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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
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Posted - 2015.09.29 19:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
I kind of feel dumb never having realized this before.
The scrambler rifle receives FAR too much benefit from damage mods. No other weapon in the game has the ability to modify its own damage so it is something easily overlooked. A full charge on the scrambler rifle gives it a x4 multiplier. That means that a 7% damage mod effectively becomes a 28% boost from one module. This is precisely why the thing stays so effective against armor no matter what we do.
As some saw in the testing that Thaddeus and myself did there is always a damage multiplier meaning there is no instance where a damage mod only does 7%
The same issue applies to the constantly growing warbarge multipliers.
EDIT:
This also makes mod stacking wildly effective over all other weapons.
A normal weapon looks about like this with 3 mods stacked:
Individual bonuses: 7.00%, 6.08%, 3.99%, Total bonus: 18.04%
A fully charged ScR receives a benefit something like this:
28.00%, 24.34%, 15.98%, Total bonus: 84.58%
WOWOWOW
Enter warbarges and proficiency skills and there we have it.
The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
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LUGMOS
Corrosive Synergy
No Context
4
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Posted - 2015.09.29 19:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
O-O
I am the Anti-FoTM
Fear my Cal Assault and Amarr Scout!
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7th Son 7
Hakuna Matatah Inc
1
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Posted - 2015.09.29 19:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:I kind of feel dumb never having realized this before.
The scrambler rifle receives FAR too much benefit from damage mods. No other weapon in the game has the ability to modify its own damage so it is something easily overlooked. A full charge on the scrambler rifle gives it a x4 multiplier. That means that a 7% damage mod effectively becomes a 28% boost from one module. This is precisely why the thing stays so effective against armor no matter what we do.
As some saw in the testing that Thaddeus and myself did there is always a damage multiplier meaning there is no instance where a damage mod only does 7%
The same issue applies to the constantly growing warbarge multipliers.
Something so simple but it makes sense.
Only your complete and total awareness is needed, nothing else will do. ----- OSHO
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
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Posted - 2015.09.29 19:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
7th Son 7 wrote:deezy dabest wrote:I kind of feel dumb never having realized this before.
The scrambler rifle receives FAR too much benefit from damage mods. No other weapon in the game has the ability to modify its own damage so it is something easily overlooked. A full charge on the scrambler rifle gives it a x4 multiplier. That means that a 7% damage mod effectively becomes a 28% boost from one module. This is precisely why the thing stays so effective against armor no matter what we do.
As some saw in the testing that Thaddeus and myself did there is always a damage multiplier meaning there is no instance where a damage mod only does 7%
The same issue applies to the constantly growing warbarge multipliers. Something so simple but it makes sense.
Exactly why I felt dumb missing it. I stayed so focused on damage profiles being the issue that this went unchecked until I was making a spread sheet of fits to prove profile was the biggest issue. I'm not sure if that's a fail or a win.
The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.29 19:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:I kind of feel dumb never having realized this before.
The scrambler rifle receives FAR too much benefit from damage mods. No other weapon in the game has the ability to modify its own damage so it is something easily overlooked. A full charge on the scrambler rifle gives it a x4 multiplier. That means that a 7% damage mod effectively becomes a 28% boost from one module. This is precisely why the thing stays so effective against armor no matter what we do.
As some saw in the testing that Thaddeus and myself did there is always a damage multiplier meaning there is no instance where a damage mod only does 7%
The same issue applies to the constantly growing warbarge multipliers.
Interdasting. |
deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
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Posted - 2015.09.29 20:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
I am thinking on how to fix this and unfortunately the only thing that makes sense is to reduce the charge multiplier to negate this.
Why must uniqueness be a death sentence in this game?
How many of you would rather a 2x full charge multiplier over the nerf that is incoming?
The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
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Posted - 2015.09.29 21:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:
How many of you would rather a 2x full charge multiplier over the nerf that is incoming?
The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.29 22:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but no. The damage mod still does +7% damage, it just does +7% to the higher damaged charge shot.
This is not some kind of revelation, it's just that the charge shot does a lot of damage. |
StoneSmasher Drugga
Corrosive Synergy
No Context
182
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Posted - 2015.09.29 22:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Um no. It is the same percent just on a larger base. This is like saying weapon mods are broken on breach forge guns. The problem was large alpha damage and good sustained dps follow on. There was no trade off.
There is no evil greater than hyperbole.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
27
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Posted - 2015.09.29 22:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:
The scrambler rifle receives FAR too much benefit from damage mods. No other weapon in the game has the ability to modify its own damage so it is something easily overlooked. A full charge on the scrambler rifle gives it a x4 multiplier. That means that a 7% damage mod effectively becomes a 28% boost from one module.
This... is not how maths works.
If you damage mod a base SCR shot that is doing, for example, 100 damage (just an example) with a 7% damage mod, it will do 107 damage.
This is a 7% increase.
If you damage mod a charged SCR shot that is doing, for example, 400 damage, it will do 428 damage.
This is a 7% increase.
Regardless of the initial magnitude, the damage mod only has a 7% effect.
Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
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Posted - 2015.09.29 22:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but no. The damage mod still does +7% damage, it just does +7% to the higher damaged charge shot.
This is not some kind of revelation, it's just that the charge shot does a lot of damage.
Lets say 100 as base damage
100 * .07 = 107
107 * 4 = 428
400 * 1.07 = 428
See how that works? The fun of percentages.
The effective result of a 7% damage mod on a fully charged ScR is still 28% no matter how you try to look at it.
EDIT for Arkena.
I realize that but I am talking about the effective gain received from placing a damage mod on a scrambler rifle. Any other weapon ONLY receives 7% while the scrambler receives 28% from its base damage when added in with a full charge.
The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.29 22:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gets even more harebrained when you tie in Micro-Charging.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
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Posted - 2015.09.29 22:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Exactly my point. I even reviewed my videos from that testing to confirm a couple of things.
I made a separate thread for the actual poll on my proposed short term fix but here is the link.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1FDgNhu2BJ5waZgvLUXfgVgFBKYv3XY7VYqXgvWKQDJ4/viewform
Lets also remember that something we have heard many times from Rattati is that the charge shot and follow up is too effective.
When you consider the huge bonus a mod gets on the charge and the ensuing bonuses it all adds up to show exactly what he is saying.
The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
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StoneSmasher Drugga
Corrosive Synergy
No Context
182
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Posted - 2015.09.29 23:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
This is why we can't have nice things. Poor math. As has been explained, twice, 7% of a bigger number is a bigger number than 7% of a smaller number, to be sure, but its still 7%. This fuzzy math only steers us away from the real issue. The overheat nerf shows us the devs agree, its the combo of high alpha and sustained dps with no real drawback that was the problem. Scramblers were like a shotgun with a machine gun bolted on.
There is no evil greater than hyperbole.
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Baal Omniscient
Qualified Scrub
2
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Posted - 2015.09.30 00:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
I believe his point is that the 28 damage bump is 28% of the 100 base non-charged damage.
OP; Are you suggesting that it should only be 7% of base damage applied to the charged shot and not 7% of the total charged shot? I don't really get where you are trying to go with this.
Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
I GÖú Puppies
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
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Piercing Serenity
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.30 01:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
StoneSmasher Drugga wrote:This is why we can't have nice things. Poor math. As has been explained, twice, 7% of a bigger number is a bigger number than 7% of a smaller number, to be sure, but its still 7%. This fuzzy math only steers us away from the real issue. The overheat nerf shows us the devs agree, its the combo of high alpha and sustained dps with no real drawback that was the problem. Scramblers were like a shotgun with a machine gun bolted on.
Agreed. It is disingenuous to claim that ScR get a 28% damage boost from one damage mod, because that is not what is happening. ScR get a 400% (4x) damage boost from charging, and then get a normal 7% (0.07) damage boost of that charged shot from a damage mod.
Additionally, it's silly to say that "the scrambler receives 28% from its base damage when added in with a full charge" because you are conflating extra 7% damage boost to a charged shot to the base damage. You have two variables (Charge shot, damage mod) and no controls (constants).
A similarly poor analogy would be to compare the damage that a laser rifle with one damage mod does at the upper heat limit to the base damage of a rifle. By your "math", the laser rifle would get some ridiculously high bonus from a damage mod when compared to the base damage of another rifle.
"For people who don't really do S**T, ya'll really doing the most"
Lv. 1 Forum Warrior
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Fluffy Exterminatus
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
84
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Posted - 2015.09.30 01:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
Yeah all the turbo controller kids use it cause the charge shot is OP. lol... 7% is still 7% it might do 28 more damage with 4X multiplier but its still 7%. Shotgun with dam mod doesnt get 60% dam bonus because all the pellets hit.
Dont worry about it they all going to switch to ass gko with tac ar now.
CCP Rattati - Grand Dragon Wizard of the Gaylente Agenda
Touched by his noodly appendage
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Ateroith
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
136
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Posted - 2015.09.30 01:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:I kind of feel dumb never having realized this before.
The scrambler rifle receives FAR too much benefit from damage mods. No other weapon in the game has the ability to modify its own damage so it is something easily overlooked. A full charge on the scrambler rifle gives it a x4 multiplier. That means that a 7% damage mod effectively becomes a 28% boost from one module. This is precisely why the thing stays so effective against armor no matter what we do.
As some saw in the testing that Thaddeus and myself did there is always a damage multiplier meaning there is no instance where a damage mod only does 7%
The same issue applies to the constantly growing warbarge multipliers.
EDIT:
This also makes mod stacking wildly effective over all other weapons.
A normal weapon looks about like this with 3 mods stacked:
Individual bonuses: 7.00%, 6.08%, 3.99%, Total bonus: 18.04%
A fully charged ScR receives a benefit something like this:
28.00%, 24.34%, 15.98%, Total bonus: 84.58%
WOWOWOW
Enter warbarges and proficiency skills and there we have it.
Mein Fuhrer, Sieg Heil!
"...Rule #2 - Never start a fight. Rule #3 - Never lose one either." - Lee Child
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Forever ETC
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1
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Posted - 2015.09.30 02:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Fluffy Exterminatus wrote:Yeah all the turbo controller kids use it cause the charge shot is OP. lol... 7% is still 7% it might do 28 more damage with 4X multiplier but its still 7%. Shotgun with dam mod doesnt get 60% dam bonus because all the pellets hit.
Dont worry about it they all going to switch to ass gko with tac ar now.
You haven't met the ScR community then. Most of us have still been using the weapon despite all the nerfs.
AmarrFTW
"The Hero got his feelings hurt for 9 hp... "
Not For Sale- Sanders 2016
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IceShifter Childhaspawn
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
780
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Posted - 2015.09.30 06:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
This is by design (high alpha) which is why they are trying to fix it with the heat buff.
The rof weapons make up for it with... Rof.
Supposed to be a scale like
[high alpha/low rof] to [low alpha/high rof]
Thats why we have to think in terms of ttk.
The balance is broken when the kill is had after the third shot of an alpha (which occurs .5 seconds after the first hit)
No surprise that high alpha weapons are most popular given that we have limits on our hp. That huge first hit, even applying profiles, is still a huge freaking hit.
It's hard to beat up hundreds of armor piercing bullets using only your face...
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.30 07:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Also, doesn't the charge shot do x3.5 damage, not x4? |
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
462
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Posted - 2015.09.30 07:05:00 -
[22] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Also, doesn't the charge shot do x3.5 damage, not x4?
Data
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.30 07:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Deezy is skipping a logical step in his explanation here:
That of scale.
By his logic it's 28% of the base damage per shot, not 28% of the charged shot.
So three mods, after stacking penalties on a charged shot would provide 72.16% of a baseline (not a charged) shot when fired on full charge.
so if you just use his spitball math of a 100 point base shot and a x4 charge shot you'd get 472.16 damage on a full charge.
I see where his logic is going, he's just not explaining it particularly well.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.30 09:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Also, doesn't the charge shot do x3.5 damage, not x4? Data
*So 3.8x damage then?* edit <- oops got this wrong. Should be 4x.
I see the logic here too. It's just not the surprising result. |
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
462
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Posted - 2015.09.30 09:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Also, doesn't the charge shot do x3.5 damage, not x4? Data So 3.8x damage then? I see the logic here too. It's just not the surprising result.
Where are you getting the 3.8 from?
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.30 10:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Also, doesn't the charge shot do x3.5 damage, not x4? Data So 3.8x damage then? I see the logic here too. It's just not the surprising result. Where are you getting the 3.8 from?
Ooops, forgot to take into account the micro charge charge. Just looked at the multiplyer from the first 58 damage. Should have looked at the base of 54.
219 / 58 = 3.8
219 / 54.6 = 4
So yes, 4x is right. |
deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 04:16:00 -
[27] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Also, doesn't the charge shot do x3.5 damage, not x4? Data So 3.8x damage then? I see the logic here too. It's just not the surprising result. Where are you getting the 3.8 from? Ooops, forgot to take into account the micro charge charge. Just looked at the multiplyer from the first 58 damage. Should have looked at the base of 54. 219 / 58 = 3.8 219 / 54.6 = 4 So yes, 4x is right.
Yes myself and Thaddeus studied that VERY in depth when we did the data collection for that spread sheet. We were a bit shocked to find out it was a total of x4 when by all accounts before that it was believed to be 3.5.
I made a copy of the spreadsheet and added columns for 1, 2, and 3 damage mods multiplied by the actual damage done to armor. Scroll all the way to the right to see those columns.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rP783wR_YHtb0jGqWyRNqFly_DNyyUFJtAlgDg-sFsw/edit?usp=sharing
At just 80ms of micro charging with ONE damage mod the damage versus armor has reached the full base value of the ScR completely erasing what is suppose to be the primary drawback of this weapon.
With 2 damage mods the base microcharge damage at 40 ms has returned to the base damage value of the weapon 100% eliminating the -20%.
How many times has Rattati said the problem is the scrambler is too effective against armor?
The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
463
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Posted - 2015.10.01 05:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:So 3.8x damage then? I see the logic here too. It's just not the surprising result. Where are you getting the 3.8 from? Ooops, forgot to take into account the micro charge charge. Just looked at the multiplyer from the first 58 damage. Should have looked at the base of 54. 219 / 58 = 3.8 219 / 54.6 = 4 So yes, 4x is right. Yes myself and Thaddeus studied that VERY in depth when we did the data collection for that spread sheet. We were a bit shocked to find out it was a total of x4 when by all accounts before that it was believed to be 3.5. I made a copy of the spreadsheet and added columns for 1, 2, and 3 damage mods multiplied by the actual damage done to armor. Scroll all the way to the right to see those columns. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rP783wR_YHtb0jGqWyRNqFly_DNyyUFJtAlgDg-sFsw/edit?usp=sharingAt just 80ms of micro charging with ONE damage mod the damage versus armor has reached the full base value of the ScR completely erasing what is suppose to be the primary drawback of this weapon. With 2 damage mods the base microcharge damage at 40 ms has returned to the base damage value of the weapon 100% eliminating the -20%. How many times has Rattati said the problem is the scrambler is too effective against armor?
The Damage Profile isn't the primary drawback of the ScR, the Heat Buildup is. The problem with your line of reasoning, is that the shot will still be doing proportionally higher damage to shields as well, you seem to be trying to characterize it as magically no longer having its profile which isn't the case. Any weapon is capable of stacking damage mods and doing additional damage vs the buffer they are weaker to...while the ScR may be a unique case in that it builds up more damage as it charges, it also builds up additional heat...every point of damage you build up past your base damage to that buffer generates 3x the heat of the "normal" damage...after foxfour that will be 4x the heat. Part of the trouble when looking at Laser type weaponry in this game is that they have both heat and magazine capacity...which both function as hard DPS limiters, it's better to look at a heat cycle as a sort of magazine cycle on its own.
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
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Posted - 2015.10.01 06:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:
The Damage Profile isn't the primary drawback of the ScR, the Heat Buildup is. The problem with your line of reasoning, is that the shot will still be doing proportionally higher damage to shields as well, you seem to be trying to characterize it as magically no longer having its profile which isn't the case. Any weapon is capable of stacking damage mods and doing additional damage vs the buffer they are weaker to...while the ScR may be a unique case in that it builds up more damage as it charges, it also builds up additional heat...every point of damage you build up past your base damage to that buffer generates 3x the heat of the "normal" damage...after foxfour that will be 4x the heat. Part of the trouble when looking at Laser type weaponry in this game is that they have both heat and magazine capacity...which both function as hard DPS limiters, it's better to look at a heat cycle as a sort of magazine cycle on its own.
The issue is with proficiency, warbarge, and damage modifiers added to the profile you are talking over 150% damage before any charge is applied. The primary drawback first and fore most is that for all it gains against shields it is suppose to be less proficient against armor by a fairly big margin but that is being completely cancelled out by how other bonuses stack with the charge bonus.
The only thing we can really compare to is the combat rifle with its +15 / -15 profile. Overall almost any armor player would be glad to say it is OP while any shield player would say that it is not that bad. This is because its damage profile is working as intended.
The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
470
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Posted - 2015.10.01 06:21:00 -
[30] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:
The Damage Profile isn't the primary drawback of the ScR, the Heat Buildup is. The problem with your line of reasoning, is that the shot will still be doing proportionally higher damage to shields as well, you seem to be trying to characterize it as magically no longer having its profile which isn't the case. Any weapon is capable of stacking damage mods and doing additional damage vs the buffer they are weaker to...while the ScR may be a unique case in that it builds up more damage as it charges, it also builds up additional heat...every point of damage you build up past your base damage to that buffer generates 3x the heat of the "normal" damage...after foxfour that will be 4x the heat. Part of the trouble when looking at Laser type weaponry in this game is that they have both heat and magazine capacity...which both function as hard DPS limiters, it's better to look at a heat cycle as a sort of magazine cycle on its own.
The issue is with proficiency, warbarge, and damage modifiers added to the profile you are talking over 150% damage before any charge is applied. The primary drawback first and fore most is that for all it gains against shields it is suppose to be less proficient against armor by a fairly big margin but that is being completely cancelled out by how other bonuses stack with the charge bonus. The only thing we can really compare to is the combat rifle with its +15 / -15 profile. Overall almost any armor player would be glad to say it is OP while any shield player would say that it is not that bad. This is because its damage profile is working as intended.
Proficiency only mods the profile vs shields on the ScR...not against armor. And while staking 3 damage mods with Warbarge will negate the "negative" on the damage profile (doing a little more than 1x damage actually...1.0198x damage), you're still vs shields getting that massive 1.7592x Damage Multiplier...and regardless of what multipliers you add on past that, the damage proportion will remain similar. That's a difference in damage percentage of over 70% when all is said and done.
Let's compare this to a Plasma Rifle with Max Warbarge and 3x Damage mods...it too will completely negate it's negative damage profile against armor, doing 1.1373x damage vs armor and 1.613x Damage vs Shields...and just reverse those numbers for the rail rifle. CBRs do 1.68589x Damage with the same setup vs armor and still do 1.308356x Damage vs shields. If you look...the damage profiles at the end arive about where you'd expect them to be...maintaining proportional damage based on type. The only thing the ScR can do that's different is frontload some of its charges into the Charge Shot...at a cost of heat (effectively magazine in terms of fire limiting power).
I'd hardly call the CBR OP anymore...it's right about where it needs to be vs both my armor suits and my shield suits. I'm holding off any further judgment on the Scrambler Rifle until we see how these upcoming changes will affect the performance (think about how huge they are for a second...particularly that slow-on-charge one).
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
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Posted - 2015.10.01 06:52:00 -
[31] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:deezy dabest wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:
The Damage Profile isn't the primary drawback of the ScR, the Heat Buildup is. The problem with your line of reasoning, is that the shot will still be doing proportionally higher damage to shields as well, you seem to be trying to characterize it as magically no longer having its profile which isn't the case. Any weapon is capable of stacking damage mods and doing additional damage vs the buffer they are weaker to...while the ScR may be a unique case in that it builds up more damage as it charges, it also builds up additional heat...every point of damage you build up past your base damage to that buffer generates 3x the heat of the "normal" damage...after foxfour that will be 4x the heat. Part of the trouble when looking at Laser type weaponry in this game is that they have both heat and magazine capacity...which both function as hard DPS limiters, it's better to look at a heat cycle as a sort of magazine cycle on its own.
The issue is with proficiency, warbarge, and damage modifiers added to the profile you are talking over 150% damage before any charge is applied. The primary drawback first and fore most is that for all it gains against shields it is suppose to be less proficient against armor by a fairly big margin but that is being completely cancelled out by how other bonuses stack with the charge bonus. The only thing we can really compare to is the combat rifle with its +15 / -15 profile. Overall almost any armor player would be glad to say it is OP while any shield player would say that it is not that bad. This is because its damage profile is working as intended. Proficiency only mods the profile vs shields...not against armor. And while staking 3 damage mods with Warbarge will negate the "negative" on the damage profile (doing a little more than 1x damage actually...1.0198x damage), you're still vs shields getting that massive 1.7592x Damage Multiplier...and regardless of what multipliers you add on past that, the damage proportion will remain similar. That's a difference in damage percentage of over 70% when all is said and done. Let's compare this to a Plasma Rifle with Max Warbarge and 3x Damage mods...it too will completely negate it's negative damage profile against armor, doing 1.1373x damage vs armor and 1.613x Damage vs Shields...and just reverse those numbers for the rail rifle. CBRs do 1.68589x Damage with the same setup vs armor and still do 1.308356x Damage vs shields. If you look...the damage profiles at the end arive about where you'd expect them to be...maintaining proportional damage based on type. The only thing the ScR can do that's different is frontload some of its charges into the Charge Shot...at a cost of heat (effectively magazine in terms of fire limiting power). I'd hardly call the CBR OP anymore...it's right about where it needs to be vs both my armor suits and my shield suits. I'm holding off any further judgment on the Scrambler Rifle until we see how these upcoming changes will affect the performance (think about how huge they are for a second...particularly that slow-on-charge one).
(fail)
My point is that the Scrambler receives a MASSIVE bonus against shield with everything accounted for. It is SUPPOSE to also have a large drawback against armor to balance this out. Instead the warbarge bonus and damage modifiers in combination with the charging mechanics are completely negating what is suppose to be the first and most important drawback for the scrambler.
Many time Rattati has said the ScR is too effective against armor. What I am trying to explain is that this is exactly why it is too effective against armor and no amount no screwing around with heat build up, kick, movement speed, or whatever else you want to come up with is going to fix this 100% broken design.
Either the charge bonus has to be significantly reduced or the profile has got to be changed. There is no way around this since obviously redesigning damage mods and the warbarge to fix the scrambler is out of the question.
The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
470
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Posted - 2015.10.01 07:21:00 -
[32] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:deezy dabest wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:
The Damage Profile isn't the primary drawback of the ScR, the Heat Buildup is. The problem with your line of reasoning, is that the shot will still be doing proportionally higher damage to shields as well, you seem to be trying to characterize it as magically no longer having its profile which isn't the case. Any weapon is capable of stacking damage mods and doing additional damage vs the buffer they are weaker to...while the ScR may be a unique case in that it builds up more damage as it charges, it also builds up additional heat...every point of damage you build up past your base damage to that buffer generates 3x the heat of the "normal" damage...after foxfour that will be 4x the heat. Part of the trouble when looking at Laser type weaponry in this game is that they have both heat and magazine capacity...which both function as hard DPS limiters, it's better to look at a heat cycle as a sort of magazine cycle on its own.
The issue is with proficiency, warbarge, and damage modifiers added to the profile you are talking over 150% damage before any charge is applied. The primary drawback first and fore most is that for all it gains against shields it is suppose to be less proficient against armor by a fairly big margin but that is being completely cancelled out by how other bonuses stack with the charge bonus. The only thing we can really compare to is the combat rifle with its +15 / -15 profile. Overall almost any armor player would be glad to say it is OP while any shield player would say that it is not that bad. This is because its damage profile is working as intended. Proficiency only mods the profile vs shields...not against armor. And while staking 3 damage mods with Warbarge will negate the "negative" on the damage profile (doing a little more than 1x damage actually...1.0198x damage), you're still vs shields getting that massive 1.7592x Damage Multiplier...and regardless of what multipliers you add on past that, the damage proportion will remain similar. That's a difference in damage percentage of over 70% when all is said and done. Let's compare this to a Plasma Rifle with Max Warbarge and 3x Damage mods...it too will completely negate it's negative damage profile against armor, doing 1.1373x damage vs armor and 1.613x Damage vs Shields...and just reverse those numbers for the rail rifle. CBRs do 1.68589x Damage with the same setup vs armor and still do 1.308356x Damage vs shields. If you look...the damage profiles at the end arive about where you'd expect them to be...maintaining proportional damage based on type. The only thing the ScR can do that's different is frontload some of its charges into the Charge Shot...at a cost of heat (effectively magazine in terms of fire limiting power). I'd hardly call the CBR OP anymore...it's right about where it needs to be vs both my armor suits and my shield suits. I'm holding off any further judgment on the Scrambler Rifle until we see how these upcoming changes will affect the performance (think about how huge they are for a second...particularly that slow-on-charge one). (fail) My point is that the Scrambler receives a MASSIVE bonus against shield with everything accounted for. It is SUPPOSE to also have a large drawback against armor to balance this out. Instead the warbarge bonus and damage modifiers in combination with the charging mechanics are completely negating what is suppose to be the first and most important drawback for the scrambler. Many time Rattati has said the ScR is too effective against armor. What I am trying to explain is that this is exactly why it is too effective against armor and no amount no screwing around with heat build up, kick, movement speed, or whatever else you want to come up with is going to fix this 100% broken design. Either the charge bonus has to be significantly reduced or the profile has got to be changed. There is no way around this since obviously redesigning damage mods and the warbarge to fix the scrambler is out of the question.
So can we at least agree that we'd rather have damage mod's design changed as a more optimal solution to the tactical advantage provided by the charge shot? (and by extension the tactical advantage provided by any alpha-strike based weapon)
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.10.01 09:28:00 -
[33] - Quote
7.00%, 6.08%, 3.99%, Total bonus: 18.04%
Lets look at the actual damage per shot
Viziam scambler: 71.5
1 dmg mod: 76.505
2 dmg mod: 80.85
3 dmg mod: 84.3986
3 dmg mod Charge shot 4 x = 337.5944
Regular charge shot 4 x 71.5 = 286
Difference =51.5944
Percentage 51.5944 / 286 = 0.1804
Actual percentage increase 18.04
Your 84.58% number is complete and utter B.S.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Fluffy Exterminatus
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
87
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Posted - 2015.10.02 03:20:00 -
[34] - Quote
Forever ETC wrote:Fluffy Exterminatus wrote:Yeah all the turbo controller kids use it cause the charge shot is OP. lol... 7% is still 7% it might do 28 more damage with 4X multiplier but its still 7%. Shotgun with dam mod doesnt get 60% dam bonus because all the pellets hit.
Dont worry about it they all going to switch to ass gko with tac ar now. You haven't met the ScR community then. Most of us have still been using the weapon despite all the nerfs.
i have seen the scr community. i have seen lots of scr firing like they are assault scr. i havnt seen many charge shots.That is why they are increasing kick per shot X4. apparently changing heat build up from per second to per shot is to hard.
CCP Rattati - Grand Dragon Wizard of the Gaylente Agenda
Touched by his noodly appendage (The Flying Spaghetti Monster
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