It would help if players would help the newbros out instead of telling them to "git gud" or "htfu". Players usually forget that they were new to the game at one point too. I would love the player base to grow by leaps and bounds. However, newbros will continue to leave because of ******* pub stompers. Now, those dicks earned the right to run proto and kudos for that but damn. I can run it too but i don't in pubs.

Well we may have to agree to disagree here. When I said that we should help, I didn't mean do everthing for them. Imeant teach them the ropes. It wouldn't hurt anything. Let them know how to fit their dropsuits and vehicles. If nothing else, it would only help. We can't newbros to stay if we pound them into oblivion.

I cant disagree more, you see when I first started out playing I was completely on my own, no help from anyone I had to find out how to survive on my own against proto stomps and randoms

new players do need to harden up and they do need to get good but that doesn't mean they should do that overnight it simply means they need to learn the game and get better so they can compete, my suggestion is simply giving them more time to get introduced I wouldn't want them to get too comfy on easy mode

I can however somewhat agree that veteran players can lend a hand but I don't mean donating apex suits and stuff like that simply working better as a team should be enough

I agree with this.

In Eve Online, you often see players tell you to harden up when things go south for you. But what do they mean by that? Well, they don't mean that they will not help you when you are new and don't know certain things yet. They will definitely help you figure out things like how to manufacture, which core skills to look for in a given profession, understanding certain words like POS, Pod, Dessy, Primaries, etc., how to understand the contract system, how to understand the market, and so on.

What they mean by "harden the frakk up" is that no one is going to hold your hand forever. Eventually, you have to learn from your own mistakes. If you were told to watch out for ISK-doubling scams, but you get caught up in one anyways, then it is YOUR fault. Not the game's or CCP's. If you got suicide ganked in high security space even after being warned ahead of time by the members of CODE and you lose your 150 million ISK exhumer filled to the brim with nice ore in the process, it is still your fault. So harden the frakk up.

That's what they mean by HTFU.

Sicerly, your need to disagree with everyone is clearly clouding you to the fact Apollo is with you on this. He, like you, knows the NPE is a mess and it needs fixing.

You are right that the fix needs to include much better tutorials and a longer time in the academy.

But Apollo is also right that the fix needs to include mentoring from older players.

Just because you couldn't find a quick and simple way to teach someone the basics doesn't mean that they can't be taught.

We'll have to wait for Apollo to tell us what he meant by

It would help if players would help the newbros out instead of telling them to "git gud" or "htfu"

but I think he was referring to older players telling new players to go away and work it out themselves without help from anyone. That is bad.

Telling new players to HTFU in the context of 'this game is complicated and brutal, you shouldn't get in the habit of asking someone about every little question you've got'. That is good.

Coming from Eve Online myself, and as a current Director of Dust University

Thanks for jumping in and contributing. Obviously we agree so I'll just leave it as a +1 for what you said.

How close are your guys affiliated with E-uni?

EDIT: also TIL that frakk is spelled with two K's.

Sicerly, your need to disagree with everyone is clearly clouding you to the fact Apollo is with you on this. He, like you, knows the NPE is a mess and it needs fixing.

You are right that the fix needs to include much better tutorials and a longer time in the academy.

But Apollo is also right that the fix needs to include mentoring from older players.

Just because you couldn't find a quick and simple way to teach someone the basics doesn't mean that they can't be taught.

That is what mentors or supervisors are for. They are there to help you finish learning how to be a professional aircraft mechanic by showing you tips and tricks that no school or college ever has time to show you or understand.

This is no different from video gaming. You pick up a controller to play a FPS game and the tutorials help a lot, but they don't teach you how to strategize like a veteran player. They don't teach you the tricks to being a great HAV or Derpship pilot. That is something only a veteran can help you with.

OK cool your jets dude, you've got some good ideas and are coming from the right place but goddamn you're quick to jump down everyones throat.

I say this because I've tried teaching new players the basics but they take a while to learn and I don't have the time or patience to stick with them for a few days for them to just end up leaving due to the competition

The way you put it doesn't really read like you were effective. When you add in the context that you were pretty much saying we shouldn't do this because it didn't work for you, it almost sounds like "If I couldn't do it no-one can". Please don't take this as a personal attack - I'm not saying you didn't do your best - but dismissing ideas so quickly is not how this thing is going to get fixed.

I completely agree that new players can and do burn out from being killed over and over before they've had a chance to learn enough, but that just means that one of the key skills a mentor would need to have is being able to effectively manage a new players expectations.

This is exactly what I meant. A tutorial can never teach you what an experienced player can. There is a huge difference between telling a newbro how to do something and showing them (I'm reffering to tactical/squad gameplay). Walking them through dropsuit fittings and explaining it as you go will help them understand far better than a tutorial. If us vets don't teach them, who or what will? Being proto stomped sure as hell won't do anything but discourage newbros to stop playing. Do we really want that?

Sicerly, thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough response. I actually do now feel I can take in what you're saying from the right perspective.

I will take you up on your offer to clarify something though:
Would you like to see the improved NPE include a system that puts new players in contact with a mentor before leaving the academy?

Would you like to see the improved NPE include a system that puts new players in contact with a mentor before leaving the academy?

Your advanced tutorial idea is great, really. So, that being said, what are you thinking? Give me some numbers to start with here.

I would be and I have made other posts addressing those issues, it has been requested to allow veteran players to take newer ones under their wing with certain bonuses to encourage veterans to interact with and teach them

however I do have a problem with veteran players mixing with newer ones with the current way dust works

in EvE if you go out of high sec in search of higher level less secure areas to do whatever you get punished severely by other players usually vets and big corps that control certain areas in nullsec and even in low sec you constantly put yourself in danger of getting ganked

so you see I dont mind vets teaching newbros but that also means they have to either bring the newbros to their league or join the league of the newbros where they have a huge advantage due to their knowledge and allowing that to happen will cause certain players to abuse the system to simply farm the less informed newer players

fundamentally I would like to see a step stone system such as in eve with one place being safer for newer players and getting increasingly more difficult as they improve and expand their horizons

even now it is possible for a veteran player to get into the academy by making a completely different account on a different psn however they quickly graduate and dont cause too much harm

to address that issue I believe new players should not be placed against real players and rather be placed against bots of some sort , this could be the high sec as well as the main npc content that allows vets to play with them and teach them in a safe environment to prepare them for the real battles, then pubs could be the low sec simply restricting gear used by security level, FW and PC would be the null sec free for all as it currently is as well as the lower security pubs

so you see the issue isnt as simple as just A and B, we in fact have to take into account a lot of other factors and slowly work our way to a functioning efficient system

and slowly work our way to a functioning efficient system
This is a good philosophy. Lets start now?

What if 'Mentor' was a position that could only be given to a player by a GM, like the Eve players that are allowed to stay in the newbie help channel? Mentors would be able to jump into an academy battle and form a squad with the new players, knowing that they're there to teach and to not go too nuts on the reds.

fundamentally I would like to see a step stone system such as in eve with one place being safer for newer players and getting increasingly more difficult as they improve and expand their horizons

I've out lined the specifics of such a system recently. Feedback appreciated.

I believe the correct chronological order would be as follows

introduce a tutorial system

build a better NPE system- could be one of many suggested ideas including some of your own

introduce PVE system-maybe along with the NPE system

then we can get mentors setup...

if you are interested in being a mentor now and cant see yourself waiting for such changes that's fine and I encourage that much, but you might want to contact one of the major newbie friendly corps as you may be more useful with a team then by yourself, I'm sure they'd be happy to have you help out