DUST Search - NPE testing shows severe problems

Sicerly Yaw wrote:

Shaun Iwairo wrote:

Sicerly, thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough response. I actually do now feel I can take in what you're saying from the right perspective.

I will take you up on your offer to clarify something though:
Would you like to see the improved NPE include a system that puts new players in contact with a mentor before leaving the academy?

I would be and I have made other posts addressing those issues, it has been requested to allow veteran players to take newer ones under their wing with certain bonuses to encourage veterans to interact with and teach them

however I do have a problem with veteran players mixing with newer ones with the current way dust works

in EvE if you go out of high sec in search of higher level less secure areas to do whatever you get punished severely by other players usually vets and big corps that control certain areas in nullsec and even in low sec you constantly put yourself in danger of getting ganked

so you see I dont mind vets teaching newbros but that also means they have to either bring the newbros to their league or join the league of the newbros where they have a huge advantage due to their knowledge and allowing that to happen will cause certain players to abuse the system to simply farm the less informed newer players

fundamentally I would like to see a step stone system such as in eve with one place being safer for newer players and getting increasingly more difficult as they improve and expand their horizons

even now it is possible for a veteran player to get into the academy by making a completely different account on a different psn however they quickly graduate and dont cause too much harm

to address that issue I believe new players should not be placed against real players and rather be placed against bots of some sort , this could be the high sec as well as the main npc content that allows vets to play with them and teach them in a safe environment to prepare them for the real battles, then pubs could be the low sec simply restricting gear used by security level, FW and PC would be the null sec free for all as it currently is as well as the lower security pubs

so you see the issue isnt as simple as just A and B, we in fact have to take into account a lot of other factors and slowly work our way to a functioning efficient system


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Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 119	Posted - 2015.10.16 23:54:00 - [1] - Quote Sicerly, your need to disagree with everyone is clearly clouding you to the fact Apollo is with you on this. He, like you, knows the NPE is a mess and it needs fixing. You are right that the fix needs to include much better tutorials and a longer time in the academy. But Apollo is also right that the fix needs to include mentoring from older players. Just because you couldn't find a quick and simple way to teach someone the basics doesn't mean that they can't be taught. Something is killing new player retention.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 120	Posted - 2015.10.17 00:54:00 - [2] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I agree with this. In Eve Online, you often see players tell you to harden up when things go south for you. But what do they mean by that? Well, they don't mean that they will not help you when you are new and don't know certain things yet. They will definitely help you figure out things like how to manufacture, which core skills to look for in a given profession, understanding certain words like POS, Pod, Dessy, Primaries, etc., how to understand the contract system, how to understand the market, and so on. What they mean by "harden the frakk up" is that no one is going to hold your hand forever. Eventually, you have to learn from your own mistakes. If you were told to watch out for ISK-doubling scams, but you get caught up in one anyways, then it is YOUR fault. Not the game's or CCP's. If you got suicide ganked in high security space even after being warned ahead of time by the members of CODE and you lose your 150 million ISK exhumer filled to the brim with nice ore in the process, it is still your fault. So harden the frakk up. That's what they mean by HTFU. We'll have to wait for Apollo to tell us what he meant by It would help if players would help the newbros out instead of telling them to "git gud" or "htfu" but I think he was referring to older players telling new players to go away and work it out themselves without help from anyone. That is bad. Telling new players to HTFU in the context of 'this game is complicated and brutal, you shouldn't get in the habit of asking someone about every little question you've got'. That is good. Something is killing new player retention.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 120	Posted - 2015.10.17 01:16:00 - [3] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Coming from Eve Online myself, and as a current Director of Dust University Thanks for jumping in and contributing. Obviously we agree so I'll just leave it as a +1 for what you said. How close are your guys affiliated with E-uni? EDIT: also TIL that frakk is spelled with two K's. Something is killing new player retention.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 125	Posted - 2015.10.17 02:37:00 - [4] - Quote OK cool your jets dude, you've got some good ideas and are coming from the right place but goddamn you're quick to jump down everyones throat. I say this because I've tried teaching new players the basics but they take a while to learn and I don't have the time or patience to stick with them for a few days for them to just end up leaving due to the competition The way you put it doesn't really read like you were effective. When you add in the context that you were pretty much saying we shouldn't do this because it didn't work for you, it almost sounds like "If I couldn't do it no-one can". Please don't take this as a personal attack - I'm not saying you didn't do your best - but dismissing ideas so quickly is not how this thing is going to get fixed. I completely agree that new players can and do burn out from being killed over and over before they've had a chance to learn enough, but that just means that one of the key skills a mentor would need to have is being able to effectively manage a new players expectations. Something is killing new player retention.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 126	Posted - 2015.10.17 03:16:00 - [5] - Quote Sicerly, thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough response. I actually do now feel I can take in what you're saying from the right perspective. I will take you up on your offer to clarify something though: Would you like to see the improved NPE include a system that puts new players in contact with a mentor before leaving the academy? Something is killing new player retention.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 126	Posted - 2015.10.17 03:46:00 - [6] - Quote Sicerly Yaw wrote: Shaun Iwairo wrote: Sicerly, thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough response. I actually do now feel I can take in what you're saying from the right perspective. I will take you up on your offer to clarify something though: Would you like to see the improved NPE include a system that puts new players in contact with a mentor before leaving the academy? I would be and I have made other posts addressing those issues, it has been requested to allow veteran players to take newer ones under their wing with certain bonuses to encourage veterans to interact with and teach them however I do have a problem with veteran players mixing with newer ones with the current way dust works in EvE if you go out of high sec in search of higher level less secure areas to do whatever you get punished severely by other players usually vets and big corps that control certain areas in nullsec and even in low sec you constantly put yourself in danger of getting ganked so you see I dont mind vets teaching newbros but that also means they have to either bring the newbros to their league or join the league of the newbros where they have a huge advantage due to their knowledge and allowing that to happen will cause certain players to abuse the system to simply farm the less informed newer players fundamentally I would like to see a step stone system such as in eve with one place being safer for newer players and getting increasingly more difficult as they improve and expand their horizons even now it is possible for a veteran player to get into the academy by making a completely different account on a different psn however they quickly graduate and dont cause too much harm to address that issue I believe new players should not be placed against real players and rather be placed against bots of some sort , this could be the high sec as well as the main npc content that allows vets to play with them and teach them in a safe environment to prepare them for the real battles, then pubs could be the low sec simply restricting gear used by security level, FW and PC would be the null sec free for all as it currently is as well as the lower security pubs so you see the issue isnt as simple as just A and B, we in fact have to take into account a lot of other factors and slowly work our way to a functioning efficient system and slowly work our way to a functioning efficient system This is a good philosophy. Lets start now? What if 'Mentor' was a position that could only be given to a player by a GM, like the Eve players that are allowed to stay in the newbie help channel? Mentors would be able to jump into an academy battle and form a squad with the new players, knowing that they're there to teach and to not go too nuts on the reds. fundamentally I would like to see a step stone system such as in eve with one place being safer for newer players and getting increasingly more difficult as they improve and expand their horizons I've out lined the specifics of such a system recently. Feedback appreciated. Something is killing new player retention.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 133	Posted - 2015.10.17 05:05:00 - [7] - Quote Sicerly Yaw wrote: I believe the correct chronological order would be as follows introduce a tutorial system build a better NPE system- could be one of many suggested ideas including some of your own introduce PVE system-maybe along with the NPE system then we can get mentors setup... Yep sounds sensible, but realistically mentors could be implemented at any time and still be some help. Not as much as with a full NPE, but still some. Sicerly Yaw wrote: if you are interested in being a mentor now and cant see yourself waiting for such changes that's fine and I encourage that much, but you might want to contact one of the major newbie friendly corps as you may be more useful with a team then by yourself, I'm sure they'd be happy to have you help out I didn't even think of this. Maken Tosch if you're still following this thread - With your and D-Uni's help I'd like to petition CCP to give my character (and whoever else is willing to come along) conditional access to the academy for the purpose of mentoring with the aim of improving new player retention. Conditional, of course, on good and fair behavior as far as the redberries go. I've also dropped an app into your corp. Something is killing new player retention.