DUST Search - I just realized the ACTUAL problem with the Scrambler w Basic number...

Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:

deezy dabest wrote:

Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:

The Damage Profile isn't the primary drawback of the ScR, the Heat Buildup is. The problem with your line of reasoning, is that the shot will still be doing proportionally higher damage to shields as well, you seem to be trying to characterize it as magically no longer having its profile which isn't the case. Any weapon is capable of stacking damage mods and doing additional damage vs the buffer they are weaker to...while the ScR may be a unique case in that it builds up more damage as it charges, it also builds up additional heat...every point of damage you build up past your base damage to that buffer generates 3x the heat of the "normal" damage...after foxfour that will be 4x the heat. Part of the trouble when looking at Laser type weaponry in this game is that they have both heat and magazine capacity...which both function as hard DPS limiters, it's better to look at a heat cycle as a sort of magazine cycle on its own.

The issue is with proficiency, warbarge, and damage modifiers added to the profile you are talking over 150% damage before any charge is applied. The primary drawback first and fore most is that for all it gains against shields it is suppose to be less proficient against armor by a fairly big margin but that is being completely cancelled out by how other bonuses stack with the charge bonus.

The only thing we can really compare to is the combat rifle with its +15 / -15 profile. Overall almost any armor player would be glad to say it is OP while any shield player would say that it is not that bad. This is because its damage profile is working as intended.

Proficiency only mods the profile vs shields...not against armor. And while staking 3 damage mods with Warbarge will negate the "negative" on the damage profile (doing a little more than 1x damage actually...1.0198x damage), you're still vs shields getting that massive 1.7592x Damage Multiplier...and regardless of what multipliers you add on past that, the damage proportion will remain similar. That's a difference in damage percentage of over 70% when all is said and done.

Let's compare this to a Plasma Rifle with Max Warbarge and 3x Damage mods...it too will completely negate it's negative damage profile against armor, doing 1.1373x damage vs armor and 1.613x Damage vs Shields...and just reverse those numbers for the rail rifle. CBRs do 1.68589x Damage with the same setup vs armor and still do 1.308356x Damage vs shields. If you look...the damage profiles at the end arive about where you'd expect them to be...maintaining proportional damage based on type. The only thing the ScR can do that's different is frontload some of its charges into the Charge Shot...at a cost of heat (effectively magazine in terms of fire limiting power).

I'd hardly call the CBR OP anymore...it's right about where it needs to be vs both my armor suits and my shield suits. I'm holding off any further judgment on the Scrambler Rifle until we see how these upcoming changes will affect the performance (think about how huge they are for a second...particularly that slow-on-charge one).

The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.


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deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.09.29 19:38:00 - [1] - Quote I kind of feel dumb never having realized this before. The scrambler rifle receives FAR too much benefit from damage mods. No other weapon in the game has the ability to modify its own damage so it is something easily overlooked. A full charge on the scrambler rifle gives it a x4 multiplier. That means that a 7% damage mod effectively becomes a 28% boost from one module. This is precisely why the thing stays so effective against armor no matter what we do. As some saw in the testing that Thaddeus and myself did there is always a damage multiplier meaning there is no instance where a damage mod only does 7% The same issue applies to the constantly growing warbarge multipliers. EDIT: This also makes mod stacking wildly effective over all other weapons. A normal weapon looks about like this with 3 mods stacked: Individual bonuses: 7.00%, 6.08%, 3.99%, Total bonus: 18.04% A fully charged ScR receives a benefit something like this: 28.00%, 24.34%, 15.98%, Total bonus: 84.58% WOWOWOW Enter warbarges and proficiency skills and there we have it. The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.09.29 19:54:00 - [2] - Quote 7th Son 7 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: I kind of feel dumb never having realized this before. The scrambler rifle receives FAR too much benefit from damage mods. No other weapon in the game has the ability to modify its own damage so it is something easily overlooked. A full charge on the scrambler rifle gives it a x4 multiplier. That means that a 7% damage mod effectively becomes a 28% boost from one module. This is precisely why the thing stays so effective against armor no matter what we do. As some saw in the testing that Thaddeus and myself did there is always a damage multiplier meaning there is no instance where a damage mod only does 7% The same issue applies to the constantly growing warbarge multipliers. Something so simple but it makes sense. Exactly why I felt dumb missing it. I stayed so focused on damage profiles being the issue that this went unchecked until I was making a spread sheet of fits to prove profile was the biggest issue. I'm not sure if that's a fail or a win. The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.09.29 20:27:00 - [3] - Quote I am thinking on how to fix this and unfortunately the only thing that makes sense is to reduce the charge multiplier to negate this. Why must uniqueness be a death sentence in this game? How many of you would rather a 2x full charge multiplier over the nerf that is incoming? The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.09.29 21:57:00 - [4] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: How many of you would rather a 2x full charge multiplier over the nerf that is incoming? The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.09.29 22:18:00 - [5] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but no. The damage mod still does +7% damage, it just does +7% to the higher damaged charge shot. This is not some kind of revelation, it's just that the charge shot does a lot of damage. Lets say 100 as base damage 100 * .07 = 107 107 * 4 = 428 400 * 1.07 = 428 See how that works? The fun of percentages. The effective result of a 7% damage mod on a fully charged ScR is still 28% no matter how you try to look at it. EDIT for Arkena. I realize that but I am talking about the effective gain received from placing a damage mod on a scrambler rifle. Any other weapon ONLY receives 7% while the scrambler receives 28% from its base damage when added in with a full charge. The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.09.29 22:26:00 - [6] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Gets even more harebrained when you tie in Micro-Charging. Exactly my point. I even reviewed my videos from that testing to confirm a couple of things. I made a separate thread for the actual poll on my proposed short term fix but here is the link. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1FDgNhu2BJ5waZgvLUXfgVgFBKYv3XY7VYqXgvWKQDJ4/viewform Lets also remember that something we have heard many times from Rattati is that the charge shot and follow up is too effective. When you consider the huge bonus a mod gets on the charge and the ensuing bonuses it all adds up to show exactly what he is saying. The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.10.01 04:16:00 - [7] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Also, doesn't the charge shot do x3.5 damage, not x4? Data So 3.8x damage then? I see the logic here too. It's just not the surprising result. Where are you getting the 3.8 from? Ooops, forgot to take into account the micro charge charge. Just looked at the multiplyer from the first 58 damage. Should have looked at the base of 54. 219 / 58 = 3.8 219 / 54.6 = 4 So yes, 4x is right. Yes myself and Thaddeus studied that VERY in depth when we did the data collection for that spread sheet. We were a bit shocked to find out it was a total of x4 when by all accounts before that it was believed to be 3.5. I made a copy of the spreadsheet and added columns for 1, 2, and 3 damage mods multiplied by the actual damage done to armor. Scroll all the way to the right to see those columns. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rP783wR_YHtb0jGqWyRNqFly_DNyyUFJtAlgDg-sFsw/edit?usp=sharing At just 80ms of micro charging with ONE damage mod the damage versus armor has reached the full base value of the ScR completely erasing what is suppose to be the primary drawback of this weapon. With 2 damage mods the base microcharge damage at 40 ms has returned to the base damage value of the weapon 100% eliminating the -20%. How many times has Rattati said the problem is the scrambler is too effective against armor? The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.10.01 06:00:00 - [8] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: The Damage Profile isn't the primary drawback of the ScR, the Heat Buildup is. The problem with your line of reasoning, is that the shot will still be doing proportionally higher damage to shields as well, you seem to be trying to characterize it as magically no longer having its profile which isn't the case. Any weapon is capable of stacking damage mods and doing additional damage vs the buffer they are weaker to...while the ScR may be a unique case in that it builds up more damage as it charges, it also builds up additional heat...every point of damage you build up past your base damage to that buffer generates 3x the heat of the "normal" damage...after foxfour that will be 4x the heat. Part of the trouble when looking at Laser type weaponry in this game is that they have both heat and magazine capacity...which both function as hard DPS limiters, it's better to look at a heat cycle as a sort of magazine cycle on its own. The issue is with proficiency, warbarge, and damage modifiers added to the profile you are talking over 150% damage before any charge is applied. The primary drawback first and fore most is that for all it gains against shields it is suppose to be less proficient against armor by a fairly big margin but that is being completely cancelled out by how other bonuses stack with the charge bonus. The only thing we can really compare to is the combat rifle with its +15 / -15 profile. Overall almost any armor player would be glad to say it is OP while any shield player would say that it is not that bad. This is because its damage profile is working as intended. The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.10.01 06:52:00 - [9] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: The Damage Profile isn't the primary drawback of the ScR, the Heat Buildup is. The problem with your line of reasoning, is that the shot will still be doing proportionally higher damage to shields as well, you seem to be trying to characterize it as magically no longer having its profile which isn't the case. Any weapon is capable of stacking damage mods and doing additional damage vs the buffer they are weaker to...while the ScR may be a unique case in that it builds up more damage as it charges, it also builds up additional heat...every point of damage you build up past your base damage to that buffer generates 3x the heat of the "normal" damage...after foxfour that will be 4x the heat. Part of the trouble when looking at Laser type weaponry in this game is that they have both heat and magazine capacity...which both function as hard DPS limiters, it's better to look at a heat cycle as a sort of magazine cycle on its own. The issue is with proficiency, warbarge, and damage modifiers added to the profile you are talking over 150% damage before any charge is applied. The primary drawback first and fore most is that for all it gains against shields it is suppose to be less proficient against armor by a fairly big margin but that is being completely cancelled out by how other bonuses stack with the charge bonus. The only thing we can really compare to is the combat rifle with its +15 / -15 profile. Overall almost any armor player would be glad to say it is OP while any shield player would say that it is not that bad. This is because its damage profile is working as intended. Proficiency only mods the profile vs shields...not against armor. And while staking 3 damage mods with Warbarge will negate the "negative" on the damage profile (doing a little more than 1x damage actually...1.0198x damage), you're still vs shields getting that massive 1.7592x Damage Multiplier...and regardless of what multipliers you add on past that, the damage proportion will remain similar. That's a difference in damage percentage of over 70% when all is said and done. Let's compare this to a Plasma Rifle with Max Warbarge and 3x Damage mods...it too will completely negate it's negative damage profile against armor, doing 1.1373x damage vs armor and 1.613x Damage vs Shields...and just reverse those numbers for the rail rifle. CBRs do 1.68589x Damage with the same setup vs armor and still do 1.308356x Damage vs shields. If you look...the damage profiles at the end arive about where you'd expect them to be...maintaining proportional damage based on type. The only thing the ScR can do that's different is frontload some of its charges into the Charge Shot...at a cost of heat (effectively magazine in terms of fire limiting power). I'd hardly call the CBR OP anymore...it's right about where it needs to be vs both my armor suits and my shield suits. I'm holding off any further judgment on the Scrambler Rifle until we see how these upcoming changes will affect the performance (think about how huge they are for a second...particularly that slow-on-charge one). (fail) My point is that the Scrambler receives a MASSIVE bonus against shield with everything accounted for. It is SUPPOSE to also have a large drawback against armor to balance this out. Instead the warbarge bonus and damage modifiers in combination with the charging mechanics are completely negating what is suppose to be the first and most important drawback for the scrambler. Many time Rattati has said the ScR is too effective against armor. What I am trying to explain is that this is exactly why it is too effective against armor and no amount no screwing around with heat build up, kick, movement speed, or whatever else you want to come up with is going to fix this 100% broken design. Either the charge bonus has to be significantly reduced or the profile has got to be changed. There is no way around this since obviously redesigning damage mods and the warbarge to fix the scrambler is out of the question. The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.