player can cast a vote to kick per match or per day or within a certain number of hours? Should vote to kick be limited to being cast between rounds assuming NotLegion adopts the CS:GO round-based match system? You know, the time between rounds when players are not too busy being caught up in the heat of a moment? Should there be any arbitrary limit at all in regards to VTK? Should there be punishment on any player who abuses the VTK system? Assuming NotLegion somehow offers lobby-style match mode, open-world mode, and PvE mode, what punishment system would you propose for each mode and how would you implement it? Winning the match has to matter (in a videogame sense) for the Vote-to-kick system to truly work. In Rainbow Six Seige / CS:GO you have to think about if the VTK is worth losing a player. If the player is team killing or purposely doing things that hurt the team's performance then a VTK may be legit. Yes, there are trolly instances (:Trollface: D4GG3R) but overall it's great when people are actually trying to win What about open-world environments or environments that are PvEvP like how Eve Online's mission-running system works? So like the darkzone in the division basically. In that situation your just gonna have to kill that dude. Backstabbing and fuckery should be expected in those situations. Vote to kick only works if the people involved are supposed to be on the same team, cooperating and the sides were AI generated. This also leads us to a question we need answered if we are to really debate on including VTK. will the game be a lobby shooter or nah? If yes then VTK would be needed. (My opinion) If its an actual MMO then you shouldn't of brought that motherfucka along on the mission in thr first place. Now kill him. Tyrant King, Opus Arcana



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