DUST Search - REQUEST: AV Acknowledgement

DeathwindRising wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

Mina Longstrike wrote:

I believe the real issue is that vehicle raw HP is too low, hardeners harden for too much, and effective reps per second are way too high. Increase the raw hp (makes vehicles feel a bit more confident without modules up), lower the hardening values (2hardener 2 reps tank goes from ~4kehp to ~10k with modules active, and its reps go from ~200 to ~500) and lower the effective reps (this makes damage 'stick', so tanks are not fine 10-15 seconds after they leave an area).

Av is either immediately lethal, or almost infinitely endurable in the current model.

In some respects I agree with this in others not so much.

I do feel like raw hit point values are too low and that modules convey too much benefit to the point where they are the defining modules on the vehicle.

On the other hand I don't believe the repair values per second are too high at all. The only thing that prevents them from being balanced is that they are passive.

138 repairs per second from a Complex Heavy Armour Repairer is a fair value.

yes and no. Have i showed you my horrible AV/HAV proposal?

It addresses a lot of things.

The only thing I can't figure out how to word in it is adjusting tank prices downward without sounding more arrogant than I usually do, or some poncy douchewad who thinks he knows more than he does.

I'm of the opinion that HAV/LAVs/Dropships should be disposable assets, just like dropsuits (not as easy to kill, obviously or why bother?) and priced as such so the roles can be economically sustainable rather than "LOL you must win this many battles to drive this vehicle."

I'd like an opinion of someone who is NOT an infantry sperg, so Pokey won't be alone in his odd dissenting points.

if vehicles get the same powercore treatment as dropsuits, how would you view tanks then?

disposable assets? we went through that phase once before. Everyone stopped running tanks, despite their lower costs, because proto tanks died to milita tanks. Vet tankers wont drive tanks that dont convey the level of investment made in SP/player skill.

Pricing is one way to handle things because vet tankers will run noobs into the ground economically.

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Sly Marb0 Scrub Squad F5ed 18	Posted - 2015.06.14 13:12:00 - [1] - Quote I don't mind that armor tanks can just ignore a fully loaded PLC salvo, but it bothers me that I don't get war points for hitting an armor tank while they are hardened. Double stacked hardeners come with their own balance issue but if they are going to stay then make it so every one of my hits are credited. Why even bother running AV if I can hit a tank 8 times and not once get credit for damaging it before they kill me?
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 798	Posted - 2015.06.14 20:31:00 - [2] - Quote Sly Marb0 wrote: I don't mind that armor tanks can just ignore a fully loaded PLC salvo, but it bothers me that I don't get war points for hitting an armor tank while they are hardened. Double stacked hardeners come with their own balance issue but if they are going to stay then make it so every one of my hits are credited. Why even bother running AV if I can hit a tank 8 times and not once get credit for damaging it before they kill me? Translation: "I dont mind being entirely ineffective as long as I get rewarded for it." Please rethink your opinions on this matter, because I believe they are stupid.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.14 22:02:00 - [3] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Sly Marb0 wrote: I don't mind that armor tanks can just ignore a fully loaded PLC salvo, but it bothers me that I don't get war points for hitting an armor tank while they are hardened. Double stacked hardeners come with their own balance issue but if they are going to stay then make it so every one of my hits are credited. Why even bother running AV if I can hit a tank 8 times and not once get credit for damaging it before they kill me? Translation: "I dont mind being entirely ineffective as long as I get rewarded for it." Please rethink your opinions on this matter, because I believe they are stupid. This is actually the reason the AV warpoints were added, so that AV would actually be a rewarding profession. Because Tanks used to be nigh unto unstoppable. Was about as effective then as now. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 682	Posted - 2015.06.14 22:14:00 - [4] - Quote If you're trying to kill an armour hardened tank with a plc there's a reason the game is not rewarding you I would recommend some av grenades, they have enough alpha to break the reps/hardener and get those sweet, sweet warpoints ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.14 22:23:00 - [5] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: If you're trying to kill an armour hardened tank with a plc there's a reason the game is not rewarding you I would recommend some av grenades, they have enough alpha to break the reps/hardener and get those sweet, sweet warpoints He actually brought up a valid point. whatever the hardeners are doing it prevents hits from forge guns and such from registering for warpoints. it's not just PLCs. The mechanic does not seem to be working as intended. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
emm kay Direct Action Resources 333	Posted - 2015.06.14 23:13:00 - [6] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: If you're trying to kill an armour hardened tank with a plc there's a reason the game is not rewarding you I would recommend some av grenades, they have enough alpha to break the reps/hardener and get those sweet, sweet warpoints He actually brought up a valid point. whatever the hardeners are doing it prevents hits from forge guns and such from registering for warpoints. it's not just PLCs. The mechanic does not seem to be working as intended. it's not hardeners. it's two hardeners. Like I said before, AV is a group effort. I've seen plenty of proto tanks (that aren't rail, suprisingly) taken down by two players. somethines it's me, sometimes it's not. somethinges it's proto and hardened, sometimes it's not. There is a reason you never see me in battle. it's because I see you first.
Sylwester Dziewiecki 478	Posted - 2015.06.14 23:28:00 - [7] - Quote The OP point is that you get rewarded with WP if you will reach a certain percentage point of vehicle total HP. So Armor based vehicles with have slightly more total HP, and they hardeners works longer, have less chance to give attacker extra WP compare to for example abandon enemy saga with you can farm for a while with flux grenades because of saga shield re-gen. I think. Gallente Speed Scout. EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.15 07:56:00 - [8] - Quote I believe the issue is that it is possible to negate WP rewards via fitting. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.15 08:58:00 - [9] - Quote I believe the real issue is that vehicle raw HP is too low, hardeners harden for too much, and effective reps per second are way too high. Increase the raw hp (makes vehicles feel a bit more confident without modules up), lower the hardening values (2hardener 2 reps tank goes from ~4kehp to ~10k with modules active, and its reps go from ~200 to ~500) and lower the effective reps (this makes damage 'stick', so tanks are not fine 10-15 seconds after they leave an area). Av is either immediately lethal, or almost infinitely endurable in the current model. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.06.15 17:10:00 - [10] - Quote I have no problem killing hardened tanks, at least in terms of the damage I can inflict. My problem is tanks can jet off at LAV speeds with near instant acceleration when I catch them off guard. This needs fixing. Greatly reduce their acceleration, and you'll start seeing way more tank kills. The problem isn't how much damage they can take, that's the purpose of the tank. The problem is how easily they can escape. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor

Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.06.15 17:20:00 - [11] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I believe the issue is that it is possible to negate WP rewards via fitting. Something is up, yet I don't know that it's due to fitting. Even in a tank myself there are times, against the same fit mind you, where the first two hits rack up points with a particle cannon. Then there are other times where I can pound on the same tank, 5-6 shots in, making no points. Hardeners up or down, seems to make no difference. The points are very flaky. Hit a drop ship last night with hardeners up, made points from 3 shots in a row. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 1	Posted - 2015.06.15 17:42:00 - [12] - Quote AV shouldn't get points for anything but vehicle destruction. The incentive should be the vehicle no longer existing. Not a bundle of points for nearly zero effort compared to any other role in the game. The enemies of God stand broken before us. The light of the Reclaiming shines over them! 12/13/14 Never forget
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 798	Posted - 2015.06.15 18:38:00 - [13] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Sly Marb0 wrote: I don't mind that armor tanks can just ignore a fully loaded PLC salvo, but it bothers me that I don't get war points for hitting an armor tank while they are hardened. Double stacked hardeners come with their own balance issue but if they are going to stay then make it so every one of my hits are credited. Why even bother running AV if I can hit a tank 8 times and not once get credit for damaging it before they kill me? Translation: "I dont mind being entirely ineffective as long as I get rewarded for it." Please rethink your opinions on this matter, because I believe they are stupid. This is actually the reason the AV warpoints were added, so that AV would actually be a rewarding profession. Because Tanks used to be nigh unto unstoppable. Was about as effective then as now. I have to disagree, since a rep/hardener madruger is 100% invincible to any single AV until the hardeners go down these days, before if the madruger just sat there it would eventually die.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 798	Posted - 2015.06.15 18:45:00 - [14] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: AV shouldn't get points for anything but vehicle destruction. The incentive should be the vehicle no longer existing. Not a bundle of points for nearly zero effort compared to any other role in the game. AV is the most pointless, frustrating, sisyphian task in this game and deserves all the rewards they can give it.
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 1	Posted - 2015.06.15 20:31:00 - [15] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: AV shouldn't get points for anything but vehicle destruction. The incentive should be the vehicle no longer existing. Not a bundle of points for nearly zero effort compared to any other role in the game. Couldn't disagree more. Making a vehicle lose HP to the point where they must disengage deserves to be rewarded. The system does exactly that, and rather well. Know what cannot be known.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.15 21:50:00 - [16] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: This is actually the reason the AV warpoints were added, so that AV would actually be a rewarding profession. Because Tanks used to be nigh unto unstoppable. Was about as effective then as now. I have to disagree, since a rep/hardener madruger is 100% invincible to any single AV until the hardeners go down these days, before if the madruger just sat there it would eventually die. Question: Did you actually read what I said? Because I don't think you're responding to my intent. at all. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Megaman Trigger Ready to Play 364	Posted - 2015.06.15 22:38:00 - [17] - Quote Only times I've gotten vehicle damage WP against double hardened Madrugers was by hitting the weak point. Hitting anywhere else just wastes ammo. Also noticed that taking out a Madruger's shields in one shot yields no WP, so I would like to ask what the damage threshold for earning WP is. On the other hand, I've hit a dropship so hard I've earned double WP for a single shot. Again, I'd like to know the threshold for WP and if it varies between vehicles. Purifier. First Class.
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 1	Posted - 2015.06.16 03:32:00 - [18] - Quote If I'm not mistaken, it has to do with the total HP value of the vehicle, so it's irrelevant to shields or armor. Know what cannot be known.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 798	Posted - 2015.06.16 06:17:00 - [19] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: This is actually the reason the AV warpoints were added, so that AV would actually be a rewarding profession. Because Tanks used to be nigh unto unstoppable. Was about as effective then as now. I have to disagree, since a rep/hardener madruger is 100% invincible to any single AV until the hardeners go down these days, before if the madruger just sat there it would eventually die. Question: Did you actually read what I said? Because I don't think you're responding to my intent. at all. "Because Tanks used to be nigh unto unstoppable. Was about as effective then as now." This is what I was responding to.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.16 07:37:00 - [20] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: This is actually the reason the AV warpoints were added, so that AV would actually be a rewarding profession. Because Tanks used to be nigh unto unstoppable. Was about as effective then as now. I have to disagree, since a rep/hardener madruger is 100% invincible to any single AV until the hardeners go down these days, before if the madruger just sat there it would eventually die. Question: Did you actually read what I said? Because I don't think you're responding to my intent. at all. "Because Tanks used to be nigh unto unstoppable. Was about as effective then as now." This is what I was responding to. At the time it was invulnerable gunnlogis. I am well aware of the current extremes of ridiculous fitting in the game. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Sly Marb0 Scrub Squad F5ed 22	Posted - 2015.06.16 08:51:00 - [21] - Quote The WP crediting is important because it creates incentive for blueberries to cooperate without communicating. When an otherwise unstoppable tank shows up, if there's no reward for attempting people will just tolerate it. I'm not asking for a broken amount of WP, I'd be content with a small but steady reward for each hit. I'm going to get a couple hits before either I kill the tank or they get away, let's actually make it worth the effort of the attempt. Think about how no one cares about popping equipment before they added the 5WP gain. Likewise, how do you think blueberry behavior would be if there was even a 1WP to finish off clones bleeding out? The point is, WP rewards are how you control blueberry behavior and currently there's incentive to not try and bother fighting back against certain tank builds.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 798	Posted - 2015.06.16 23:46:00 - [22] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: This is actually the reason the AV warpoints were added, so that AV would actually be a rewarding profession. Because Tanks used to be nigh unto unstoppable. Was about as effective then as now. I have to disagree, since a rep/hardener madruger is 100% invincible to any single AV until the hardeners go down these days, before if the madruger just sat there it would eventually die. Question: Did you actually read what I said? Because I don't think you're responding to my intent. at all. "Because Tanks used to be nigh unto unstoppable. Was about as effective then as now." This is what I was responding to. At the time it was invulnerable gunnlogis. I am well aware of the current extremes of ridiculous fitting in the game. I dont think the gunnlogis were harder to kill back then, but I guess the difference was marginal. At least the new madrugers are way easier to kill when their hardeners are down (which is actually something I would complain about alot if they werent invincible when they were on).
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 96	Posted - 2015.06.17 00:35:00 - [23] - Quote Sly Marb0 wrote: The WP crediting is important because it creates incentive for blueberries to cooperate without communicating. When an otherwise unstoppable tank shows up, if there's no reward for attempting people will just tolerate it. I'm not asking for a broken amount of WP, I'd be content with a small but steady reward for each hit. I'm going to get a couple hits before either I kill the tank or they get away, let's actually make it worth the effort of the attempt. Think about how no one cares about popping equipment before they added the 5WP gain. Likewise, how do you think blueberry behavior would be if there was even a 1WP to finish off clones bleeding out? The point is, WP rewards are how you control blueberry behavior and currently there's incentive to not try and bother fighting back against certain tank builds. If that'd be the case, base the clone destruction WP on meta level, higher meta level, higher WP earned, that's to any who finishes off the clone. When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.17 04:11:00 - [24] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: I believe the real issue is that vehicle raw HP is too low, hardeners harden for too much, and effective reps per second are way too high. Increase the raw hp (makes vehicles feel a bit more confident without modules up), lower the hardening values (2hardener 2 reps tank goes from ~4kehp to ~10k with modules active, and its reps go from ~200 to ~500) and lower the effective reps (this makes damage 'stick', so tanks are not fine 10-15 seconds after they leave an area). Av is either immediately lethal, or almost infinitely endurable in the current model. In some respects I agree with this in others not so much. I do feel like raw hit point values are too low and that modules convey too much benefit to the point where they are the defining modules on the vehicle. On the other hand I don't believe the repair values per second are too high at all. The only thing that prevents them from being balanced is that they are passive. 138 repairs per second from a Complex Heavy Armour Repairer is a fair value. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.17 20:13:00 - [25] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Mina Longstrike wrote: I believe the real issue is that vehicle raw HP is too low, hardeners harden for too much, and effective reps per second are way too high. Increase the raw hp (makes vehicles feel a bit more confident without modules up), lower the hardening values (2hardener 2 reps tank goes from ~4kehp to ~10k with modules active, and its reps go from ~200 to ~500) and lower the effective reps (this makes damage 'stick', so tanks are not fine 10-15 seconds after they leave an area). Av is either immediately lethal, or almost infinitely endurable in the current model. In some respects I agree with this in others not so much. I do feel like raw hit point values are too low and that modules convey too much benefit to the point where they are the defining modules on the vehicle. On the other hand I don't believe the repair values per second are too high at all. The only thing that prevents them from being balanced is that they are passive. 138 repairs per second from a Complex Heavy Armour Repairer is a fair value. yes and no. Have i showed you my horrible AV/HAV proposal? It addresses a lot of things. The only thing I can't figure out how to word in it is adjusting tank prices downward without sounding more arrogant than I usually do, or some poncy douchewad who thinks he knows more than he does. I'm of the opinion that HAV/LAVs/Dropships should be disposable assets, just like dropsuits (not as easy to kill, obviously or why bother?) and priced as such so the roles can be economically sustainable rather than "LOL you must win this many battles to drive this vehicle." I'd like an opinion of someone who is NOT an infantry sperg, so Pokey won't be alone in his odd dissenting points. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.06.17 21:46:00 - [26] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: True Adamance wrote: Mina Longstrike wrote: I believe the real issue is that vehicle raw HP is too low, hardeners harden for too much, and effective reps per second are way too high. Increase the raw hp (makes vehicles feel a bit more confident without modules up), lower the hardening values (2hardener 2 reps tank goes from ~4kehp to ~10k with modules active, and its reps go from ~200 to ~500) and lower the effective reps (this makes damage 'stick', so tanks are not fine 10-15 seconds after they leave an area). Av is either immediately lethal, or almost infinitely endurable in the current model. In some respects I agree with this in others not so much. I do feel like raw hit point values are too low and that modules convey too much benefit to the point where they are the defining modules on the vehicle. On the other hand I don't believe the repair values per second are too high at all. The only thing that prevents them from being balanced is that they are passive. 138 repairs per second from a Complex Heavy Armour Repairer is a fair value. yes and no. Have i showed you my horrible AV/HAV proposal? It addresses a lot of things. The only thing I can't figure out how to word in it is adjusting tank prices downward without sounding more arrogant than I usually do, or some poncy douchewad who thinks he knows more than he does. I'm of the opinion that HAV/LAVs/Dropships should be disposable assets, just like dropsuits (not as easy to kill, obviously or why bother?) and priced as such so the roles can be economically sustainable rather than "LOL you must win this many battles to drive this vehicle." I'd like an opinion of someone who is NOT an infantry sperg, so Pokey won't be alone in his odd dissenting points. if vehicles get the same powercore treatment as dropsuits, how would you view tanks then? disposable assets? we went through that phase once before. Everyone stopped running tanks, despite their lower costs, because proto tanks died to milita tanks. Vet tankers wont drive tanks that dont convey the level of investment made in SP/player skill. Pricing is one way to handle things because vet tankers will run noobs into the ground economically.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 293	Posted - 2015.06.17 21:57:00 - [27] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: True Adamance wrote: Mina Longstrike wrote: I believe the real issue is that vehicle raw HP is too low, hardeners harden for too much, and effective reps per second are way too high. Increase the raw hp (makes vehicles feel a bit more confident without modules up), lower the hardening values (2hardener 2 reps tank goes from ~4kehp to ~10k with modules active, and its reps go from ~200 to ~500) and lower the effective reps (this makes damage 'stick', so tanks are not fine 10-15 seconds after they leave an area). Av is either immediately lethal, or almost infinitely endurable in the current model. In some respects I agree with this in others not so much. I do feel like raw hit point values are too low and that modules convey too much benefit to the point where they are the defining modules on the vehicle. On the other hand I don't believe the repair values per second are too high at all. The only thing that prevents them from being balanced is that they are passive. 138 repairs per second from a Complex Heavy Armour Repairer is a fair value. yes and no. Have i showed you my horrible AV/HAV proposal? It addresses a lot of things. The only thing I can't figure out how to word in it is adjusting tank prices downward without sounding more arrogant than I usually do, or some poncy douchewad who thinks he knows more than he does. I'm of the opinion that HAV/LAVs/Dropships should be disposable assets, just like dropsuits (not as easy to kill, obviously or why bother?) and priced as such so the roles can be economically sustainable rather than "LOL you must win this many battles to drive this vehicle." I'd like an opinion of someone who is NOT an infantry sperg, so Pokey won't be alone in his odd dissenting points. if vehicles get the same powercore treatment as dropsuits, how would you view tanks then? disposable assets? we went through that phase once before. Everyone stopped running tanks, despite their lower costs, because proto tanks died to milita tanks. Vet tankers wont drive tanks that dont convey the level of investment made in SP/player skill. Pricing is one way to handle things because vet tankers will run noobs into the ground economically. Well...HAVs already kinda have the Powercore Treatment that dropsuits might be getting... HAVs as-is are at a power level where they should be considered disposable assets, with one module set being a glaring exception (Looking at you Passive Armor Reps) in my opinion ofc...I think buffer on HAVs should go up, but regen should be going down and/or moved to actives...so that damage sticks around longer Price shouldn't be a balancing point precisely because it automatically puts the advantage into veteran player's hands, as they are the ones who know how to survive in their expensive assets the most, and have had the most time to amass assets to cover the losses sustained during normal operation. Something shouldn't be too strong because it's expensive, nor should something be expensive because it's too strong, both are indicative of a fundamental problem with the variables at play, with price being a limiter that's largely irrelevant to the tactical play. (It wouldn't matter how expensive you made an HAV, if it truly provided you with a massive, no-counter advantage, there'd still be no reason not to run it...See the early days of Titan class vessels in Eve) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 96	Posted - 2015.06.17 22:11:00 - [28] - Quote A lot of us... Don't play EVE.... When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.17 22:55:00 - [29] - Quote Zan Azikuchi wrote: A lot of us... Don't play EVE.... for a while there was nothing really big enough to be worth pointing a titan at and risking it, save for another titan, or the opportunity to doomsday splash entire grids of ships without warning. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.18 02:23:00 - [30] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Disposable Assets Not sure I personally agree with that. I really need to format a proper response however to summarise it quickly it would be that rather than a disposable asset I would personally like to see HAV and other vehicle types really take on a tactical value in combat. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`



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