Well, I'm open to the concept. I really don't mind it. But APEXs / BPOs as they are right now need to go, imo.

Please also explain at what point 'fun' starts/stops being a justification for an exception in a core game design.

And before anyone brings up the 'They're not pay to win because you can get them from FW' argument...

Pay-to-win changes in meaning depending on the arguer. That's always been the case. The goalpost for the Pay-to-Win definition continuously moves around to justify certain things and eventually it's just a keyword that people use to argue whether or not something should be in the game when it's really just a difference of opinion.

Here's the facts:

BPOs and APEX BPOs take away the feeling of risk and loss from this game. You don't have to worry about ISK expenditure and no matter how you want to justify it (availability in LP store, the ****** Eve Online 'noob ship' argument that people parrot while having no idea what they're talking about) the fact of the matter is this: In case of the APEX BPO, you field a powerful suit that is capable of versatility that standard BPO's simply cannot match. Sure, you can put on Complex modules and what not on a standard BPO, but you will never have the diverse effects of maximum fitting slots - this is where the power of higher tiered suits comes from to begin with outside of better PG/CPU.

The customization of APEX suits puts a precedent that, if you want to win in this game, you have to pay up. That, if you want an endless ISK source that is generated while you make minimal changes to your gameplay performance, you need to chalk up a few bucks. This effect is permanent and the argument was originally that "we don't have a market, we don't have an economy" - well, now we do.

We have a way to sell assets to an NPC vendor for raw ISK, we have an ability to trade items (that will eventually include things besides just officer gear). Yes, we have an economy now, even if it is rudimentary. Consider the effects that are brought on by the following:

The value of Standard Gear compared to a single BPO.
The value of a BPO compared to an APEX BPO.

Why would you ever buy a standard -anything- when you can just buy the one BPO and be done with it, PERMANENTLY?
Why would you ever buy a BPO if you can customize an APEX BPO, PERMANENTLY?

Regardless of how little of an impact they've made, they've still made an impact. There is simply no reason at all to purchase standard ISK variant suits/weapons anymore because BPO's replace them and give you the functionality of never having to spend ISK on them again; essentially creating an ISK faucet. The two most expensive items in the game are Suits and Weapons - both of which conveniently have BPO availability.

In the scope of the economy, these things are monstrous. I really can't wrap my head around why the Dust 514 community cannot see that or care about that.

I approve of this uncertain future, move that we immediately tiericide dropsuits and increase all other modules costs to compensate for the loss of equivalent dropsuit cost.

If module cost increased, but equipment costs decreased I'd really get behind that.

Even EVE is slowly being revamped in favor of player enjoyment rather than an eternal hate engine powered by spreadsheets.

"Fun" is at the core of every successful game. By appealing to this concept more than frustration, you get a higher playerbase, and thus more people to kick the teeth in on.

APEX are hardly the equal of prototype ISK fits, or even full ADV fits. If you want to play with the good toys, you have to pay.

If you want to play cheap and easy, you can use fits intended to be that.

Could just give all tiers the same number of slots and you would no longer see a difference between APEX and Standard BPOs other than the fact that the APEX comes pre-fit.

Honestly, think they should just do away with power-levels all together and just make all the dropsuits BPOs. Adhere to CCP Z's progression plan and it'd iron out a -lot- of freaggin issues.

Eh I don't think that's entirely necessary. You can still have tiers of suits with increasing resource pools but with all of the same slot layout between tiers. Plus I'm sure there is some income from AUR BPC suit sales, and you wouldn't want to make everything a BPO given the fact that quite a lot of money comes from BPO sales and if all suits are BPOs, that would basically remove the value of the BPO that players purchased. I imagine it would be quite the quagmire to deal with, so its probably best that we stick with the BPO and BPC system we currently have in Dust rather than move to all BPOs

And before anyone brings up the 'They're not pay to win because you can get them from FW' argument...

Pay-to-win changes in meaning depending on the arguer. That's always been the case. The goalpost for the Pay-to-Win definition continuously moves around to justify certain things and eventually it's just a keyword that people use to argue whether or not something should be in the game when it's really just a difference of opinion.

Here's the facts:

BPOs and APEX BPOs take away the feeling of risk and loss from this game. You don't have to worry about ISK expenditure and no matter how you want to justify it (availability in LP store, the ****** Eve Online 'noob ship' argument that people parrot while having no idea what they're talking about) the fact of the matter is this: In case of the APEX BPO, you field a powerful suit that is capable of versatility that standard BPO's simply cannot match. Sure, you can put on Complex modules and what not on a standard BPO, but you will never have the diverse effects of maximum fitting slots - this is where the power of higher tiered suits comes from to begin with outside of better PG/CPU.

The customization of APEX suits puts a precedent that, if you want to win in this game, you have to pay up. That, if you want an endless ISK source that is generated while you make minimal changes to your gameplay performance, you need to chalk up a few bucks. This effect is permanent and the argument was originally that "we don't have a market, we don't have an economy" - well, now we do.

We have a way to sell assets to an NPC vendor for raw ISK, we have an ability to trade items (that will eventually include things besides just officer gear). Yes, we have an economy now, even if it is rudimentary. Consider the effects that are brought on by the following:

The value of Standard Gear compared to a single BPO.
The value of a BPO compared to an APEX BPO.

Why would you ever buy a standard -anything- when you can just buy the one BPO and be done with it, PERMANENTLY?
Why would you ever buy a BPO if you can customize an APEX BPO, PERMANENTLY?

Regardless of how little of an impact they've made, they've still made an impact. There is simply no reason at all to purchase standard ISK variant suits/weapons anymore because BPO's replace them and give you the functionality of never having to spend ISK on them again; essentially creating an ISK faucet. The two most expensive items in the game are Suits and Weapons - both of which conveniently have BPO availability.

In the scope of the economy, these things are monstrous. I really can't wrap my head around why the Dust 514 community cannot see that or care about that.

You still did not say anything to counter the fact that they can be bought without spending a single dollar. The fact that they are more powerful than BPOs that can be bought for cash actually offsets any pay to win argument.

As far as them creating an ISK faucet goes you are correct in the fact that they generate a surplus of ISK but calling it a faucet is maybe a bit over stating it. For a novice player that does not have the core skills behind everything on the suit they are difficult to capitalize on their cost because they just do not score the kind of points needed to generate a large payout. For a fully specialized veteran they are a way to make money to be able to run higher level, properly fitted suits which means the need to balance risk versus reward is very much still alive.

When it comes to the economy they are going to be great for the overall economy once they are able to be traded. Just like in Eve they will provide an alternative for new players to buy them for cash and sell them. Once this happens and those new players start spamming out proto gear that payout filters to everyone through the new PC battle payout system and through pub matches.

The only thing missing on the economy is a way to viably create ISK so that this system can function like it really should to make CCP lots of money and make the Dust experience more enjoyable for everyone. I really hope that CCP recognizes this quickly so that we do not yet again see all of the power fall into the hands of those who took advantage of a broken PC system for so long.