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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.08 21:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Recently came to my attention that the shield changes may have broken Sniper Rifles are a quick report. What led us to believe this was that the mathematics, in extreme cases, led to some really interesting (if amusing) mathematical results in that some shield suits could actually out-regen the incoming damage from Sniper Rifles. This may come as joyous news to some but we're not keen on weapons becoming broken or non-functional in game.
I ran out on the field with Thaddeus Reynolds (thank you, sir) for a quick test of this to see if it was a valid concern. Our baseline control was a Standard Sniper Rifle with no damage mods. I had Thaddeus make several fits with different sniper rifles and different damage mods on different suits. We would start with the Standard Sniper Rifle, which offered the lowest baseline damage provided no other factors played into it (apart from the aforementioned warbarge blanket bonus).
When pitted against this fit, which has been making the rounds on the forums and on skype: http://i.imgur.com/aBTR3DQ.png The results were such: https://youtu.be/xMbfHnipvRM?t=55s
As you can see in that video, the sniper rifle - when used with precision to land body shots as quickly as possible - CAN break through the shield tank as the rounds hit faster than the regen cycle can start. However, this is with a stationary target and the results of a moving target may differ. Unfortunately, we could not test this as Thaddeus wound up getting banned from FW (my apologies, sir).
Against a Balac's however, the results are quite different: https://youtu.be/MCyt3oBj2dM?t=1m25s
Obviously this is an extreme case so it may not apply to everyone and all situations. However, this is a formal request from users of sniper rifles to relay your experiences when firing on other players - particularly players who are shield tanking. Please answer the following questions:
WITHOUT HEADSHOTS: a) Could you break their shields? b) Could you kill them? c) How many shots did it take? d) What is your fit? e) Additional comments
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Anmol Singh
G0DS AM0NG MEN
989
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Posted - 2015.10.08 22:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:=
WITHOUT HEADSHOTS: a) Could you break their shields? b) Could you kill them? c) How many shots did it take? d) What is your fit? e) Additional comments
a) No because I couldn't land consistently enough to break shields. It's hard to hit jumpy strafy assaults and missing one shot makes it so they will get all shields back. b)Def not c) Infinite d) Proto Commando with Ishukone Sniper. The Charge Sniper is utterly useless e) I realized this while sniping today.
Sagaris lover!!!
Commando <3
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IceShifter Childhaspawn
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
794
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Posted - 2015.10.09 00:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
WITHOUT HEADSHOTS: a) Could you break their shields? No. b) Could you kill them? Only where I caught them off guard or helping out blueberries who were in a 1 v 1 c) How many shots did it take? 3- 4 d) What is your fit? Minmando+ dmg+ thales e) Additional comments The kincats and myos make tracking a ridiculous burden. The shields arent helping but I can not say for sure that they are at fault. Will update.
It's hard to beat up hundreds of armor piercing bullets using only your face...
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Radiant Pancake3
1
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Posted - 2015.10.09 01:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
#ShieldsAreOp #GgCCP
Learned the ways of N4g from Alcina's mom
Deemed the most Kinkiest Corp Mate.
Min Loyalist.
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xavier zor
XxAMBUSH FTWxX
2
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Posted - 2015.10.09 01:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote: WITHOUT HEADSHOTS: a) Could you break their shields? b) Could you kill them? c) How many shots did it take? d) What is your fit? e) Additional comments
A)I cannot break cal assault & commando shields unless someone else is their to shoot at them.
B)I could not kill them
C)1 (roden sniper rifle), and I didn't even get to armour
D) Commando ck.0
Roden sniper rifle Experimental assault rail rifle State Ishukone Quantum hive
2 complex shield regs 1 complex light dmgmod 1 enhanced shield extender 1 basic shield recharger
E) Sniper rifles still suck!
sLaYeR
I'm a knifing pussy ^-^/
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Saint Winter
The Warlords Legion
158
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Posted - 2015.10.09 01:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hello everyone .
1.10 Sniper Rifle
The weapon with the greatest reach of the whole game, I like it.
1.10.1 Weapon General
Widely criticized because it is not for close combat and maybe I'm wrong but I say that is a weapon to defend and help, although most use it to win WP without dying. (I apologize if I offend but it seems)
1.10.2 Variants
This gun has four variants existing without exception carried isk to 3.
1.10.2.1 Breach Sniper Rifle
This weapon is the Sniper Rifle Roden. (Their characteristics are, the charger 1 bullet damage is extremely large, and has the best scope with his DPS is the lowest).
This together with the charge , and the normal form tactic 4 variants.
Ok now this is one of the weapons I have analyzed more so here I have a teeter between 4 variants.
First the scope
The scope is allowing tactical position to get some distance from the objective either to take care of other snipers, scouts, etc ...
Variants represent her in acronyms, Sniper Rifle (SR), Tactical Sniper Rifle (TSR) Breach Sniper Rifle (BSR), Charge Sniper Rifle (CSR).
Scope: BSR 500 mts, CSR 450 mts , SR 400 mts, TSR 350 mts .
For the third SR for logical reasons
The BSR :has tremendous firepower and therefore go further. The CSR :loading a powerful projectile although not as powerful as the FFR is why this second. The SR :to have a normal fire power is a balance between all the variants I say The TSR :has great speed for SR fire and that would sacrifice much of their reach.
Now I will put the damage values GÇïGÇïof each variant of this weapon and hope you are happy with this.
New Levels
Exp (Experimental), Ofi (Official)
BSR: Bas 350 damage / Adv 400 damage / Pro 450 damage / Exp 500 damage / Ofi + 550 damage DPS 50
CSR: Bas 280 damage / Adv damage 320 / Pro 360 damage / Exp 400 damage / Ofi + 440 damage DPS = Load 3 sec and charger 3 bullets.
CSR: Being 100% charged ago estimated the damage but if they do at half load 50% damage is reduced by half.
SR : Bas 230 damage / Adv damage 260 / Pro 290 damage / Exp 320 damage / Ofi + 350 damage DPS 100 and 5 round charger
TSR : Bas 220 damage / Adv 240 damage / Pro 260 damage / Exp 280 damage / Ofi + 300 damage DPS 200 and a 6 bullets
Note:The SR and TSR have the ability to triple the damage headshot.
I hope you like the idea, of course I do not use much the sniper, but I already have an idea of how they should modify their weapons. |
Mortishai Belmont
G.L.O.R.Y
1
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Posted - 2015.10.09 01:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
ROF for tactical and regular sniper are fast enough to beat recharge. Charge sniper, why would you go for anything but a headshot? Also depending on your suit and damage capabilities with it, you might just one shot them, shield and all.
As before it depends on aim, it's just like trying to kill someone before they can get behind cover. Snipers will find they need to make more of an effort for the comfort of shooting so far away from the battle.
The C.E.O. of G.L.O.R.Y,
(~..)~ Now on Youtube ~(..~)
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xavier zor
XxAMBUSH FTWxX
2
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Posted - 2015.10.09 01:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mortishai Belmont wrote:ROF for tactical and regular sniper are fast enough to beat recharge. Charge sniper, why would you go for anything but a headshot? Also depending on your suit and damage capabilities with it, you might just one shot them, shield and all.
As before it depends on aim, it's just like trying to kill someone before they can get behind cover. Snipers will find they need to make more of an effort for the comfort of shooting so far away from the battle.
I would love if the tactical sniper rifle got a scope similar to the tactical assault rifle (zoom wise) so people wouldn't have to sit in the redline to get kills with it. Either way reducing the scope zoom on all sniper rifles won't hurt anyone but redline campers which is a good thing!!
sLaYeR
I'm a knifing pussy ^-^/
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Samantha Hunyz
Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation
219
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Posted - 2015.10.09 04:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
a) Could you break their shields? Yes b) Could you kill them? Medium and light suits was possible to get a kill semi regular, just took more rounds. c) How many shots did it take? 1-3 magazines d) What is your fit? Commando CK0 3 complex damage, 2 complex regs, Kaal Tac e) Additional comments: With the tac, if the first 2 shots land back to back as fast as possible, you will break shields. This requires yet another 3rd fast fired round to kill before shield regeneration kicks in. Very painful, but possible.
Jumpys I give up after their first jump to save my ammo. Still shifted my style to shoot into groups that are currently engaging with blues to better my chance of a kill.
For the most part I will be leaving shield stragglers alone unless I can get a guaranteed head shot first try. Headshots will leave them with around 1/5th of their shields, so a quick follow up shot usually for the kill.
When I look down my scope, all I see are dead people.
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 09:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thanks for the feedback guys. Keep it coming.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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No-one-ganks like-Gaston
Corrosive Synergy
203
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Posted - 2015.10.09 10:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
Good on you guys for getting to this as soon as you realized there may be a problem, which it looks like there may be, going by the comments. Do you have any potential solutions running 'round your heads yet, and how long do you think it may take to get this patched up once you've got a fix?
It's happened once or twice someone couldn't pay the price, and I'm afraid I had to rake 'em 'cross the coals.
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CommanderBolt
Dead Man's Game
4
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Posted - 2015.10.09 11:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
*Useless redline camping lazy arse dont go for the point fagzzz /mumble grumble*
Not that I have been running around with a Caldari suit recently but screw snipers. Screw them ALL to HELL!
When snipers become actually usable on the move or standing up so that the operator does not have to crouch in some ridiculous position to be able to shoot.... then I will give a damn about that weapon.
Until then I rejoice!
Sorry I know this is not helping... It's ok I will see myself out..
This is the turning point, the rising of the tide.
No fear inside
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Thor Odinson42
Ancient Exiles. Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
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Posted - 2015.10.09 11:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
Good!!!!!!
One step closer to making Dust fun again.
Now if we could just figure out a way to explain to snipers what those little boxes with letters that blink and change colors are.
Seriously, port it.
Hurry
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 13:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote:Good on you guys for getting to this as soon as you realized there may be a problem, which it looks like there may be, going by the comments. Do you have any potential solutions running 'round your heads yet, and how long do you think it may take to get this patched up once you've got a fix?
Dunno yet, really. As far as a duration for a fix, I can't say because we need to know what needs to be fixed, first. Still deciding whether this is an issue with shields or sniper rifles. Likely the latter as they've been under-performing somewhat but will look into it further.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.10.09 14:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
I don't think this is a problem with shields. I think if you fit for an extreme shield regen fit you should gain a certain amount of defence from snipers. There's nothing wrong with that.
I think the problem lies with sniper rifles. They just don't do enough damage. The average hp and regen of a suit is much higher than it used to be. I think the Thales is in about the right place for a sniper. The problem is a proto rifle does much less damage. If damage was buffed to be just a small amount below a Thales, I think snipers would be in a good place.
So at the moment a proto rifle does 250 base damage. A Thale's does 373. If the proto rifle did 350 damage it would be in a much better place, for example.
I accept there are other problems, such as hit detection. I think these are problem's we'll probably have to live with. Snipers can become relevant again with a simple fix like this. |
Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
1
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Posted - 2015.10.09 14:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Dunno yet, really. As far as a duration for a fix, I can't say because we need to know what needs to be fixed, first. Still deciding whether this is an issue with shields or sniper rifles. Likely the latter as they've been under-performing somewhat but will look into it further. I'd just consider the new shield stats an engineering problem for non-Caldari weapons engineers and try to come up with battleworthy solutions to the problem.
So Caldari managed to reduce their recharge delays. Thus if you want to take them out from a distance you need to come up with a sniper rifle that has a better RoF than current solutions. It'd probably be easiest to modify the tactical SR in that direction. It then starts to becomes a Gallentean SL: Relatively short range, fast RoF, large clip size, hopefully also better DPS than other SRs.
Alternatively you could follow a high-alpha doctrine. If one shot takes the caldari suit down to 25% of its health and it only gets to recharge up to 60% by the time the second shot hits, it'll be dead anyhow.
All in all a general DPS increase for SRs seems appropriate though. I haven't really seen SRs as a threat lately, more a nuisance (a tactically valuable nuisance under some circumstances, but a nuisance nevertheless). |
Echo 1991
Titans of Phoenix Damage LLC
974
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Posted - 2015.10.09 15:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
I told you shield regen was too high.
Wanna play eve?
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 15:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Dunno yet, really. As far as a duration for a fix, I can't say because we need to know what needs to be fixed, first. Still deciding whether this is an issue with shields or sniper rifles. Likely the latter as they've been under-performing somewhat but will look into it further. I'd just consider the new shield stats an engineering problem for non-Caldari weapons engineers and try to come up with battleworthy solutions to the problem. So Caldari managed to reduce their recharge delays. Thus if you want to take them out from a distance you need to come up with a sniper rifle that has a better RoF than current solutions. It'd probably be easiest to modify the tactical SR in that direction. It then starts to becomes a Gallentean SL: Relatively short range, fast RoF, large clip size, hopefully also better DPS than other SRs. Alternatively you could follow a high-alpha doctrine. If one shot takes the caldari suit down to 25% of its health and it only gets to recharge up to 60% by the time the second shot hits, it'll be dead anyhow. All in all a general DPS increase for SRs seems appropriate though. I haven't really seen SRs as a threat lately, more a nuisance (a tactically valuable nuisance under some circumstances, but a nuisance nevertheless).
Interesting. Wonder if we could make a variation of the Laser Rifle to have longer range and better zoom fidelity rather than trying to force the Sniper Rifle - traditionally an anti-armor weapon - into that role.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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IceShifter Childhaspawn
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
794
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Posted - 2015.10.09 20:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
Rattai has previously said he has zero problems with zoom increases... FYI
It's hard to beat up hundreds of armor piercing bullets using only your face...
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Daddrobit
You Can Call Me Daddy
2
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Posted - 2015.10.09 23:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
Pffft, the Sniper Rifle gets an inadvertent nerf making it incredibly difficult to kill a series of suits and a portion of the community rejoices or wants it nerfed further.
If you guys who think like that are ever baffled and complain about the small population of the game, go look in a mirror for a bit.
Killing the sniper community loses players from the game, players that otherwise may have spent money to help further development. It's the game equivalent of "Never send for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
As for relevant feedback, there are two ways to view "helping snipers".
One: make them useful on the battlefield, and/or
Two: make them good at killing.
Number one is next to impossible for two reasons. It would require maps be altered to allow snipers to cover points up to 300 meters away, (there's no other good use for them) and two, the community would have a conniption fit at getting killed on the point.
Number two would be nice and is doable by bringing them in line with every other type of weapon and making the basics be X % less than the officers. And regardless, they really should get a damage buff. It's been a full year+ since they were last adjusted where they got a roughly 8% buff and headshot multiplier, but got their sights screwed with and had a huge range and zoom reduction at the same time.
Since then the base HP for suits has risen, (Delta) targets have been made harder to hit with jumpy mods, (Echo) and suit progression has been equalized allowing for far more survivability for militia, standard, and advanced level suits, (Warlords 1.2).
Snipers could use a little help. Again, the way to do this would be to bring them in line with the other weapons % relevance to the officer variants.
Example: Duvolle is 86% the damage of a Balacs. So make the Ishukone damage 86% of a Thales. That's 320 damage. Then the Tactical SR is 88.4% the damage of vanilla, so that gets put at 282.8 damage.
Still not enough to kill even a completely untanked Minmatar basic frame, but that headshot's starting to look like it's something dangerous, which it Should be.
O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
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Zan Azikuchi
G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance
285
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Posted - 2015.10.09 23:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:I told you shield regen was too high.
Sniper Rifles are too weak, thats the real issue. Perhaps a sniper rifle should halt regen on both shield and armor from all sources?
EDIT: Like the shield would delay for 5 secoond's and depleted 6 second's and armor the same way, for 5 second's would halt all regen from any source.
When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
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Zatara Rought
Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
5
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Posted - 2015.10.10 00:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
I'm a nub, but I'd love to see sniping attain the capacity to mark targets and I think they need a better capacity to locate targets and engage them.
I don't pretend to know enough about snipers to have a panacea to the issue of their damage being so underwhelming that players like my bud symbioticforks simply up and quit.
I have always felt that snipers wouldn't have been annoying before their damage was nerfed if we had more counters to stop them.
I remember gem cutter sniping and holding down home point long ago against a 3 man push and it being impossible to find him in a reasonable time frame within a competitive match context, and even if we could find him...the time it would have taken for him to get setup again would have been much quicker than the time and player commitment necessary to contest him.
I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :)
No matter what. FAmily
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Daddrobit
You Can Call Me Daddy
2
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Posted - 2015.10.10 01:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:I'm a nub, but I'd love to see sniping attain the capacity to mark targets and I think they need a better capacity to locate targets and engage them.
I don't pretend to know enough about snipers to have a panacea to the issue of their damage being so underwhelming that players like my bud symbioticforks simply up and quit.
I have always felt that snipers wouldn't have been annoying before their damage was nerfed if we had more counters to stop them.
I remember gem cutter sniping and holding down home point long ago against a 3 man push and it being impossible to find him in a reasonable time frame within a competitive match context, and even if we could find him...the time it would have taken for him to get setup again would have been much quicker than the time and player commitment necessary to contest him.
A huge part of the problem is that they have nothing to do. There's almost no tactical points to cover outside of 250m and getting closer than that is tantamount to suicide. At 250m, a Duvolle still does 88 DPS which still hurts like a mother and screws with your aim.
Dedicated snipers like myself, Gem, and Symb have nothing to do, and even what we can do is further hampered by poor hit detection and being easily called out and killed. So either you do something you don't want to do or you play through massive frustration until you quit.
O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
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Samantha Hunyz
Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation
220
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Posted - 2015.10.10 20:12:00 -
[24] - Quote
Daddrobit wrote:Zatara Rought wrote:I'm a nub, but I'd love to see sniping attain the capacity to mark targets and I think they need a better capacity to locate targets and engage them.
I don't pretend to know enough about snipers to have a panacea to the issue of their damage being so underwhelming that players like my bud symbioticforks simply up and quit.
I have always felt that snipers wouldn't have been annoying before their damage was nerfed if we had more counters to stop them.
I remember gem cutter sniping and holding down home point long ago against a 3 man push and it being impossible to find him in a reasonable time frame within a competitive match context, and even if we could find him...the time it would have taken for him to get setup again would have been much quicker than the time and player commitment necessary to contest him. A huge part of the problem is that they have nothing to do. There's almost no tactical points to cover outside of 250m and getting closer than that is tantamount to suicide. At 250m, a Duvolle still does 88 DPS which still hurts like a mother and screws with your aim. Dedicated snipers like myself, Gem, and Symb have nothing to do, and even what we can do is further hampered by poor hit detection and being easily called out and killed. So either you do something you don't want to do or you play through massive frustration until you quit. Hit detection, lag, and FPS have always been a nightmare for snipers in dust. Decent to great players are able to fight through those limitations and still have fun and productive matches.
The range reduction never effected me as much as other snipers due to my playstyle. I used to play on the field in my scout dampened suit on my squads flanks. Engaging those that my squad was already or about to engage, as well as counter-snipping. Getting 10+ kills and 10 assists was an every match event.
The biggest issue the snipers have faced is all maps now have huge walls, with most the fighting being done in covered areas that do not allow the sniper to ever approach. Add to that the many towers which were added to maps that served no purpose but to block a good field of view for snipers. The range nerf hurt, but the current map meta is what caused snipers to no longer have a valid role.
As for the main topic of this thread, killing shield users has gotten more frustrating, but is doable. The tac and timing and landing all shots is super critical. My best setup for kills is assault CK0 max damage mods, kaalakiota tac. The charge might work if you used the half charge to take the shields to 1/5 than a full charge for the kill, but I do not know for sure. The charge sound hurts my ears and I simply will not use it or the sym fork due to it. That being said, missed shots will lead to frustration, 0 assist points, and just wasted ammo.
BTW all my kills were obtained while using a mouse controller combo. I prefer the controller but a few days ago I became to frustrated using the controller. I have used the controller since, and simply cannot land enough shots in the short window to kill a cal or min. Scouts are too fast to track at max sensitivity, assaults and above regen quick enough to negate the damage done. The mouse does have a huge glaring problem. It has a slight delay from mouse click to round fired some of the times. I find it easer to lead targets when the lag kicks in than to just point and click. Some matches it will be all point and click, other times have to lead all targets, and it can be frustrating to figure out how it will behave until some ammo is wasted.
When I look down my scope, all I see are dead people.
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