DUST Search - Reached some sort of point of negative ISK returns

Mortedeamor wrote:

Lightning35 Delta514 wrote:

Alena Asakura wrote:

Lightning35 Delta514 wrote:

How much is your fully pro fit?

I've gone isk negative in the last 2 weeks.

Been running full pro (214k) and I've had the misfortune to lose my predator instinct. Been dying stupid deaths lately. Decided to run only basic. Hopefully, I'll improve.

Dying stupid deaths. Yeah, that sounds like me most of the time. :) I know how to aim, I can hit the target most of the time but they seem to be able to cut me up before I can cut them up. What's been happening more often lately is that one or other of us will die and the other will have armour hanging by a thread. I know just a little more DPS would fix that, but the expense of a Kaala or Ishukone is prohibitive if I keep dying like I do.

My fully pro fits are Caldari State fitted, run to around 40K plus about 600LP with State Peacekeepers. I don't really know what that translates to in ISK, but I think it's a lot. I only make about 2000LP on a winning match. Also, with most of my fitting skills down around lvl 3, I can't actually fit full pro fits. Only my weapons are at lvl 5, and proficiency is only about lvl 2. I'm working on that... :)

Right now I'm just running APEX fits with minimal modification, but I might try the pro fits for a bit on an experiment.

What I've noticed mostly lately is I can't find "lone" targets. All in starting to see know it's a heavy with rep and an assault near them. Which is bad for m cuz all my suits are Gallente (cqc) and it's Obviously impossible to win a 3-1.

TLDR- I'm being ganged up on.

no one fights one v one now you get jumped by 3 dudes every time

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Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 110	Posted - 2015.11.18 11:57:00 - [1] - Quote I just noticed today that I'm no longer making headway ISK-wise. I put it down to the expense of my fits, and realised I had fallen for the trap of loading up my suits with modules to max out PG and CPU, but weapons are more expensive, and I've wondered whether I'm heading in the right direction. I have Caldari state (APEX) suits for Assault, Scout and Commando, all of which come with the State Rail Rifle. I know that the adv and proto versions are better, but they are also a hell of a lot more expensive compared with, well, nothing, the State Rail Rifle being part of the APEX blueprints. Instead of putting better guns on my suits, I've beefed up the tank, scan profile and scan precision. It's cheaper but I don't know that it's the right direction. Would I be better off to run weapons which are lower standard than the rest of the suit, higher than the rest of the suit, or about the same? I've used rifles like the State Kaalakiota Specialist Rail Rifle, and I was pretty impressed by it, but the rest of my suit isn't up to that standard, and I tend to die a lot if I use a rifle like that because I have to compromise on the PG and CPU for the rest of the suit. Should I use a Kaala or Ishukone rifle on my suits without the necessary tank to back it up? That would be a lot more expensive, but would my K/D improve enough to make it worthwhile, or would I just be wasting ISK? I know a lot depends on the person concerned, but is there any general rule I can follow? I love the Kaala and the Ishukone and I'd love for someone to say "minimal tank, maximal DPS" but I suspect that's not the most efficient and productive way to do it... I also have access to State Scout ck.0 and State Assault ck.0 but I've been avoiding them as well because I only have about lvl 3 skills to fit them with. Is the best approach to just try them and see, or wait until I have lvl 5 skills before using them? (Sort of like not going near the pool until I know how to swim?... :) )
Banjo Robertson Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 752	Posted - 2015.11.18 12:05:00 - [2] - Quote the only difference is damage output, all the other stats are the same. If your warbarge is 4-5% damage boost, and if you have atleast proficiency 3-4 on rail rifles, then your standard rail rifle is doing more damage than a non-warbarge non-proficiency advanced rail rifle would do. Of course if you switch to an advanced you will be doing just that much more damage, and then again for prototype as well. If you want to save money, stick with the standard free rail rifle, I think its still good enough to use, and if you wanted to kit out anything else on the suit, stick with upgrading the modules.
Lightning35 Delta514 The Warlords Legion 2	Posted - 2015.11.18 12:12:00 - [3] - Quote How much is your fully pro fit? I've gone isk negative in the last 2 weeks. Been running full pro (214k) and I've had the misfortune to lose my predator instinct. Been dying stupid deaths lately. Decided to run only basic. Hopefully, I'll improve. CEO of T-W-L YouTube- Lightning35 Delta514 Thukker God
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 110	Posted - 2015.11.18 12:25:00 - [4] - Quote Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: How much is your fully pro fit? I've gone isk negative in the last 2 weeks. Been running full pro (214k) and I've had the misfortune to lose my predator instinct. Been dying stupid deaths lately. Decided to run only basic. Hopefully, I'll improve. Dying stupid deaths. Yeah, that sounds like me most of the time. :) I know how to aim, I can hit the target most of the time but they seem to be able to cut me up before I can cut them up. What's been happening more often lately is that one or other of us will die and the other will have armour hanging by a thread. I know just a little more DPS would fix that, but the expense of a Kaala or Ishukone is prohibitive if I keep dying like I do. My fully pro fits are Caldari State fitted, run to around 40K plus about 600LP with State Peacekeepers. I don't really know what that translates to in ISK, but I think it's a lot. I only make about 2000LP on a winning match. Also, with most of my fitting skills down around lvl 3, I can't actually fit full pro fits. Only my weapons are at lvl 5, and proficiency is only about lvl 2. I'm working on that... :) Right now I'm just running APEX fits with minimal modification, but I might try the pro fits for a bit on an experiment.
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 110	Posted - 2015.11.18 12:34:00 - [5] - Quote Banjo Robertson wrote: the only difference is damage output, all the other stats are the same. If your warbarge is 4-5% damage boost, and if you have atleast proficiency 3-4 on rail rifles, then your standard rail rifle is doing more damage than a non-warbarge non-proficiency advanced rail rifle would do. Of course if you switch to an advanced you will be doing just that much more damage, and then again for prototype as well. If you want to save money, stick with the standard free rail rifle, I think its still good enough to use, and if you wanted to kit out anything else on the suit, stick with upgrading the modules. I don't think I'm quite at those levels yet. My warbarge is only at about 4% I think. I know I only have lvl 2 proficiency. But I can fix both of those quickly enough. Good to know that the standard BPO rifles are OK for what I need. Thanks for the info. The other side of this question of course, is how fast I die compared with how fast they do - "time to die" as they call it in EvE. So far I've been tending to die faster than them but I'm getting better...
Radiant Pancake3 2	Posted - 2015.11.18 12:57:00 - [6] - Quote You're that beta vet that didn't actually play during beta, are you not? If it helps I run my CalAss Apex with two complex damage mods with the basic rr... Or if I feel like not using basic I just have a copy with a proto Rr/ARR and use that... "Pancake is a corp hopping forum troll, that's his excuse." - bane sieg Min Loyalist
Mortedeamor The Black Masquerade 2	Posted - 2015.11.18 13:00:00 - [7] - Quote i believe a balanced approach is best i never run proto weapons on anything except a proto suit..doing so throws your suit into what i like to call glass cannon mode pc master race PORT IT CCP
Mortedeamor The Black Masquerade 2	Posted - 2015.11.18 13:02:00 - [8] - Quote Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: How much is your fully pro fit? I've gone isk negative in the last 2 weeks. Been running full pro (214k) and I've had the misfortune to lose my predator instinct. Been dying stupid deaths lately. Decided to run only basic. Hopefully, I'll improve. everyone who proto spams relentlessly drops in skill...when you kick the **** out of scrubs who dont stand a chance 80% of the time and give yourself no real challenge what do you expect go run lower gear and wipe the rust off lightening pc master race PORT IT CCP
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 110	Posted - 2015.11.18 13:10:00 - [9] - Quote Radiant Pancake3 wrote: You're that beta vet that didn't actually play during beta, are you not? If it helps I run my CalAss Apex with two complex damage mods with the basic rr... Or if I feel like not using basic I just have a copy with a proto Rr/ARR and use that... Yes, that's me! :) Thanks for the advice, I can certainly run that fit. I would have to use State Complex Light Damage Mods on the suit, but that will certainly work. That will at least get me used to actually winning fights, before transitioning to the more powerful weapons. I do suspect that the problem is not enough DPS. I hit plenty of targets and do plenty of damage, just not enough to kill them before they kill me. :)
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 110	Posted - 2015.11.18 13:14:00 - [10] - Quote Radiant Pancake3 wrote: You're that beta vet that didn't actually play during beta, are you not? If it helps I run my CalAss Apex with two complex damage mods with the basic rr... Or if I feel like not using basic I just have a copy with a proto Rr/ARR and use that... And yes, not playing during the Beta is starting to really feel like the worst decision I could have made. Think how advanced I'd be now if I'd kept going! The reasons I stopped were varied, but primarily to do with the fact that I couldn't seem to figure out how to get into matches. I guess the system is simply that different from EvE and I didn't have the time to figure it out, or at least I didn't think I did. Now, of course, it seems so simple, I'm kicking myself for not continuing to play... :(

Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 110	Posted - 2015.11.18 13:17:00 - [11] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: i believe a balanced approach is best i never run proto weapons on anything except a proto suit..doing so throws your suit into what i like to call glass cannon mode "Glass cannon", yeah that's how it feels for me too. I have to compromise on the suit tank to run proto weapons. The other team could kill me with a sneeze! I'm much happier to run with weapons that do the job, and a good solid tank on my suit.
Radiant Pancake3 2	Posted - 2015.11.18 13:29:00 - [12] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: Radiant Pancake3 wrote: You're that beta vet that didn't actually play during beta, are you not? If it helps I run my CalAss Apex with two complex damage mods with the basic rr... Or if I feel like not using basic I just have a copy with a proto Rr/ARR and use that... And yes, not playing during the Beta is starting to really feel like the worst decision I could have made. Think how advanced I'd be now if I'd kept going! The reasons I stopped were varied, but primarily to do with the fact that I couldn't seem to figure out how to get into matches. I guess the system is simply that different from EvE and I didn't have the time to figure it out, or at least I didn't think I did. Now, of course, it seems so simple, I'm kicking myself for not continuing to play... :( Figured as much... We should squad up sometime... For the meantime get your shield/armor skills to five. Helps alot... "Pancake is a corp hopping forum troll, that's his excuse." - bane sieg Min Loyalist
Lightning35 Delta514 The Warlords Legion 2	Posted - 2015.11.18 13:34:00 - [13] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: How much is your fully pro fit? I've gone isk negative in the last 2 weeks. Been running full pro (214k) and I've had the misfortune to lose my predator instinct. Been dying stupid deaths lately. Decided to run only basic. Hopefully, I'll improve. Dying stupid deaths. Yeah, that sounds like me most of the time. :) I know how to aim, I can hit the target most of the time but they seem to be able to cut me up before I can cut them up. What's been happening more often lately is that one or other of us will die and the other will have armour hanging by a thread. I know just a little more DPS would fix that, but the expense of a Kaala or Ishukone is prohibitive if I keep dying like I do. My fully pro fits are Caldari State fitted, run to around 40K plus about 600LP with State Peacekeepers. I don't really know what that translates to in ISK, but I think it's a lot. I only make about 2000LP on a winning match. Also, with most of my fitting skills down around lvl 3, I can't actually fit full pro fits. Only my weapons are at lvl 5, and proficiency is only about lvl 2. I'm working on that... :) Right now I'm just running APEX fits with minimal modification, but I might try the pro fits for a bit on an experiment. What I've noticed mostly lately is I can't find "lone" targets. All in starting to see know it's a heavy with rep and an assault near them. Which is bad for m cuz all my suits are Gallente (cqc) and it's Obviously impossible to win a 3-1. TLDR- I'm being ganged up on. CEO of T-W-L YouTube- Lightning35 Delta514 Thukker God
Lightning35 Delta514 The Warlords Legion 2	Posted - 2015.11.18 13:38:00 - [14] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: How much is your fully pro fit? I've gone isk negative in the last 2 weeks. Been running full pro (214k) and I've had the misfortune to lose my predator instinct. Been dying stupid deaths lately. Decided to run only basic. Hopefully, I'll improve. everyone who proto spams relentlessly drops in skill...when you kick the **** out of scrubs who dont stand a chance 80% of the time and give yourself no real challenge what do you expect go run lower gear and wipe the rust off lightening Yeah.... I've seen that. The respec spoiled me. So do deleted all my pro/off fits! No more pro stomping from me for a while. This is the second time I do this. CEO of T-W-L YouTube- Lightning35 Delta514 Thukker God
maybe deadcatz Serris Inc 1	Posted - 2015.11.18 13:38:00 - [15] - Quote One does not run proto weapons with apex suits in the first place. That's being scrubby,secondly get a combo of hp tank and make do with a advanced weapon. I just used milita weapon bpos to shave a lot of isk off of my total price. Ha!You can't kill me! I'm already dead!
Cquj The Merc Eternal Beings RUST415 58	Posted - 2015.11.18 15:33:00 - [16] - Quote If you have the krin's damage mod, you could always replace the shield energizer for more dps. Doesnt lower your direct tank in a fight, only slows your complete shield recovery by a few seconds.
LOL KILLZ LulKlz 509	Posted - 2015.11.18 15:37:00 - [17] - Quote Have STD,ADV, and PRO of your favorite fits. STD not so much as you can run a MLT fit and get the same results s a standard. PRO fits don't ever see the light of day from me unless I'm really wanting you dead. Or I see a big name Corp Merc that thinks it will be safe to whip out his PRO fit in a pub match. \0/
Mortedeamor The Black Masquerade 2	Posted - 2015.11.18 16:07:00 - [18] - Quote Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: How much is your fully pro fit? I've gone isk negative in the last 2 weeks. Been running full pro (214k) and I've had the misfortune to lose my predator instinct. Been dying stupid deaths lately. Decided to run only basic. Hopefully, I'll improve. Dying stupid deaths. Yeah, that sounds like me most of the time. :) I know how to aim, I can hit the target most of the time but they seem to be able to cut me up before I can cut them up. What's been happening more often lately is that one or other of us will die and the other will have armour hanging by a thread. I know just a little more DPS would fix that, but the expense of a Kaala or Ishukone is prohibitive if I keep dying like I do. My fully pro fits are Caldari State fitted, run to around 40K plus about 600LP with State Peacekeepers. I don't really know what that translates to in ISK, but I think it's a lot. I only make about 2000LP on a winning match. Also, with most of my fitting skills down around lvl 3, I can't actually fit full pro fits. Only my weapons are at lvl 5, and proficiency is only about lvl 2. I'm working on that... :) Right now I'm just running APEX fits with minimal modification, but I might try the pro fits for a bit on an experiment. What I've noticed mostly lately is I can't find "lone" targets. All in starting to see know it's a heavy with rep and an assault near them. Which is bad for m cuz all my suits are Gallente (cqc) and it's Obviously impossible to win a 3-1. TLDR- I'm being ganged up on. no one fights one v one now you get jumped by 3 dudes every time pc master race PORT IT CCP
Mortedeamor The Black Masquerade 2	Posted - 2015.11.18 16:08:00 - [19] - Quote LOL KILLZ wrote: Have STD,ADV, and PRO of your favorite fits. STD not so much as you can run a MLT fit and get the same results s a standard. PRO fits don't ever see the light of day from me unless I'm really wanting you dead. Or I see a big name Corp Merc that thinks it will be safe to whip out his PRO fit in a pub match. not really std racial variants get ur full proto skills especially logis they are definitively better than mlt pc master race PORT IT CCP
DEATH THE KlD Imperfect - Bastards 869	Posted - 2015.11.18 16:09:00 - [20] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: i believe a balanced approach is best i never run proto weapons on anything except a proto suit..doing so throws your suit into what i like to call glass cannon mode Oo I remember those days..ahh broken damage mods, good times CEO of Imperfect Bastards and NF -Heimdallr69 Steam - Heimpai

Hal P DUST University Ivy League 135	Posted - 2015.11.18 17:17:00 - [21] - Quote I only run an unedited APEX Samurai Commando in pubs. I just swap the Sniper for a MLT Rail rifle BPO and the nanohive for some R-9 links. Go positive 99.5% of the time K/D wise and 100% positive ISK wise. Clones turn to Dust, but knowledge is eternal.
Sequal's Back Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.11.18 18:50:00 - [22] - Quote Just spend your isks, they are here for that ! Monde de fous...
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 113	Posted - 2015.11.18 20:49:00 - [23] - Quote Radiant Pancake3 wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: Radiant Pancake3 wrote: You're that beta vet that didn't actually play during beta, are you not? If it helps I run my CalAss Apex with two complex damage mods with the basic rr... Or if I feel like not using basic I just have a copy with a proto Rr/ARR and use that... And yes, not playing during the Beta is starting to really feel like the worst decision I could have made. Think how advanced I'd be now if I'd kept going! The reasons I stopped were varied, but primarily to do with the fact that I couldn't seem to figure out how to get into matches. I guess the system is simply that different from EvE and I didn't have the time to figure it out, or at least I didn't think I did. Now, of course, it seems so simple, I'm kicking myself for not continuing to play... :( Figured as much... We should squad up sometime... For the meantime get your shield/armor skills to five. Helps alot... Yes, good advice! My EvE main, Nalianna, is level 5 Caldari everything, which makes her pretty impressive. Poor Alena looks positively sick next to her. As for squadding up, is there some point at which it becomes beneficial to a player like me? I've noticed I tend to die a lot more in squads. Could be that the squads put me in situations where I die more and faster, but they're certainly more interesting than dying alone! ;)
Mortedeamor The Black Masquerade 2	Posted - 2015.11.18 20:52:00 - [24] - Quote DEATH THE KlD wrote: Mortedeamor wrote: i believe a balanced approach is best i never run proto weapons on anything except a proto suit..doing so throws your suit into what i like to call glass cannon mode Oo I remember those days..ahh broken damage mods, good times yeah it used to actually be a thing now its just downright stupid pc master race PORT IT CCP
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 113	Posted - 2015.11.18 20:56:00 - [25] - Quote Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: How much is your fully pro fit? I've gone isk negative in the last 2 weeks. Been running full pro (214k) and I've had the misfortune to lose my predator instinct. Been dying stupid deaths lately. Decided to run only basic. Hopefully, I'll improve. Dying stupid deaths. Yeah, that sounds like me most of the time. :) I know how to aim, I can hit the target most of the time but they seem to be able to cut me up before I can cut them up. What's been happening more often lately is that one or other of us will die and the other will have armour hanging by a thread. I know just a little more DPS would fix that, but the expense of a Kaala or Ishukone is prohibitive if I keep dying like I do. My fully pro fits are Caldari State fitted, run to around 40K plus about 600LP with State Peacekeepers. I don't really know what that translates to in ISK, but I think it's a lot. I only make about 2000LP on a winning match. Also, with most of my fitting skills down around lvl 3, I can't actually fit full pro fits. Only my weapons are at lvl 5, and proficiency is only about lvl 2. I'm working on that... :) Right now I'm just running APEX fits with minimal modification, but I might try the pro fits for a bit on an experiment. What I've noticed mostly lately is I can't find "lone" targets. All in starting to see know it's a heavy with rep and an assault near them. Which is bad for m cuz all my suits are Gallente (cqc) and it's Obviously impossible to win a 3-1. TLDR- I'm being ganged up on. Yes, I see this myself. Sort of seems a bit pointless for three or four of them to go after a lowly mid-skilled Assault, but they do - any kill is a good kill I guess, and there's no point difference between killing a noob and killing a full pro, not that I've ever killed a full pro as far as I know. But these teams seem to be just everywhere. I'll die to one at one objective, respawn near another objective, and there's another team doing the same thing there. Which is the basis of my post about unbalanced matching.... But that's another story.
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 113	Posted - 2015.11.18 21:01:00 - [26] - Quote maybe deadcatz wrote: One does not run proto weapons with apex suits in the first place. That's being scrubby,secondly get a combo of hp tank and make do with a advanced weapon. I just used milita weapon bpos to shave a lot of isk off of my total price. Well, APEX suits have a good basic weapon as part of the BPO, so I could just run with that. I've used ADV variants as well, and they do seem to make a difference, but now I think it's just a matter of the increased DPS giving me a little more of an edge.
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 113	Posted - 2015.11.18 21:03:00 - [27] - Quote Cquj The Merc wrote: If you have the krin's damage mod, you could always replace the shield energizer for more dps. Doesnt lower your direct tank in a fight, only slows your complete shield recovery by a few seconds. No I don't but yes, upgrading the damage mods in preference to the shield energizer does seem to be the wisdom here.
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 113	Posted - 2015.11.18 21:05:00 - [28] - Quote Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: Mortedeamor wrote: Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: How much is your fully pro fit? I've gone isk negative in the last 2 weeks. Been running full pro (214k) and I've had the misfortune to lose my predator instinct. Been dying stupid deaths lately. Decided to run only basic. Hopefully, I'll improve. everyone who proto spams relentlessly drops in skill...when you kick the ** out of scrubs who dont stand a chance 80% of the time and give yourself no real challenge what do you expect go run lower gear and wipe the rust off lightening Yeah.... I've seen that. The respec spoiled me. So do deleted all my pro/off fits! No more pro stomping from me for a while. This is the second time I do this. The only** way to keep one's skills and/or improve them is to be consistently up against opponents who are a bit better than you, not so much that you can't win against them occasionally, but enough to give you time to learn how to get around their superiority. That's the same in EvE and for that matter, RL.
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 113	Posted - 2015.11.18 21:10:00 - [29] - Quote LOL KILLZ wrote: Have STD,ADV, and PRO of your favorite fits. STD not so much as you can run a MLT fit and get the same results s a standard. PRO fits don't ever see the light of day from me unless I'm really wanting you dead. Or I see a big name Corp Merc that thinks it will be safe to whip out his PRO fit in a pub match. Interesting. So what's the point of STD? I can see the point of ADV and PRO, but STD seems somewhat pointless other than as a first step out of MLT suits. I no longer run STD suits, only APEX (Caldari State) or MLT for BPOs and ADV otherwise. I have State Assault and State Scout PRO suits but I haven't used them because losing them seems just too expensive and easy to do. :)
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 113	Posted - 2015.11.18 21:14:00 - [30] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: How much is your fully pro fit? I've gone isk negative in the last 2 weeks. Been running full pro (214k) and I've had the misfortune to lose my predator instinct. Been dying stupid deaths lately. Decided to run only basic. Hopefully, I'll improve. Dying stupid deaths. Yeah, that sounds like me most of the time. :) I know how to aim, I can hit the target most of the time but they seem to be able to cut me up before I can cut them up. What's been happening more often lately is that one or other of us will die and the other will have armour hanging by a thread. I know just a little more DPS would fix that, but the expense of a Kaala or Ishukone is prohibitive if I keep dying like I do. My fully pro fits are Caldari State fitted, run to around 40K plus about 600LP with State Peacekeepers. I don't really know what that translates to in ISK, but I think it's a lot. I only make about 2000LP on a winning match. Also, with most of my fitting skills down around lvl 3, I can't actually fit full pro fits. Only my weapons are at lvl 5, and proficiency is only about lvl 2. I'm working on that... :) Right now I'm just running APEX fits with minimal modification, but I might try the pro fits for a bit on an experiment. What I've noticed mostly lately is I can't find "lone" targets. All in starting to see know it's a heavy with rep and an assault near them. Which is bad for m cuz all my suits are Gallente (cqc) and it's Obviously impossible to win a 3-1. TLDR- I'm being ganged up on. no one fights one v one now you get jumped by 3 dudes every time Yes, there are people who still fight one v one, the noobs, like me. Every time I see someone just standing there, alone, sighting me, and I take all of one second to send them packing, I know it's a noob. I remember when I would do that, all of three months ago...



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