DUST Search - [CPM Feedback] Serious Concerns & Call to Arms

Adipem Nothi wrote:

CPM Feedback Thread wrote:

This thread will have a limited duration to encourage feedback in a timely manner and WILL be closed down if it becomes derailed.

Two CPM feedback threads on shields were opened and closed in a span of only ~3 days. Here we are again.

These narrow, seemingly arbitrary windows serve to restrict Community feedback, and they are sending the wrong signals to the playerbase. If it is a goal of CPM to promote Community feedback, why confine the Community's opportunity to offer feedback to such narrow timeframes?

Of greater concern, why would CPM threaten to cut off feedback in an official feedback thread on account of what one representative may or may not arbitrarily deem to be derailment? Under what set of circumstances could that be reasonable, much less practicable? Have we not accounted for the possibility of troll or intentional derailment?

If nothing else, we should consider how precedent might affect us down the road. What might future CPM Feedback threads look like if CPM3 or CPM4 were not as ... judicious in their dealings as their predecessors? Might 3-day, official feedback windows be further restricted to 2 days? Or even 1?

To CPM:
I strongly urge the CPM to check themselves and put these shenanigans to rest. CPM2 was not elected to introduce the tools of fascism to the forums, and CPM2 is not in any position to wield such tools effectively. Attempts to do so will succeed only in damaging DUST and detracting from those things which makes these Forums uniquely great: the earnest participation, interest and involvement of the Community. Keeping us involved keeps us invested; suppressing our involvement will assuredly drive us away. You may not need our involvement and investment, but I would humbly remind you that DUST very likely does.

To CCP:
I'm posting these concerns -- at high risk of moderation, I'm sure -- in hopes of protecting something I've come to appreciate as truly special. These DUST Forums and the Community here gathered have their flaws, but they stand head-and-shoulders above everything else out there. Nothing else compares. I believe you have something truly unique and successful happening here, and I'm proud to be a part of it. I'd humbly encourage you to protect those things which keep these Forums and Community Feedback alive and well.

To the Community:
Don't let yourselves be bullied. Recognize suppression for what it is. Call it out and shut it down. Don't let CPM attempt to restrict, circumvent or arbitrarily silence your right as a player to offer feedback; if you let them get away with it now, they'll always get away with it. Remember that CPM are here to represent the Community, not to replace it, and certainly not to rule over it.

To Aeon Amadi:
You just so happen to be the guy holding the gun. These concerns aren't about you; they're about precedent. I hope you're able to understand.

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mollerz 7	Posted - 2015.09.30 07:03:00 - [1] - Quote Breakin stuff right now
Aeon Amadi 12	Posted - 2015.09.30 07:03:00 - [2] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: To Aeon Amadi: You just so happen to be the guy holding the gun. These concerns aren't about you; they're about precedent. I hope you're able to understand. Well, I would, but your very next post sort of betrays that lol. Like, it isn't even about the CPM, the shield threads, or anything necessarily wrong with them. It was my "history of being wrong", the fact that I posted the threads, and the fact that I had them closed down when it stopped being about shields and started being about my history of being wrong The concerns aren't about me it's the precedent that I know when the usefulness of a feedback thread has run it's course. Geeeeenerally when it stops talking about shields and starts talking about the history of the poster. I mean, couldn't possibly have been more derailed than if you put a buffalo on the tracks and started a picnic, lol. But no hard feelings. EDIT: Which is hilarious, when you think about it, because the topic transitioning to me being wrong all the time (even in this thread) doesn't acknowledge that there are six other CPM representatives who collaborated their thoughts and signed off on the project. It's sort of insulting to them, really. I wouldn't even be bothered by it if it was solely my idea because I can take the criticism but when you deliberately fail to acknowledge the rest of the CPM... eh. Kinda rude =\ Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog Skype: nomistrav
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.09.30 07:06:00 - [3] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: To Aeon Amadi: You just so happen to be the guy holding the gun. These concerns aren't about you; they're about precedent. I hope you're able to understand. Well, I would, but your very next post sort of betrays that lol. Like, it isn't even about the CPM, the shield threads, or anything necessarily wrong with them. It was my "history of being wrong", the fact that I posted the threads, and the fact that I had them closed down when it stopped being about shields and started being about my history of being wrong The concerns aren't about me it's the precedent that I know when the usefulness of a feedback thread has run it's course. Geeeeenerally when it stops talking about shields and starts talking about the history of the poster. I mean, couldn't possibly have been more derailed than if you put a buffalo on the tracks and started a picnic, lol. But no hard feelings. Like I said, talk to Breakin. If I had super moderator powers, I would've removed his derailment rather than respond to it. But alas. Points in the OP pre-derailment remain. The threats and the time limits stand only to harm the feedback process between Community and CPM. I hope you reconsider their use.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.30 07:08:00 - [4] - Quote mollerz wrote: [quote=Breakin Stuff] That is a lot of huffing and puffing man. Do you not think it is absurd to have community feedback for an issue locked down to a short matter of time before closing down feedback? That won't work in any facet of civilization so why would it be a good idea for a gaming community? What about post feedback for changes? wouldn't it be logical to keep it all in one thread? Already stated how I prefer to collect input. Past that I really don't care how Aeon handles his threads. I'm not him, he's not me, I have a different time/tolerance level than he does for shtposting and derails. I'm an acknowledged troll/shtposter/jackass/etc. so I feel somewhat obligated to be a bit more forgiving of the behavior. Besides, some of the things people crap out are funny as hell. But as far as feedback posts, everyone has a threshold of information overload or general tolerance for individual insanity or just to the point where things become so scattered that they lose focus on the original point. The question is, where does that point land? it's certainly not the same for everything. As I said before, I'm neither advocating for, nor defending Aeon's methods of data collection. I just don't feel that methodology really works for me. I also keep in mind that the posting here on the forums, while often useful is a TINY cross-section of the community overall. As I said when I went on the "campaign trail," I can't promise to be nicer (it'd be a lie), but wherever possible I prefer to be open and all cards on the table as much as the NDA allows. As to my huffing and puffing as you put it. Adipem's points he wants to get across are rarely things I take offense to. His methods of presentation, level of dismissive reaction to VALID and PROVEN opposing viewpoints, and what I percieve to be passive-aggressive, are ENTIRELY my problem with him and his "debate." I'll admit. I am an ahole. I'm comfortable with that. I simply strive to be an HONEST ahole, because I find that there's really very little value in deception. So I'm not claiming the high ground. I come off as an arrogant, snarky know-it-all without necessarily intending to. It's a fault. It's mine, though, and I will try to push through it. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.30 07:09:00 - [5] - Quote mollerz wrote: Breakin stuff right now I like that. I'm saving it for later. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Aeon Amadi 12	Posted - 2015.09.30 07:15:00 - [6] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: To Aeon Amadi: You just so happen to be the guy holding the gun. These concerns aren't about you; they're about precedent. I hope you're able to understand. Well, I would, but your very next post sort of betrays that lol. Like, it isn't even about the CPM, the shield threads, or anything necessarily wrong with them. It was my "history of being wrong", the fact that I posted the threads, and the fact that I had them closed down when it stopped being about shields and started being about my history of being wrong The concerns aren't about me it's the precedent that I know when the usefulness of a feedback thread has run it's course. Geeeeenerally when it stops talking about shields and starts talking about the history of the poster. I mean, couldn't possibly have been more derailed than if you put a buffalo on the tracks and started a picnic, lol. But no hard feelings. Like I said, talk to Breakin. If I had super moderator powers, I would've removed his derailment rather than respond to it. But alas. Points in the OP pre-derailment remain. The threats and the time limits stand only to harm the feedback process between Community and CPM. I hope you reconsider their use. Nah. The limited duration for feedback was a circumstance of a deadline that needed to be met that we were very, very keen on making. When the threads got derailed, we tried to bring them back on track. It was successful for a little while but they got derailed again so we called it and cut the cord. It's at this point I'm going to direct your attention to this post specifically, because it applies to this situation far more than you realize: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6057444#post6057444 Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog Skype: nomistrav
benandjerrys Vader's-Fist The Empire of New Eden 825	Posted - 2015.09.30 07:20:00 - [7] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: mollerz wrote: Breakin stuff right now I like that. I'm saving it for later. http://kocosports.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/vince-opinions-meme-BIG.jpg Cpm be like ^ ONE UNIVERSE//ONE WAR Support Dust/EvE cross content Advisor Vader's-Fist
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.30 07:22:00 - [8] - Quote benandjerrys wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: mollerz wrote: Breakin stuff right now I like that. I'm saving it for later. http://kocosports.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/vince-opinions-meme-BIG.jpg Cpm be like ^ Less creative, not as funny, I give it a 2/10. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Vesta Opalus Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance 1	Posted - 2015.09.30 07:26:00 - [9] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: CPM Feedback Thread wrote: This thread will have a limited duration to encourage feedback in a timely manner and WILL be closed down if it becomes derailed. Two CPM feedback threads on shields were opened and closed in a span of only ~3 days. Here we are again. These narrow, seemingly arbitrary windows serve to restrict Community feedback, and they are sending the wrong signals to the playerbase. If it is a goal of CPM to promote Community feedback, why confine the Community's opportunity to offer feedback to such narrow timeframes? Of greater concern, why would CPM threaten to cut off feedback in an official feedback thread on account of what one representative may or may not arbitrarily deem to be derailment? Under what set of circumstances could that be reasonable, much less practicable? Have we not accounted for the possibility of troll or intentional derailment? If nothing else, we should consider how precedent might affect us down the road. What might future CPM Feedback threads look like if CPM3 or CPM4 were not as ... judicious in their dealings as their predecessors? Might 3-day, official feedback windows be further restricted to 2 days? Or even 1? To CPM: I strongly urge the CPM to check themselves and put these shenanigans to rest. CPM2 was not elected to introduce the tools of fascism to the forums, and CPM2 is not in any position to wield such tools effectively. Attempts to do so will succeed only in damaging DUST and detracting from those things which makes these Forums uniquely great: the earnest participation, interest and involvement of the Community. Keeping us involved keeps us invested; suppressing our involvement will assuredly drive us away. You may not need our involvement and investment, but I would humbly remind you that DUST very likely does. To CCP: I'm posting these concerns -- at high risk of moderation, I'm sure -- in hopes of protecting something I've come to appreciate as truly special. These DUST Forums and the Community here gathered have their flaws, but they stand head-and-shoulders above everything else out there. Nothing else compares. I believe you have something truly unique and successful happening here, and I'm proud to be a part of it. I'd humbly encourage you to protect those things which keep these Forums and Community Feedback alive and well. To the Community: Don't let yourselves be bullied. Recognize suppression for what it is. Call it out and shut it down. Don't let CPM attempt to restrict, circumvent or arbitrarily silence your right as a player to offer feedback; if you let them get away with it now, they'll always get away with it. Remember that CPM are here to represent the Community, not to replace it, and certainly not to rule over it. To Aeon Amadi: You just so happen to be the guy holding the gun. These concerns aren't about you; they're about precedent. I hope you're able to understand. Concentrating feedback into a single thread with a single topic for a certain time period ensures you have a centralized location to talk about stuff and the CPMs can concentrate on a single thread instead of however many spam threads might be running at the time. Im sure theres other ways to do things but there are Reasons to do stuff as they are doing. In the meantime theres nothing stopping everyone from spamming whatever crap they want where ever they want it just like normal.
Aeon Amadi 12	Posted - 2015.09.30 07:36:00 - [10] - Quote Here's the thing. We're providing you an opportunity to speak your mind about the material that is up for change - our projects that we are intent on fixing. We made rapid iterations on those projects (hence the two threads which saw massive changes based on what feedback we received despite all the chaos) and probably would have done a lot better job if the community had focused more on constructive feedback than the nuance of how it was illustrated, who posted it, etc. So when we say, "What do you think of this?" and the responses are, "Well, let's take a look at who it's coming from, how long we're going to be talking about it, why we're talking about it, etc" - that doesn't help us at all. In fact it only serves to gridlock progression and changes because we have to go out of our way to try and get everyone back on track and talk about the things we need them to. We simply do not have the time to deal with it. So we can spend three to four pages talking about the extraneous things that have nothing to do with the proposal or feedback in question and simply not have the changes/feature passed (likely the reason shields were never iterated on through most of the last year), or we can focus and actually get some work done. That decision is largely up to you guys but I'm just letting you know now that complaints over the duration with which we can/will receive feedback is part of that extraneous discussion. I'm not going to apologize for focusing on what we need to achieve progress and if the community wants to condemn me for not apologizing, fine by me, long as the work gets done and the ball gets rolling. I'll be the bad guy if it means we can get this game moving and that's probably why I was elected in the first place. We can either get a change to go through in a hotfix in several days, several weeks, or several months - that duration depends largely on the willingness to engage the discussions. Alternatively, we can do the Uprising thing and just never iterate at all. Yes, the windows for feedback are limited. Yes, we're going to cut the cord if it starts to get derailed and loses focus. Yes, we do want your involvement, but with an emphasis on constructive feedback. Obviously I don't speak for the entire CPM but that's just the way things are probably going to be, honestly. Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog Skype: nomistrav

benandjerrys Vader's-Fist The Empire of New Eden 825	Posted - 2015.09.30 08:11:00 - [11] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: benandjerrys wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: mollerz wrote: Breakin stuff right now I like that. I'm saving it for later. http://kocosports.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/vince-opinions-meme-BIG.jpg Cpm be like ^ Less creative, not as funny, I give it a 2/10. http://www.wrestlenewz.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/hitman-meme.jpg And with that. Goodnight. ONE UNIVERSE//ONE WAR Support Dust/EvE cross content Advisor Vader's-Fist
Arkena Wyrnspire Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 27	Posted - 2015.09.30 13:56:00 - [12] - Quote This thread makes for entertaining reading with afternoon tea and biscuits. Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu
Asad Thahab-Jabal Incorruptibles 250	Posted - 2015.09.30 14:25:00 - [13] - Quote If you want someone to do something in a timely manner, you give them a deadline. If you want someone to focus on the task, you keep them on track (prevent derailing). This is not fascism, OP. This is just simple people management skill. CPM2 hasn't done anything wrong in my eyes. Ripley Riley is on safari until Oct 9th. I will represent him until he returns.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.09.30 14:28:00 - [14] - Quote Putting a 3-day time limit on feedback limits discourse and excludes from the feedback process would-be participants who don't check the forums on a daily basis. Presuming a thread has "run its course" and locking it at first sign of derailment does the same. We elected CPM to represent us; not to preside over kangaroo courts. Think about it. Judges don't cut trial short and rule from the hip every time someone in a courtroom passes gas. People are going to be disruptive, and those people should be ignored rather than given the power to terminate a process.
Asad Thahab-Jabal Incorruptibles 250	Posted - 2015.09.30 14:30:00 - [15] - Quote CPM2 doesn't have full on moderator powers, Adipem. If they did they could just ban/remove the posts that are disruptive like a judge holds someone in contempt for shitting on the witness mid-questioning. Ripley Riley is on safari until Oct 9th. I will represent him until he returns.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.09.30 14:34:00 - [16] - Quote So they should deal with the troublemakers just like everyone else has to. Do we really want CPM shutting down feedback threads at the very first whiff of trouble? Hate to bring it back up, but take this instance, for example. An arguably bad idea is proposed by CPM and is immediately challenged with serious concerns. Assume for the sake of argument that instead of posting a serious concern, someone farted. An then another. Aeon scrambles to close the feedback window. We're stuck with an arguably bad idea and no opportunity to challenge it. "Oh well. Feedback window's closed. You all should've behaved yourselves." This is a house of cards, gentlemen.
Asad Thahab-Jabal Incorruptibles 250	Posted - 2015.09.30 14:38:00 - [17] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: So they should deal with the troublemakers just like everyone else has to. Do we really want CPM shutting down feedback threads at the very first sign of trouble? If people can't stay on task then the CPM should warn them. If they continue to derail then CPM should report the offending names. If nothing can be done to stop the derailment at that point then yes, they should lock the thread. Perhaps open it again a few days later. Maybe after a few threads get locked in this way the knobs who keep derailing the threads will either be banned or have learned to shut their traps. Ripley Riley is on safari until Oct 9th. I will represent him until he returns.
Krixus Flux Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 975	Posted - 2015.09.30 14:46:00 - [18] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: This thread makes for entertaining reading with afternoon tea and biscuits. I invite you to do it the American way... Splash of whiskey in the ol' joe It makes the thread even more hilarious Saying what's on people's minds
Soraya Xel Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 6	Posted - 2015.09.30 14:47:00 - [19] - Quote I have not been super impressed by some of how feedback has been handled so far. Hopefully this is just a matter of a fresh team working on refining their process. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
noob cavman Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 3	Posted - 2015.09.30 14:56:00 - [20] - Quote damn high Ceylon tea is the perfect beverage to this amount of bs The most abusive northerner. currently reading clockwork vampires by andy remic. A terra bad/awesome author

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.09.30 14:58:00 - [21] - Quote Asad Thahab-Jabal wrote: If people can't stay on task then the CPM should warn them. If they continue to derail then CPM should report the offending names. Couldn't agree more. If they want to moderate, they should be encouraged to do it right. Closing official feedback windows on account of one or two farts from one or two bad apples is a disservice to the rest of us. The practice is as untenable as it is suspect. The potential for abuse by all sides is staggering.
benandjerrys Vader's-Fist The Empire of New Eden 825	Posted - 2015.09.30 14:59:00 - [22] - Quote Cpm is truly getting way too much flak without a blue dev tag to guide this along. ONE UNIVERSE//ONE WAR Support Dust/EvE cross content Advisor Vader's-Fist
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.09.30 15:11:00 - [23] - Quote Sooo....what're we talking about? Is it new content? Will it show up on scans/be reppable/have a broken RoF? Will it port to PS4 soon(tm)? munches popcorn Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
501st Headstrong Inner.Hell 2	Posted - 2015.09.30 15:27:00 - [24] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I have not been super impressed by some of how feedback has been handled so far. Hopefully this is just a matter of a fresh team working on refining their process. Soraya your swarms are getting nerfed get over it already
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.09.30 15:59:00 - [25] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Points in the OP pre-derailment remain. The threats and the time limits stand only to harm the feedback process between Community and CPM. I hope you reconsider their use. Nah. The limited duration for feedback was a circumstance of a deadline that needed to be met that we were very, very keen on making. When the threads got derailed, we tried to bring them back on track. It was successful for a little while but they got derailed again so we called it and cut the cord. It's at this point I'm going to direct your attention to this post specifically, because it applies to this situation far more than you realize: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6057444#post6057444 Everyone can understand the need to meet a deadline. I'm not suggesting that CPM should not meet deadlines. I'm suggesting that CPM should not arbitrarily restrict and/or cut-off community feedback. In response to your second point, CCP Ytterbium is a senior game designer employed by CCP. He and his team very likely possess the special knowledge, training and expertise needed to get it right even if they opted "to cover our ears and just go straight for the initial designs we first thought of". The same cannot and should not said for members of CPM (past, present or future). Game Designers are professionals hired to design games. CPM are end users elected to represent other end users. These are very different positions with widely divergent degrees of requisite expertise and accountability. Is it unreasonable to expect that one might not behave like the other? Would it be unreasonable to be alarmed if they did?
Soraya Xel Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 6	Posted - 2015.09.30 16:23:00 - [26] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I have not been super impressed by some of how feedback has been handled so far. Hopefully this is just a matter of a fresh team working on refining their process. Soraya your swarms are getting nerfed get over it already This isn't necessarily limited to the fact that a hotfix concept has been pushed through that can likely be defined as "the least researched and worst handled" balance concept ever. (It doesn't really affect me personally, I haven't used swarms in years, they're useless as they are already.) It's a sign of a complete failure of CPM2 to ensure player feedback is appropriately addressed in this process. But it's a scary sign that feedback on the issue is being brushed off and disregarded both in public and in private, and from everything I can determine, no even cursory examination of performance statistics was done to justify the changes in this hotfix. Nobody has confirmed for me that any data was used whatsoever. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
501st Headstrong Inner.Hell 2	Posted - 2015.09.30 17:03:00 - [27] - Quote How are Swarms useless?????? Honestly are we playing 2 completely different games???
Soraya Xel Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 6	Posted - 2015.09.30 17:05:00 - [28] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: How are Swarms useless?????? Honestly are we playing 2 completely different games??? Basically, yes. You play a game where you don't die most matches, make a ton of money, and get a lot of kills, while being immune to all but one weapon in the game, effectively (the forge gun). Oh, and you can fly across the map in a matter of seconds. Meanwhile, swarm users play a game where it takes forever to get anywhere, all 16 members of the opposing team can kill them, and they can't even fire back. Because they can't shoot infantry, and the range isn't large enough for them to shoot the one thing they're meant to: dropships. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
501st Headstrong Inner.Hell 2	Posted - 2015.09.30 17:13:00 - [29] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: 501st Headstrong wrote: How are Swarms useless?????? Honestly are we playing 2 completely different games??? Basically, yes. You play a game where you don't die most matches, make a ton of money, and get a lot of kills, while being immune to all but one weapon in the game, effectively (the forge gun). Oh, and you can fly across the map in a matter of seconds. Meanwhile, swarm users play a game where it takes forever to get anywhere, all 16 members of the opposing team can kill them, and they can't even fire back. Because they can't shoot infantry, and the range isn't large enough for them to shoot the one thing they're meant to: dropships. First of all I'm not an ADS. I'm horrifically bad at it haha. I use swarms as well on my myriad of commandos. You can land 2 volleys of swarms on an ADS before they can get to around max speed with their AB (Don't have the math numbers in front of me atm) and they usually have to hover very low (under 50m) in order to see infantry and shoot them. I believe you are getting getting by hardened dropships, which is a valid tactic as those hardeners do run off. Exactly what did you do when you'd swarm? And for what purpose would you possibly need to lock onto an ADS or vehicle at 175m when an ADS can almost never see an infantry at that range. I try to see people at 100m and they look like black lines on the ground. 200m requires a sharper eye.
Soraya Xel Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 6	Posted - 2015.09.30 17:15:00 - [30] - Quote 501st, it's near impossible to kill a dropship before it gets 200m away. Even if it was stationary hovering above you when you first shoot at it. But again, this is irrelevant to the point: Feedback on the issue has been ignored, and we've seen no evidence any research was done in this whatsoever. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.



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