DUST Search - The Future of BPO's

Aeon Amadi wrote:

And before anyone brings up the 'They're not pay to win because you can get them from FW' argument...

Pay-to-win changes in meaning depending on the arguer. That's always been the case. The goalpost for the Pay-to-Win definition continuously moves around to justify certain things and eventually it's just a keyword that people use to argue whether or not something should be in the game when it's really just a difference of opinion.

Here's the facts:

BPOs and APEX BPOs take away the feeling of risk and loss from this game. You don't have to worry about ISK expenditure and no matter how you want to justify it (availability in LP store, the ****** Eve Online 'noob ship' argument that people parrot while having no idea what they're talking about) the fact of the matter is this: In case of the APEX BPO, you field a powerful suit that is capable of versatility that standard BPO's simply cannot match. Sure, you can put on Complex modules and what not on a standard BPO, but you will never have the diverse effects of maximum fitting slots - this is where the power of higher tiered suits comes from to begin with outside of better PG/CPU.

The customization of APEX suits puts a precedent that, if you want to win in this game, you have to pay up. That, if you want an endless ISK source that is generated while you make minimal changes to your gameplay performance, you need to chalk up a few bucks. This effect is permanent and the argument was originally that "we don't have a market, we don't have an economy" - well, now we do.

We have a way to sell assets to an NPC vendor for raw ISK, we have an ability to trade items (that will eventually include things besides just officer gear). Yes, we have an economy now, even if it is rudimentary. Consider the effects that are brought on by the following:

The value of Standard Gear compared to a single BPO.
The value of a BPO compared to an APEX BPO.

Why would you ever buy a standard -anything- when you can just buy the one BPO and be done with it, PERMANENTLY?
Why would you ever buy a BPO if you can customize an APEX BPO, PERMANENTLY?

Regardless of how little of an impact they've made, they've still made an impact. There is simply no reason at all to purchase standard ISK variant suits/weapons anymore because BPO's replace them and give you the functionality of never having to spend ISK on them again; essentially creating an ISK faucet. The two most expensive items in the game are Suits and Weapons - both of which conveniently have BPO availability.

In the scope of the economy, these things are monstrous. I really can't wrap my head around why the Dust 514 community cannot see that or care about that.

There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!


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Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8509	Posted - 2015.05.09 20:51:00 - [1] - Quote I approve of this uncertain future, move that we immediately tiericide dropsuits and increase all other modules costs to compensate for the loss of equivalent dropsuit cost. There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8510	Posted - 2015.05.09 21:00:00 - [2] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: And before anyone brings up the 'They're not pay to win because you can get them from FW' argument... Pay-to-win changes in meaning depending on the arguer. That's always been the case. The goalpost for the Pay-to-Win definition continuously moves around to justify certain things and eventually it's just a keyword that people use to argue whether or not something should be in the game when it's really just a difference of opinion. Here's the facts: BPOs and APEX BPOs take away the feeling of risk and loss from this game. You don't have to worry about ISK expenditure and no matter how you want to justify it (availability in LP store, the **** Eve Online 'noob ship' argument that people parrot while having no idea what they're talking about) the fact of the matter is this: In case of the APEX BPO, you field a powerful suit that is capable of versatility that standard BPO's simply cannot match. Sure, you can put on Complex modules and what not on a standard BPO, but you will never have the diverse effects of maximum fitting slots - this is where the power of higher tiered suits comes from to begin with outside of better PG/CPU. The customization of APEX suits puts a precedent that, if you want to win in this game, you have to pay up. That, if you want an endless ISK source that is generated while you make minimal changes to your gameplay performance, you need to chalk up a few bucks. This effect is permanent and the argument was originally that "we don't have a market, we don't have an economy" - well, now we do. We have a way to sell assets to an NPC vendor for raw ISK, we have an ability to trade items (that will eventually include things besides just officer gear). Yes, we have an economy now, even if it is rudimentary. Consider the effects that are brought on by the following: The value of Standard Gear compared to a single BPO. The value of a BPO compared to an APEX BPO. Why would you ever buy a standard -anything- when you can just buy the one BPO and be done with it, PERMANENTLY? Why would you ever buy a BPO if you can customize an APEX BPO, PERMANENTLY? Regardless of how little of an impact they've made, they've still made an impact. There is simply no reason at all to purchase standard ISK variant suits/weapons anymore because BPO's replace them and give you the functionality of never having to spend ISK on them again; essentially creating an ISK faucet. The two most expensive items in the game are Suits and Weapons - both of which conveniently have BPO availability. In the scope of the economy, these things are monstrous. I really can't wrap my head around why the Dust 514 community cannot see that or care about that. Because the concept of FUN trumps your concept of how the world should work. There's never enough shposting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8515	Posted - 2015.05.09 21:30:00 - [3] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Assuming one could have any less fun by spending ISK on the same gear. Which usually results in anyone who hasn't been enjoying nonstop PC ISK farming exploits over the last year to go thoroughly broke. Because we all know that being broke in DUST 514 and having to use nothing but standard/militia is an amazing experience! I give it a 10 out of 10 for happiness and fulfillment! Just in case you really are that oblivious, that is what we call "sarcasm." There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8517	Posted - 2015.05.09 21:52:00 - [4] - Quote DanielCM wrote: I wish you two were on the cpm. Do you really hate ~~this game~~ me that much? There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8517	Posted - 2015.05.09 22:05:00 - [5] - Quote DanielCM wrote: I feel at least you'd say no. In my head this is what happens. CCP: we're gonna do this CPM: cool (In private) CPM: yay rattati spoke to me Obviously I'm probably completely wrong I'm not enamored with the whole "Must lose ISK every time" bit. Yes, it's about risk. No, BPOs really don't save you that much ISK. I run around in freefit BPOs all the time, loaded to the brim with all of the most potent of militia grade BPOs! Total cost per suit without BPO: 5,500 ISK. average profit after my averaged out losses of 7-10 per match? 150,000-300,000 ISK Gee dem BPO fits be severely breakin' de economy there. there's a fine line between "I believe choices should have consequences" and "I don't think anyone deserves an advantage or break under any circumstances." this one's treading the latter, and bluntly if more people are having fun it's good for the game. If the sole reason for the objection is "I think you should be losing more of your money" then grow up a little. If the game isn't fun, the game isn't worth playing. if your fun is lessened by the lack of measurable loss on the part of your opponent, then I'm afraid that you aren't going to enjoy meeting me in combat. Because i have found there's little difference between a BPO suit and a proto suit once you have the relevant skills maxed out. One just means you have to fight slightly smarter. There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8531	Posted - 2015.05.10 00:10:00 - [6] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Please also explain at what point 'fun' starts/stops being a justification for an exception in a core game design. Even EVE is slowly being revamped in favor of player enjoyment rather than an eternal hate engine powered by spreadsheets. "Fun" is at the core of every successful game. By appealing to this concept more than frustration, you get a higher playerbase, and thus more people to kick the teeth in on. APEX are hardly the equal of prototype ISK fits, or even full ADV fits. If you want to play with the good toys, you have to pay. If you want to play cheap and easy, you can use fits intended to be that. There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8540	Posted - 2015.05.10 02:12:00 - [7] - Quote thor424 wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I approve of this uncertain future, move that we immediately tiericide dropsuits and increase all other modules costs to compensate for the loss of equivalent dropsuit cost. If module cost increased, but equipment costs decreased I'd really get behind that. considering logis are the most overpriced suits in the game? Hmmmm, let me think... Ummm, Sure! There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!