Interesting. So what's the point of STD? I can see the point of ADV and PRO, but STD seems somewhat pointless other than as a first step out of MLT suits.

I no longer run STD suits, only APEX (Caldari State) or MLT for BPOs and ADV otherwise. I have State Assault and State Scout PRO suits but I haven't used them because losing them seems just too expensive and easy to do. :)

not really std racial variants get ur full proto skills especially logis they are definitively better than mlt

I only run an unedited APEX Samurai Commando in pubs. I just swap the Sniper for a MLT Rail rifle BPO and the nanohive for some R-9 links. Go positive 99.5% of the time K/D wise and 100% positive ISK wise.

Just spend your isks, they are here for that !

How much ISK do you have exactly? It would be a good idea to start a saving method like Park does. He only keeps 5.1 mil on Park and sends all the other isk to an alt. I have a Corp on one of my alts and use that as a Savings account... Then of course as an actual Corp... Also if you are in any channels, which ones? I would like to squad sometime...

Ah, I've wondered about logis. I've heard this advice before. But running a suit with all that equipment when I'm just gonna die seems wasteful. I know that's negative thinking, and there's probably a different approach when running logis - standing back and not joining in the fight so much, probably. I haven't learnt that level of restraint yet... ;)

no one fights one v one now you get jumped by 3 dudes every time

One thing you can always do, is create multiple fittings using your apex suit. I usually keep one fitting from my LP Apex suit completely free, either by using BPO's I have or just leaving it unmodified, and then you can make different fittings with different levels of modules and weapons you add to the suit, so you can always switch between different suits depending on how much more you're wanting to 'spend' during any given match you're in.

sever logi bpo with a core repper tool can easily be built to an under 20k fit and u can make 500k per match on it

sever logi bpo
bpo mlt shotty
bpo dirty needle
compact nano
std link
core repper

a few basic shields a few kinkats and ur good

This makes perfect sense. Back then (about a month and beyond) it was common for me to roam around alone and get a good 40+ kills. Now every group I see, all huddled together. I also have a feeling I know why this is happening.

Yes, I've tried this. I usually put the Kaalakiota skin on the unedited BPO, for visual impact - I'm going to lose it anyway, so I might as well scare the bejebus out of them. :)

I like the idea of having various edited versions with different levels of weapons and modules. I'm finding it hard to use up all the PG/CPU without fitting ADV weapons, so maybe that can be another fit. That would make three:
1. Unedited BPO - say State Rasetsu with a State Rail Rifle and basic mods all part of the BPO,
2. Beefed up tank - State Rasetsu with better shields, damage mods, etc, but with the same weapons,
3. Fully edited - State Rasetsu in name only - everything improved including ADV weapons.

I've tried this myself, but I've noticed I tend to leave the BPOs just sit there. Again, the idea or not maxing out the PG/CPU bothers me. I think that's an EvE thing - we never fly ships that we haven't maxed out all the resources on. Of course I could just run MLT fits, they're easy to max out with just one or two MLT BPO modules. I've done that too, but I die too much to benefit in any way from them.

I have a State Samurai Commando (APEX) suit. But I've never run it unedited. Seems like a waste of all that spare PG/CPU to not fill it up with at least some ADV shield and damage mods. Isn't that the point of being able to edit them?

What about Hawk Scout and Rasetsu Assault? I run heavily edited versions of them, but what you seem to be saying is that pubs aren't worth spending ISK on. Running the unedited versions is the sort of thing I imagine people who buy APEX suits with AUR do before they have any real skills. Good for learning on but not good for really advancing. The Hawk Scout, particularly, is just asking to be scanned and blown away in an instant without any edits.

Do tell! You have a theory? Anyone else know for sure what's behind this? Certainly, from a solo perspective, I would just love to be in a squad when I come up against one of these little groups. Is it survival tactics or something else?

Guns and suits are the most expensive items in the game. If you run an ADV suit, and ADV guns even if everything else on your suit is proto you should be able to easily make ISK.

Thanks for that. Guess my next State APEX BPO will be the Kampo.... :) I've read, though that the Caldari logis aren't that good....

1. people have seen how effective squads are and are actually squading

2. in order to reduce stomps, people have realized its best to stay together

3. survival, idk who else has noticed, but ive seen very common now a heavy with logi and assault just roaming. you try to attack but they pin you down. its very effective.

thats all i got.... except how about matchmaking? ive also noticed a couple matches recently when almost the whole team goes 800wp+

could scotty start putting squads vs squads now? am i one of the poor mercs used as fillers for matches???

idk. i just know that something isnt right.

they are great for grenade md spam
got one to proto just for that

but for mass money making u want minmatar

my main assault is 214k

gko
duvole ar
creodron ip
thukker grenade
ishukone guaged nanohive
1 complex light damge
1 complex sidearm damage\
1 adv pg upgrade
1 pro kincat
2 pro ferroscale
2 pro reps

everyone who proto spams relentlessly drops in skill...when you kick the **** out of scrubs who dont stand a chance 80% of the time and give yourself no real challenge what do you expect go run lower gear and wipe the rust off lightening

The apexes are more powerful if you max out your cores and the suit itself along with its weapons... Also shield are pretty much useless in dust 514... They get destroyed within 2 seconds...

Ah, I've wondered about logis. I've heard this advice before. But running a suit with all that equipment when I'm just gonna die seems wasteful. I know that's negative thinking, and there's probably a different approach when running logis - standing back and not joining in the fight so much, probably. I haven't learnt that level of restraint yet... ;)

This is actually a fairly accurate statement. Generally I run nothing but standard sh*tfits, with the occasional ADV splurge.

When I actually PRO/officer out, I usually enjoy an UNHOLY level of advantage over most players including thr protos.

My rare-ass berserker moments where I butcher squads usually came from swapping to Proto after having been fighting running nothing but STD crap. It's rather telling about whether you're actually a scrub or if you're just a masochist who loves hardmode when you swap to the weapons grade being used by all of your enemies and you mop the floor with their asses when before you were just doing "ok."

Update.

I've been running BPOs in pubs. I'm pretty sure I don't like it. To my mind, as stated elsewhere the suit and the weapons are the most expensive parts of a fit, so using a BPO without editing out the weapons for something else gives you both. Just upgrading the rest of the modules and equipment would then be the cheap option to get to a decent fit.

Something else about BPOs - with my skill levels they seem paper thin. If I can catch someone off guard I can mostly kill them in a flash. I have good aim especially with ADS on a rail rifle. But if they catch me off guard, it seems my suit is hardly even there - It's just ridiculous how fast they cut me up - my rail rifle hasn't even had a chance to charge to fire the first shot before I'm dead.

I'm used to shield tanking (EvE Online Caldari ships use exactly the same concepts). I'm used to tanking so that my suit will take enough damage before I can react to a side attack, then recharge the shields fast enough to deal with the DPS I'll take until I can kill them. The APEX suits, despite being deemed "Pro", are actually quite basic in their BPO fittings. I imagine this is so that people who buy them with AUR to get an edge actually need to be able to use them, so the PG/CPU of the fittings are limited. For me, there is about 30% the CPU and 40% of the PG of the suits unused. Not fitting at least the modules to use up this excess seems wasteful. Not trying to fit the suits to the best advantage really goes against the grain, especially when I die so fast I can't make any headway.

I think running BPOs is fundamentally good advice, under reasonable circumstances. But that doesn't take into account the ridiculously overwhelming number of proto stompers on the other side in almost every pubs match. Given that they are almost all proto stompers, I would have absolutely no chance of living through an encounter with virtually any of them in a BPO suit. It's not much better in a fully tanked suit, but at least I can survive long enough to maybe get a shot in.

So, it boils down to a choice between:
1. Run BPOs (APEX or MLT), die continuously and make virtually no WP and maybe no SP, but also don't lose ISK,
or
2. Run modified APEX or MLT suits, die less, maybe make a bit more WP and SP, for a small cost.

At the end of the day, the first option costs nothing but goes nowhere. The second option, however, has at least the chance of quality of play, costs a little, but allows me to make some WP, SP and of course more ISK. As a result, I'm having a tough time convincing myself running BPOs in pubs is the way to go. Maybe if I were a seasoned vet, running in squads, it would be an option. But a four-month experienced player running solo in a proto-stacked match? I think not.

I'm sure as I get better, my experience of running BPOs in proto stomped pubs will improve, but will it improve fast enough that I don't just leave the game in the meantime? And then there's the question about whether the game will even be here by then...

Well, APEX suits have a good basic weapon as part of the BPO, so I could just run with that. I've used ADV variants as well, and they do seem to make a difference, but now I think it's just a matter of the increased DPS giving me a little more of an edge.