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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
6294
   |
Posted - 2015.05.09 20:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
They just seem all over the place now with some being better than others(apex). It all just seems very uncertain for the future of the standard bpo's or even the apex.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
9981
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Posted - 2015.05.09 20:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:They just seem all over the place now with some being better than others(apex). It all just seems very uncertain for the future of the standard bpo's or even the apex.
And that's exactly what you guys wanted.
You guys are like a broken record with this "CPM material" business xD Let it go
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
6294
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Posted - 2015.05.09 20:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:They just seem all over the place now with some being better than others(apex). It all just seems very uncertain for the future of the standard bpo's or even the apex. And that's exactly what you guys wanted.
Generalizing people is a no no Mr.Amadi and to be correct I've always hated the idea of apex suits.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
|
Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
9982
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Posted - 2015.05.09 20:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:They just seem all over the place now with some being better than others(apex). It all just seems very uncertain for the future of the standard bpo's or even the apex. And that's exactly what you guys wanted. Generalizing people is a no no Mr.Amadi and to be correct I've always hated the idea of apex suits.
And that's exactly what those guys wanted.
You guys are like a broken record with this "CPM material" business xD Let it go
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
6294
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Posted - 2015.05.09 20:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:They just seem all over the place now with some being better than others(apex). It all just seems very uncertain for the future of the standard bpo's or even the apex. And that's exactly what you guys wanted. Generalizing people is a no no Mr.Amadi and to be correct I've always hated the idea of apex suits. And that's exactly what those guys wanted.
Sometimes I just think you want people to dislike you.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
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Regnier Feros
Pielords
337
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 20:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mmmmm apex
"You're like a she-male.. hates gym, doesn't know how to be alpha.. you'll stay in the friendzone for life" -Senpai
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
9984
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Posted - 2015.05.09 20:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:They just seem all over the place now with some being better than others(apex). It all just seems very uncertain for the future of the standard bpo's or even the apex. And that's exactly what you guys wanted. Generalizing people is a no no Mr.Amadi and to be correct I've always hated the idea of apex suits. And that's exactly what those guys wanted. Sometimes I just think you want people to dislike you.
If the Dust 514 community didn't want BPOs or APEX suits, they would have spoken out against them. The majority of the players did the opposite and bought them, showing CCP that they were a revenue-generating asset in the game. The CPM made their opinion known about them, favorably, and gave APEX suits the green-light under the pretense that they were not able to be customized and would therefore not be pay-to-win.
Now they are customizable and whether or not the CPM was made aware of that (of which I'm certain they were because I'm not entirely convinced the CPM are capable of saying 'no' to CCP) is hindsight. Fact of the matter is that they exist, they -are- pay-to-win because they are a customizable Prototype BPO that overshadows even ISK-standard suits no matter how well they are 'balanced' because they simply have more slots.
Yes, people dislike me. No, I do not care. I have a very opinionated view when it comes to these things because I consider the long-term impact that they'll have and I knew that APEX BPO's were going to have a sizable impact as a whole on the gameplay when they were first announced (feel free to find my posts back then, I was disappointed). The community, however, wants them in the game and for whatever reason are unconcerned with their impact. It's just something we have to accept.
You guys are like a broken record with this "CPM material" business xD Let it go
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8509
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 20:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
I approve of this uncertain future, move that we immediately tiericide dropsuits and increase all other modules costs to compensate for the loss of equivalent dropsuit cost.
There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
6294
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 20:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
\o/ see that's all I wanted from you instead of a one sentence response left for the future generations to decipher.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
|
Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
9986
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 20:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
And before anyone brings up the 'They're not pay to win because you can get them from FW' argument...
Pay-to-win changes in meaning depending on the arguer. That's always been the case. The goalpost for the Pay-to-Win definition continuously moves around to justify certain things and eventually it's just a keyword that people use to argue whether or not something should be in the game when it's really just a difference of opinion.
Here's the facts:
BPOs and APEX BPOs take away the feeling of risk and loss from this game. You don't have to worry about ISK expenditure and no matter how you want to justify it (availability in LP store, the ****** Eve Online 'noob ship' argument that people parrot while having no idea what they're talking about) the fact of the matter is this: In case of the APEX BPO, you field a powerful suit that is capable of versatility that standard BPO's simply cannot match. Sure, you can put on Complex modules and what not on a standard BPO, but you will never have the diverse effects of maximum fitting slots - this is where the power of higher tiered suits comes from to begin with outside of better PG/CPU.
The customization of APEX suits puts a precedent that, if you want to win in this game, you have to pay up. That, if you want an endless ISK source that is generated while you make minimal changes to your gameplay performance, you need to chalk up a few bucks. This effect is permanent and the argument was originally that "we don't have a market, we don't have an economy" - well, now we do.
We have a way to sell assets to an NPC vendor for raw ISK, we have an ability to trade items (that will eventually include things besides just officer gear). Yes, we have an economy now, even if it is rudimentary. Consider the effects that are brought on by the following:
The value of Standard Gear compared to a single BPO.
The value of a BPO compared to an APEX BPO.
Why would you ever buy a standard -anything- when you can just buy the one BPO and be done with it, PERMANENTLY?
Why would you ever buy a BPO if you can customize an APEX BPO, PERMANENTLY?
Regardless of how little of an impact they've made, they've still made an impact. There is simply no reason at all to purchase standard ISK variant suits/weapons anymore because BPO's replace them and give you the functionality of never having to spend ISK on them again; essentially creating an ISK faucet. The two most expensive items in the game are Suits and Weapons - both of which conveniently have BPO availability.
In the scope of the economy, these things are monstrous. I really can't wrap my head around why the Dust 514 community cannot see that or care about that.
You guys are like a broken record with this "CPM material" business xD Let it go
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8510
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 21:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:And before anyone brings up the 'They're not pay to win because you can get them from FW' argument...
Pay-to-win changes in meaning depending on the arguer. That's always been the case. The goalpost for the Pay-to-Win definition continuously moves around to justify certain things and eventually it's just a keyword that people use to argue whether or not something should be in the game when it's really just a difference of opinion.
Here's the facts:
BPOs and APEX BPOs take away the feeling of risk and loss from this game. You don't have to worry about ISK expenditure and no matter how you want to justify it (availability in LP store, the ****** Eve Online 'noob ship' argument that people parrot while having no idea what they're talking about) the fact of the matter is this: In case of the APEX BPO, you field a powerful suit that is capable of versatility that standard BPO's simply cannot match. Sure, you can put on Complex modules and what not on a standard BPO, but you will never have the diverse effects of maximum fitting slots - this is where the power of higher tiered suits comes from to begin with outside of better PG/CPU.
The customization of APEX suits puts a precedent that, if you want to win in this game, you have to pay up. That, if you want an endless ISK source that is generated while you make minimal changes to your gameplay performance, you need to chalk up a few bucks. This effect is permanent and the argument was originally that "we don't have a market, we don't have an economy" - well, now we do.
We have a way to sell assets to an NPC vendor for raw ISK, we have an ability to trade items (that will eventually include things besides just officer gear). Yes, we have an economy now, even if it is rudimentary. Consider the effects that are brought on by the following:
The value of Standard Gear compared to a single BPO.
The value of a BPO compared to an APEX BPO.
Why would you ever buy a standard -anything- when you can just buy the one BPO and be done with it, PERMANENTLY?
Why would you ever buy a BPO if you can customize an APEX BPO, PERMANENTLY?
Regardless of how little of an impact they've made, they've still made an impact. There is simply no reason at all to purchase standard ISK variant suits/weapons anymore because BPO's replace them and give you the functionality of never having to spend ISK on them again; essentially creating an ISK faucet. The two most expensive items in the game are Suits and Weapons - both of which conveniently have BPO availability.
In the scope of the economy, these things are monstrous. I really can't wrap my head around why the Dust 514 community cannot see that or care about that.
Because the concept of FUN trumps your concept of how the world should work.
There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
9986
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 21:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:And before anyone brings up the 'They're not pay to win because you can get them from FW' argument...
Pay-to-win changes in meaning depending on the arguer. That's always been the case. The goalpost for the Pay-to-Win definition continuously moves around to justify certain things and eventually it's just a keyword that people use to argue whether or not something should be in the game when it's really just a difference of opinion.
Here's the facts:
BPOs and APEX BPOs take away the feeling of risk and loss from this game. You don't have to worry about ISK expenditure and no matter how you want to justify it (availability in LP store, the ****** Eve Online 'noob ship' argument that people parrot while having no idea what they're talking about) the fact of the matter is this: In case of the APEX BPO, you field a powerful suit that is capable of versatility that standard BPO's simply cannot match. Sure, you can put on Complex modules and what not on a standard BPO, but you will never have the diverse effects of maximum fitting slots - this is where the power of higher tiered suits comes from to begin with outside of better PG/CPU.
The customization of APEX suits puts a precedent that, if you want to win in this game, you have to pay up. That, if you want an endless ISK source that is generated while you make minimal changes to your gameplay performance, you need to chalk up a few bucks. This effect is permanent and the argument was originally that "we don't have a market, we don't have an economy" - well, now we do.
We have a way to sell assets to an NPC vendor for raw ISK, we have an ability to trade items (that will eventually include things besides just officer gear). Yes, we have an economy now, even if it is rudimentary. Consider the effects that are brought on by the following:
The value of Standard Gear compared to a single BPO.
The value of a BPO compared to an APEX BPO.
Why would you ever buy a standard -anything- when you can just buy the one BPO and be done with it, PERMANENTLY?
Why would you ever buy a BPO if you can customize an APEX BPO, PERMANENTLY?
Regardless of how little of an impact they've made, they've still made an impact. There is simply no reason at all to purchase standard ISK variant suits/weapons anymore because BPO's replace them and give you the functionality of never having to spend ISK on them again; essentially creating an ISK faucet. The two most expensive items in the game are Suits and Weapons - both of which conveniently have BPO availability.
In the scope of the economy, these things are monstrous. I really can't wrap my head around why the Dust 514 community cannot see that or care about that. Because the concept of FUN trumps your concept of how the world should work.
Assuming one could have any less fun by spending ISK on the same gear.
You guys are like a broken record with this "CPM material" business xD Let it go
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8515
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 21:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
Assuming one could have any less fun by spending ISK on the same gear.
Which usually results in anyone who hasn't been enjoying nonstop PC ISK farming exploits over the last year to go thoroughly broke.
Because we all know that being broke in DUST 514 and having to use nothing but standard/militia is an amazing experience!
I give it a 10 out of 10 for happiness and fulfillment!
Just in case you really are that oblivious, that is what we call "sarcasm."
There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
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DanielCM
TO THE DEATH
17
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 21:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
I wish you two were on the cpm. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8517
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 21:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
DanielCM wrote:I wish you two were on the cpm.
Do you really hate this game me that much?
There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
1222
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 21:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
APEX suits are nowhere near P2W.
Will you ever see one in a competitive PC match? No.
But they are viable for pubs matches, which is good. When getting proto stomped all day, noobs should have an option to keep playing and not go broke.
I'm not sure how I feel about customization of APEX, kinda thought the being non-customizable was the entire point.
We'll see how it ends up working, but if it were up to me, I'd support limited customization. IE: you can choose which variant of the main weapon you want, or sidearm, or choose from a few modules
Who cares what some sniper has to say.
**--CCP, let's push for the license of Dust/Legion on both current Gen consoles-
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Knightshade Belladonna
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
1479
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 21:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
They could turn them into skins also .. I think APEX suits need to lose a lot of their cpu also.. but I like the fact you can customize. |
DanielCM
TO THE DEATH
17
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 21:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
I feel at least you'd say no. In my head this is what happens.
CCP: we're gonna do this
CPM: cool
(In private) CPM: yay rattati spoke to me
Obviously I'm probably completely wrong |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8517
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 22:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
DanielCM wrote:I feel at least you'd say no. In my head this is what happens.
CCP: we're gonna do this
CPM: cool
(In private) CPM: yay rattati spoke to me
Obviously I'm probably completely wrong
I'm not enamored with the whole "Must lose ISK every time" bit. Yes, it's about risk. No, BPOs really don't save you that much ISK.
I run around in freefit BPOs all the time, loaded to the brim with all of the most potent of militia grade BPOs!
Total cost per suit without BPO: 5,500 ISK. average profit after my averaged out losses of 7-10 per match?
150,000-300,000 ISK
Gee dem BPO fits be severely breakin' de economy there.
there's a fine line between "I believe choices should have consequences" and "I don't think anyone deserves an advantage or break under any circumstances."
this one's treading the latter, and bluntly if more people are having fun it's good for the game. If the sole reason for the objection is "I think you should be losing more of your money" then grow up a little. If the game isn't fun, the game isn't worth playing.
if your fun is lessened by the lack of measurable loss on the part of your opponent, then I'm afraid that you aren't going to enjoy meeting me in combat. Because i have found there's little difference between a BPO suit and a proto suit once you have the relevant skills maxed out. One just means you have to fight slightly smarter.
There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
|
DanielCM
TO THE DEATH
17
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Posted - 2015.05.09 22:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:DanielCM wrote:I feel at least you'd say no. In my head this is what happens.
CCP: we're gonna do this
CPM: cool
(In private) CPM: yay rattati spoke to me
Obviously I'm probably completely wrong I'm not enamored with the whole "Must lose ISK every time" bit. Yes, it's about risk. No, BPOs really don't save you that much ISK. I run around in freefit BPOs all the time, loaded to the brim with all of the most potent of militia grade BPOs! Total cost per suit without BPO: 5,500 ISK. average profit after my averaged out losses of 7-10 per match? 150,000-300,000 ISK Gee dem BPO fits be severely breakin' de economy there. there's a fine line between "I believe choices should have consequences" and "I don't think anyone deserves an advantage or break under any circumstances." this one's treading the latter, and bluntly if more people are having fun it's good for the game. If the sole reason for the objection is "I think you should be losing more of your money" then grow up a little. If the game isn't fun, the game isn't worth playing. if your fun is lessened by the lack of measurable loss on the part of your opponent, then I'm afraid that you aren't going to enjoy meeting me in combat. Because i have found there's little difference between a BPO suit and a proto suit once you have the relevant skills maxed out. One just means you have to fight slightly smarter.
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with either of you just merely commenting on the fact that you both make half decent stands on your point of view. It was more to do with reading many, many threads you've both posted in.
Concerning this, well like you I play for fun and use bpo, std and adv at most unless I'm drunk and I'll lose a few proto suits. I just think with apex suits we were told "this is what they are" why change it cus a few people hinged? |
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DanielCM
TO THE DEATH
17
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Posted - 2015.05.09 22:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
Or whinged, whatever phone |
shaman oga
Dead Man's Game
4630
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 22:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
I would not worry too much.
Once metalock will become a thing, APEX and normal BPO will be almost on par again.
Shaman's Shack - A place to trade
Training to be a packed RE master launcher
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
9989
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 23:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
Assuming one could have any less fun by spending ISK on the same gear.
Which usually results in anyone who hasn't been enjoying nonstop PC ISK farming exploits over the last year to go thoroughly broke. Because we all know that being broke in DUST 514 and having to use nothing but standard/militia is an amazing experience! I give it a 10 out of 10 for happiness and fulfillment! Just in case you really are that oblivious, that is what we call "sarcasm."
Stay on topic, please. Really going out of my way to be civil with you here, I'd appreciate the same respect.
As far as nonstop PC ISK farming exploits - that's a thing of the past. That was done away with a long time ago. Sure, there are some stragglers who have giant wealths of ISK, but they're not generating ISK passively anymore. Further more, PC ISK farming (in the past) isn't an adequate correlation or evidence as to why BPO's should exist. If such were the case we could say that, because Contact Grenades were broken once, the Ion Pistol should be now over-powered to compensate for the losses.
You can't in one hand say that the ISK gains aren't enough to matter and in the other hand say that without BPO's you'd suffer being broke and having to spend that same ISK on Standard/Militia gear. It's contradictory in a way.
Talos Vagheitan wrote:APEX suits are nowhere near P2W.
Will you ever see one in a competitive PC match? No.
But they are viable for pubs matches, which is good. When getting proto stomped all day, noobs should have an option to keep playing and not go broke.
P2W, again, is just a keyword to heighten a difference in preference and opinion. It's a paid for advantage that isn't nearly as feasible to attain via in-game methods.
And I'd be totally fine with new players having that option, but at some point you have to lose the training wheels and put your big boy shorts on. APEX suits wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue if they disappeared after you hit a certain level of SP. If you're having problems staying ISK positive as a veteran player then maybe you need to re-evaluate your risk assessment.
Breakin Stuff wrote:
I'm not enamored with the whole "Must lose ISK every time" bit. Yes, it's about risk. No, BPOs really don't save you that much ISK.
I run around in freefit BPOs all the time, loaded to the brim with all of the most potent of militia grade BPOs!
Total cost per suit without BPO: 5,500 ISK. average profit after my averaged out losses of 7-10 per match?
150,000-300,000 ISK
Gee dem BPO fits be severely breakin' de economy there.
there's a fine line between "I believe choices should have consequences" and "I don't think anyone deserves an advantage or break under any circumstances."
this one's treading the latter, and bluntly if more people are having fun it's good for the game. If the sole reason for the objection is "I think you should be losing more of your money" then grow up a little. If the game isn't fun, the game isn't worth playing.
if your fun is lessened by the lack of measurable loss on the part of your opponent, then I'm afraid that you aren't going to enjoy meeting me in combat. Because i have found there's little difference between a BPO suit and a proto suit once you have the relevant skills maxed out. One just means you have to fight slightly smarter.
Please explain how running BPOs/APEXs, by comparison to running ISK-paid gear of an equivalent nature, in any way heightens the entertainment value of this game to form that as a suitable argument as to be an exception to 'The Endless Cycle' design this game is built on.
Please also explain at what point 'fun' starts/stops being a justification for an exception in a core game design.
You guys are like a broken record with this "CPM material" business xD Let it go
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LOL KILLZ
LulKlz
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 23:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP want money to develop your game, IM IN.
CEO of LulKlz/ chat channel LulKlz, code 0000 <--- numbers
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Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
2305
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 23:20:00 -
[25] - Quote
CCP Z and Legion Progression 1.0 Is my answer to what ever the original question was.
Current bpo states are (finally? ) play-testing the Legion progression model.
Better netcoding and plugged memory leaks. Last pieces of the broken puzlzle.
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
9990
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 23:24:00 -
[26] - Quote
Soldner VonKuechle wrote:CCP Z and Legion Progression 1.0 Is my answer to what ever the original question was.
Current bpo states are (finally? ) play-testing the Legion progression model.
-Sound of glass breaking as he stares at the ******* screen with a thousand yard stare-
You guys are like a broken record with this "CPM material" business xD Let it go
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Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
2305
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 23:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:CCP Z and Legion Progression 1.0 Is my answer to what ever the original question was.
Current bpo states are (finally? ) play-testing the Legion progression model. -Sound of glass breaking as he stares at the ******* screen with a thousand yard stare-
Would you like eye drops or a new tinfoil hat?
Better netcoding and plugged memory leaks. Last pieces of the broken puzlzle.
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
9990
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 23:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:CCP Z and Legion Progression 1.0 Is my answer to what ever the original question was.
Current bpo states are (finally? ) play-testing the Legion progression model. -Sound of glass breaking as he stares at the ******* screen with a thousand yard stare- Would you like eye drops or a new tinfoil hat?
Well, like I just said in Talos' thread. (shameless copy/paste)
Now, considering Soldner completely broke me as a person with the startling realization that customizable APEX BPOs are pretty much -exactly- what CCP Z was going for with the whole "only BPO will be your dropsuit" thing; that is also an acceptable alternative -IF AND ONLY IF- that benefit applies TO ALL PLAYERS, not just those that pay or sit through dozens/hundreds of hours in FW.
You guys are like a broken record with this "CPM material" business xD Let it go
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Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
2306
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 23:31:00 -
[29] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:CCP Z and Legion Progression 1.0 Is my answer to what ever the original question was.
Current bpo states are (finally? ) play-testing the Legion progression model. -Sound of glass breaking as he stares at the ******* screen with a thousand yard stare- Would you like eye drops or a new tinfoil hat? Well, like I just said in Talos' thread. (shameless copy/paste) Now, considering Soldner completely broke me as a person with the startling realization that customizable APEX BPOs are pretty much -exactly- what CCP Z was going for with the whole "only BPO will be your dropsuit" thing; that is also an acceptable alternative -IF AND ONLY IF- that benefit applies TO ALL PLAYERS, not just those that pay or sit through dozens/hundreds of hours in FW.
Sorry bud. Called ut the second apex came into play months ago.
We're just getting further down that mmo rabbit hole now.
At least the is movement behind the curatain?
Better netcoding and plugged memory leaks. Last pieces of the broken puzlzle.
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
9991
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 23:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:CCP Z and Legion Progression 1.0 Is my answer to what ever the original question was.
Current bpo states are (finally? ) play-testing the Legion progression model. -Sound of glass breaking as he stares at the ******* screen with a thousand yard stare- Would you like eye drops or a new tinfoil hat? Well, like I just said in Talos' thread. (shameless copy/paste) Now, considering Soldner completely broke me as a person with the startling realization that customizable APEX BPOs are pretty much -exactly- what CCP Z was going for with the whole "only BPO will be your dropsuit" thing; that is also an acceptable alternative -IF AND ONLY IF- that benefit applies TO ALL PLAYERS, not just those that pay or sit through dozens/hundreds of hours in FW. Sorry bud. Called ut the second apex came into play months ago. We're just getting further down that mmo rabbit hole now. At least the is movement behind the curatain?
Well, I'm open to the concept. I really don't mind it. But APEXs / BPOs as they are right now need to go, imo.
You guys are like a broken record with this "CPM material" business xD Let it go
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Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
2306
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Posted - 2015.05.09 23:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
-Sound of glass breaking as he stares at the ******* screen with a thousand yard stare-
Would you like eye drops or a new tinfoil hat? Well, like I just said in Talos' thread. (shameless copy/paste) Now, considering Soldner completely broke me as a person with the startling realization that customizable APEX BPOs are pretty much -exactly- what CCP Z was going for with the whole "only BPO will be your dropsuit" thing; that is also an acceptable alternative -IF AND ONLY IF- that benefit applies TO ALL PLAYERS, not just those that pay or sit through dozens/hundreds of hours in FW. Sorry bud. Called ut the second apex came into play months ago. We're just getting further down that mmo rabbit hole now. At least the is movement behind the curatain? Well, I'm open to the concept. I really don't mind it. But APEXs / BPOs as they are right now need to go, imo.
wanting an every one gets one or no one does approach to it?
Better netcoding and plugged memory leaks. Last pieces of the broken puzlzle.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8531
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Posted - 2015.05.10 00:10:00 -
[32] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
Please also explain at what point 'fun' starts/stops being a justification for an exception in a core game design.
Even EVE is slowly being revamped in favor of player enjoyment rather than an eternal hate engine powered by spreadsheets.
"Fun" is at the core of every successful game. By appealing to this concept more than frustration, you get a higher playerbase, and thus more people to kick the teeth in on.
APEX are hardly the equal of prototype ISK fits, or even full ADV fits. If you want to play with the good toys, you have to pay.
If you want to play cheap and easy, you can use fits intended to be that.
There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3041
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Posted - 2015.05.10 01:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:And before anyone brings up the 'They're not pay to win because you can get them from FW' argument...
Pay-to-win changes in meaning depending on the arguer. That's always been the case. The goalpost for the Pay-to-Win definition continuously moves around to justify certain things and eventually it's just a keyword that people use to argue whether or not something should be in the game when it's really just a difference of opinion.
Here's the facts:
BPOs and APEX BPOs take away the feeling of risk and loss from this game. You don't have to worry about ISK expenditure and no matter how you want to justify it (availability in LP store, the ****** Eve Online 'noob ship' argument that people parrot while having no idea what they're talking about) the fact of the matter is this: In case of the APEX BPO, you field a powerful suit that is capable of versatility that standard BPO's simply cannot match. Sure, you can put on Complex modules and what not on a standard BPO, but you will never have the diverse effects of maximum fitting slots - this is where the power of higher tiered suits comes from to begin with outside of better PG/CPU.
The customization of APEX suits puts a precedent that, if you want to win in this game, you have to pay up. That, if you want an endless ISK source that is generated while you make minimal changes to your gameplay performance, you need to chalk up a few bucks. This effect is permanent and the argument was originally that "we don't have a market, we don't have an economy" - well, now we do.
We have a way to sell assets to an NPC vendor for raw ISK, we have an ability to trade items (that will eventually include things besides just officer gear). Yes, we have an economy now, even if it is rudimentary. Consider the effects that are brought on by the following:
The value of Standard Gear compared to a single BPO.
The value of a BPO compared to an APEX BPO.
Why would you ever buy a standard -anything- when you can just buy the one BPO and be done with it, PERMANENTLY?
Why would you ever buy a BPO if you can customize an APEX BPO, PERMANENTLY?
Regardless of how little of an impact they've made, they've still made an impact. There is simply no reason at all to purchase standard ISK variant suits/weapons anymore because BPO's replace them and give you the functionality of never having to spend ISK on them again; essentially creating an ISK faucet. The two most expensive items in the game are Suits and Weapons - both of which conveniently have BPO availability.
In the scope of the economy, these things are monstrous. I really can't wrap my head around why the Dust 514 community cannot see that or care about that.
This entire argument is symptomatic of needing to tiericide suits the way tanks were. Give all tiers the proto slot layout of their respective suit, and have fitting increase as you go up the tiers. That would make APEX just a different color BPO.
Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
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thor424
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
158
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Posted - 2015.05.10 01:46:00 -
[34] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I approve of this uncertain future, move that we immediately tiericide dropsuits and increase all other modules costs to compensate for the loss of equivalent dropsuit cost.
If module cost increased, but equipment costs decreased I'd really get behind that.
Thor's Emporium
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8540
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Posted - 2015.05.10 02:12:00 -
[35] - Quote
thor424 wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:I approve of this uncertain future, move that we immediately tiericide dropsuits and increase all other modules costs to compensate for the loss of equivalent dropsuit cost. If module cost increased, but equipment costs decreased I'd really get behind that.
considering logis are the most overpriced suits in the game?
Hmmmm, let me think...
Ummm, Sure!
There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
9997
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Posted - 2015.05.10 06:02:00 -
[36] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
Please also explain at what point 'fun' starts/stops being a justification for an exception in a core game design.
Even EVE is slowly being revamped in favor of player enjoyment rather than an eternal hate engine powered by spreadsheets. "Fun" is at the core of every successful game. By appealing to this concept more than frustration, you get a higher playerbase, and thus more people to kick the teeth in on. APEX are hardly the equal of prototype ISK fits, or even full ADV fits. If you want to play with the good toys, you have to pay. If you want to play cheap and easy, you can use fits intended to be that.
Eve Online isn't making changes for 'Fun' as the primary goal, they're subtracting useless and complex mechanics that offer nothing in the way of feature or function.
Learning Skills, for instance. Those things were taken out because all they did was create a mandatory skill training barrier for new players that forced them to spend weeks/months training up otherwise useless BS so that they could train things faster.
Medical Clone Grades, which only served the purpose of punishing players who forgot to upgrade their clone when they got podded.
Stuff like that wasn't changed because it was otherwise 'fun', it was changed because they were functionless features that offered absolutely nothing in return for their being an artificial barrier/punishment for not keeping up with them.
You guys are like a broken record with this "CPM material" business xD Let it go
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6230
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Posted - 2015.05.10 06:08:00 -
[37] - Quote
Could just give all tiers the same number of slots and you would no longer see a difference between APEX and Standard BPOs other than the fact that the APEX comes pre-fit.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
9998
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Posted - 2015.05.10 06:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Could just give all tiers the same number of slots and you would no longer see a difference between APEX and Standard BPOs other than the fact that the APEX comes pre-fit.
Honestly, think they should just do away with power-levels all together and just make all the dropsuits BPOs. Adhere to CCP Z's progression plan and it'd iron out a -lot- of freaggin issues.
You guys are like a broken record with this "CPM material" business xD Let it go
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6230
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Posted - 2015.05.10 06:33:00 -
[39] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Could just give all tiers the same number of slots and you would no longer see a difference between APEX and Standard BPOs other than the fact that the APEX comes pre-fit. Honestly, think they should just do away with power-levels all together and just make all the dropsuits BPOs. Adhere to CCP Z's progression plan and it'd iron out a -lot- of freaggin issues.
Eh I don't think that's entirely necessary. You can still have tiers of suits with increasing resource pools but with all of the same slot layout between tiers. Plus I'm sure there is some income from AUR BPC suit sales, and you wouldn't want to make everything a BPO given the fact that quite a lot of money comes from BPO sales and if all suits are BPOs, that would basically remove the value of the BPO that players purchased. I imagine it would be quite the quagmire to deal with, so its probably best that we stick with the BPO and BPC system we currently have in Dust rather than move to all BPOs
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
10014
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Posted - 2015.05.10 13:41:00 -
[40] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Could just give all tiers the same number of slots and you would no longer see a difference between APEX and Standard BPOs other than the fact that the APEX comes pre-fit. Honestly, think they should just do away with power-levels all together and just make all the dropsuits BPOs. Adhere to CCP Z's progression plan and it'd iron out a -lot- of freaggin issues. Eh I don't think that's entirely necessary. You can still have tiers of suits with increasing resource pools but with all of the same slot layout between tiers. Plus I'm sure there is some income from AUR BPC suit sales, and you wouldn't want to make everything a BPO given the fact that quite a lot of money comes from BPO sales and if all suits are BPOs, that would basically remove the value of the BPO that players purchased. I imagine it would be quite the quagmire to deal with, so its probably best that we stick with the BPO and BPC system we currently have in Dust rather than move to all BPOs
All I read from that is that the game has to suffer because people feel entitled to a previous purchase.
Power levels are bullshit. They serve no purpose other than to create artificial disparity and the only beneficial function they could possibly serve is a cheap feeling of "progression", which immediately goes away once you've achieved said progression.
You guys are like a broken record with this "CPM material" business xD Let it go
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deezy dabest
2222
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Posted - 2015.05.10 18:28:00 -
[41] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:And before anyone brings up the 'They're not pay to win because you can get them from FW' argument...
Pay-to-win changes in meaning depending on the arguer. That's always been the case. The goalpost for the Pay-to-Win definition continuously moves around to justify certain things and eventually it's just a keyword that people use to argue whether or not something should be in the game when it's really just a difference of opinion.
Here's the facts:
BPOs and APEX BPOs take away the feeling of risk and loss from this game. You don't have to worry about ISK expenditure and no matter how you want to justify it (availability in LP store, the ****** Eve Online 'noob ship' argument that people parrot while having no idea what they're talking about) the fact of the matter is this: In case of the APEX BPO, you field a powerful suit that is capable of versatility that standard BPO's simply cannot match. Sure, you can put on Complex modules and what not on a standard BPO, but you will never have the diverse effects of maximum fitting slots - this is where the power of higher tiered suits comes from to begin with outside of better PG/CPU.
The customization of APEX suits puts a precedent that, if you want to win in this game, you have to pay up. That, if you want an endless ISK source that is generated while you make minimal changes to your gameplay performance, you need to chalk up a few bucks. This effect is permanent and the argument was originally that "we don't have a market, we don't have an economy" - well, now we do.
We have a way to sell assets to an NPC vendor for raw ISK, we have an ability to trade items (that will eventually include things besides just officer gear). Yes, we have an economy now, even if it is rudimentary. Consider the effects that are brought on by the following:
The value of Standard Gear compared to a single BPO.
The value of a BPO compared to an APEX BPO.
Why would you ever buy a standard -anything- when you can just buy the one BPO and be done with it, PERMANENTLY?
Why would you ever buy a BPO if you can customize an APEX BPO, PERMANENTLY?
Regardless of how little of an impact they've made, they've still made an impact. There is simply no reason at all to purchase standard ISK variant suits/weapons anymore because BPO's replace them and give you the functionality of never having to spend ISK on them again; essentially creating an ISK faucet. The two most expensive items in the game are Suits and Weapons - both of which conveniently have BPO availability.
In the scope of the economy, these things are monstrous. I really can't wrap my head around why the Dust 514 community cannot see that or care about that.
You still did not say anything to counter the fact that they can be bought without spending a single dollar. The fact that they are more powerful than BPOs that can be bought for cash actually offsets any pay to win argument.
As far as them creating an ISK faucet goes you are correct in the fact that they generate a surplus of ISK but calling it a faucet is maybe a bit over stating it. For a novice player that does not have the core skills behind everything on the suit they are difficult to capitalize on their cost because they just do not score the kind of points needed to generate a large payout. For a fully specialized veteran they are a way to make money to be able to run higher level, properly fitted suits which means the need to balance risk versus reward is very much still alive.
When it comes to the economy they are going to be great for the overall economy once they are able to be traded. Just like in Eve they will provide an alternative for new players to buy them for cash and sell them. Once this happens and those new players start spamming out proto gear that payout filters to everyone through the new PC battle payout system and through pub matches.
The only thing missing on the economy is a way to viably create ISK so that this system can function like it really should to make CCP lots of money and make the Dust experience more enjoyable for everyone. I really hope that CCP recognizes this quickly so that we do not yet again see all of the power fall into the hands of those who took advantage of a broken PC system for so long. |
Username Alpha
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2015.05.10 19:01:00 -
[42] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
BPOs and APEX BPOs take away the feeling of risk and loss from this game. You don't have to worry about ISK expenditure and no matter how you want to justify it (availability in LP store, the ****** Eve Online 'noob ship' argument that people parrot while having no idea what they're talking about) the fact of the matter is this: In case of the APEX BPO, you field a powerful suit that is capable of versatility that standard BPO's simply cannot match. Sure, you can put on Complex modules and what not on a standard BPO, but you will never have the diverse effects of maximum fitting slots - this is where the power of higher tiered suits comes from to begin with outside of better PG/CPU.
The customization of APEX suits puts a precedent that, if you want to win in this game, you have to pay up. That, if you want an endless ISK source that is generated while you make minimal changes to your gameplay performance, you need to chalk up a few bucks. This effect is permanent and the argument was originally that "we don't have a market, we don't have an economy" - well, now we do.
You still did not say anything to counter the fact that they can be bought without spending a single dollar. The fact that they are more powerful than BPOs that can be bought for cash actually offsets any pay to win argument. As far as them creating an ISK faucet goes you are correct in the fact that they generate a surplus of ISK but calling it a faucet is maybe a bit over stating it. For a novice player that does not have the core skills behind everything on the suit they are difficult to capitalize on their cost because they just do not score the kind of points needed to generate a large payout. For a fully specialized veteran they are a way to make money to be able to run higher level, properly fitted suits which means the need to balance risk versus reward is very much still alive. When it comes to the economy they are going to be great for the overall economy once they are able to be traded. Just like in Eve they will provide an alternative for new players to buy them for cash and sell them. Once this happens and those new players start spamming out proto gear that payout filters to everyone through the new PC battle payout system and through pub matches. The only thing missing on the economy is a way to viably create ISK so that this system can function like it really should to make CCP lots of money and make the Dust experience more enjoyable for everyone. I really hope that CCP recognizes this quickly so that we do not yet again see all of the power fall into the hands of those who took advantage of a broken PC system for so long.
I believe that what Aeon was alluding to in the portion of his post I did not snip was that an average player would have to do such a ridiculous amount of grinding to get the LP suits (losing ISK the whole way due to no-payout FW, or using (shudder) starter BPO loadouts) that using them as justification that APEX suits aren't PTW is disingenuous.
I really don't think "ISK faucet" overstates the situation. Even novice players either save huge amounts of ISK via avoiding losses when they die, or if they are using starter BPO loadouts give themselves a massive performance bonus, likely increasing payouts quite a bit even for noobs. For veteran players, you admit it's an ISK faucet, so I will leave your claim that "should I run APEX or proto this game?" is a healthy risk/reward state for the game for another time.
I believe you're equating BPOs in DUST with PLEX in EVE and there is a difference: you don't use up BPOs. Considering the rate of influx of new players willing to spend boatloads of cash on BPOs to trade for proto gear they won't have forever, I question your assertion that this is a long-term viable economy solution. Unless you believe that it is a short term solution that will last long enough for DUST to die before the economy crashes?
If there was a way to "viably create ISK" beyond the current payout system, why would people even need to sell BPOs at all? Unless you mean a "veteran-exclusive" way, that definitely sounds like a good and not terrible idea. |
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