DUST Search - A Statement to GD about Matchmaking

Piercing Serenity wrote:

For the record, I was being intentionally sarcastic. I don't think that we should just twiddle our thumbs or anything. It was just annoying to see so many threads complaining about fixing matchmaking when matchmaking is already "fixed" by existing. To answer the suggestions posed earlier:

Metalocking fixes nothing, in my opinion. I think what we would see is people come up with an optimal Mlt, Std, and Adv suits, which would be tied to SP, and we would have Mlt, Std, and Adv stomping happen instead. For example, the lower meta levels would be dominated by HMG Heavies, as that is the most powerful gear for low SP players. If you don't believe me, ask anyone who was around after the big SP wipe. Everyone skilled into heavies (which were deemed OP at the time) because they gave the most bang for their SP cost. Additionally, vehicles would dominate, because our current vehicles are balanced around proto AV, which wouldn't fit in a Mlt meta locked game.

Solo queue ambush would probably be better than what we have now. At least everyone would know that there aren't any teams in the match, and that they had a relatively even playing field.

Poor solution, in my opinion. Dom sucks because it's too easy to pitch a tent over the objective. Once a team gets nice and entrenched, it just becomes ridiculously hard to push them out - even in really balanced PC matches. I think a better solution for domination would be to put the point on a completely exposed hill or plateau, instead of the close quarters "shoot down from the high ground" approach that people currently have.

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Piercing Serenity Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 1	Posted - 2015.10.04 18:20:00 - [1] - Quote Good afternoon (EST) GD, Over the past couple of months, I have seen our wonderful, logical, and emotionally reasonable home that is General Discussion become flooded with complaining completely uncharacteristic of GD. These complaints have taken the form of "CCP! Fix your Matchmaking!" or "Let's go back to the old matchmaking CCP!". These forum posts are so puzzling to me because, as every DUST forum-goer knows, we did not have a trace of matchmaking prior to Rattati's matchmaking system. Additionally, it is common knowledge that no matchmaker in the world can balance <2000 players by skill, and that low PCU counts are the biggest factor in low match quality. But, as mentioned earlier, this is all common knowledge. Has there been some recent revelation that I have missed? Please PM me in-game If you, or anyone you know, can explain how this common knowledge has somehow been forgotten by our normally intellectually critical DUSTers. "For people who don't really do S**T, ya'll really doing the most" Lv. 1 Forum Warrior
Death Shadow117 Wolf Pack Special Forces Rise Of Legion. 846	Posted - 2015.10.04 20:32:00 - [2] - Quote I feel dust could be helped by having lobbies that deploy when full/mostly full and no one can leave or join once the match starts but you can while in the lobby. COD survied so long for a reason.
Count- -Crotchula TasteTheTamsen 1	Posted - 2015.10.04 20:33:00 - [3] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Good afternoon (EST) GD, Over the past couple of months, I have seen our wonderful, logical, and emotionally reasonable home that is General Discussion become flooded with complaining completely uncharacteristic of GD. These complaints have taken the form of "CCP! Fix your Matchmaking!" or "Let's go back to the old matchmaking CCP!". These forum posts are so puzzling to me because, as every DUST forum-goer knows, we did not have a trace of matchmaking prior to Rattati's matchmaking system. Additionally, it is common knowledge that no matchmaker in the world can balance <2000 players by skill, and that low PCU counts are the biggest factor in low match quality. But, as mentioned earlier, this is all common knowledge. Has there been some recent revelation that I have missed? Please PM me in-game If you, or anyone you know, can explain how this common knowledge has somehow been forgotten by our normally intellectually critical DUSTers. patronising little *****, you expect reasonable and thought-out responses? no, you're going to get attacked. >>>YouTube!<<<
Vicious Minotaur 2	Posted - 2015.10.04 20:46:00 - [4] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: ... Over the past couple of months, I have seen our wonderful, logical, and emotionally reasonable home that is General Discussion become flooded with complaining completely uncharacteristic of GD. ... I am a minotaur. Beware my poop.
jane stalin free dropships for newbs 459	Posted - 2015.10.04 22:16:00 - [5] - Quote Jesus H Christ could not fix match making The player based is simply insane If you give them a fair fight most would leave People want easy wins and they want close competitive games. People feel entitled to win because they are good players and they want close competitive games. People feel entitled to win because they have squadded up and they work as team and they want close competitive games. Lots of people preach "fight people better than you to improve , git gud" when it is very clear that nobody practices this and anyone who believes it is doing something else.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.04 22:32:00 - [6] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Good afternoon (EST) GD, Over the past couple of months, I have seen our wonderful, logical, and emotionally reasonable home that is General Discussion become flooded with complaining completely uncharacteristic of GD. These complaints have taken the form of "CCP! Fix your Matchmaking!" or "Let's go back to the old matchmaking CCP!". These forum posts are so puzzling to me because, as every DUST forum-goer knows, we did not have a trace of matchmaking prior to Rattati's matchmaking system. Additionally, it is common knowledge that no matchmaker in the world can balance <2000 players by skill, and that low PCU counts are the biggest factor in low match quality. But, as mentioned earlier, this is all common knowledge. Has there been some recent revelation that I have missed? Please PM me in-game If you, or anyone you know, can explain how this common knowledge has somehow been forgotten by our normally intellectually critical DUSTers. You're not completely wrong, but you are ignoring some simple facts.. - Meta Locks would allow vets+noobs to game together equally (inb4 some sherlock realises the vet has an advantage) But, this is what we get anyway, except the Vet has Proto + Core skills and the noob can't fit a Militia suit - Solo queue ambush - 8v8 Dom (reduced numbers allows teams to be closer to equal skill) Sure with ~2000 Players there are limitations, just please don't justify doing NOTHING. SOONtm
Piercing Serenity Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 1	Posted - 2015.10.05 05:53:00 - [7] - Quote For the record, I was being intentionally sarcastic. I don't think that we should just twiddle our thumbs or anything. It was just annoying to see so many threads complaining about fixing matchmaking when matchmaking is already "fixed" by existing. To answer the suggestions posed earlier: Metalocking fixes nothing, in my opinion. I think what we would see is people come up with an optimal Mlt, Std, and Adv suits, which would be tied to SP, and we would have Mlt, Std, and Adv stomping happen instead. For example, the lower meta levels would be dominated by HMG Heavies, as that is the most powerful gear for low SP players. If you don't believe me, ask anyone who was around after the big SP wipe. Everyone skilled into heavies (which were deemed OP at the time) because they gave the most bang for their SP cost. Additionally, vehicles would dominate, because our current vehicles are balanced around proto AV, which wouldn't fit in a Mlt meta locked game. In theory, closing the SP gap between noobs and vets sounds attractive. However, the actual experience gap will always exist between noobs and vet. Knowing how to spend your SP correctly and how to read and respond to the meta, along with having teammate you communicate with, can't be solved by an metalevel lock. Solo queue ambush would probably be better than what we have now. At least everyone would know that there aren't any teams in the match, and that they had a relatively even playing field. Poor solution, in my opinion. Dom sucks because it's too easy to pitch a tent over the objective. Once a team gets nice and entrenched, it just becomes ridiculously hard to push them out - even in really balanced PC matches. I think a better solution for domination would be to put the point on a completely exposed hill or plateau, instead of the close quarters "shoot down from the high ground" approach that people currently have. "For people who don't really do S**T, ya'll really doing the most" Lv. 1 Forum Warrior
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.10.05 08:53:00 - [8] - Quote jane stalin wrote: Jesus H Christ could not fix match making The player based is simply insane If you give them a fair fight most would leave People want easy wins and they want close competitive games. People feel entitled to win because they are good players and they want close competitive games. People feel entitled to win because they have squadded up and they work as team and they want close competitive games. Lots of people preach "fight people better than you to improve , git gud" when it is very clear that nobody practices this and anyone who believes it is doing something else. ^ The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.05 09:18:00 - [9] - Quote I hate the argument against MetaLocks "Someone may find the optimal slaying fits to stay under Meta lock" How can this be any worse than a guy with 1-10mil SP having to fight a 50mil+ vet in Proto ... Considering I can now take a Ghalags Bolt Pistol and run about gaining 36 kills in a pub match.. (and I'm a scrub, look at the actual slayers) Not only am I surprised anyone has complained about Metalocks being abusable.. but the fact it has been the same argument against it forever.... Do people like using Proto against Starter fits?? damn right they do, so REMOVE IT. Unless CCP want this game to fall further down the drain, MetaLocked Pub Contracts are needed. *Inb4 I paid cash money boosters to get my shiznit "GTFO of Pubs and go play FW/PC then" There is no justification for not having Meta restrictions, that is not complete bullcrap.. to complain that a guy may make an optimal adv suit Vs the current min-maxed Officer suits in Pubs is going to have a worse effect is madness. Yes, CCP finally added a potential Matchmaking system.. you may just be having a poke at the Forums rergarding the many posts about it.. but there's a reason for that, the state of battles is well below CCP's incredilbly poor standards. SOONtm
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.10.05 09:24:00 - [10] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: I hate the argument against MetaLocks "Someone may find the optimal slaying fits to stay under Meta lock" How can this be any worse than a guy with 1-10mil SP having to fight a 50mil+ vet in Proto ... Considering I can now take a Ghalags Bolt Pistol and run about gaining 36 kills in a pub match.. (and I'm a scrub, look at the actual slayers) Not only am I surprised anyone has complained about Metalocks being abusable.. but the fact it has been the same argument against it forever.... Do people like using Proto against Starter fits?? damn right they do, so REMOVE IT. Unless CCP want this game to fall further down the drain, MetaLocked Pub Contracts are needed. *Inb4 I paid cash money boosters to get my shiznit "GTFO of Pubs and go play FW/PC then" There is no justification for not having Meta restrictions, that is not complete bullcrap.. to complain that a guy may make an optimal adv suit Vs the current min-maxed Officer suits in Pubs is going to have a worse effect is madness. Yes, CCP finally added a potential Matchmaking system.. you may just be having a poke at the Forums rergarding the many posts about it.. but there's a reason for that, the state of battles is well below CCP's incredilbly poor standards. Can you name even on undeniable benefit from meta locks? Higher SP players still have much higher benefit. Squads can still stomp the crap out of randoms. The divided player base becomes FAR more divided. Newbies would decide to hop up meta to try to show off their new pro suit and get SMASHED never wanting to back. Payouts for newbies in lower matches would be absolute trash. Honestly, I do not see one single benefit. The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.

Mortishai Belmont G.L.O.R.Y 1	Posted - 2015.10.05 09:28:00 - [11] - Quote Honestly things seemed more even when it was done at random. Also, I would rather be screwed by fate then CCP screwing me intentionally. The C.E.O. of G.L.O.R.Y, (~..)~ Now on Youtube ~(..~)
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 3	Posted - 2015.10.05 09:37:00 - [12] - Quote I'm very much in favour meta locks and have been for a very long time. I know the pro's and cons for the concept and yes the Vets with their skill bonuses will still have an advantage but it won't be multiplied by better equipment. I'd even go further and have a mode with standard fits and no skill bonuses, make it all about innate player skill. CPM 1&2 Member CEO of DUST University
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.10.05 09:40:00 - [13] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: I'm very much in favour meta locks and have been for a very long time. I know the pro's and cons for the concept and yes the Vets with their skill bonuses will still have an advantage but it won't be multiplied by better equipment. I'd even go further and have a mode with standard fits and no skill bonuses, make it all about innate player skill. What about the terrible payouts that would come of it? What about division of the player base? I only ask because I do not see any pros really so I am curious to try to eliminate some of the cons I see. The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 3	Posted - 2015.10.05 12:21:00 - [14] - Quote Payouts would be smaller but as a result of the newer players not having to face off against proto users, they'll not likely die as much so they'll not be spending as much to keep up. Also if it were locked to the free starter fits only (which still have a small ISK salvage value) they'll make a profit regardless. As to division of player base, I've always found that a somewhat spurious argument myself because it places false limits on potential choices for players. If the total player base was just 2000 players then I'd likely agree with it. However the player base is considerably larger than the average 2.5k concurrent that many like to claim is the total player base. CCP Rattati did recently give the CPM updated numbers for unique monthly logins and regular players (NDA unfortunately but I'll push to get them published if possible). Knowing those figures, I'm not unduly concerned yet by division of players. But I'll be keeping an eye on it. I personally am more concerned about improving the NPE and helping new players ease into the game better. The games poor NPE and failure to give some protection to its new players has a greater detrimental effect on player retention and the player base growth than any possible division of that base into different game modes. And should the game move to a new format, I'd expect the resulting bump in the player base numbers to render any division concerns as moot. CPM 1&2 Member CEO of DUST University
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 822	Posted - 2015.10.05 12:41:00 - [15] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Payouts would be smaller but as a result of the newer players not having to face off against proto users, they'll not likely die as much so they'll not be spending as much to keep up. Also if it were locked to the free starter fits only (which still have a small ISK salvage value) they'll make a profit regardless. As to division of player base, I've always found that a somewhat spurious argument myself because it places false limits on potential choices for players. If the total player base was just 2000 players then I'd likely agree with it. However the player base is considerably larger than the average 2.5k concurrent that many like to claim is the total player base. CCP Rattati did recently give the CPM updated numbers for unique monthly logins and regular players (NDA unfortunately but I'll push to get them published if possible). Knowing those figures, I'm not unduly concerned yet by division of players. But I'll be keeping an eye on it. I personally am more concerned about improving the NPE and helping new players ease into the game better. The games poor NPE and failure to give some protection to its new players has a greater detrimental effect on player retention and the player base growth than any possible division of that base into different game modes. And should the game move to a new format, I'd expect the resulting bump in the player base numbers to render any division concerns as moot. I made a decent ( I thought ) suggestion on this here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2982051#post2982051 Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Count- -Crotchula TasteTheTamsen 1	Posted - 2015.10.05 12:44:00 - [16] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: For the record, I was being intentionally sarcastic. I don't think that we should just twiddle our thumbs or anything. It was just annoying to see so many threads complaining about fixing matchmaking when matchmaking is already "fixed" by existing. To answer the suggestions posed earlier: Metalocking fixes nothing, in my opinion. I think what we would see is people come up with an optimal Mlt, Std, and Adv suits, which would be tied to SP, and we would have Mlt, Std, and Adv stomping happen instead. For example, the lower meta levels would be dominated by HMG Heavies, as that is the most powerful gear for low SP players. If you don't believe me, ask anyone who was around after the big SP wipe. Everyone skilled into heavies (which were deemed OP at the time) because they gave the most bang for their SP cost. Additionally, vehicles would dominate, because our current vehicles are balanced around proto AV, which wouldn't fit in a Mlt meta locked game. In theory, closing the SP gap between noobs and vets sounds attractive. However, the actual experience gap will always exist between noobs and vet. Knowing how to spend your SP correctly and how to read and respond to the meta, along with having teammate you communicate with, can't be solved by an metalevel lock. Solo queue ambush would probably be better than what we have now. At least everyone would know that there aren't any teams in the match, and that they had a relatively even playing field. Poor solution, in my opinion. Dom sucks because it's too easy to pitch a tent over the objective. Once a team gets nice and entrenched, it just becomes ridiculously hard to push them out - even in really balanced PC matches. I think a better solution for domination would be to put the point on a completely exposed hill or plateau, instead of the close quarters "shoot down from the high ground" approach that people currently have. thats' more like it >>>YouTube!<<<
Piercing Serenity Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 1	Posted - 2015.10.05 14:32:00 - [17] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: I hate the argument against MetaLocks "Someone may find the optimal slaying fits to stay under Meta lock" How can this be any worse than a guy with 1-10mil SP having to fight a 50mil+ vet in Proto ... Considering I can now take a Ghalags Bolt Pistol and run about gaining 36 kills in a pub match.. (and I'm a scrub, look at the actual slayers) Not only am I surprised anyone has complained about Metalocks being abusable.. but the fact it has been the same argument against it forever.... Do people like using Proto against Starter fits?? damn right they do, so REMOVE IT. Unless CCP want this game to fall further down the drain, MetaLocked Pub Contracts are needed. Inb4 I paid cash money boosters to get my shiznit "GTFO of Pubs and go play FW/PC then" There is no justification for not having Meta restrictions, that is not complete bullcrap.. to complain that a guy may make an optimal adv suit Vs the current min-maxed Officer suits in Pubs is going to have a worse effect is madness. Yes, CCP finally added a potential Matchmaking system.. you may just be having a poke at the Forums rergarding the many posts about it.. but there's a reason for that, the state of battles is well below CCP's incredilbly poor standards. I guess that my argument is: "Implementing Metalocking will not be worth the DEV time it costs". I agree with you in that a min-maxed Adv suit could not be worse* than the min-maxed Proto suits that we currently have. However, its only marginally better. Ultimately, there are just more efficient options - like figuring out a better way to measure a players' "grit" in-match and reward him based on that - with respect to Dev time to payoff "For people who don't really do S**T, ya'll really doing the most" Lv. 1 Forum Warrior
Piercing Serenity Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 1	Posted - 2015.10.05 14:44:00 - [18] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Payouts would be smaller but as a result of the newer players not having to face off against proto users, they'll not likely die as much so they'll not be spending as much to keep up. Also if it were locked to the free starter fits only (which still have a small ISK salvage value) they'll make a profit regardless. I agree with this, as written. However, how would you respond to concerns of unbalanced meta shifts? One example would be that low meta level matches would be dominated by heavies due to the huge advantage that having all that base health has at lower levels. You were here when we had our SP wiped - everyone was QQing about heavies because - at low SP values - they were just markedly stronger than slayer suits. A second example would be a big shift towards vehicles, both due to the vehicles acting like a second, larger dropsuit and the fact that our vehicles are balanced around proto weaponry. I am genuinely asking you if you think that these issues would not be a problem. Kevall Longstride wrote: As to division of player base, I've always found that a somewhat spurious argument myself because it places false limits on potential choices for players. If the total player base was just 2000 players then I'd likely agree with it. However the player base is considerably larger than the average 2.5k concurrent that many like to claim is the total player base. CCP Rattati did recently give the CPM updated numbers for unique monthly logins and regular players (NDA unfortunately but I'll push to get them published if possible). Knowing those figures, I'm not unduly concerned yet by division of players. But I'll be keeping an eye on it. This is an unfair argument. I understand that you are limited in what you can say, and why you are limited. However, this is a "take my word for it" kind of point, and the player base either has to agree with you or not. We don't have the access to info that you do. Kevall Longstride wrote: I personally am more concerned about improving the NPE and helping new players ease into the game better. The games poor NPE and failure to give some protection to its new players has a greater detrimental effect on player retention and the player base growth than any possible division of that base into different game modes. And should the game move to a new format, I'd expect the resulting bump in the player base numbers to render any division concerns as moot. See above. No one has any idea if the game is getting ported, so we can't reasonably make an argument on the basis of "If we move, the change would make any division concerns moot". "For people who don't really do S**T, ya'll really doing the most" Lv. 1 Forum Warrior
Avallo Kantor 894	Posted - 2015.10.05 15:06:00 - [19] - Quote As a side story I was recently able to get my (youngest) sister's boyfriend to try out DUST 514. I showed him the ropes, and walked him through a match showing him how to play as well as helping him set up a few fittings. (He seems to prefer knives for... some reason) In the 3 hours of play he was able to get out of the academy and play against "regular matches" where the last match we played (at which point we stopped because none of us can play FPS games straight for that long) was a complete stomp where we encountered multiple officer suits, and some weapons (on both sides) with officer weapons. For the record this character had not yet earned enough SP to even unlock the armor + shield hp skills (the one that provide +5% to health) to max. These are skills I normally have new players skill into first, as well as some skills into the various fitting skills. "Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.05 17:10:00 - [20] - Quote ONE UNDENIABLE BENEFIT TO METALOCKS. - Battles with 32 players on the closest to even footing ever seen in Dust514 gameplay There is nothing in a metalock that is any worse than what we have right now, I am not suggesting we seperate anything.. just simply add a neon sign on Public Contracts "Proto tryhards not allowed" I'm not asking for splitting the playerbase.. simply have the casual contracts restricted to casual fittings. SOONtm



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